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On January 28 2012 17:25 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 11:50 DarKFoRcE wrote:On January 28 2012 09:19 T.O.P. wrote:On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Offtopic, but how to you stop this drop. Every game I target medivac with 3 queens but my speedlings get melted. It also feels unscoutable. I dunno if he's building a cc in base or starport in base. if you have ling speed researched, you should have the usual 8-10 lings to speed hellion runbyes and if he goes for the really fast drop it should be without reactor hellion, in which case you should be able to fight his hellions offcreep - and keep some mapvision/mapcontrol. in any case, it really helps to have some creep between natu/main and in your main. if you dont have enough lings yet (once you see him approaching you obviously only build lings) you have to wait till he elevators everything and engage on creep. if you have creep at the elevator position or nearby, you can engage with all queens focusing the medivac and your lings after he has unloaded the first set of units and just loaded in the second set (meaning he cant load in the units on the highground and not all other units are unloaded yet) if you go for the roach build described here, its probably just game over. another reason why i dont like roach builds with late speed ;D Usually he has 8 marine, 4 hellion and one medivac. I have no idea it's coming until the medivac comes. I feel like I can't stop it unless I have 25 lings, which is a incredibly high amount at that point in the game.
As Terran:
That 1-1-1 drop (into Command Center) is pretty much my standard play. The things that I've found that work really well are keeping SPEEDlings underneath the medivac while you target it down with Queens, and remain vigilant about where he's trying to drop hellions in your base. I tend to opt for just a hellion drop (recycled to hit mineral lines multiple times) and the only thing that really shuts it down are speedlings underneath it when I go to unload.
EDIT HERE: I sometimes do marine/hellion elevator and sometimes drop Hellions into a mineral line and then reload and redrop onto the next mineral line! The build gives you a lot of freedom on where you hit and with how much strength. A straight up elevator after hellion drop harass will most likely kill you if you relied at any point on spines for defense unless you have lings at the elevator location.
Going roaches really delays your Zergling speed, which can potentially be fatal. However, with good unit positioning you can still overcome it. You want your Zerglings under the medivac as it drops units, and your roach positioning is kinda unimportant. The lings will kill dropped hellions very quickly (and Queen fire can force a drop if the medivac is caught out of position).
As Zerg:
When I play against hellions I don't really make roaches anymore because of how exploitable it is by 1-base play with air units, however this build (6 min or so roach warren) is incredibly solid against anything involving reactor hellions.
As far as banshees go off of any opener (concerning taking your third before Mutalisks) you need creep spread, queens, and a spore per base. The third one just walks over on the creep to aid your Queens. This build sets you up with good creep spread, so if you make that third spore and your creep is almost at the third location, you're golden.
I'd upload some replays, but I didn't save them and it turns out they're more than 25 games past. x.x
Disclaimer: I'm a diamond leaguer. My execution is less than perfect, but I DO know what the units can and cannot do. Good overlord spread and unit positioning is 100% the counter to drops (units dropping suck vs units on the ground).
Oh, and if I scout any roaches produced, I'll make 1-2 marauders and continue mass drop play with my bio while making addons with my factory. It feels very successful against players of my own level, and I don't feel any danger until infestors come out.
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On January 29 2012 04:37 iaguz wrote:
Well I definitely didn't read the entire thread cuz Darkforce basically outlines all the weaknesses of this build a lot better then I did.
He also asked how I deal with it and I was able to answer every one with how to deal with it without dying or whatever except for the 2 base cloaked banshee which I have only encountered once but I was just fine and had third down but he didn't even check the third so no idea.
I don't know why you would post in here when you haven't read the thread and just blindly go by 1 post xD but whatever ^^.
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Roach opening is perfecting fine for dealing with anything the terran has (uncluding 1 base shee's) except for the proxy 2 rax. And your drone scout should tell you if there is a proxy rax.
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On January 30 2012 00:29 EndOfLine wrote:
Roach opening is perfecting fine for dealing with anything the terran has (uncluding 1 base shee's) except for the proxy 2 rax. And your drone scout should tell you if there is a proxy rax.
not to sound insulting or anything, but it baffles me how you can state something like that with so much certainty, even though you have rather likely never played against really good terrans with it.
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On January 30 2012 01:47 DarKFoRcE wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2012 00:29 EndOfLine wrote:
Roach opening is perfecting fine for dealing with anything the terran has (uncluding 1 base shee's) except for the proxy 2 rax. And your drone scout should tell you if there is a proxy rax.
not to sound insulting or anything, but it baffles me how you can state something like that with so much certainty, even though you have rather likely never played against really good terrans with it.
Pm sent.
Course im not insulted. I am a no name right now ^_^, and no one here knows what my skill lvl is, Or whom I play against for that matter. Then again, no one has asked.
