Hi all me again and writing another guide but this time for zerg vs terran. I have made some adjustments to my play and made a more solid opening. This guide isn't going to go into detail to much about the mid/late game you can look at my other zvt guide for that.
Another thing to note, all the replays are from the korean server and I believe all 3 games are pretty good games to show the beginning and for those curious my transition into mid/late game.
For those curious on my other guides you can locate them here:
Now I am going to explain the point of the build and why I do this. For starters it always irritates me how zerg players in general, not just the average zerg but even top tier zergs always stick to ling in the early game and let the terran have early game map control. They do nothing to stop it, except sometimes try to get a ling surround praying their opponent isn't paying attention to their hellions.
I find many problems with this method and I'll tell you what I hate about the method of just lings.
No map control, you are relying on your opponent to make a mistake to hopefully get it back with just lings. That to me is just not that good to rely on your opponent making a mistake and thus you get map control back.
Your third is heavily delayed, you can not get a third against an opponent who doesn't let you kill his hellions until mutalisks come into play or whatever your tier 2 tech you are doing (infestors being the other tech). So while you wait for that your third isn't going to be started until about 10 minutes into the game. I feel this is not the best thing because thats a long time on 2 base vs 2 base.
Also of course you can't spread your creep.
Now it also annoys me to no end that if a zerg decides to go roach play they feel they have to commit to them. Everytime I see a top zerg go roaches its not just to get map control back they always commit to them. They get upgrades to them, and they make a ton of them. I feel this is a very bad method and you shouldn't be doing this (unless he is going mech of course or he's being super greedy and you think you can bust him with a roach/ling/baneling attack).
But this is just going every zerg I have ever watched on stream when they open roaches they heavily commit. I don't know why they feel they have to but I think its not a good idea unless of course reasons I said before you are facing mech or he's being super greedy and you want to try to bust.
So that brings me to my roach build. You don't make many, you literally just get a few roaches to push his hellions back, maintain map control and take a faster third. You can do this without it hurting your economy or setting you back or even dying to a 2 base timing.
Early roaches also if you are completely not ready for a push by the terran or he's doing some funky thing you can make more roaches if you need it. They are a great early game unit for defensive purposes and don't take a ton of larva like early game lings do so you can get drones out if you are forced to make a few more roaches.
So now to the build order!
--------Build order--------
9 - overlord 10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later) 15 - hatchery 14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well) 16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around) soon as both queens finish make 2 more start 1 gas right as soon as you start your 3rd and 4'th queen 5:30-5:45 - third base 5:45-6:15 - roach warren 5:30-5:40 - first evo chamber once third starts - take 2nd and third gas as soon as roach warren finishes make roaches if he has made hellions, or wait until he pushes out if he tries a silly early game aggression get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches Second evo chamber after ling speed start 1/1 melee/carapace go lair on next 100 gas
Due to the patch with the queen range buff the spine crawler is no longer necessary. Just open up 4 queens, still get the roach warren, but you don't need to rush roaches out or anything like you did before.
So now to explain why I do some of the things I do.
The 10 drone scout is to see if the terran opponent is either going a gas build or 2 rax. If I see a 2 rax I will make my pool at either 14 or 15. If I see gas I will always go 16-17 pool. If they go gas first they really can't punish you for it unless you let their 1-2 marines from 1 rax do more damage then it should.
4 queens are great, but roaches still have their uses. You still want to control the watch towers which you will want to do by taking it away from the hellions by making a couple roaches. There are also a lot of zergs skipping roaches now and then dying to 8+ hellions, this again hard counters that.
You should also be getting 1/1 before lair whether you are going mutalisks or infestors, upgrades are very important in zvt especially with the popularity of double ebay, if you skimp on upgrades by the time you have 1/1 he will have 2/2 with 3/3 on the way and unless you are far ahead you are going to lose.
Now with roaches do NOT get roach speed, waste of money and do not get +1 ranged again waste of money.
If you have any questions on these I will of course answer .
--------The advantages--------
So what are some advantages to this build?
Faster third which is a better economy Good defensive unit for early game portions.
map control. To put more on this you will know if your opponent is moving out. Have you seen the games where zerg loses to an attack they had no idea was coming? Lets take for example Puma vs Idra last bo5 they played. Puma with hellions had complete map control and Idra had no idea what he was doing. Puma does a crazy strong push that Idra did not see coming until it was at the edge of his creep that could not be spread due to the hellions.
With the roaches this will not happen to you (will it shouldn't unless you are being way passive with them or something). You should always know when a push is coming out and not be like "oh shit he's at the edge of my creep with a huge army and I just droned gg". I can't emphasize how important I think this is with early roach play.
--------The disadvantages--------
Slower lair which means slower mutalisks (or infestors if that's what you like). Slower ling speed (not a big deal at all but this might scare some people you really don't need ling speed early if you have roaches)
Not really sure of any other disadvantages I can think of at the moment but those are the 2 that pop off in my head.
--------Replays--------
All these replays are from the korean server. These terrans were pretty good and this shows some nice macro games as well as the opening. There will be 3 replays.
Any questions, comments, concerns please feel free to post them I do reply to every question I can. Also any tips you want me to add or something feel free to suggest!
How do you feel this would hold up to the marauder hellion timing (1 base or 2 base)?. Do you reckon it might be enough to fall to that?
Its actually not bad at all to hold it. You have 1-2 spines, then can make a ton of roaches/lings should hold no problem. one of the replays shows this(binski light some guy I played no idea who he is). You will see me take a third, drone and still hold his push while being greedy while holding it.
How do you handle the 10 min marine/tank push? just roll over it with roach/ling?
Roach/ling/bling. I don't have to many roaches like I said before I don't feel you need it for the most part. You should be able to roll over it with the roaches you have made (shouldn't make more then original) and the ling/baneling. If you do what I do and flank (I use 2 control groups 1 half at my natural, the other half in a good position to where I can come from the back and front of the terran to crush the push).
what do you tend to do on Tal'Darim? (or a map with harder to take third
I still open roaches but I will go lair faster then normal and not take the third as fast until I either break down the rocks or I"ll take the further away third. Its a bit harder to get a fast third and have it be safe because of the possibility of drop play it would be hard to take the third in the spot closest to your main and defend it + your main + natural without him abusing the lack of mutalisks at the time and thus going up and down the cliff to the natural, main, etc. Its possible but I personally don't do it just because drops become way stronger until mutalisks come out.
Terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
After testing if the terran player is doing a reactor hellion expand into cloaked banshee your third base should be done before cloak is finished. I looked at some replays and looked at timing and cloak didn't come for a certain period of time so that my third was finished before it and thus could get spore crawlers down and will be done/almost done by the time the cloak finishes and is at the third.
Obviously if he is doing 1 base cloak banshee you should not even be taking a third because you know he's on one base whether or not you see what 1 base build he is doing taking a third can be super risky.
Won't this build be countered by fast 3 CC by the terran?
The short answer is no.
You should know if he takes the third to fast. If he is taking a third super greedy because of your fast third you can easily just mass a ton of roaches + ling/bane and bust him. Notice you have your roach warren out, you should have a baneling nest and you should have lair by the time he takes that third. His tank count will be low to where you can break him. You do have to notice this fast, if you see his third a minute or 2 after he took it then it is probably to late for you to change tactics and go roachl/ing/bling bust. So far against terrans who have done the fast 3CC and take the third very fast against this build I have busted them and am 3-0 with it so far int erms of busting them when I see them take a fast third.
At the risk of doing exactly that I will ask: how would this vary if you scouted 2 rax no gas? You mentioned the spawning pool timing - any other change? Do you still get the roaches?
If you see a 2 rax you should not rush roaches. There is no need for it obviously. A lot of terrans I play still get hellions after the 2 rax so I still get roaches even if they dont' go hellions because I want to get map control back. I delay roaches a decent amount as again no rush and you dont' want to set yourself behind. So I get a roach warren eventually and take map control back, take the third and what not still but it is a little delayed of course. If I took a decent amount of damage by losing drones I will void the roach warren all together and go 2 base muta/ling/bane.
I agree 100% with this guide and especially the introduction part. Each time I see a zerg (even a GSL zerg) make early roaches to defend hellions I'm glad, then 100% of the time they don't use it to defend hellions, they push with their roaches. It works or not, it's not the point. But the tech is not expensive, the roaches are not expensive, so why I never understood why they just didn't make 4-8 roaches just to be safe and take their 3rd before mutas. And your introduction explains it perfectly, it's either pray for a hellion ling surround, make roaches but allin with them, or wait 10 minutes for mutas to take a 3rd. Those 3 options makes no sense (well, the allin can make sense but it's not a stable way to play). Well, I just paraphrased your intro, let's just say I strongly endorse this OP :p
Mm, I like the idea of roaches to push back the early reactorhellions. It has always seemed to me that trying to get a surround with lings is fairly luck-based, and while most terran players don't pay that much attention to them for now, that may change in future. This seems like a far more reliable method of getting the third up indeed.
How do you feel this would hold up to the marauder hellion timing (1 base or 2 base)? A few early roaches will still harm your economy slightly, no matter what. Do you reckon it might be enough to fall to that?
On January 27 2012 09:37 heha wrote: Mm, I like the idea of roaches to push back the early reactorhellions. It has always seemed to me that trying to get a surround with lings is fairly luck-based, and while most terran players don't pay that much attention to them for now, that may change in future. This seems like a far more reliable method of getting the third up indeed.
How do you feel this would hold up to the marauder hellion timing (1 base or 2 base)? A few early roaches will still harm your economy slightly, no matter what. Do you reckon it might be enough to fall to that?
Its actually not bad at all to hold it. You have 2 spines, then can make a ton of roaches/lings should hold no problem. Actually I"ll upload a replay of someone doing a marauder/hellion all in vs me. (binski light). You will see me take a third, drone and still hold his push while being greedy while holding it.
Also while it "harms" your economy I guess its still better then making 20 lings which are larva inefficient and getting a way faster third .
Very nice guide, thanks blade !! Just a question about the Ling Speed: To catch up the later Lair, wouldnt it make more sense to grab the speed after the Lair or is the time difference too big between the accumalation of another 100gas ?
On January 27 2012 09:45 joeyBanana wrote: Very nice guide, thanks blade !! Just a question about the Ling Speed: To catch up the later Lair, wouldnt it make more sense to grab the speed after the Lair or is the time difference too big between the accumalation of another 100gas ?
My main concern with getting ling speed after starting lair is it might not finish until to late. With doing it before lair my ling speed always finishes before that timing that they do on the korean server anyway. Not really much earlier of a timing you can do that wouldn't get rolled .
As a terran player I have mixed feelings about these builds, I feel like they are basically a blind counter to hellion openings, which its true, is a pretty safe guess. I guess what I am interested in is how much economy you feel you lose when you open with roaches. As I see these roach openings (usually more of the aggressive 7ish roach[ sort) more often, I have to decide how I want to adjust to the metgame.
One question for you: I've been doing a late gas, 4queen opening in ZvT that works great -- Defend with 0 lings, basically, and power drones really hard. The drawback of the build is that you pretty much have to build your 3rd hatchery in-base as a macro hatch(which isn't THAT bad, i like mass ling builds). But as you say, with no gas and just lings its hard to assert map control.
