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On January 04 2012 18:13 Exempt. wrote:
completely disagree your fighting the turtle picture, as well as the basis of your concept, (the idea is you've fully neglected the resource of time), in fact your ETA doesnt even include time in it. But considering you hit so many key areas and used both logic as well as common sense approaches this is a very good guide to basic understanding of the fundamentals of this game that are widely skipped on.
As I see it, this is not necessarily true. Any sort of ranking like this almost has to be instantaneous, i.e. this is the situation as this particular moment in time. The ranking you have (in case it’s the scoring system you don’t agree with) might be completely different 0.1 second from now. Time can also be seen in a discrete form, i.e. I aim at attacking once I have this or that advantage (i.e. tech/upgrade advantage). In this case the framework described here could also apply as you use it to predict a future scenario.
It is of course possible to describe and reason upon concepts like this in real/continuous time (the game is a Real Time Strategy game). However, it is not really effective as it might change very quickly (e.g. a whole bunch of upgrades kick in at the same time etc) and you also don’t have the complete information (even if you can know your own situation, you can only guesstimate your opponents situation).
My point is (even though the post might seem to be a bit on the rambling side) that time is an important resource in the game but it does not come easily into a framework like this. The OP might benefit from a discussion on the topic but I’m not sure it would change what is already in there.
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Welcome, friend - stay a while and listen!
So nostalgic ^^
The guide is very clean looking and well organized, but as a masters player I can't say I learned anything. I'm sure this will be good for lower level players, to present them to the concepts they need to be aware of, as explored in this guide.
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On January 04 2012 18:33 ShotgunMike wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:13 Exempt. wrote:
completely disagree your fighting the turtle picture, as well as the basis of your concept, (the idea is you've fully neglected the resource of time), in fact your ETA doesnt even include time in it. But considering you hit so many key areas and used both logic as well as common sense approaches this is a very good guide to basic understanding of the fundamentals of this game that are widely skipped on. As I see it, this is not necessarily true. Any sort of ranking like this almost has to be instantaneous, i.e. this is the situation as this particular moment in time. The ranking you have (in case it’s the scoring system you don’t agree with) might be completely different 0.1 second from now. Time can also be seen in a discrete form, i.e. I aim at attacking once I have this or that advantage (i.e. tech/upgrade advantage). In this case the framework described here could also apply as you use it to predict a future scenario. It is of course possible to describe and reason upon concepts like this in real/continuous time (the game is a Real Time Strategy game). However, it is not really effective as it might change very quickly (e.g. a whole bunch of upgrades kick in at the same time etc) and you also don’t have the complete information (even if you can know your own situation, you can only guesstimate your opponents situation). My point is (even though the post might seem to be a bit on the rambling side) that time is an important resource in the game but it does not come easily into a framework like this. The OP might benefit from a discussion on the topic but I’m not sure it would change what is already in there.
Fair enough but isn't your point that continuous time changes the ETA very quickly in support of my conclusions? Hidden information does weaken it like you said though. But in a more idealistic and less perfectionistic world wouldn't gameplay be more dependent on the fluctuations of ETA instead of it in ETA specific situations in itself?
Looking at the game like you guys are in turn-based chesslike fashion definitely is favorable as it allows for logistical rationalizations but at the same time it's making generalizations on gameplay that aren't in support of time constant fluctuations.
Im interested in your guys opinions that explain these ETA fluctuations from continuous time in a manner different than mine because IMO high-fluctuations make the value of time ever more significant. The point im ultimately making is that this game of starcraft II that we play is very complex (which I think just about everyone agrees with) and is much more difficult than just the idea of ETA pillars.
Will check this in the morning for any interesting ideas ~thanks 
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this is SOOOOO wierd. Earlier today in the shower for some reason the idea of categorizing builds based on their investments on, word for word, Tech, army and econ. And then analysing some losses and judging both players' econ, army and tech to decide if the push was good at said time or not, and to conclude if, given the same circumstances were observed in another replay, if i should set up the same timing attack, hit later or go allin immediately, based on what was learned from each catagories progression and the effects it has the game overall.
Cool!
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While reading this, I had no clue english was your second language!
Interesting read, an interesting, nicely simplified thought process to go through when making in game decisions.
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well written posts like this are the reason why i check team liquid daily! Thank you!
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awesome writeup ♥
thank you for the effort i think its going to help people a lot
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Now I win here and I win there.
WINNING!
Tnx for this post
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Dude...you can totally speak/type English with a level of competency I rarely even see native speakers implement. Outstanding for someone with multi lingual abilities, of course, you were certainly helped by the fact that English is in part a Germanic language. Nonetheless! Excellent work. I'll be PM'ing you with some suggestions to make it sound even better as there are a few parts that, while being grammatically correct, simply employ word combinations not really used by competent, high-level native speakers.
