EPT[G]Zerg vs Terran A roach opener - Page 3
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Bertibums
3 Posts
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Linz
Belgium151 Posts
Edit: and as it seems, I can't download the 3 replay pack  | ||
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote: Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee  .Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
On January 27 2012 11:47 blade55555 wrote: Actually the 4 queen style is where I got this idea. I remember watching MVP vs Nestea on daybreak and nestea did 4 queens no gas. I just adjusted it to 3 queens (I feel you don't need 2 extra queens for creep spreading) and added the roach warren. The reason I like 4 queens over 3, is both for serious creep spread (I like to creep all of my main for vision, and then send that tumor off the back cliff), but also for extra transfusion. In the same way that protoss players get sentries early to build up energy, I find it really valuable to have 3-4 transfusions ready to go, while not missing any injects. I may start mixing in this roach opening on some maps though.. especially rocks maps. | ||
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Tsubbi
Germany7997 Posts
Your approach is way more defensive than the ones i tried though. From the first look at the build it seems like if the terran reads your build well and doesn't invest into defense at all you'd struggle against various 9-10 min pushes with marine medivac + either tank or marauder, but i'm sure gonna try out your build as well and see how it plays out. | ||
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TheKerwin
United States21 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
Yes it can be a decent build against reactor hellion, but even then they are supposed to have a marauder in a bunker and ~6 hellions will keep you at home while they take a fast 3rd. Pushing creep and spines forward and getting mutalisks is still the best way to deal with this. While roaches can get your creep and 3rd base a bit faster, they leave you very defenseless against any quick timing push. I think if you want to play like this it would be better to go for roach/baneling aggression and secure a third behind that, as it will put the terran on the defensive and potentially kill them, meanwhile you are safe to drone up, take a third, and spread creep. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On January 27 2012 22:27 oOOoOphidian wrote: Late ling speed and no baneling nest along with a sizeable investment in roaches makes this very vulnerable to any 1 rax FE -> bio builds, or even 1 base all-ins like 2 tank pushes. Yes it can be a decent build against reactor hellion, but even then they are supposed to have a marauder in a bunker and ~6 hellions will keep you at home while they take a fast 3rd. Pushing creep and spines forward and getting mutalisks is still the best way to deal with this. While roaches can get your creep and 3rd base a bit faster, they leave you very defenseless against any quick timing push. I think if you want to play like this it would be better to go for roach/baneling aggression and secure a third behind that, as it will put the terran on the defensive and potentially kill them, meanwhile you are safe to drone up, take a third, and spread creep. well the idea here is precisely to not put pressure with roaches, so I don't get the point about marauders and bunkers... against 1 rax expand, I feel it's ok as you will expand too. as far as 1 base all ins are concerned, it's up to scouting and adapting in time, but with roach tech think u can deal with almost any 1 base all in correctly, with zergling and queen support... | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
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copacetic
56 Posts
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong. | ||
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Pharnax
Denmark42 Posts
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong. Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately. | ||
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copacetic
56 Posts
On January 28 2012 00:22 Tobberoth wrote: Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately. lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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copacetic
56 Posts
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
. the build whole idea feels a lot like i've been doing for a while. (like lings don't give you map control but roaches do, and in the same way taking a third.) So id like to know if you've tried something like mine and evolved into your build and for which reasons. In all, critique mine or somehow convince me that yours is in general, a better idea.I feel you could cut some corners like i've been doing. I'm refering to this part: as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around) 24-25 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later) Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later) 2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50 6:10-6:30 - roach warren I always drone scout, so in case of two rax or any early aggresion i adapt to invest in safety, but i see you make a lot of stuff as standard instead of reactively. But this is the build i do for example against a reactor hellion (and adapt if is into expand or allin). Differences. - When pool finishes, just 1 set of lings and double queen. One to chase the scout and then get into the tower in path to his base. The other to check his ramp for a second time (first was the scouting drone) and then hide behind his natural's minerals to spot for expansion. No spines and no third queen just yet, just drone. Nothing can surprise you at this point except a marine/scv allin, which is cheeze and will not discuss, but blindly defending for it is a waste. - While queens build, keep droning and drone as larvae allows, eventually you have 200 in the bank and can afford the roach den and gas. I noticed that this timming lets you continually make drones, and get 2 roaches just as the den pops, which also times pretty nicely with the fastest 2 hellions that are about to arrive. Keep droning and add roaches up to 6 as gas allows. The second 2 roaches are done around the time the hellion count is 4 (they usually stop making them at that). Its amazing how much you can drone this way, as roaches are much more larvae efficient than lings. - On 6 roaches (number adjusted to hellions comming into the field), you can spare 2 to take watch towers and basically keep them forever. No way a push will come that you will not see. They take forever for hellions to kill them, and say in metalopolis, can't even kite them cause they need vision to attack the roach. And even if they are fancy and have apm to spare, i send another roach just as he begins killing the first one, and replace it with another. - unless he is making a lot of hellions, forcing more roaches, as soon as you get 100 gas, make speed(This is important for early pushes.), next gas lair. - On maps with easy 3rds like metal, i take 3rd really quick, like when you send the 2 roaches to the towers. Else i macrohatch and start killing rocks with the roaches. As soon as i get 300 in the bank while droning, the hatch goes down. When i put it down, i make the 3rd queen, which will be able to creep once and move to the third with almost mana to inject. From here it varies a lot, but i usually change to mutas while scouting a lot to check wether i need to pump a lot of units to stop a push and get into midgame with (hopefully) and advantage. And as lair is done i overseer sucide mission check for marinetank or mech. The core idea is that you get map control, are pretty much immune to the earliest harrassments (reaper/hellions) and are incredibly rich in larvae. So if you play your scouting cards right, at any time you can EXPLODE in drones, or in army. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
it says: the launch of this game makes reference to mod or map dependencies which are no longer available. so i guess it doesn't work on eu server. no biggie, other 3 worked fine. | ||
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Catgroove
Sweden67 Posts
On January 28 2012 00:35 copacetic wrote: lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark. So what you're saying is you can verify they expand (and not marauder hellion allin) behind hellions before they even are out, every game? God you must be good. | ||
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rustypipe
Canada206 Posts
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ShinyGerbil
Canada519 Posts
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