I don't think this build can afford that 4th queen though, at least not at the standard early-ish timing. But, I have reservations about using gas on anything but my main plan (which is probably ling speed, +1 carapace, lair, or some such). My question is, Do you feel that buying roaches makes you extra vulnerable to anything in particular(Since you delay your tech)? For example, hellion->Banshees or some kind of dropship-elevator strat?
Hellion runbys and annoying elevator strats are what made me go for the spanishiwa build in the first place, 4 queens wreck a dropship pretty quick, and I don't like using simcity to block off my natural because after the early game, having a choke there is sort of shitty.
On January 27 2012 11:13 darkscream wrote: Yay, it's my favorite guide maker!
One question for you: I've been doing a late gas, 4queen opening in ZvT that works great -- Defend with 0 lings, basically, and power drones really hard. The drawback of the build is that you pretty much have to build your 3rd hatchery in-base as a macro hatch(which isn't THAT bad, i like mass ling builds). But as you say, with no gas and just lings its hard to assert map control.
I don't think this build can afford that 4th queen though, at least not at the standard early-ish timing. But, I have reservations about using gas on anything but my main plan (which is probably ling speed, +1 carapace, lair, or some such). My question is, Do you feel that buying roaches makes you extra vulnerable to anything in particular(Since you delay your tech)? For example, hellion->Banshees or some kind of dropship-elevator strat?
Hellion runbys and annoying elevator strats are what made me go for the spanishiwa build in the first place, 4 queens wreck a dropship pretty quick, and I don't like using simcity to block off my natural because after the early game, having a choke there is sort of shitty.
Actually the 4 queen style is where I got this idea. I remember watching MVP vs Nestea on daybreak and nestea did 4 queens no gas. I just adjusted it to 3 queens (I feel you don't need 2 extra queens for creep spreading) and added the roach warren.
I do sim city and idk I don't have problems with it, as you'll see (if you watch the replays) I do sim city and later in the game it doesn't cause any problems for my units or anything.
You should sacrifice an overlord to see (and check to see if he took his expansion) to really know. I don't feel any more vulnerable to banshee's with 3 queens then 4. The main problem would be cloak which is why its essential to be ready to plop down a Spore if you feel he is doing a banshee build. Normally they don't hold back banshee's so you should be fine with 3 queens vs 1 banshee no problem (even 2 if you have a transfuse).
If I do see banshee's (cloak or not) I will make another queen out of one of my hatcheries and place a spore in main/natural just in case. But in short no I don't feel vulnerable to banshee's with 3 queens.
On January 27 2012 11:36 Faulteh wrote: How do you handle the 10 min marine/tank push? just roll over it with roach/ling?
Roach/ling/bling. I don't have to many roaches like I said before I don't feel you need it for the most part. You should be able to roll over it with the roaches you have made (shouldn't make more then original) and the ling/baneling. If you do what I do and flank (I use 2 control groups 1 half at my natural, the other half in a good position to where I can come from the back and front of the terran to crush the push).
Is the spine(s) because you intend not to have roaches out in time for hellions? Cause roaches + spines seem a bit overkill for the usual 4-6 hellions.
On January 27 2012 11:56 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Is the spine(s) because you intend not to have roaches out in time for hellions? Cause roaches + spines seem a bit overkill for the usual 4-6 hellions.
Either way, thx for the guide. Lovin' it!
Thats exactly it. I don't get roaches super early as that hurts the economy to much. From what I have done from replay watching with this version of roaches I maintain a 10-15 harvester lead until I have to stop droning or whatever. My previous way of when I did roaches I would only be ahead by 5 harvesters I think? Which isn't that great.
That is why I delay my gas till 5:15 or so depending on if I do 2 spines or 1 as I still get a lot of drones out
against the 2 base terran push with 3 tanks+marines, would u defend this by producing more roaches or would you ignore roaches completely and defend this push with ling bane?, also on a map like shattered temple how do u take a third with rocks blocking the expansions? do u use your spines to atk the back rocks or do u use your roaches.
On January 27 2012 13:16 Kisezik wrote: against the 2 base terran push with 3 tanks+marines, would u defend this by producing more roaches or would you ignore roaches completely and defend this push with ling bane?, also on a map like shattered temple how do u take a third with rocks blocking the expansions? do u use your spines to atk the back rocks or do u use your roaches.
I do ling/bane I do not make any more roaches unless I feel I need them. On shattered eh sometimes i'll take down the rocks but I go lair a little faster and get mutalisks a bit faster then usual just because you have to kill rocks and far bases are hard to take early on. Especially on korea as terrans drop a ton early xD
I've been doing a variant of this for a while. Basically, I get roach a bit sooner and harass/hit with them. It forces hellions to back and sometime force bunkers + cancel expo + scv/rine kill. I get around 5 while massing drones like crazy behind.
Also, I've come to like fighting with roaches in the begin/mid game. Even late game with broodlord, I still have roach to support.
I haven't watched the replays yet, so forgive me if this question is answered by one of them, but what do you tend to do on Tal'Darim? Do you take your usual fourth (if you're in the 11/12 o'clock position, the base to your right at 12 o'clock) as your third when you start pushing back against hellions, or do you try to break down the rocks at your usual third?
On January 27 2012 16:47 Holzmann wrote: I haven't watched the replays yet, so forgive me if this question is answered by one of them, but what do you tend to do on Tal'Darim? Do you take your usual fourth (if you're in the 11/12 o'clock position, the base to your right at 12 o'clock) as your third when you start pushing back against hellions, or do you try to break down the rocks at your usual third?
On a map with a hard to take third I go lair a little bit faster and get muta's a bit quicker but take down rocks to get that third but won't be as fast as other maps sadly :/.
Didn't a lot of Zerg used to do this a while back? Make Roaches to deny Hellions and then go back into doing whatever they were doing. Sheth was one of the first to do this too I think.
Anyway, great guide. Informational and to the point! :D
This looks very strong on maps like Antiga where you can push your creep pretty far with just a small group of roaches, and there aren't places to run by
On January 27 2012 17:01 K3Nyy wrote: Didn't a lot of Zerg used to do this a while back? Make Roaches to deny Hellions and then go back into doing whatever they were doing. Sheth was one of the first to do this too I think.
Anyway, great guide. Informational and to the point! :D
Every zerg I have ever seen (sheth included) when they went roaches they commited to them. They didn't just make a few they madea ton as if they had to. I have yet to see other zergs do a few roaches just to get map control back and what not.
The obvious drawback of this tactic is the much later lair and thus much later mutas... how much later will your mutas hit the terran base on average? Reason I'm wondering is because with standard gas around 17-23 supply, your mutas will generally hit the terran base by just over 10 minutes, when most terrans wont have turrets and will just have picked their tech path, giving a great scouting advantage and good potential to do damage. Will this build delay mutas too much to get that information in time?
what about getting earlier roaches to skip the spines? When i play vs terra i get a gas @ about 17 and a 24 roachwarren and only build about 4 roaches, with them i'm save vs hellions/reapers and early pushes are easy holdable with roach/ling and i'm able to get a earlier third like you. (diamondlevel)
Could that be that if terra sees spines and roaches, that knows he is very save and instantly adds a cc?
yeah, I have been doing a similar build for a while (at low master level), and I feel it's pretty convenient! especially I like the macro variation of roaches opening.
My main difference is I would stick to tier one units for a much longer time, to get a better eco (and later tech). especially, I would be doing double upgrades before going for lair, and defending any early pushes with mass lings. So I stay on one gas, but get pretty quickly a 4 hatches / 4queens structure. I would be really interested that you tell me what you think about it blade thanks!
here would be my bo 16 hatch 17 pool (when gas scouted) @100% pool : take gas, make two queens. @100% extractor: throw down roach warren. (it should be around 27 food) make four roaches (from 36 to 44 food). make speed @ 100 gas
From then, 1. drones up to 60. That will give you 3 saturated mineral lines. then make only lings. The idea is to defend any early push with mass lings only, which I feel is really easy to do (I mean really easy). 2. make macro hatch and 2 more queens when accumulating minerals. 3. stay on one gas, throw down two evolution chambers, and +1 melee / +1 carapace with upgrades asap. and then only make lair. When starting lair, take two more gases, so that you can make bnest and speebanes, and +2/+2 upgrades quickly.Then you can transition into either mutas or infestors depending on his playstyle.
btw, why putting a spine early? I never really feel the necessity to do so if you have a good timing with roach warren.
On January 27 2012 17:44 enykie wrote: what about getting earlier roaches to skip the spines? When i play vs terra i get a gas @ about 17 and a 24 roachwarren and only build about 4 roaches, with them i'm save vs hellions/reapers and early pushes are easy holdable with roach/ling and i'm able to get a earlier third like you. (diamondlevel)
Could that be that if terra sees spines and roaches, that knows he is very save and instantly adds a cc?
Your point about terran feeling safe if seeing both spines and roaches sounds very reasonable in my opinion. That said, 17 gas into 24 roach warren has to be a massive hit on economy... taking gas at 17 alone delays your droning quite a bit.
On January 27 2012 17:34 Tobberoth wrote: The obvious drawback of this tactic is the much later lair and thus much later mutas... how much later will your mutas hit the terran base on average? Reason I'm wondering is because with standard gas around 17-23 supply, your mutas will generally hit the terran base by just over 10 minutes, when most terrans wont have turrets and will just have picked their tech path, giving a great scouting advantage and good potential to do damage. Will this build delay mutas too much to get that information in time?
I don't know what terran players you play but every terran I play has turrets up by 10 minutes 99% of the time. You shouldn't go muta as fast as possible and feel you have to do damage because as you get higher up (I don't know what rank you are or who you practice with) you will see most terrans have turrets by 10 minutes. I am not exageratting when 99% of the terrans I play have turrets up unless they went for an all in to try to kill me before Muta.
On January 27 2012 17:44 enykie wrote: what about getting earlier roaches to skip the spines? When i play vs terra i get a gas @ about 17 and a 24 roachwarren and only build about 4 roaches, with them i'm save vs hellions/reapers and early pushes are easy holdable with roach/ling and i'm able to get a earlier third like you. (diamondlevel)
Could that be that if terra sees spines and roaches, that knows he is very save and instantly adds a cc?
It hurts your economy to much. I used to do something similar but when I analyzed my replays when I did that I found I would only have a 5 drone lead at most vs a terran who was prepared and didn't let me do a ton of damage. so I made this varation where I will almos talways be 10-15 drones ahead (until Muta come out and they catch up but that early game drone lead is pretty important).
I'm not sure what terrans think when they see roaches after spines. I know some I play make bunkers but other then that most should have their CC's already finished by the time your roaches come into play.
On January 27 2012 17:54 Macpo wrote: yeah, I have been doing a similar build for a while (at low master level), and I feel it's pretty convenient! especially I like the macro variation of roaches opening.
