[G]Zerg vs Terran A roach opener - Page 2

On January 27 2012 16:47 Holzmann wrote:
I haven't watched the replays yet, so forgive me if this question is answered by one of them, but what do you tend to do on Tal'Darim? Do you take your usual fourth (if you're in the 11/12 o'clock position, the base to your right at 12 o'clock) as your third when you start pushing back against hellions, or do you try to break down the rocks at your usual third?

On January 27 2012 17:01 K3Nyy wrote:
Didn't a lot of Zerg used to do this a while back? Make Roaches to deny Hellions and then go back into doing whatever they were doing. Sheth was one of the first to do this too I think.

Anyway, great guide. Informational and to the point! :D

On January 27 2012 17:34 Tobberoth wrote:
The obvious drawback of this tactic is the much later lair and thus much later mutas... how much later will your mutas hit the terran base on average? Reason I'm wondering is because with standard gas around 17-23 supply, your mutas will generally hit the terran base by just over 10 minutes, when most terrans wont have turrets and will just have picked their tech path, giving a great scouting advantage and good potential to do damage. Will this build delay mutas too much to get that information in time?

On January 27 2012 17:44 enykie wrote:
what about getting earlier roaches to skip the spines? When i play vs terra i get a gas @ about 17 and a 24 roachwarren and only build about 4 roaches, with them i'm save vs hellions/reapers and early pushes are easy holdable with roach/ling and i'm able to get a earlier third like you. (diamondlevel)

Could that be that if terra sees spines and roaches, that knows he is very save and instantly adds a cc?

On January 27 2012 17:54 Macpo wrote:
yeah, I have been doing a similar build for a while (at low master level), and I feel it's pretty convenient! especially I like the macro variation of roaches opening.

My main difference is I would stick to tier one units for a much longer time, to get a better eco (and later tech). especially, I would be doing double upgrades before going for lair, and defending any early pushes with mass lings. So I stay on one gas, but get pretty quickly a 4 hatches / 4queens structure. I would be really interested that you tell me what you think about it blade thanks!


here would be my bo
16 hatch
17 pool (when gas scouted)
@100% pool : take gas, make two queens.
@100% extractor: throw down roach warren.
make four roaches (from 36 to 44 food).
make speed @ 100 gas

From then,
1. drones up to 60. That will give you 3 saturated mineral lines. then make only lings. The idea is to defend any early push with mass lings only, which I feel is really easy to do (I mean really easy).
2. make macro hatch and 2 more queens when accumulating minerals.
3. stay on one gas, throw down two evolution chambers, and +1 melee / +1 carapace with upgrades asap. and then only make lair. When starting lair, take two more gases, so that you can make bnest and speebanes, and +2/+2 upgrades quickly.Then you can transition into either mutas or infestors depending on his playstyle.

btw, why putting a spine early? I never really feel the necessity to do so if you have a good timing with roach warren.

Thanks!

On January 27 2012 18:04 Arisen wrote:
I've played around with this some, and it definitely is strong. However, these are some questions/answers I have about using this build:

1) Especially on maps with close air, do you like using this build into muta? I feel that delaying the lair at all versus close air to be super worrying because people are super fucking annoying with early drops (especially lately). By delaying your muta tech it seems you're sacrificing a bit of that early map control anyway because you need to be close to home in case he runs 2 medivacs into your base. The creep is definitively and advantage, but do you feel you'd rather do this build instead of 2 base 3 hatch muta in these positions, especially considering how strong 2 base muta is on close air?

2) I like super early burrow. Do you feel it fits well in with this playstyle? I don't have too much experience with roach openings, so spending extra gas and having a delayed lair is sort of foreign to me. Do you feel like you need that gas going elsewhere, or is investing the 100 safe at that time?

3) Macro Hatch. When do you take yours and how do you deal with the lack of that early larvae? Traditional 3 hatch 2 base build seem to give you a few more larvae because of when you take the macro hatch (or a lot, depending on how fast you take your own 4th hatch), how does this effect your play from standard play?

4) How do you deal with non-standard early pressures? Bane speed seems to hege it pretty close with a standard 2 base tank push, but how do you deal with earlier tank/marine pressures with such late bane speed/mutas?

That's all I have for now. I'm going to try this out some more on ladder tommorrow, I haven't really used it much for a few months and a lot has changed since then, so I'm hoping for some fun games!

On January 27 2012 18:17 T.O.P. wrote:
The problem is that terran can get cloaked banshees and you won't be able to take a 3rd until you get mutas out. Which are gonna be super delayed.

On January 27 2012 18:29 Tobberoth wrote:

How do you see them, do you have some form of overlord saccing for this? Obviously starting lair once you see cloaked banshees will be too late, so I'm assuming you have some reasonably safe way to scout this?

On January 27 2012 18:29 Kisezik wrote:
i dont think T.O.P is talking about 1 base cloak banshee, terrans can go reactor hellion expand into starport cloak banshee to deny the zergs third while taking a fast third themselves. This kinda forces you to get mutas out, so you cant really take a third anyway.