EPT[G] How to win - The ETA-Concept - Page 6
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Steamboatlol
United States161 Posts
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Loophole
United States867 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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XChoke
Australia45 Posts
really like the idea that you can only think about 3 core concepts at the root level. Their is too much to think about otherwise, and it's easy to focus on the wrong thing and make basic mistakes because of it if you don't have some basic core principles to follow. After reading the points about Production it got me thinking about the Economy Pillar in general. I play Zerg and to me I don't think about Economy as much as I think about Resource. For Zerg in my mind there are three Resources (Minerals, Gas and Larva). I need to make decisions about what I need to invest in, more minerals or more larva production. So from my perspective I naturally tend to think of a Resource Pillar then depending on my strategic choices I can branch out into Minerals, Gas or Production and Map Vision (yes I consider Map Vision a resource too). If I have full Map Vision and you have none then I know a lot more about the overall state of the game. I think the same concept of Resource applies to the other two races where really their 3rd resource is "Production" (Barracks, Factories, Warp Gates etc). You can choose to invest into building "Resources" which can mean at a strategic level you choose to make 7 Gateway's or it could mean you want more probes on Gas and expansions. The example I'm thinking of is a 2 Base timing like 7-Gate Blink Stalker. The person will invest in their economy (Minerals) and once that is down they heavily invest in their production facilties to support their switch to Army and aggression. R++++++ T+ A+ Then once the attack begins it transitions to R+ T++ A+++++++ I'd like to know your thoughts about Resources including Map Vision and Production. Either way I like that you've kept it simple! Awesome post!!! | ||
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sylace
United States18 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
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aXXeS
Canada5 Posts
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DMII
Germany92 Posts
On January 05 2012 09:43 XChoke wrote: The example I'm thinking of is a 2 Base timing like 7-Gate Blink Stalker. The person will invest in their economy (Minerals) and once that is down they heavily invest in their production facilties to support their switch to Army and aggression. R++++++ T+ A+ Then once the attack begins it transitions to R+ T++ A+++++++ I'd like to know your thoughts about Resources including Map Vision and Production. Either way I like that you've kept it simple! Awesome post!!! I think you misunderstood the concept a little. The pillars the OP describes are not supposed to go down, except for maybe the army one. As described there, they represent the current situation you are in, which means, that they all should get bigger over time (otherwise you are probably doing something wrong), what you describe seems more like illustrating how much of your income is spent into the different aspects at a given point of time. | ||
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
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Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
A good example to illustrate my point is Protoss defending 1/1/1 with a very fast nexus. In this situation, it is clear Protoss is allowed to be greedy because the nexus will pay for itself. If e 1/1/1 doesn't come by the 15 minute mark, there is nothing wrong with expanding again, even vs 1 base Terran. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
I think ETA is a great way to simplify for learners. The interchange between ETA -- how those pillars interrelate on a moment to moment basis and throughout the game, depending on map etc -- offers a lot of fertile space that can be gradually sloped for intermediate learners. Or it could be the subject of very involved and heady discussion on very fine points. Anyway thanks for your effort, keep it up. | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
A lot of correct answers have already been given ot questions asked, so I'll focus on the one question that has not been covered: On January 05 2012 07:13 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Felo I have a question. Maybe the answer is obvious but I still would like to hear your opinion. What is your reaction if the ETA meter of your enemy looks something like this: E+++ T+++++++ A+++? Like a Terran who goes heavy with Banshees and BFH? Doing something like this basically implies a simple idea - he wants to use tech to cut down your economy as this will cut down the value of your army as soon as his attack hits. There are two key concepts to this: a.) It is absolutely okay to invest something to deflect the BFHs without damage (Like placing buildings to wall-off without needing them immediately, pumping several observers, spores, etc) - they invest into something to hurt your economy, you pay to safe your economy, nothing happens b.) Your opponent will try to attack you at a certain point (As in cloaked banshees -> 1/1/1) which means that we should fall back to our ETA-Concept in the sense that we get something like this: E++++ T+++ A+++++ Note that we slightly edged out an economical lead, only adding enough tech to deter his harrass (the Tech-points could also be invested into E for more structures that form a wall, this really depends on the match-up and the form of harrass) and invest the rest into our army to overpower him - note that we need a lead in army value as our army regularly won't be as advanced as his will be - this is the reason why our economy needs to be superior. So in conclusion: he invests into T to hurt our E, we invest into T to protect our E and outmatch his army afterwards. | ||
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ApocAlypsE007
Israel1007 Posts