My main difference is I would stick to tier one units for a much longer time, to get a better eco (and later tech). especially, I would be doing double upgrades before going for lair, and defending any early pushes with mass lings. So I stay on one gas, but get pretty quickly a 4 hatches / 4queens structure. I would be really interested that you tell me what you think about it blade thanks!
here would be my bo 16 hatch 17 pool (when gas scouted) @100% pool : take gas, make two queens. @100% extractor: throw down roach warren. make four roaches (from 36 to 44 food). make speed @ 100 gas
From then, 1. drones up to 60. That will give you 3 saturated mineral lines. then make only lings. The idea is to defend any early push with mass lings only, which I feel is really easy to do (I mean really easy). 2. make macro hatch and 2 more queens when accumulating minerals. 3. stay on one gas, throw down two evolution chambers, and +1 melee / +1 carapace with upgrades asap. and then only make lair. When starting lair, take two more gases, so that you can make bnest and speebanes, and +2/+2 upgrades quickly.Then you can transition into either mutas or infestors depending on his playstyle.
btw, why putting a spine early? I never really feel the necessity to do so if you have a good timing with roach warren.
Thanks!
I don't really like your build just because I don't like staying tier one that long especially with only lings no banelings.
I got this varation idea from Nestea when he played MVP on daybreak. I liked how he delayed gas but he got 4 queens then gas and sim city. That's where I got the idea to make it 3 and then make a roach warren.
With this build roaches dont' come fast enough for the first 2-4 hellions. You will die if you skip the spine if you do my varation. I don't like getting roaches super super early anymore because from looking at replays it can hurt the economy to much and if you are staying on tier 1 for so long to get 60 drones not my style of play I just never liked it (like the ling/infestor style I was never a fan and never will be I feel its so abusable tbh ).
I mean your build seems fine am I correct in assuming that you enjoy the ling/infestor style?
I've played around with this some, and it definitely is strong. However, these are some questions/answers I have about using this build:
1) Especially on maps with close air, do you like using this build into muta? I feel that delaying the lair at all versus close air to be super worrying because people are super fucking annoying with early drops (especially lately). By delaying your muta tech it seems you're sacrificing a bit of that early map control anyway because you need to be close to home in case he runs 2 medivacs into your base. The creep is definitively and advantage, but do you feel you'd rather do this build instead of 2 base 3 hatch muta in these positions, especially considering how strong 2 base muta is on close air?
2) I like super early burrow. Do you feel it fits well in with this playstyle? I don't have too much experience with roach openings, so spending extra gas and having a delayed lair is sort of foreign to me. Do you feel like you need that gas going elsewhere, or is investing the 100 safe at that time?
3) Macro Hatch. When do you take yours and how do you deal with the lack of that early larvae? Traditional 3 hatch 2 base build seem to give you a few more larvae because of when you take the macro hatch (or a lot, depending on how fast you take your own 4th hatch), how does this effect your play from standard play?
4) How do you deal with non-standard early pressures? Bane speed seems to hege it pretty close with a standard 2 base tank push, but how do you deal with earlier tank/marine pressures with such late bane speed/mutas?
That's all I have for now. I'm going to try this out some more on ladder tommorrow, I haven't really used it much for a few months and a lot has changed since then, so I'm hoping for some fun games!
On January 27 2012 18:04 Arisen wrote: I've played around with this some, and it definitely is strong. However, these are some questions/answers I have about using this build:
1) Especially on maps with close air, do you like using this build into muta? I feel that delaying the lair at all versus close air to be super worrying because people are super fucking annoying with early drops (especially lately). By delaying your muta tech it seems you're sacrificing a bit of that early map control anyway because you need to be close to home in case he runs 2 medivacs into your base. The creep is definitively and advantage, but do you feel you'd rather do this build instead of 2 base 3 hatch muta in these positions, especially considering how strong 2 base muta is on close air?
2) I like super early burrow. Do you feel it fits well in with this playstyle? I don't have too much experience with roach openings, so spending extra gas and having a delayed lair is sort of foreign to me. Do you feel like you need that gas going elsewhere, or is investing the 100 safe at that time?
3) Macro Hatch. When do you take yours and how do you deal with the lack of that early larvae? Traditional 3 hatch 2 base build seem to give you a few more larvae because of when you take the macro hatch (or a lot, depending on how fast you take your own 4th hatch), how does this effect your play from standard play?
4) How do you deal with non-standard early pressures? Bane speed seems to hege it pretty close with a standard 2 base tank push, but how do you deal with earlier tank/marine pressures with such late bane speed/mutas?
That's all I have for now. I'm going to try this out some more on ladder tommorrow, I haven't really used it much for a few months and a lot has changed since then, so I'm hoping for some fun games!
I do this build as my main zvt build regardless of positions. I use 2 control groups for my army and have no problem dealing with drops at all. You are definitely vulnerable but you should be able to handle it easy unless you are being super super greedy or something xD. I do go into muta, I find muta play far superior to infestor play (just my opinion I feel there are many weaknesses to infestor play no muta and dislike the style).
I see no problem with super early burrow. I have been finally getting burrow almost every game lately and I like to get that almost as soon as lair finishes or right after I get some mutalisks out. I do want to use Burrowed banelings more and I do enjoy putting a ling at every expansion he'll take and burrow it under there .
for the Macro hatch I get mine when I feel I have the extra minerals and can still afford 8 or so mutalisks. I don't ever really feel like I have a lack of larva most of the time but I do need to place a macro hatch earlier.
I just deal with the standard 2 base push with ling/bane flanks (and the initial roaches I make). I don't remember if they do it at all in the 3 replays I uploaded (will 4 if you want to see a highly aggressive 1 base all in vs my style ). But i will be releasing a replay pack of all my korean replays and you can anaylyze my zvt this opening more if the 4 in the OP don't satisfy you.
If a terran does a non standard push then I will add more roaches if necessary. Since I will see it coming before he's very far I will know if I need to add more roaches or if I can hold it with ling/bane. If I do not think I can I will add in more roaches to hold off that crazy push :D.
On January 27 2012 17:54 Macpo wrote: yeah, I have been doing a similar build for a while (at low master level), and I feel it's pretty convenient! especially I like the macro variation of roaches opening.
My main difference is I would stick to tier one units for a much longer time, to get a better eco (and later tech). especially, I would be doing double upgrades before going for lair, and defending any early pushes with mass lings. So I stay on one gas, but get pretty quickly a 4 hatches / 4queens structure. I would be really interested that you tell me what you think about it blade thanks!
here would be my bo 16 hatch 17 pool (when gas scouted) @100% pool : take gas, make two queens. @100% extractor: throw down roach warren. make four roaches (from 36 to 44 food). make speed @ 100 gas
From then, 1. drones up to 60. That will give you 3 saturated mineral lines. then make only lings. The idea is to defend any early push with mass lings only, which I feel is really easy to do (I mean really easy). 2. make macro hatch and 2 more queens when accumulating minerals. 3. stay on one gas, throw down two evolution chambers, and +1 melee / +1 carapace with upgrades asap. and then only make lair. When starting lair, take two more gases, so that you can make bnest and speebanes, and +2/+2 upgrades quickly.Then you can transition into either mutas or infestors depending on his playstyle.
btw, why putting a spine early? I never really feel the necessity to do so if you have a good timing with roach warren.
Thanks!
I don't really like your build just because I don't like staying tier one that long especially with only lings no banelings.
I got this varation idea from Nestea when he played MVP on daybreak. I liked how he delayed gas but he got 4 queens then gas and sim city. That's where I got the idea to make it 3 and then make a roach warren.
With this build roaches dont' come fast enough for the first 2-4 hellions. You will die if you skip the spine if you do my varation. I don't like getting roaches super super early anymore because from looking at replays it can hurt the economy to much and if you are staying on tier 1 for so long to get 60 drones not my style of play I just never liked it (like the ling/infestor style I was never a fan and never will be I feel its so abusable tbh ).
I mean your build seems fine am I correct in assuming that you enjoy the ling/infestor style?
Thanks for the answer! Well I have to admit that the difficulty is in multiple drop strategies, so what I like to do is generally to make like 10 or 12 mutas to defend drop harass and then switching to infestors... while expanding a lot, like taking quick 4th / 5th even 6th base (being generous on spines, as this is a mineral heavy strat anyway), to be able to pump lots of lings and punish defensive terrans... But I have to insist on the fact that defending early bio/ or bio/tank push in the beginning with mass lings is really an easy 1A click operation (at least at my level of course!) and it gives you very often a decisive advantage over the course of the game... anyway thanks for sharing
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
i dont think T.O.P is talking about 1 base cloak banshee, terrans can go reactor hellion expand into starport cloak banshee to deny the zergs third while taking a fast third themselves. This kinda forces you to get mutas out, so you cant really take a third anyway.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
How do you see them, do you have some form of overlord saccing for this? Obviously starting lair once you see cloaked banshees will be too late, so I'm assuming you have some reasonably safe way to scout this?
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
How do you see them, do you have some form of overlord saccing for this? Obviously starting lair once you see cloaked banshees will be too late, so I'm assuming you have some reasonably safe way to scout this?
Well sacrificing an overlord at 5:30 is good to do in zvt. Also I do make an evo chamber just incase of banshee's. I try to sacrifice an overlord and if I see nothing and don't see an expansion I will sometimes blindly prepare for cloaked banshee (tbh you kind of have to blindly prepare for whatever he is doing if off one base.).
On January 27 2012 18:29 Kisezik wrote: i dont think T.O.P is talking about 1 base cloak banshee, terrans can go reactor hellion expand into starport cloak banshee to deny the zergs third while taking a fast third themselves. This kinda forces you to get mutas out, so you cant really take a third anyway.
Yes its possible I would need to do testing on that. I haven't faced an expansion into cloaked banshee since like... at minimum 5 months last time I faced someone doing that. Obviously if I was in a tournament I would not do this build every single game as then they could do exactly that. I mean just thinking about it seems cloaked banshee's wouldn't hit for a decent time anyway if he gets an expansion off of reactor hellion. Definitely going to need to see the timings of that and see how I would deal with it if they do that. I do thank you two for mentioning it, while I never face it it is always something to account for ^^.
I am going to have to have a couple of my terran friends do that so I can see the timing of the cloaked banshee and whether it hits before my third would finish or not. Something to test and see!
On January 27 2012 10:58 statikg wrote: As a terran player I have mixed feelings about these builds, I feel like they are basically a blind counter to hellion openings, which its true, is a pretty safe guess. I guess what I am interested in is how much economy you feel you lose when you open with roaches. As I see these roach openings (usually more of the aggressive 7ish roach[ sort) more often, I have to decide how I want to adjust to the metgame.
Perhaps you jumped to conclusions somewhat without reading closely?
6:10-6:30 - roach warren as soon as it finishes make 4-5 roaches more if necessary
The zerg is fast expanding and scouting - a roach warren placed at 6 minutes is in no way "blind", and it is late enough to be economically comfortable. Furthermore, we are only going to make roaches if necessary. This isn't a blind cheese "cross-your-fingers-and-hope-he-went-helions" build, rather it's a strong way to play if you see him going helions so that you are not trapped in your base and can get your third.
funny, this kind of opener is just what i was playing with in my mind after being hellion-f'ed up on TDAltar once again... thanks for that, gonna try it! much appreciated!
How do you deal with the 16 marine drop with this style? Do you have banelings or something? Because roaches melt pretty hard to stimmed marines + medivacs, and so do lings I feel.
Edit: and as it seems, I can't download the 3 replay pack
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Actually the 4 queen style is where I got this idea. I remember watching MVP vs Nestea on daybreak and nestea did 4 queens no gas. I just adjusted it to 3 queens (I feel you don't need 2 extra queens for creep spreading) and added the roach warren.