Edit: But because it pertains to this conversation: A Mixed bag of Masters, Top8 Masters, Some GM's, And a few pro's
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Thanks for the guide. If I might make a suggestion, maybe you could collect the best user questions and your answers to them and drop them into a spoilered section in the OP? Decaf's roach ling muta guide vs. Protoss is a great example of this. That would save people from asking questions that have already been asked.
At the risk of doing exactly that I will ask: how would this vary if you scouted 2 rax no gas? You mentioned the spawning pool timing - any other change? Do you still get the roaches?
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On January 30 2012 09:50 Chutoro wrote:
Thanks for the guide. If I might make a suggestion, maybe you could collect the best user questions and your answers to them and drop them into a spoilered section in the OP? Decaf's roach ling muta guide vs. Protoss is a great example of this. That would save people from asking questions that have already been asked.
At the risk of doing exactly that I will ask: how would this vary if you scouted 2 rax no gas? You mentioned the spawning pool timing - any other change? Do you still get the roaches?
That is a good Idea I will definitely steal that thanks!
As for the 2 rax this is very dependant on what happened. If I hold off the 2 rax no problem took little to no damage then I will throw down a roach warren most likely but a little later then normal for a couple reasons.
There is the possibliity of 4 rax and I don't want to get a baneling nest even though its such a hard counter to the 4 rax because most of the time they go into reactor hellion but sometimes the occasional 4 rax which roaches do deal with quiet nicely as long as you are not supply capped of course. (at least thats what I have faced lately is hellions are always their next step it seems in the past when I faced it a lot >>).
So I would get the roach warren if I took little to no damage but there is the possiblity I may not use it, if he doesn't make hellions and doesn't try to do any cute timing pushes then I probably will not make any but if I see hellions or he tries a cute timing push I am not prepared for with lings/bane then I will get roaches.
If I take a decent amount of damage I will probably skip the roach warren all together and just hope he doesn't try to do any cute timing attacks or some hellion all in.
For me it depends on how much damage I take. Now i'll be honest since I have started doing this build I have only faced 2 rax twice so I don't have to much experience with 2 rax and on whether to get the roach warren or not.
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I have another question (if you have time for it): how would you deal with reaper openings? Cause I have the impression, from my ladder experience, that they are getting more and more common, and I often have trouble dealing with them...
I guess there are two sides to the question:
1. how do you defend the initial reaper harass? only queens or something else?
2. How does the fact that he opens reaper impacts your roach orientation/timings? do you still go for roaches? at the same time, or later?
Thanks!
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if you go 15 hatch there is like a 20 sec window before the queens pop out where reapers get to your base and can snipe drones.
However Your 2-4 lings pop out NEARLY just in time. So, if you chase the reaper with the slow lings, you can buy time for the queens to defend.
However, if you have 16 hatch, this window is even greater.
Once roaches come out tho. They hard counter reapers even more then helions. However because their rax had a tech lab. It can be more likely for murader all ins.
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On January 30 2012 19:11 Macpo wrote:
I have another question (if you have time for it): how would you deal with reaper openings? Cause I have the impression, from my ladder experience, that they are getting more and more common, and I often have trouble dealing with them...
I guess there are two sides to the question:
1. how do you defend the initial reaper harass? only queens or something else?
2. How does the fact that he opens reaper impacts your roach orientation/timings? do you still go for roaches? at the same time, or later?
Thanks!
With reaper openings since I 16 pool after hatch first there is a small window that he can do some damage but I just run my drones at the natural around while my lings pop within a second or 2 after he gets to my base. He shouldn't do much damage unless you just let him kill your drones or something.
But initial reapers with just queens + initial 4 lings.
I still get a roach warren and make a few roaches to kind of go to the natural of the terran to try to see if he has tanks out or if he has expanded like he should have and what not and keep them at the watch tower for map control. You don't have to get roaches though if they open reaper just because speedlings deal with a couple reapers pretty well.
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Hey guys bumping this for a couple reasons.
Updated the main BO a little bit and added a FAQ at the bottom thanks to Chutoro with the idea  .
I am also throwing in a replay vs a fast 3 CC build where I saw he was taking his third at 9 minutes around and flipped switch going roach/ling/bling and busted him. I am 3-0 when seeing a terran take a fast third that I feel is to greedy but this is the only replay I can find atm and don't feel like looking through 300 replays.
http://www.mediafire.com/?hlkh57537ecoo7n
Any comments/questions just let me know ^^.
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i am not entirely sure if this is answered in a post above, but would you care make a compare/contrast on the build that sometimes DRG uses that is 9OL/15h-15p-17g/2 queens one creep-one inject/28RW/28 2OL 6-7 roaches expand behind it
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I guess you can say...