In regards to the article itself....just wow. A glistening gem of wisdom in a world of knowledge that is truly vast beyond conception. Those numbers regarding Chess are REALLY eye-opening. I mean, if that number of "moves" are possible at such an early point in the game of Chess (4 moves in) just IMAGINE the numbers involved with SC2? My god...the math involved is...staggering to try and imagine.
Well done and keep up the excellent work. You have decidedly expanded my mind and I look forward to any future endeavors of yours.
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Really interesting guide, fun to see how it fits with what's been said by others, for example Day9 talking about starving an opponent and how that red/green example you mentioned can be ideal if you switch to investing in army and outproducing the red to starve him. Some good fundamentals
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Really fantastic read, mate.
I've always liked the approach of identifying the key aspects of a game and try to focus on them(in this: macro and mechanics) instead of going in over my head and spend too much time reading about what fotm-build is considered OP and how to counter it.
Very insightful
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nice guide! and your english is beautiful, more refined than most of my american friends. cheers!
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Woooow, I read 1/3 of this and it has gotten me to think about my games (I am only Gold).
I will read it all when I gett home, looks great, and I can already say that I will learn from this.
Thank you!
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Nice grammar, great wording, will read again! 10/10
This was really what I needed - been losing a lot lately, knew exactly why but was just to upset to figure out what I could have done differently. Especially the part about not needing to be as many bases ahead as possible as that would could into my army-production capabilities.
Danke fuer den Guide, hat mir echt geholfen
Darf man fragen, warum du im Krankenhaus warst?
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Nice writeup, lots of things to learn here.
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Vatican City State334 Posts
I think any ETA concept needs to really be ETATI to succeed in practice, with Time and Information as equally important resources. The turtle example is kind of silly without the inclusion of the time resource for many reasons.
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To all the positive feedback - thank you <3! It would be too much clutter if I'd name anybody of you, but you know who you are ^.^
I just wanted to mention that I haven't made the Charlie Sheen Header, the awesome Neoreon did it and he's very grateful for all the feedback you give him for that, he's a little genius when it comes to graphics <3
@Zariel - pretty good example. Simply put you only get enough workers to be economically ahead and use this situation to overpower your opponent with basic units
@Lotar - Good point - for this example its meant to be early in the game I hoped that the "No major battle has occured" and the fact that theres no major army blob for green on the minimap should be good pointers, but I guess I have to make that point more clear.
@CrazyF1r3f0x - Thank you! It always feels clumsy to write something lengthy in a foreign language, I'm glad it came out well
@RoboBob - Your point is absolutely valid but your personal preference should already be reflected by your opening choice And there is a huge differenc between 1Rax Expand and 3 Gate Expand vs 1 Rax Expand because the 3 Gate is designed to either hold 2/3Rax-Aggression while expanding or applying pressure yourself so its a situation where you are naturally ahead in a macro game, that doesn't apply for your 1Rax-Expansion
So, yes, please hold on to your personal strenghts ^.^
@dbald27 - will do with the next overhaul <3
@warblob004 - That is true, I should include an example that makes this clear <3
@HawaiianPig - Thanks a lot, I'm glad that you've enjoyed the read!
@Drxz - I'm aroused
@Exempt. - Time is a tricky thing when it comes to this approach I've constructed for myself. My current opinion is that my ETA-system only allows me to create a snapshot of the current state of the game and the ability to foresee a couple of things that will happen in the next minute(s) - I'm not sure how I could implement time in the sense of "keeping track of it in assessing a situation" because both players would always have the same amount of time - I could see some sort of "foreshadowing" in the sen
I will try to muse about this a little bit more to find a way to expand the system on other ways
@Yoshi Kirishima - Glad you liked it! I guess that hugely differs from player to player - I know silverplayers that have easily grasped this concept and I have some buddies in masters league that have never thought about these basic ideas - the beautiful thing about Starcraft is that there are a thousand ways to approach it and be succesful with it
@AnalThermometer - check the answer for Exempt. (and Lotar for the turtle-bit ^^) - I will try to think about expanding the model to implement a couple of other thoughts. For now I'd say that in my current model information isn't valued as something that you need to measure but is more or less a prerequesition to make this kind of assessment - you can't know your opponents ETA without the informations about him.
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Seems like you have invested a lot of time in this thorough writeup, thanks, was a fun read!
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Hello Felo,
Thank you for this brilliant concept of thinking! It is something I'll try and incorporate in my games from now on. The first thought that hit me was, that it also sort of explains in an easy way, how new players should react when scouting, what to look after and why.
However what I like the most about this guide is, that it pure KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. 3 things to keep track on (day9 ref) is the way to go.
Of course this is a way of thinking that can be personalised by, say incorporating time into the equation and other factors (I think someone mentioned Production), but the fundamental trinity of ETA will be, I think, a nice catalyst for new players to become better.
Regards and thanks
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EPT