The reason I like 4 queens over 3, is both for serious creep spread (I like to creep all of my main for vision, and then send that tumor off the back cliff), but also for extra transfusion. In the same way that protoss players get sentries early to build up energy, I find it really valuable to have 3-4 transfusions ready to go, while not missing any injects.
I may start mixing in this roach opening on some maps though.. especially rocks maps.
Thanks for the well written guide. I've been trying various roach openings as well with the same goal of getting a quicker 3rd.
Your approach is way more defensive than the ones i tried though. From the first look at the build it seems like if the terran reads your build well and doesn't invest into defense at all you'd struggle against various 9-10 min pushes with marine medivac + either tank or marauder, but i'm sure gonna try out your build as well and see how it plays out.
Late ling speed and no baneling nest along with a sizeable investment in roaches makes this very vulnerable to any 1 rax FE -> bio builds, or even 1 base all-ins like 2 tank pushes. There's also the popular heavy marine/hellion push, which you typically need to have banelings to deal with the stim marine/medivac/hellions in those numbers.
Yes it can be a decent build against reactor hellion, but even then they are supposed to have a marauder in a bunker and ~6 hellions will keep you at home while they take a fast 3rd. Pushing creep and spines forward and getting mutalisks is still the best way to deal with this. While roaches can get your creep and 3rd base a bit faster, they leave you very defenseless against any quick timing push. I think if you want to play like this it would be better to go for roach/baneling aggression and secure a third behind that, as it will put the terran on the defensive and potentially kill them, meanwhile you are safe to drone up, take a third, and spread creep.
On January 27 2012 22:27 oOOoOphidian wrote: Late ling speed and no baneling nest along with a sizeable investment in roaches makes this very vulnerable to any 1 rax FE -> bio builds, or even 1 base all-ins like 2 tank pushes.
Yes it can be a decent build against reactor hellion, but even then they are supposed to have a marauder in a bunker and ~6 hellions will keep you at home while they take a fast 3rd. Pushing creep and spines forward and getting mutalisks is still the best way to deal with this. While roaches can get your creep and 3rd base a bit faster, they leave you very defenseless against any quick timing push. I think if you want to play like this it would be better to go for roach/baneling aggression and secure a third behind that, as it will put the terran on the defensive and potentially kill them, meanwhile you are safe to drone up, take a third, and spread creep.
well the idea here is precisely to not put pressure with roaches, so I don't get the point about marauders and bunkers... against 1 rax expand, I feel it's ok as you will expand too. as far as 1 base all ins are concerned, it's up to scouting and adapting in time, but with roach tech think u can deal with almost any 1 base all in correctly, with zergling and queen support...
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately.
lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark.
and considering i am GM on EU and NA im pretty sure i have more knowledge about the game than you. Don't post shit like that if you have no idea what you're talking about, in fact most of the time terrans open 3 orbital 2 base before deciding to attack, so really you need to either post relevant shit or dont post at all.
hi blade. thanks for the post . the build whole idea feels a lot like i've been doing for a while. (like lings don't give you map control but roaches do, and in the same way taking a third.) So id like to know if you've tried something like mine and evolved into your build and for which reasons. In all, critique mine or somehow convince me that yours is in general, a better idea.
I feel you could cut some corners like i've been doing. I'm refering to this part:
as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around) 24-25 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later) Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later) 2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50 6:10-6:30 - roach warren
I always drone scout, so in case of two rax or any early aggresion i adapt to invest in safety, but i see you make a lot of stuff as standard instead of reactively. But this is the build i do for example against a reactor hellion (and adapt if is into expand or allin).
Differences.
- When pool finishes, just 1 set of lings and double queen. One to chase the scout and then get into the tower in path to his base. The other to check his ramp for a second time (first was the scouting drone) and then hide behind his natural's minerals to spot for expansion. No spines and no third queen just yet, just drone. Nothing can surprise you at this point except a marine/scv allin, which is cheeze and will not discuss, but blindly defending for it is a waste. - While queens build, keep droning and drone as larvae allows, eventually you have 200 in the bank and can afford the roach den and gas. I noticed that this timming lets you continually make drones, and get 2 roaches just as the den pops, which also times pretty nicely with the fastest 2 hellions that are about to arrive. Keep droning and add roaches up to 6 as gas allows. The second 2 roaches are done around the time the hellion count is 4 (they usually stop making them at that). Its amazing how much you can drone this way, as roaches are much more larvae efficient than lings. - On 6 roaches (number adjusted to hellions comming into the field), you can spare 2 to take watch towers and basically keep them forever. No way a push will come that you will not see. They take forever for hellions to kill them, and say in metalopolis, can't even kite them cause they need vision to attack the roach. And even if they are fancy and have apm to spare, i send another roach just as he begins killing the first one, and replace it with another. - unless he is making a lot of hellions, forcing more roaches, as soon as you get 100 gas, make speed(This is important for early pushes.), next gas lair. - On maps with easy 3rds like metal, i take 3rd really quick, like when you send the 2 roaches to the towers. Else i macrohatch and start killing rocks with the roaches. As soon as i get 300 in the bank while droning, the hatch goes down. When i put it down, i make the 3rd queen, which will be able to creep once and move to the third with almost mana to inject.
From here it varies a lot, but i usually change to mutas while scouting a lot to check wether i need to pump a lot of units to stop a push and get into midgame with (hopefully) and advantage. And as lair is done i overseer sucide mission check for marinetank or mech.
The core idea is that you get map control, are pretty much immune to the earliest harrassments (reaper/hellions) and are incredibly rich in larvae. So if you play your scouting cards right, at any time you can EXPLODE in drones, or in army.
oh btw, i am having trouble opening replay 4. it says: the launch of this game makes reference to mod or map dependencies which are no longer available. so i guess it doesn't work on eu server. no biggie, other 3 worked fine.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately.
lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark.
So what you're saying is you can verify they expand (and not marauder hellion allin) behind hellions before they even are out, every game? God you must be good.
I've been experimenting with a build very simular to this where my wall off at my nat consists of my evo chamber and my roach warren. I think make roaches if I see more then 2-4 hellions, or the terrans hellions are really giving me trouble. I also delay my lair a little longer and get the +1 carapace first after ling speed prior to the lair, so far I have found this is working rather well and only delays the lair a little. The reasoning for this is because I find A LOT of terrans on ladder now are going for early timing pushes / aggression to end the game really fast or do massive amount of damage. I find +1 carapce makes my units much more cost efficenet vs the terran horras tatics till my muta / infestor pop out. Letting me drone a little harder, however I am still testing it.
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately.
lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark.
So what you're saying is you can verify they expand (and not marauder hellion allin) behind hellions before they even are out, every game? God you must be good.
im pretty good, and yes, its called drone scouting lol. I played NrGLuckyFool just yesterday who - reactor hellion into 2rax stim marine/marauder scv all-in'd me and i held, so.. instead of being ignorant u should respect my post. I actually dont even know why i bother posting, u guys are saying taking a 5 min 3rd vs terran is bad lol... no wonder u guys are stuck in <masters
Very good guide. Interesting how he pointed out that pros got upgrades and speed for roaches, it kind of forces them to make roaches making them less cost effective.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
That is another reason i like to skip the 2spines and delay the 3rd queen in favor of earlier roaches. Roaches can move.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately.
lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark.
So what you're saying is you can verify they expand (and not marauder hellion allin) behind hellions before they even are out, every game? God you must be good.
im pretty good, and yes, its called drone scouting lol. I played NrGLuckyFool just yesterday who - reactor hellion into 2rax stim marine/marauder scv all-in'd me and i held, so.. instead of being ignorant u should respect my post. I actually dont even know why i bother posting, u guys are saying taking a 5 min 3rd vs terran is bad lol... no wonder u guys are stuck in <masters
I'd rather not post my replays in a thread, but if u want to see the specific replay im referring to you can PM me your info and ill send it to you after work.
I've opened with similar styles for a long time, with different levels of roach and even ling/bane aggression to go with it. I've even seen Sheth, DRG, and others open this way to great effect. Thanks for the guide :D your analysis was great.
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far.
Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there.
But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes.
On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote: And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far.
Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there.
But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes.
On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote: And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far.
Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there.
But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes.
On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote: And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans.
Sigh I am sorry but it just doesn't work. I can send my drone early I would have to start my third at 4 minutes which would be retarded to do for many reasons. I just don't see how you can generally say getting a third before hellions (which is like 4-4:45 plopping it down) is even viable. That's taking a huge risk and can no way be considered safe. You won't even know if the terran has taken his natural yet or if he's even making it.
Watched a few of my replays to see drone timings and I was incorrect I am almost always 12+ drones and have a period of time where I am 15-20 ahead as it should be.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far.
Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there.
But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes.
On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote: And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans.
Sigh I am sorry but it just doesn't work. I can send my drone early I would have to start my third at 4 minutes which would be retarded to do for many reasons. I just don't see how you can generally say getting a third before hellions (which is like 4-4:45 plopping it down) is even viable. That's taking a huge risk and can no way be considered safe. You won't even know if the terran has taken his natural yet or if he's even making it.
Watched a few of my replays to see drone timings and I was incorrect I am almost always 12+ drones and have a period of time where I am 15-20 ahead as it should be.
Hellions always poke the natural first, they dont go to where your 3rd usually is. You can say it doesnt work all you want, but if you're denying opening roaches instead of drones doesnt affect your economy, well then i dont know what to say.
On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote: The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.
Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that.
Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee .
Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote: did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote: If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote: I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far.
Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there.
But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes.
On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote: And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans.
Sigh I am sorry but it just doesn't work. I can send my drone early I would have to start my third at 4 minutes which would be retarded to do for many reasons. I just don't see how you can generally say getting a third before hellions (which is like 4-4:45 plopping it down) is even viable. That's taking a huge risk and can no way be considered safe. You won't even know if the terran has taken his natural yet or if he's even making it.
Watched a few of my replays to see drone timings and I was incorrect I am almost always 12+ drones and have a period of time where I am 15-20 ahead as it should be.
Hellions always poke the natural first, they dont go to where your 3rd usually is. You can say it doesnt work all you want, but if you're denying opening roaches instead of drones doesnt affect your economy, well then i dont know what to say.
Well I imagine if you play as good terrans as you say they should be punishing that because it is very punishable if you are taking a third that early. I know Korean terrans will punish that. They wont' let you get away with a ballsy third hoping he doesn't scout it lol. You can say it works all you want but there must be a reason no zerg I have ever seen does that.
It doesn't like I said if being 12 or so workers ahead is putting you behind economy then zerg is always behind in economy to terran then (which isn't true). I just don't know what to say to you for you to understand, you obviously didn't read the OP or watch the replays and are just theory crafting right now. Where I have replays, showing proof of what I do and how it works and have experience in like every situation with this build except 2 base cloak banshee.