This is a good aproach
YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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On February 23 2012 23:48 niladorus wrote:
i am not entirely sure if this is answered in a post above, but would you care make a compare/contrast on the build that sometimes DRG uses that is 9OL/15h-15p-17g/2 queens one creep-one inject/28RW/28 2OL 6-7 roaches expand behind it
Hm would you mind linking me to a gsl game of him doing this or a replay or anywhere he has done this. That seems pretty similar to mine if he's taking a third but I haven't seen him do that before.
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i THINK that he did it + Show Spoiler +on the ace macth at this season quarterfinals final match,
edit:so hard to find DRG's replays Q_Q
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On February 24 2012 08:22 niladorus wrote:i THINK that he did it + Show Spoiler +on the ace macth at this season quarterfinals final match, the reason i say i think its because he then turned it into a ling/bling roach allin and i was also doing other stuff at home at the same time, however there is this audio build thing at youtube that takes it to the point. edit:so hard to find DRG's replays Q_Q
Oh well if he's just doing a 2 base all in then its obviously not the same :p. I've never seen a zerg really go roaches and then take a fast third as of yet xD
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On February 24 2012 10:13 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 08:22 niladorus wrote:i THINK that he did it + Show Spoiler +on the ace macth at this season quarterfinals final match, the reason i say i think its because he then turned it into a ling/bling roach allin and i was also doing other stuff at home at the same time, however there is this audio build thing at youtube that takes it to the point. edit:so hard to find DRG's replays Q_Q Oh well if he's just doing a 2 base all in then its obviously not the same :p. I've never seen a zerg really go roaches and then take a fast third as of yet xD
DRG did a roach fast 3rd against gumiho on daybreak, and I'm pretty sure I've seen it a few times from him before (vs marineking on antiga maybe?), and it's also something that Zenio does a lot.
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On January 27 2012 09:00 blade55555 wrote:--------Build order-------- 9 - overlord
10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later)
15 - hatchery
14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well)
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around)
27-29 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later)
Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish
gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later)
2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50
6:10-6:30 - roach warren
as soon as it finishes make 4-5 roaches more if necessary
soon as roaches are out take a third
get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches
go lair on next 100 gas
Soon as you start third take last 2 gases
Not meaning to nitpick, but the build described above is actually wrong (or, at least, it's not what you did in the 'Game 4' replay against the helion marauder).
In the replay you get your roach warren at ~5:30 (not "6:10 - 6:30" as described), and the gas timings work out really nicely so that when your warren finishes you have gas for 4-5 roaches. Following the described build you could actually get zergling speed BEFORE roaches and still have gas for roaches when the warren finishes.
Also, it looks like you are building an evo chamber to help block the helions (built at 6:00 in the rep I watched). I appreciate that the timing for this may not be firm, but it would be good to mention in the OP as otherwise the reader is missing what I think to be important information.
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I am glad I am reading a topic like this.
My friend Nova kept making fun of me for not using Speedlings as my main army and go Roaches quickly, to which I asked him why, since Roaches are a lot better imo.
Of course, banelings are great. But then you might as well make a few lings --> Banelings when you need them, not just have 200/200 lings.
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On March 02 2012 00:38 Hairy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 09:00 blade55555 wrote:--------Build order-------- 9 - overlord
10- drone scout (this is personal preference i'll explain later)
15 - hatchery
14-16- spawning pool (will explain this later as well)
16 or 17 (your preference) - overlord
as soon as pool finishes 4 lings and 2 queens (1 for each tower, 2 to scout around)
27-29 - make a spine (2 on maps with big naturals will explain more later)
Make a third queen as soon as your first 2 finish
gas at 5 minutes if 1 spine, 5:20-5:30 if 2 spines (will explain reasoning later)
2nd gas at about 5:40-5:50
6:10-6:30 - roach warren
as soon as it finishes make 4-5 roaches more if necessary
soon as roaches are out take a third
get ling speed with next 100 gas after roaches
go lair on next 100 gas
Soon as you start third take last 2 gases
Not meaning to nitpick, but the build described above is actually wrong (or, at least, it's not what you did in the 'Game 4' replay against the helion marauder). In the replay you get your roach warren at ~5:30 (not "6:10 - 6:30" as described), and the gas timings work out really nicely so that when your warren finishes you have gas for 4-5 roaches. Following the described build you could actually get zergling speed BEFORE roaches and still have gas for roaches when the warren finishes. Also, it looks like you are building an evo chamber to help block the helions (built at 6:00 in the rep I watched). I appreciate that the timing for this may not be firm, but it would be good to mention in the OP as otherwise the reader is missing what I think to be important information.
Oh that was when I made an adjustement to my roach timing, forgot in that fourth replay I uploaded a week or so after I wrote this. The 5:30 roach timing makes it crush the 1/1/1 marine/hellion drop ^_^. Thanks for pointing it out completely forgot about that.
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EPT
