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On January 28 2012 01:01 Catgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 00:35 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 00:22 Tobberoth wrote:On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong. Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately. lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark. So what you're saying is you can verify they expand (and not marauder hellion allin) behind hellions before they even are out, every game? God you must be good.
im pretty good, and yes, its called drone scouting lol. I played NrGLuckyFool just yesterday who - reactor hellion into 2rax stim marine/marauder scv all-in'd me and i held, so.. instead of being ignorant u should respect my post. I actually dont even know why i bother posting, u guys are saying taking a 5 min 3rd vs terran is bad lol... no wonder u guys are stuck in <masters
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If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
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Very good guide. Interesting how he pointed out that pros got upgrades and speed for roaches, it kind of forces them to make roaches making them less cost effective.
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On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
That is another reason i like to skip the 2spines and delay the 3rd queen in favor of earlier roaches. Roaches can move.
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On January 28 2012 01:32 copacetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 01:01 Catgroove wrote:On January 28 2012 00:35 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 00:22 Tobberoth wrote:On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong. Your post just reeks of unrealistic strategy since I've pretty much never ever seen any pro send a drone to take a third before hellions come.. the terran can just allin and win immediately. lol.. how are they gonna all in you? hellions and scvs? this is a response to reactor hellion EXPAND... and if u havent seen an early 3rd like this well then you just dont watch enough games, its very standard to stop mining gas and take ur 3rd around 5 min mark. So what you're saying is you can verify they expand (and not marauder hellion allin) behind hellions before they even are out, every game? God you must be good. im pretty good, and yes, its called drone scouting lol. I played NrGLuckyFool just yesterday who - reactor hellion into 2rax stim marine/marauder scv all-in'd me and i held, so.. instead of being ignorant u should respect my post. I actually dont even know why i bother posting, u guys are saying taking a 5 min 3rd vs terran is bad lol... no wonder u guys are stuck in <masters
Replay please. Too much talk here.
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I'd rather not post my replays in a thread, but if u want to see the specific replay im referring to you can PM me your info and ill send it to you after work.
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I've opened with similar styles for a long time, with different levels of roach and even ling/bane aggression to go with it. I've even seen Sheth, DRG, and others open this way to great effect. Thanks for the guide :D your analysis was great.
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I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
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Im gonna try this on my friendly Terran mate in some practice matches. Love your youtube channel and commentary. Keep up the good work !
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On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee  . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural?
Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D.
On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.
I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them.
On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory.
Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><.
As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol).
On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas.
Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it.
On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo.
You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore.
Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count.
But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
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On January 28 2012 04:26 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D. Show nested quote +On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><. As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol). Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas. Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo. You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore. Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count. But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily.
I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
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And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
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On January 28 2012 04:37 copacetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D. On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them. On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><. As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol). On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas. Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it. On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo. You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore. Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count. But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily. I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot.
It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far.
Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there.
But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes.
On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote:
And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho.
I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
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On January 28 2012 04:40 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:37 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 04:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D. On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them. On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><. As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol). On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas. Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it. On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo. You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore. Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count. But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily. I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot. It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far. Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there. But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes. Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote:
And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho. I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA).
You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans.
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On January 28 2012 04:45 copacetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:40 blade55555 wrote:On January 28 2012 04:37 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 04:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D. On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them. On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><. As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol). On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas. Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it. On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo. You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore. Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count. But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily. I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot. It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far. Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there. But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes. On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote:
And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho. I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA). You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans.
Sigh I am sorry but it just doesn't work. I can send my drone early I would have to start my third at 4 minutes which would be retarded to do for many reasons. I just don't see how you can generally say getting a third before hellions (which is like 4-4:45 plopping it down) is even viable. That's taking a huge risk and can no way be considered safe. You won't even know if the terran has taken his natural yet or if he's even making it.
Watched a few of my replays to see drone timings and I was incorrect I am almost always 12+ drones and have a period of time where I am 15-20 ahead as it should be.
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On January 28 2012 05:04 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 04:45 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 04:40 blade55555 wrote:On January 28 2012 04:37 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 04:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D. On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them. On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><. As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol). On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas. Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it. On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo. You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore. Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count. But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily. I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot. It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far. Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there. But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes. On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote:
And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho. I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA). You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans. Sigh I am sorry but it just doesn't work. I can send my drone early I would have to start my third at 4 minutes which would be retarded to do for many reasons. I just don't see how you can generally say getting a third before hellions (which is like 4-4:45 plopping it down) is even viable. That's taking a huge risk and can no way be considered safe. You won't even know if the terran has taken his natural yet or if he's even making it. Watched a few of my replays to see drone timings and I was incorrect I am almost always 12+ drones and have a period of time where I am 15-20 ahead as it should be.