Again I am not saying my build is the best build either just an FYI just a build I like more then other opening zvt builds as of right now :D.
i am also not saying your build is bad, but how can an early 3rd like that be punished? a reactor hellion expand cant punish an early 3rd. And its not like you have to saturate right away, its there for production and is up for when it's safe to transfer/saturate. Also, no i didnt see your replays, and i know what skill level your at (if u are the sPsblade guy) I've played you before. Also being ahead 10-12 workers is not "ahead" of terran cause 2 mules equates to that drone lead. This isn't theorycrafting, I can provide u replays if u want to check out exactly what I'm talking about. I've stopped 1 base hellion/rauder/scv stim timing with this early 3rd so i know that it's definitely safe vs any weird 2 base timings.
Nice guide Blade! I have been making a few roaches to help with reactor hellions but its nice for someone to write it up nicely. Nothing makes me more angry then seeing my lings/drones fried!
I actually found myself doing the build Destiny uses for ZvT, and just powering roach ling off of two base. I then got ling upgrades and went into infestors.
However, I had the same problems that you suggested. If the terran went tanks into a fast 3rd, I would be in big trouble.
In addition, I could't creep spread because of the late ling speed.
This build solves exactly the problems I was having. Tyvm!
On January 28 2012 05:52 Tanatos wrote: Great build! So which ladder+tourney map do you prefer or not to use this build?
Well right now I use it on all maps but I do a faster lair on maps like taldarim/shattered due to the far third bases and drops (koreans love to do these before mutalisks) can kill it due to the far distance, harder to defend. I have been thinking of possibly destroying the rocks though on the maps to either take the third, or on shattered take the little bit further base. Haven't decided on whats best.
I wouldn't do this build though every single zvt I play though in a tournament, I would definitely mix it up don't want to be predictable
On January 28 2012 05:52 Tanatos wrote: Great build! So which ladder+tourney map do you prefer or not to use this build?
Well right now I use it on all maps but I do a faster lair on maps like taldarim/shattered due to the far third bases and drops (koreans love to do these before mutalisks) can kill it due to the far distance, harder to defend. I have been thinking of possibly destroying the rocks though on the maps to either take the third, or on shattered take the little bit further base. Haven't decided on whats best.
I wouldn't do this build though every single zvt I play though in a tournament, I would definitely mix it up don't want to be predictable
Thanks!
I like this build because this build seem to crush mech style terran with early 200/200 rush. Well, just to be clear, what is your follow up agaisnt mech style?
On January 28 2012 05:52 Tanatos wrote: Great build! So which ladder+tourney map do you prefer or not to use this build?
Well right now I use it on all maps but I do a faster lair on maps like taldarim/shattered due to the far third bases and drops (koreans love to do these before mutalisks) can kill it due to the far distance, harder to defend. I have been thinking of possibly destroying the rocks though on the maps to either take the third, or on shattered take the little bit further base. Haven't decided on whats best.
I wouldn't do this build though every single zvt I play though in a tournament, I would definitely mix it up don't want to be predictable
Thanks!
I like this build because this build seem to crush mech style terran with early 200/200 rush. Well, just to be clear, what is your follow up agaisnt mech style?
muta/roach/ling/bane but faster hive then I usually do for broodlords. With flanking manuevers as well works well vs mech if he does a 2 base push.
-why do you get the spine(s) at 24/25 instead of 29/30? -what do you do about hellion drops (roaches dont kill hellions particularly fast :/) -cant your roaches easily get isolated and killed by hellions if you have some running around the map (for mapcontrol)?l -if you use your roaches for mapcontrol, what do you have at home to defend against drops or simply hellions driving past your 1 crawler -how do you defend your early third vs banshee? -i dont see you mentioning an evo chamber anywhere, do you just take the risk of default losing to cloakbanshee? - not necessarily bad, but would be good to know.
dont take it as hating, but some points seemed questionable to me.
On January 28 2012 06:43 DarKFoRcE wrote: -why do you get the spine(s) at 24/25 instead of 29/30? -what do you do about hellion drops (roaches dont kill hellions particularly fast :/) -cant your roaches easily get isolated and killed by hellions if you have some running around the map (for mapcontrol)?l -if you use your roaches for mapcontrol, what do you have at home to defend against drops or simply hellions driving past your 1 crawler -how do you defend your early third vs banshee? -i dont see you mentioning an evo chamber anywhere, do you just take the risk of default losing to cloakbanshee? - not necessarily bad, but would be good to know.
dont take it as hating, but some points seemed questionable to me.
Don't worry I won't take it as hating, constructive criticism, let alone any comments I welcome :D.
For the spines, I am just dumb and get them to early I am actually going to change that lol thanks for pointing that out, since I used to never ever do spines and do earlier roaches never knew the timings of it :D.
Well it really depends. If he has a ton of hellions I will make the appropriate amount of roaches so that I can maintain map control while defending my natural. The only unit that can really threaten the roach early game is obviously the marauder being the huge one. But normally I will send my roaches out in 2 if there are 4 hellions out so that they don't pick off 1 at a time.
Hellion drops I send roaches and if my roaches aren't in time I split drones so he can't kill much.
I have a good sim city and 2 queens to block paths so they can't do that. I have it on the replays as well but I normally leave a couple roaches behind just for the fact of denying hellions on shooting my third or whatever. You can always analyze the replays I put see what I mean if I am not explaining it good enough on this part.
Queens to defend vs banshee, if its vs cloaked banshee off of 2 base I have yet to encounter it and am going to be doing some practice games against that soon and will update the OP after I play vs it a few times.
And no I normally do get an evo chamber either as part of my wall or just in case of banshee's. I guess I should put that in the BO, I just get it in random times normally before banshee's would come out of course but I do have an evo just incase of the cloaked banshee.
Again I don't take it as hating if you were blindly calling it bad without any comments or something I would I always like good criticisms as it can also pin point weaknesses I may not have encountered and can test to see what I should do (or not do) .
yes of course you defend with queens against banshees, but not on every map your third is so close to the natural. i was thinking about reactor hellion -> 1 port banshee -> CC builds (or similar stuff). and there you have problems vs just a single banshee, and as your opponent should definitely be able to scout your early third, he will of course get a second banshee to apply more pressure. if you move your queens out of your natu/main to your third, then suddenly your wall there has a weakness to hellions driving in, together with the banshees that can just fly elsewhere and such.
while you can definitely hold it off, it all seems very very fragile to me :\
another thing that seems hard to defend against is the build that jjakji played against sen on daybreak (sen also played some build where he got a few roaches early on). due to all your tech being very late, you will fighting (hopefully already speed)ling (+maybe slow banes) and slow roaches against hellions + stimmed mariners + 2 medivacs. i can say from experience that thats something rather uncomfortable^^ (not saying its impossible to defend).
On January 28 2012 08:14 DarKFoRcE wrote: yes of course you defend with queens against banshees, but not on every map your third is so close to the natural. i was thinking about reactor hellion -> 1 port banshee -> CC builds (or similar stuff). and there you have problems vs just a single banshee, and as your opponent should definitely be able to scout your early third, he will of course get a second banshee to apply more pressure. if you move your queens out of your natu/main to your third, then suddenly your wall there has a weakness to hellions driving in, together with the banshees that can just fly elsewhere and such.
while you can definitely hold it off, it all seems very very fragile to me :\
another thing that seems hard to defend against is the build that jjakji played against sen on daybreak (sen also played some build where he got a few roaches early on). due to all your tech being very late, you will fighting (hopefully already speed)ling (+maybe slow banes) and slow roaches against hellions + stimmed mariners + 2 medivacs. i can say from experience that thats something rather uncomfortable^^ (not saying its impossible to defend).
Well honestly if I see a banshee I am going to make another queen but yeah on maps like shattered/taldarim this build isn't the best just because of the rocks blocking the third. I don't play on the new maps so I can't comment on those but those 2 maps this build isn't the best on just again due to rocks.
Yeah I face that hellions/stimmed marines and 2 medivacs a decent amount on korea. I actually have very little problem holding it off due to the roaches doing good vs the hellions and ling surround with a couple banelings. I'll try and upload a replay of it to showcase it vs that time to search! (I know you say not impossible but I have found its not to hard actually but I don't know if he did the exact same version of marine/hellion that jjakji did vs sen as I didn't see that game xD).
Here is a replay of someone doing that 2 medivac stimmed marine/hellion drop. I imagine this is the build you are talking about?
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base.
if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol.
in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet)
if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base.
if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol.
in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet)
if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D
Usually he has 8 marine, 4 hellion and one medivac. I have no idea it's coming until the medivac comes. I feel like I can't stop it unless I have 25 lings, which is a incredibly high amount at that point in the game.
just as a side note: 4 roaches kill a rock in 1 minut 20 sec; 5 roaches in 1 min... So I guess it's doable to kill rocks with roaches to get a close third, in most situations, provided he doesn't harass too much with helions...
I was wondering, blade, as I re read your post: why do you favor spines and later roaches against earlier roaches without spines? Have you tried both variations? cause I feel that earlier roaches would help to take an earlier third too (I personally have 4 roaches at 5:50, and can start a third around minut 6).
On January 28 2012 18:57 Macpo wrote: just as a side note: 4 roaches kill a rock in 1 minut 20 sec; 5 roaches in 1 min... So I guess it's doable to kill rocks with roaches to get a close third, in most situations, provided he doesn't harass too much with helions...
I was wondering, blade, as I re read your post: why do you favor spines and later roaches against earlier roaches without spines? Have you tried both variations? cause I feel that earlier roaches would help to take an earlier third too (I personally have 4 roaches at 5:50, and can start a third around minut 6).
I used to do the roaches early and I found it actually was hurting my economy more then this way. I was only like 5-7 workers ahead of terran if I did roaches at a fast time. This method is much better economically.
btw faced cloaked banshee off of 2 base and I had my third up by the time his cloaked banshee's came but he didn't even check there so I don't know if I would have had to cancel would have to check replay but I didn't die and kept my 3 bases but yeah going to do some testing with a friend soon on that for those curious.
On January 28 2012 18:57 Macpo wrote: just as a side note: 4 roaches kill a rock in 1 minut 20 sec; 5 roaches in 1 min... So I guess it's doable to kill rocks with roaches to get a close third, in most situations, provided he doesn't harass too much with helions...
I was wondering, blade, as I re read your post: why do you favor spines and later roaches against earlier roaches without spines? Have you tried both variations? cause I feel that earlier roaches would help to take an earlier third too (I personally have 4 roaches at 5:50, and can start a third around minut 6).
I used to do the roaches early and I found it actually was hurting my economy more then this way. I was only like 5-7 workers ahead of terran if I did roaches at a fast time. This method is much better economically.
btw faced cloaked banshee off of 2 base and I had my third up by the time his cloaked banshee's came but he didn't even check there so I don't know if I would have had to cancel would have to check replay but I didn't die and kept my 3 bases but yeah going to do some testing with a friend soon on that for those curious.
yeah I am curious tell us when testing is done! thanks for the reply
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base.
if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol.
in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet)
if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D
Usually he has 8 marine, 4 hellion and one medivac. I have no idea it's coming until the medivac comes. I feel like I can't stop it unless I have 25 lings, which is a incredibly high amount at that point in the game.
is this against a factory with or without reactor? against non reactor factory you should not give up mapcontrol imo and fight his hellions offcreep. this also means you should see him moving out, which gives you plenty of time to prepare.
i know this might sound weird, as i always argue against trying to chase away the hellions early. but against single hellion production you make it too easy for the terran if you dont fight against them. remember, if terran doesnt have mapcontrol, he also has to be more afraid of possible roach + x allins coming (because he doesnt see them coming). plus you can spread creep freely and can take a third at any time. the only cost is that you build a few more lings.