On January 05 2012 22:53 Felo wrote: + Show Spoiler + Thanks for all the feedback! A lot of correct answers have already been given ot questions asked, so I'll focus on the one question that has not been covered: On January 05 2012 07:13 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Felo I have a question. Maybe the answer is obvious but I still would like to hear your opinion. What is your reaction if the ETA meter of your enemy looks something like this: E+++ T+++++++ A+++? Like a Terran who goes heavy with Banshees and BFH? Doing something like this basically implies a simple idea - he wants to use tech to cut down your economy as this will cut down the value of your army as soon as his attack hits. There are two key concepts to this: a.) It is absolutely okay to invest something to deflect the BFHs without damage (Like placing buildings to wall-off without needing them immediately, pumping several observers, spores, etc) - they invest into something to hurt your economy, you pay to safe your economy, nothing happens b.) Your opponent will try to attack you at a certain point (As in cloaked banshees -> 1/1/1) which means that we should fall back to our ETA-Concept in the sense that we get something like this: E++++ T+++ A+++++ Note that we slightly edged out an economical lead, only adding enough tech to deter his harrass (the Tech-points could also be invested into E for more structures that form a wall, this really depends on the match-up and the form of harrass) and invest the rest into our army to overpower him - note that we need a lead in army value as our army regularly won't be as advanced as his will be - this is the reason why our economy needs to be superior. So in conclusion: he invests into T to hurt our E, we invest into T to protect our E and outmatch his army afterwards. Thank you for the answer ^_^ | ||
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weikor
Austria580 Posts
Youve made this point, but its just so important. With this you KNOW where your opponent is in army size The concept, especially one that lowerleague players dont realise is that with equal mechanics , you can always deduct what your opponent can have. This is easyest in mirror MUs. Example If you have 0 minerals, havent been pylon blocked and have been making constant probes then things like : If you have 5 stalkers and your opponent has 8, you should be ahead in a) production buildings or b) Economy (or both) Your opponent simply cant have been making more stuff than you without cutting it elsewhere. Or if you scout a terran army as protoss, with enough experience especially to the 10 minute mark, you should always have a feel for the army he has. If you scout his base, and he has "too little" - scout hidden expo, prepare for drops or huge tech play. it kinda translates to There is at most "+++++++" available to players at the 6 minute mark | ||
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UmiNotsuki
United States633 Posts
One thing I really do disagree with is your little quiz about the turtle. In a realistic situation, the green player will almost always have the advantage in that situation. Granted, I don't know the race of the green player other than "not Zerg" (though I would extrapolate from his building placement that he is likely Protoss,) but with such an insurmountably massive economy, the green player could stand to lose a couple expansions and still come out strongly on top if he manages to EVENTUALLY stop his opponent's inevitable push. The point is valid, players who expand more slowly will generally have larger armies and/or better tech, but in a 2 base vs. 6 base situation the advantage of the lower econ player is likely totally null. I'd wager green could put down 20 gateways and just go mass, 100% chargelot and still come out on top based on his behemoth of an economic advantage. | ||
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ElemUnit
United States38 Posts
going to share this with a friend that's having trouble in the ladder, much better than I can explain | ||
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CountZero71
Germany89 Posts
Again such a great work! Will definitely help to succeed with my New Year resolution! | ||
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Felo
Germany392 Posts
On January 06 2012 05:24 weikor wrote: Great guide Youve made this point, but its just so important. With this you KNOW where your opponent is in army size The concept, especially one that lowerleague players dont realise is that with equal mechanics , you can always deduct what your opponent can have. This is easyest in mirror MUs. Example If you have 0 minerals, havent been pylon blocked and have been making constant probes then things like : If you have 5 stalkers and your opponent has 8, you should be ahead in a) production buildings or b) Economy (or both) Your opponent simply cant have been making more stuff than you without cutting it elsewhere. Or if you scout a terran army as protoss, with enough experience especially to the 10 minute mark, you should always have a feel for the army he has. If you scout his base, and he has "too little" - scout hidden expo, prepare for drops or huge tech play. it kinda translates to There is at most "+++++++" available to players at the 6 minute mark I really love your point about the maximum amount of score that a player can have <3 In ladder its hard to use tho because yuo never really know how good your opponent truly is. In games against someone you know its quite useful tho And thank you for your feedback, UmiNotsuki! I will probably have to rephrase that example and pick another picture to make the case more clear but you can generally say that it is possible to take more bases/bolster your economy more but it is an unneccesary risk when your opponent is trapped like this/plans to do an all-in push. Sometimes long-term-plans need to be canceled because there will be no long-term, i.e. I had a game before I went to the hospital where I started double upgrades, was on 2/2, had just started 3/3 and suddenly saw that the Terran I was playing against brought all his SCVs for a last attack, so I canceled the upgrades and proceeded to get as many units for that as possible to hold th attack - maybe I would have held without those few zealots and sentries but its a risk that I don't need to take. | ||
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C0olGuyPaul
Sweden17 Posts
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CodeskyE
United States777 Posts
great work by the way! | ||
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