Hellions always poke the natural first, they dont go to where your 3rd usually is. You can say it doesnt work all you want, but if you're denying opening roaches instead of drones doesnt affect your economy, well then i dont know what to say.
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On January 28 2012 05:11 copacetic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2012 05:04 blade55555 wrote:On January 28 2012 04:45 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 04:40 blade55555 wrote:On January 28 2012 04:37 copacetic wrote:On January 28 2012 04:26 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 20:38 T.O.P. wrote:On January 27 2012 18:20 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed. Well again if I see cloaked banshee's i'm not just going to keep doing what I'm doing and not getting lair till super late. I do adjust if I see something like that. Weird thing is lately nobody has even been hiding their expansions from me. Their plopping them straight down at the natural so I don't even have to worry about 1 base cloaked banshee . Have you played any terrans that started a tech lab on their starport as soon as the hellions see the roaches by your natural? Nope I have yet to see any terran go banshee vs me when seeing me open roaches which is why I will again be having a couple terran friends do it vs me so I can make proper adjustements :D. On January 27 2012 23:52 copacetic wrote:
did not read any comments - but ill post my thoughts about why going roaches is painful in the early game
It really hurts your economy - I'm all for opening speed first - ex: 15 hatch / 15 gas / 15 pool something like that. Going roaches + taking your 2nd gas really makes your 3rd base delayed, which is counter productive considering you're talking about taking an "early" 3rd. If you open speed first and send a drone to your 3rd base before hellions come, you can drop it before they can deny the drone. As we all know hellions are not too great against buildings =D
I agree about the map control aspect, but as a zerg i'd way prefer early economy over early map control, you really should be dedicating any gas u do get to upgrades and lair, and you shouldn't be grabbing more than 1 gas until after lair is finished. Plus once u have a fully saturated 2 base and waiting for 3rd to pop, you can produce enough lings not to KILL the hellions, but to push them back and regain map control, and the creep spread part, well, if you aren't pushing creep with spines/queens then you're doing it wrong.
It really doesn't hurt your economy that much at all. I still maintain a 10+ worker lead in the parts I should be. Also my third going down at 8 minutes is way better then a third going down at 10-11 minutes while waiting for whatever tier 2 tech you are going (imo). As for your third before hellions come what? I have never seen any pro zerg do this let alone have the money for it before hellions come (hellions come at 4:30-5 minutes if you are taking a third that early vs terran thats suicide lol). If that method worked I am pretty sure I would have seen it done by zerg pro's which I have yet to see because hellions always check the third if the terran is any good.I short you have to overproduce lings if you are looking to regain map control which to me is larva inefficient. I can make 4 roaches with 4 larva and use all the rest of my larva on drones which to me is better then having to use most if not all my larva to make a round of lings to drive off 4-6 hellions (which even then he still maintains map control). In short I still see flaws in those ling only methods which is why I don't do them but it works obivously because zergs still win with them. On January 28 2012 01:31 ShinyGerbil wrote:
Cool guide, I use a similar build very often. One big problem i've come across is a fast 1-1-1 marine hellion drop on 1 base. The drop comes around 6:50 (your build doesn't have roaches until 7:42) with 3-4 hellions and 6-8 marines with a medivac to elevator into your main. so far I haven't found an adequate adaptation to dealing with this, since when you see no reactor on the factory you need to be prepared for both this and cloak banshee, which means you also need an earlier lair so you can't also afford the gas for earlier roaches. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on how to adapt vs no reactor factory. Yes I have faced the 1-1-1 marine/hellion drop I think once but I had roaches out in time just not enough (only 4 which you need more then) and it was an error on my part not having an overlord to see so I kept droning while he unloaded in the smoke on antiga lol ><. As for the adapt what I would do is attempt to sacrifice an overlord if you can to scout it. This is pretty tricky if you can see it coming you should be able to get the roaches and a few lings to support them and hold fine. I just dont' have enough experience though with the drop but I know I experienced it yesterday but I had 4 roaches out when he did it (not sure if I got my roach warren earlier that game or not lol). On January 28 2012 01:33 Olsson wrote:
If you go 15 hatch 16/17 pool vs a reaper bunker rush you will lose. So don't go 17 pool just because you see a gas. Uh incorrect you will not lose. I have been doing this 16/17 pool and reapers have never killed me. They got like 1 drone but your queens come out in time and you can deny the bunker just fine. I have faced it a few times but I want to say this is false from experience in dealing with it. On January 28 2012 02:10 statikg wrote:
I think that if you open with just a few roaches you will be behind but unable to punish a very fast in base 3rd CC. But it will probably work well against normal reactor hellion expand. Its kinda like a 3gate expand imo. You won't be behind unless you count a faster third and having a 10+ worker lead behind then I don't know what being even or ahead is in zvt anymore. Also you could punish a very fast 3rd bace CC. If they do it very fast you can just do a roach/ling/baneling bust and you will win. (I have done this on shattered vs a terran who took the gold as a really fast third base which I saw so I could prepare and busted him). This is of course youa re doing the very fast which means you will not have much defense for roach/ling/baneling in terms of tank count. But the zerg has to see the third pretty fast or it'll be to late but you can punish it if he takes it greedily. I'd like to know how you have money for 4-6 roaches but not 300 minerals for a hatchery especially if u remove drones from gas? And you dont overproduce lings, you defend with spines + queens and you are making lings anyway since they are amazing vs almost everything terran except BFH. you should not spend 150 on roach warren + 8-12 supply + 300-450 / 100-150 in the early game, it does set you back, a lot. It really does not set you that far behind when you don't rush them. I have the money for 300 minerals for a hatchery but hard to get the hatchery down when hellions kill it before it gets that far. Ok so you are making 4 queens to defend vs hellions and moving your spines so you can creep spread? Yeah not a big fan of that method which is why I don't do it I feel thats slower then not even having hellions there. But again if being 10+ workers ahead is setting you back alot then whatever its working vs good terran players and i'm not behind at all while getting a faster third then waiting to start it at 10-11 minutes. On January 28 2012 04:38 copacetic wrote:
And i don't mean to bash but the players you are playing are probably masters on NA which doesnt mean much imho. I want you to read the OP. You obviously haven't. I only play on the korean server. I play HIGH master terran players on the korean server. I even play GM's on the korean server. Please read the OP before making a false statement. I don't play on NA/EU because the average player isn't very good especially compared to the korean server (EU is of course very superior to NA). You send the drone to your 3rd base before the hellions come, quite simple. You take your 2nd gas way too early, you should be working off 1 gas and massing only drones, thats how you get your drone count to about 65-70 for when your 3rd pops. If you have 2 gasses working, you have all this gas but not really using it, just banking it for spire/infestion/upgs. All im saying is that ur drone count is severly hindered if u open roach, of course u will still be ahead of the terran, but a 20 drone lead instead of 10 drone lead is massive, esp if u are playing good terrans. Sigh I am sorry but it just doesn't work. I can send my drone early I would have to start my third at 4 minutes which would be retarded to do for many reasons. I just don't see how you can generally say getting a third before hellions (which is like 4-4:45 plopping it down) is even viable. That's taking a huge risk and can no way be considered safe. You won't even know if the terran has taken his natural yet or if he's even making it. Watched a few of my replays to see drone timings and I was incorrect I am almost always 12+ drones and have a period of time where I am 15-20 ahead as it should be. Hellions always poke the natural first, they dont go to where your 3rd usually is. You can say it doesnt work all you want, but if you're denying opening roaches instead of drones doesnt affect your economy, well then i dont know what to say.
Well I imagine if you play as good terrans as you say they should be punishing that because it is very punishable if you are taking a third that early. I know Korean terrans will punish that. They wont' let you get away with a ballsy third hoping he doesn't scout it lol. You can say it works all you want but there must be a reason no zerg I have ever seen does that.
It doesn't like I said if being 12 or so workers ahead is putting you behind economy then zerg is always behind in economy to terran then (which isn't true). I just don't know what to say to you for you to understand, you obviously didn't read the OP or watch the replays and are just theory crafting right now. Where I have replays, showing proof of what I do and how it works and have experience in like every situation with this build except 2 base cloak banshee.
Again I am not saying my build is the best build either just an FYI just a build I like more then other opening zvt builds as of right now :D.
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i am also not saying your build is bad, but how can an early 3rd like that be punished? a reactor hellion expand cant punish an early 3rd. And its not like you have to saturate right away, its there for production and is up for when it's safe to transfer/saturate. Also, no i didnt see your replays, and i know what skill level your at (if u are the sPsblade guy) I've played you before. Also being ahead 10-12 workers is not "ahead" of terran cause 2 mules equates to that drone lead. This isn't theorycrafting, I can provide u replays if u want to check out exactly what I'm talking about. I've stopped 1 base hellion/rauder/scv stim timing with this early 3rd so i know that it's definitely safe vs any weird 2 base timings.
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Nice guide Blade! I have been making a few roaches to help with reactor hellions but its nice for someone to write it up nicely. Nothing makes me more angry then seeing my lings/drones fried! 
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I actually found myself doing the build Destiny uses for ZvT, and just powering roach ling off of two base. I then got ling upgrades and went into infestors.
However, I had the same problems that you suggested. If the terran went tanks into a fast 3rd, I would be in big trouble.
In addition, I could't creep spread because of the late ling speed.
This build solves exactly the problems I was having. Tyvm!
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EPT