I hate to say that I have been doing a very similar roach opening for a year now, and I love it.
I dont get the early spine tho. I personally find that the roaches are good enough, and I used the 100 min + that drone for more droning.
Vs cloaked banshee - I find that when I roach poke (while leaving 2-3 roaches at home for helion runbys) The roaches banging at the front door, 99% of the time, force the terran to show them to you there, because the terran uses them for defense.
----> make 2 - 4 more queens + thown down the evo. And I haev been able to stop banshee's every time. ^_^
EDIT: In my match ups I have found that roach ling bling + your queens to snipe medivacts do a great job vs elevator drops.
BLade. What are you OL timings after 28? do you make two at a time, each time you get near supply capped?
Not really sure of any other disadvantages I can think of at the moment but those are the 2 that pop off in my head.
I think you left out the fact that you made roaches and they are a godawful unit that costs a lot of resources.
Speaking as a Terran here, I feel like your build works a lot because roach aggression is really good so if you see 3-5 roaches you might panic and overreact in your defense which is probably not a good idea against a fast 3rd. But in general this strategy just isn't very good. Roaches cost a lot and they are shitey. Some Zergs are magic and can make defensive roaches work really well (Nerchio comes to mind) and they use the roaches and the roach warren as part of a longer term plan (again, Nerchio does this so well and it's quite amazing) but in general Roaches are a very bad unit defensively. Super good aggressively though T_T
The main disadvantages with this style are a weakness to Terrans who are being really greedy (because you've cut a lot of drones to get out a bunch of roaches which you can't really do anything with unless he's playing mech), Terrans who make banshees (Roaches can't shoot up and GL getting a 3rd up with banshees out) and Terrans who just ignore the fact you made roaches and still hit you with a super strong timing + maybe a few marauders (depending on what the openings were etc).
I play a ton of TvZ on korea (high masters, rarely vs GM) and they almost never do defensive roaches like this because if they do they die to all the dipshit aggressive Terrans. If they make roaches, they make them to attack. This is also the main trend in really high level TvZ.
I think a really solid example of just how bad roaches are defensively is Sen vs Jiakji in this season's Code S. Game 1 on Dual site. Sen opens roach, jiakji makes banshees and does a really simple push and Sen's defensive roaches are so goddamn bad he gets obliterated. Sure you could find all sorts of reasons why Sen got crushed but to me the roaches are a big reason.
I guess for a lot of lower league players then it's ok cuz you're playing against shitty Terrans who don't know what they're doing, and this is a simple, clear and effective strategy so I endorse that aspect.
Very cool build, will definitely start using it. I have been going for early ling upgrades and setting up a sim city with a macro hatch + an evo and staying defensive with 2 queens and 1-2 spines until I reach a critical mass with my speedlings. It worked really well for quite some time (high dia/low masters) but lately I seem to run into more and more meching terrans opting for more than 4 hellions and getting blue flame so my ZvT is suffering big time. Also, I hate not being able to take a quick third and not having map control for that long...
This build sounds like a really cool solution for my problem though
Not really sure of any other disadvantages I can think of at the moment but those are the 2 that pop off in my head.
I think you left out the fact that you made roaches and they are a godawful unit that costs a lot of resources.
Speaking as a Terran here, I feel like your build works a lot because roach aggression is really good so if you see 3-5 roaches you might panic and overreact in your defense which is probably not a good idea against a fast 3rd. But in general this strategy just isn't very good. Roaches cost a lot and they are shitey. Some Zergs are magic and can make defensive roaches work really well (Nerchio comes to mind) and they use the roaches and the roach warren as part of a longer term plan (again, Nerchio does this so well and it's quite amazing) but in general Roaches are a very bad unit defensively. Super good aggressively though T_T
The main disadvantages with this style are a weakness to Terrans who are being really greedy (because you've cut a lot of drones to get out a bunch of roaches which you can't really do anything with unless he's playing mech), Terrans who make banshees (Roaches can't shoot up and GL getting a 3rd up with banshees out) and Terrans who just ignore the fact you made roaches and still hit you with a super strong timing + maybe a few marauders (depending on what the openings were etc).
I play a ton of TvZ on korea (high masters, rarely vs GM) and they almost never do defensive roaches like this because if they do they die to all the dipshit aggressive Terrans. If they make roaches, they make them to attack. This is also the main trend in really high level TvZ.
I think a really solid example of just how bad roaches are defensively is Sen vs Jiakji in this season's Code S. Game 1 on Dual site. Sen opens roach, jiakji makes banshees and does a really simple push and Sen's defensive roaches are so goddamn bad he gets obliterated. Sure you could find all sorts of reasons why Sen got crushed but to me the roaches are a big reason.
I guess for a lot of lower league players then it's ok cuz you're playing against shitty Terrans who don't know what they're doing, and this is a simple, clear and effective strategy so I endorse that aspect.
Err I don't make a ton of roaches I don't get upgrades for them and I heavily disagree with roaches being a bad defensive unit. I play a ton of high masters with the occasional gm terrans as well and I don't die early game due to roaches. If I ever die to an aggressive push its either I engaged like an idiot or I supply capped myself, never because I made roaches. I have been going early roaches since beta but this more refined version for the past month or so.
Do note if you read the whole OP you would notice most of my army is still ling/bane. Also I can tell you didn't read the OP because like a guy in here who claimed I did this vs Na terrans no I play exclusively korean server and thats it. So if high masters/gm kr terrans are shitty I don't know what to say. But again you should probably read the whole guide and on how many roaches i make, how I use them, and what my unit composition is.
From reading your post it sounds like you think I am commiting to roaches by making a ton when I make 4-6 and that is it unless terran is going mech. That's not a ton and works really well to maintain map control and again get a third ^^. I don't remember sen vs jjajki would have to see what he did but I am pretty sure he didn't just make 4 from the sound of it he made a lot.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote: Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base.
if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol.
in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet)
if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D
Usually he has 8 marine, 4 hellion and one medivac. I have no idea it's coming until the medivac comes. I feel like I can't stop it unless I have 25 lings, which is a incredibly high amount at that point in the game.
As Terran:
That 1-1-1 drop (into Command Center) is pretty much my standard play. The things that I've found that work really well are keeping SPEEDlings underneath the medivac while you target it down with Queens, and remain vigilant about where he's trying to drop hellions in your base. I tend to opt for just a hellion drop (recycled to hit mineral lines multiple times) and the only thing that really shuts it down are speedlings underneath it when I go to unload.
EDIT HERE: I sometimes do marine/hellion elevator and sometimes drop Hellions into a mineral line and then reload and redrop onto the next mineral line! The build gives you a lot of freedom on where you hit and with how much strength. A straight up elevator after hellion drop harass will most likely kill you if you relied at any point on spines for defense unless you have lings at the elevator location.
Going roaches really delays your Zergling speed, which can potentially be fatal. However, with good unit positioning you can still overcome it. You want your Zerglings under the medivac as it drops units, and your roach positioning is kinda unimportant. The lings will kill dropped hellions very quickly (and Queen fire can force a drop if the medivac is caught out of position).
As Zerg:
When I play against hellions I don't really make roaches anymore because of how exploitable it is by 1-base play with air units, however this build (6 min or so roach warren) is incredibly solid against anything involving reactor hellions.
As far as banshees go off of any opener (concerning taking your third before Mutalisks) you need creep spread, queens, and a spore per base. The third one just walks over on the creep to aid your Queens. This build sets you up with good creep spread, so if you make that third spore and your creep is almost at the third location, you're golden.
I'd upload some replays, but I didn't save them and it turns out they're more than 25 games past. x.x
Disclaimer: I'm a diamond leaguer. My execution is less than perfect, but I DO know what the units can and cannot do. Good overlord spread and unit positioning is 100% the counter to drops (units dropping suck vs units on the ground).
Oh, and if I scout any roaches produced, I'll make 1-2 marauders and continue mass drop play with my bio while making addons with my factory. It feels very successful against players of my own level, and I don't feel any danger until infestors come out.
On January 29 2012 04:37 iaguz wrote: Well I definitely didn't read the entire thread cuz Darkforce basically outlines all the weaknesses of this build a lot better then I did.
He also asked how I deal with it and I was able to answer every one with how to deal with it without dying or whatever except for the 2 base cloaked banshee which I have only encountered once but I was just fine and had third down but he didn't even check the third so no idea.
I don't know why you would post in here when you haven't read the thread and just blindly go by 1 post xD but whatever ^^.
Roach opening is perfecting fine for dealing with anything the terran has (uncluding 1 base shee's) except for the proxy 2 rax. And your drone scout should tell you if there is a proxy rax.
On January 30 2012 00:29 EndOfLine wrote: Roach opening is perfecting fine for dealing with anything the terran has (uncluding 1 base shee's) except for the proxy 2 rax. And your drone scout should tell you if there is a proxy rax.
not to sound insulting or anything, but it baffles me how you can state something like that with so much certainty, even though you have rather likely never played against really good terrans with it.
On January 30 2012 00:29 EndOfLine wrote: Roach opening is perfecting fine for dealing with anything the terran has (uncluding 1 base shee's) except for the proxy 2 rax. And your drone scout should tell you if there is a proxy rax.
not to sound insulting or anything, but it baffles me how you can state something like that with so much certainty, even though you have rather likely never played against really good terrans with it.
Pm sent.
Course im not insulted. I am a no name right now ^_^, and no one here knows what my skill lvl is, Or whom I play against for that matter. Then again, no one has asked.
Edit: But because it pertains to this conversation: A Mixed bag of Masters, Top8 Masters, Some GM's, And a few pro's
Thanks for the guide. If I might make a suggestion, maybe you could collect the best user questions and your answers to them and drop them into a spoilered section in the OP? Decaf's roach ling muta guide vs. Protoss is a great example of this. That would save people from asking questions that have already been asked.
At the risk of doing exactly that I will ask: how would this vary if you scouted 2 rax no gas? You mentioned the spawning pool timing - any other change? Do you still get the roaches?
On January 30 2012 09:50 Chutoro wrote: Thanks for the guide. If I might make a suggestion, maybe you could collect the best user questions and your answers to them and drop them into a spoilered section in the OP? Decaf's roach ling muta guide vs. Protoss is a great example of this. That would save people from asking questions that have already been asked.
At the risk of doing exactly that I will ask: how would this vary if you scouted 2 rax no gas? You mentioned the spawning pool timing - any other change? Do you still get the roaches?
That is a good Idea I will definitely steal that thanks!
As for the 2 rax this is very dependant on what happened. If I hold off the 2 rax no problem took little to no damage then I will throw down a roach warren most likely but a little later then normal for a couple reasons.
There is the possibliity of 4 rax and I don't want to get a baneling nest even though its such a hard counter to the 4 rax because most of the time they go into reactor hellion but sometimes the occasional 4 rax which roaches do deal with quiet nicely as long as you are not supply capped of course. (at least thats what I have faced lately is hellions are always their next step it seems in the past when I faced it a lot >>).
So I would get the roach warren if I took little to no damage but there is the possiblity I may not use it, if he doesn't make hellions and doesn't try to do any cute timing pushes then I probably will not make any but if I see hellions or he tries a cute timing push I am not prepared for with lings/bane then I will get roaches.
If I take a decent amount of damage I will probably skip the roach warren all together and just hope he doesn't try to do any cute timing attacks or some hellion all in.
For me it depends on how much damage I take. Now i'll be honest since I have started doing this build I have only faced 2 rax twice so I don't have to much experience with 2 rax and on whether to get the roach warren or not.
I have another question (if you have time for it): how would you deal with reaper openings? Cause I have the impression, from my ladder experience, that they are getting more and more common, and I often have trouble dealing with them...
I guess there are two sides to the question:
1. how do you defend the initial reaper harass? only queens or something else? 2. How does the fact that he opens reaper impacts your roach orientation/timings? do you still go for roaches? at the same time, or later?
if you go 15 hatch there is like a 20 sec window before the queens pop out where reapers get to your base and can snipe drones.
However Your 2-4 lings pop out NEARLY just in time. So, if you chase the reaper with the slow lings, you can buy time for the queens to defend.
However, if you have 16 hatch, this window is even greater.
Once roaches come out tho. They hard counter reapers even more then helions. However because their rax had a tech lab. It can be more likely for murader all ins.
On January 30 2012 19:11 Macpo wrote: I have another question (if you have time for it): how would you deal with reaper openings? Cause I have the impression, from my ladder experience, that they are getting more and more common, and I often have trouble dealing with them...
I guess there are two sides to the question:
1. how do you defend the initial reaper harass? only queens or something else? 2. How does the fact that he opens reaper impacts your roach orientation/timings? do you still go for roaches? at the same time, or later?
Thanks!
With reaper openings since I 16 pool after hatch first there is a small window that he can do some damage but I just run my drones at the natural around while my lings pop within a second or 2 after he gets to my base. He shouldn't do much damage unless you just let him kill your drones or something.
But initial reapers with just queens + initial 4 lings.
I still get a roach warren and make a few roaches to kind of go to the natural of the terran to try to see if he has tanks out or if he has expanded like he should have and what not and keep them at the watch tower for map control. You don't have to get roaches though if they open reaper just because speedlings deal with a couple reapers pretty well.
Updated the main BO a little bit and added a FAQ at the bottom thanks to Chutoro with the idea .
I am also throwing in a replay vs a fast 3 CC build where I saw he was taking his third at 9 minutes around and flipped switch going roach/ling/bling and busted him. I am 3-0 when seeing a terran take a fast third that I feel is to greedy but this is the only replay I can find atm and don't feel like looking through 300 replays.
i am not entirely sure if this is answered in a post above, but would you care make a compare/contrast on the build that sometimes DRG uses that is 9OL/15h-15p-17g/2 queens one creep-one inject/28RW/28 2OL 6-7 roaches expand behind it
On February 23 2012 23:48 niladorus wrote: i am not entirely sure if this is answered in a post above, but would you care make a compare/contrast on the build that sometimes DRG uses that is 9OL/15h-15p-17g/2 queens one creep-one inject/28RW/28 2OL 6-7 roaches expand behind it
Hm would you mind linking me to a gsl game of him doing this or a replay or anywhere he has done this. That seems pretty similar to mine if he's taking a third but I haven't seen him do that before.
on the ace macth at this season quarterfinals final match,
the reason i say i think its because he then turned it into a ling/bling roach allin and i was also doing other stuff at home at the same time, however there is this audio build thing at youtube that takes it to the point.
On February 24 2012 08:22 niladorus wrote: i THINK that he did it + Show Spoiler +
on the ace macth at this season quarterfinals final match,
the reason i say i think its because he then turned it into a ling/bling roach allin and i was also doing other stuff at home at the same time, however there is this audio build thing at youtube that takes it to the point.
edit:so hard to find DRG's replays Q_Q
Oh well if he's just doing a 2 base all in then its obviously not the same :p. I've never seen a zerg really go roaches and then take a fast third as of yet xD
On February 24 2012 08:22 niladorus wrote: i THINK that he did it + Show Spoiler +
on the ace macth at this season quarterfinals final match,
the reason i say i think its because he then turned it into a ling/bling roach allin and i was also doing other stuff at home at the same time, however there is this audio build thing at youtube that takes it to the point.
edit:so hard to find DRG's replays Q_Q
Oh well if he's just doing a 2 base all in then its obviously not the same :p. I've never seen a zerg really go roaches and then take a fast third as of yet xD
DRG did a roach fast 3rd against gumiho on daybreak, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it a few times from him before (vs marineking on antiga maybe?), and it's also something that Zenio does a lot.
9 - overlord 10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later) 15 - hatchery 14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well) 16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around) 27-29 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later) Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later) 2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50 6:10-6:30 - roach warren as soon as it finishes make 4-5 roaches more if necessary soon as roaches are out take a third get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches go lair on next 100 gas Soon as you start third take last 2 gases
Not meaning to nitpick, but the build described above is actually wrong (or, at least, it's not what you did in the 'Game 4' replay against the helion marauder).
In the replay you get your roach warren at ~5:30 (not "6:10 - 6:30" as described), and the gas timings work out really nicely so that when your warren finishes you have gas for 4-5 roaches. Following the described build you could actually get zergling speed BEFORE roaches and still have gas for roaches when the warren finishes.
Also, it looks like you are building an evo chamber to help block the helions (built at 6:00 in the rep I watched). I appreciate that the timing for this may not be firm, but it would be good to mention in the OP as otherwise the reader is missing what I think to be important information.
My friend Nova kept making fun of me for not using Speedlings as my main army and go Roaches quickly, to which I asked him why, since Roaches are a lot better imo.
Of course, banelings are great. But then you might as well make a few lings --> Banelings when you need them, not just have 200/200 lings.
9 - overlord 10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later) 15 - hatchery 14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well) 16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around) 27-29 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later) Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later) 2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50 6:10-6:30 - roach warren as soon as it finishes make 4-5 roaches more if necessary soon as roaches are out take a third get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches go lair on next 100 gas Soon as you start third take last 2 gases
Not meaning to nitpick, but the build described above is actually wrong (or, at least, it's not what you did in the 'Game 4' replay against the helion marauder).
In the replay you get your roach warren at ~5:30 (not "6:10 - 6:30" as described), and the gas timings work out really nicely so that when your warren finishes you have gas for 4-5 roaches. Following the described build you could actually get zergling speed BEFORE roaches and still have gas for roaches when the warren finishes.
Also, it looks like you are building an evo chamber to help block the helions (built at 6:00 in the rep I watched). I appreciate that the timing for this may not be firm, but it would be good to mention in the OP as otherwise the reader is missing what I think to be important information.
Oh that was when I made an adjustement to my roach timing, forgot in that fourth replay I uploaded a week or so after I wrote this. The 5:30 roach timing makes it crush the 1/1/1 marine/hellion drop ^_^. Thanks for pointing it out completely forgot about that.
On January 27 2012 09:16 Khainer wrote: Love your guides, straight to the point and no bullshit theorycrafting. Keep em coming
Yeah the guides are awesome but theorycrafting is so important, though I think it should be put in spoilers if it is there cause there are lots of people like myself that are very interested in it.
9 - overlord 10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later) 15 - hatchery 14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well) 16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around) 27-29 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later) Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later) 2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50 6:10-6:30 - roach warren as soon as it finishes make 4-5 roaches more if necessary soon as roaches are out take a third get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches go lair on next 100 gas Soon as you start third take last 2 gases
Not meaning to nitpick, but the build described above is actually wrong (or, at least, it's not what you did in the 'Game 4' replay against the helion marauder).
In the replay you get your roach warren at ~5:30 (not "6:10 - 6:30" as described), and the gas timings work out really nicely so that when your warren finishes you have gas for 4-5 roaches. Following the described build you could actually get zergling speed BEFORE roaches and still have gas for roaches when the warren finishes.
Also, it looks like you are building an evo chamber to help block the helions (built at 6:00 in the rep I watched). I appreciate that the timing for this may not be firm, but it would be good to mention in the OP as otherwise the reader is missing what I think to be important information.
Oh that was when I made an adjustement to my roach timing, forgot in that fourth replay I uploaded a week or so after I wrote this. The 5:30 roach timing makes it crush the 1/1/1 marine/hellion drop ^_^. Thanks for pointing it out completely forgot about that.
No problem. I was trying to follow the build through and found the timings didn't work well at all (big stockpile of gas), so I grabbed a replay to see you perform it and found you were doing something else! I'm surprised no-one mentioned anything.
I'll be practicing this so it's smooth and then I'll go smash some terrans! And those dastardly helions can sod right off.
Could you talk about evo chamber and baneling nest timings? Do you adjust these based on what you scout or keep them relatively consistent? I've been following the build up to the third and zergling speed but then going evo, lair, baneling nest. I'm not sure if I like my variation better or worse. Also, when do you take your 5th and 6th gases? About when you put down the spire?
On March 03 2012 06:08 Lobotomist wrote: Could you talk about evo chamber and baneling nest timings? Do you adjust these based on what you scout or keep them relatively consistent? I've been following the build up to the third and zergling speed but then going evo, lair, baneling nest. I'm not sure if I like my variation better or worse. Also, when do you take your 5th and 6th gases? About when you put down the spire?
Evo chamber should be put down at around 6 minutes I would say. This is a good timing so that if he is going cloak banshee's you are ready and you can start +1 carapace/melee.
I normally start my lair and then immediately baneling nest next, but I have also put my baneling nest right before lair. Up to you really don't think it matters either way unless your lair is later then you meant to. 5'th/6'th gases pretty much the second drones start getting there I start the gases, a little before the spire sometimes as soon as the spire. It really depends what the terran is doing.
If they are doing a 2 base all in/presure I would probably not get the 5'th/6'th gas as I would need the minerals more, but if he is taking a faster third which is normal in the current zvt game, I would get 5'th/6'th gases as I said before spire starts or as soon.
I absolutely love that this guy is feeding zergs the 'don't make a bunch of roaches' line. For terrans like me who make 4 hellions and then lift off and switch back and start tank production, this allows 7 roaches to pop out just in time for my 2 base push. Then they use the rest of their apm screaming at me
On March 06 2012 14:48 OPL3SA2 wrote: I absolutely love that this guy is feeding zergs the 'don't make a bunch of roaches' line. For terrans like me who make 4 hellions and then lift off and switch back and start tank production, this allows 7 roaches to pop out just in time for my 2 base push. Then they use the rest of their apm screaming at me
What zerg makes 7 roaches at the 2 base timing at 9 minutes :o.
On March 06 2012 14:48 OPL3SA2 wrote: I absolutely love that this guy is feeding zergs the 'don't make a bunch of roaches' line. For terrans like me who make 4 hellions and then lift off and switch back and start tank production, this allows 7 roaches to pop out just in time for my 2 base push. Then they use the rest of their apm screaming at me
What zerg makes 7 roaches at the 2 base timing at 9 minutes :o.
No i mean they switch off roaches and go back to zerglings. Or make only drones. Zerglings banelings and 7 roaches is what they have when they die
On March 06 2012 14:48 OPL3SA2 wrote: I absolutely love that this guy is feeding zergs the 'don't make a bunch of roaches' line. For terrans like me who make 4 hellions and then lift off and switch back and start tank production, this allows 7 roaches to pop out just in time for my 2 base push. Then they use the rest of their apm screaming at me
What zerg makes 7 roaches at the 2 base timing at 9 minutes :o.
No i mean they switch off roaches and go back to zerglings. Or make only drones. Zerglings banelings and 7 roaches is what they have when they die
Well they are doing it wrong then. I have done this vs GM korean terrans and won so I know its viable lol I made sure I played with it a lot before posting it to make sure it was viable and yes they have done 2 base pushes which are amazingly strong and held just fine ^_^.
I have been testing this out on maps with free thirds, and I really like it. As you said, the Roaches allow you to take your third much faster than normal 2 base tech builds do.
I have seen Stephano do something similar (on ladder). There even are a couple of replays in his just-released-pack of him doing 7-10 Roach + Zergling timings off a 6 min Roach Warren in order to secure his third.
I like the options this gives me; a couple of Roaches for map control and that quick third, a lot of Roaches for a push or even an all-in (Roach/Bane style). Very nice!
Some of the most fun games I've had are when some hapless Terran goes blind blue flame hellions into mech against this. 3-base Roach into expanding around the map into Roach drops and insta-remax :D
I suppose that says something about the level I play at :x
What do you recommend as for evo timings? For example, I see in your metropolis replay that you didn't build evo chambers until around the 13 minute mark, which is of course WAY too late to deal with hellion expand into cloaked banshees. What do you scout to decide the evo timing, and when do you feel it's good to put them down?
Do you need to do damage with this particular opening? I'm asking since I've been trying out an earlier roach opening by Mr. Bitter that can come as a surprise to Terrans, but requires you to do some damage.
The Mr. Bitter version puts the roach warren down around 28 (with gas around 17). You can make 5-6 roaches and defend any hellions that are around and then push his natural. You drone behind this and you can take the 3rd.
Since the current metagame is pretty much a reactor-hellion expand you'll catch the Terran by surprise if you hid the Roach Warren (else he can make some Marauders). You can and should do quite a bit of damage when pushing with the roaches. Best part about these roach openers is the fact that the pressure is more on Terran while mapcontrol goes to Zerg.
Good guide, i agree with you... I open a few roaches to stop hellions, and there's nothing better than roaches vs 2-3 fact hellion openings, and you can take your third.. sometimes it forces marauders from terran too.. only thing that is bad , like you said, is slower lair / muta tech etc.. which can be weak against banshee.
On April 11 2012 23:38 Morphs wrote: Do you need to do damage with this particular opening? I'm asking since I've been trying out an earlier roach opening by Mr. Bitter that can come as a surprise to Terrans, but requires you to do some damage.
The Mr. Bitter version puts the roach warren down around 28 (with gas around 17). You can make 5-6 roaches and defend any hellions that are around and then push his natural. You drone behind this and you can take the 3rd.
Since the current metagame is pretty much a reactor-hellion expand you'll catch the Terran by surprise if you hid the Roach Warren (else he can make some Marauders). You can and should do quite a bit of damage when pushing with the roaches. Best part about these roach openers is the fact that the pressure is more on Terran while mapcontrol goes to Zerg.
Nah, you don't need to do damage with this opening, I don't even think you can, the roach warren is far later in this variation and I doubt 6 roaches will do anything at this point unless the terran went for like 8 hellions or something.
I've been playing with a similar style for a while now... Since the IPL, every terrans seem to open 3 CC cloaked banshee so I find it really hard to take an early third. I tried to pressure with this opening and it's been working half of the times I'd say (master league)
On April 11 2012 21:33 Tobberoth wrote: What do you recommend as for evo timings? For example, I see in your metropolis replay that you didn't build evo chambers until around the 13 minute mark, which is of course WAY too late to deal with hellion expand into cloaked banshees. What do you scout to decide the evo timing, and when do you feel it's good to put them down?
Ah I need to update that in. My style of play has changed in terms doing 1/1 into ling/infestor so Evo's are actually set down pretty early now, especially compared to before. I will update that sometime today ^^. I would say 5:30-6 for the first one.
On April 11 2012 23:38 Morphs wrote: Do you need to do damage with this particular opening? I'm asking since I've been trying out an earlier roach opening by Mr. Bitter that can come as a surprise to Terrans, but requires you to do some damage.
The Mr. Bitter version puts the roach warren down around 28 (with gas around 17). You can make 5-6 roaches and defend any hellions that are around and then push his natural. You drone behind this and you can take the 3rd.
Since the current metagame is pretty much a reactor-hellion expand you'll catch the Terran by surprise if you hid the Roach Warren (else he can make some Marauders). You can and should do quite a bit of damage when pushing with the roaches. Best part about these roach openers is the fact that the pressure is more on Terran while mapcontrol goes to Zerg.
No you do not need to do damage with this, at least I don't do damage with it 90% of the time. It is just a defense and maintain map control and make a ton if he's doing some sort of all in. I rarely do damage when pushing (especially since this comes later then mrbitters version). They should have a bunker.
On April 12 2012 00:21 PandaMonk wrote: When do you throw down your evo chambers? right after the third or after you get lair/speed, or what??
I need to update OP, but I think 1st one around 5:30 then go into ling/infestor on most maps.
On April 12 2012 00:29 InfectedGoat wrote: I've been playing with a similar style for a while now... Since the IPL, every terrans seem to open 3 CC cloaked banshee so I find it really hard to take an early third. I tried to pressure with this opening and it's been working half of the times I'd say (master league)
Yes, going into cloak banshee's is extremely popular right now. I do think you will have the third done before cloak banshee so you should still be able to take it and be defended properly, but have to see the cloak coming first obviously xD.
I've been using this build and its been working out pretty well, but I've got some questions about going against mech. When do you really scout out what direction they are going, ie. mech or bio? I think it is after you start your upgrades, but do you feel the +1 melee upgrade is kind of wasted early on when they are going mech?
No I don't feel +1 melee is a waste because you should be going broodlords at a good pace. I scout as soon as lair finishes, make an overseer and go through his base and you'll know if he's going mech or not. Melee is always good IMO as it benefits the broodlords broodlings and ultra's when you do that transition when they make a ton of vikings.
On April 19 2012 06:56 Indrium wrote: Do you still not like roach speech? I see Stephano use it fairly well in the midgame with roach/ling/infestor, even against Marine/tank.
I am still personally against committing heavily to roaches only vs marine/tank. A lot of terrans now of days add marauders or go more tank heavy which decimates roaches if they are going typical marine/tank. Idk I still dislike it heavily but that's just personal opinion of course.
On April 19 2012 06:56 Indrium wrote: Do you still not like roach speech? I see Stephano use it fairly well in the midgame with roach/ling/infestor, even against Marine/tank.
I am still personally against committing heavily to roaches only vs marine/tank. A lot of terrans now of days add marauders or go more tank heavy which decimates roaches if they are going typical marine/tank. Idk I still dislike it heavily but that's just personal opinion of course.
Gotcha, nice to have a mix of views to roll around in my head. Thanks!
In your video tutorials I noticed you getting 4 queens instead of 3 and a later warren, you also seemed to skip the spine crawler. Is that something you are just experimenting with or is it your new standard opening and if so, do you plan to update the guide?
In both games I saw the terran went 1-rax FE but I'm not sure how much that mattered?
On May 30 2012 22:13 chlindell wrote: In your video tutorials I noticed you getting 4 queens instead of 3 and a later warren, you also seemed to skip the spine crawler. Is that something you are just experimenting with or is it your new standard opening and if so, do you plan to update the guide?
In both games I saw the terran went 1-rax FE but I'm not sure how much that mattered?
I changed it due to the patch, now you don't really need the spine crawler due to the queen range. I will update this guide a little bit so that it is up to date
On May 30 2012 22:13 chlindell wrote: In your video tutorials I noticed you getting 4 queens instead of 3 and a later warren, you also seemed to skip the spine crawler. Is that something you are just experimenting with or is it your new standard opening and if so, do you plan to update the guide?
In both games I saw the terran went 1-rax FE but I'm not sure how much that mattered?
I changed it due to the patch, now you don't really need the spine crawler due to the queen range. I will update this guide a little bit so that it is up to date
how do you feel this build stacks up to the 6 queen opening that's recently taken over the zvt meta? The original premise of the build (roaches to push back hellions for creep spread) is handled pretty well with the gasless queen build, which also seems less vulnerable to banshees. Can you enlighten us with your thoughts on the similarities/differences between the two builds?
On May 30 2012 22:13 chlindell wrote: In your video tutorials I noticed you getting 4 queens instead of 3 and a later warren, you also seemed to skip the spine crawler. Is that something you are just experimenting with or is it your new standard opening and if so, do you plan to update the guide?
In both games I saw the terran went 1-rax FE but I'm not sure how much that mattered?
I changed it due to the patch, now you don't really need the spine crawler due to the queen range. I will update this guide a little bit so that it is up to date
how do you feel this build stacks up to the 6 queen opening that's recently taken over the zvt meta? The original premise of the build (roaches to push back hellions for creep spread) is handled pretty well with the gasless queen build, which also seems less vulnerable to banshees. Can you enlighten us with your thoughts on the similarities/differences between the two builds?
Eh I dont' like the 6 queen build to much, I like the 4 queen build and then adding in roaches but 6 queens idk I know it's good but I just don't like it to much. If I suspect banshees or something i'll add more queens but otherwise I am just doing 4 queens, roach warren and all that fun stuff.
6 queen is strong but I think it could be exploitable by terran as they can be extremely greedy and not much you can do to punish it and all that. Idk I prefer 4 and i'll probably stick with 4 ^^.
Oh hahaha, I was totally about to BLOW THIS BUILD UP. Then I realized it was from January. Yeah, this started to become the standard right before the queen upgrade, especially for Stephano. I like this idea even now, although I feel like you can probably go for that 3rd hatch before putting down the roach warren. This allows you to get the early hatchery still while still being prepared to defend versus an early attack as well as push back the hellions. In the new metagame, 4 queens is generally more than enough to hold off hellion pressure and continue spreading creep.
On July 11 2012 04:07 SC2John wrote: Oh hahaha, I was totally about to BLOW THIS BUILD UP. Then I realized it was from January. Yeah, this started to become the standard right before the queen upgrade, especially for Stephano. I like this idea even now, although I feel like you can probably go for that 3rd hatch before putting down the roach warren. This allows you to get the early hatchery still while still being prepared to defend versus an early attack as well as push back the hellions. In the new metagame, 4 queens is generally more than enough to hold off hellion pressure and continue spreading creep.
That is correct, I do want to state I was using roaches before anyone else started using them (since beta I have always prefered using roaches early game as they so gosu vs terran :D).
You are right though you can take a third easily before roach warren and you'll be just fine. It is actually what I do most of the time now of days :D.
5:30-5:45 - third base 5:45-6:15 - roach warren 5:30-5:40 - first evo chamber 6:00-6:30 - take a third once third starts - take gases 2,3,4 [...] Soon as you start third take last 2 gases
This is very confusing to me. you get a third base at 5:30-5:45, then you say again take a third at 6:00-6:30?? Also you say when third starts get 4 gases, then you say get 6 gases... I don't understand =S