I appreciate the positive feedback so many have given, you are welcome.
I'm going to be editing a few things:
1. Adding a section about stalemating against drone all-ins. 1 game against bad habit isn't really representative of anything, but it did show, that when a GM executes the build, they can possibly out-micro you and kill all your lings when they hatch, so I will address that. That was definitely the best execution of the drone all-in I've ever seen, which further goes to show that Bad_habit got to GM by doing a build perfectly (even if it relies on the opponent's mistakes, he made sure to make none himself), and you can't simply just get to GM by 6 pooling - he's clearly a good player. I have to say that even Masters I've come across rarely do the 6 pool absolutely perfectly, and when I was asking for volunteers for the replay section I did, I had to say no to diamond and lower because, the diamonds and lower I did try it with, I had to spend literally over an hour teaching them what to do - with masters I had to really only play 2-3 games with to tell them what to do before they got it semi-right.
2. Going to talk about putting 2 spines down in the infinite ling section, since you'll have the money and lings aren't going to help you anyways, and that may be a bit easier, I suppose, for people who have trouble with the micro or execution. Should help with lower level players or those who haven't been able to practice much.
3. Emphasize importance of a spine against drone all-inners and how important that scouting drone is, and that you can lose by not sending a drone out.
May edit a few things too. I don't want to make it sound easier than it really is, I'm not here to give anyone the wrong impression. It's not always easy to beat a perfectly executed 6 pool, but generally if you are diamond on ladder, you won't run into that, ever, but still...
thanks dude, the tip about using the slightly further back mineral patch to stack up on has really helped me i couldnt work out why sometimes my drone stackign qworked really well and other times failed miserably... well that is why !!! also the tip of pool placement has also helped me a lot , (only a gold noobie) in my league i see a lot of 6 pools + spines/drone allins . Thanks for taking the time to help us out
yea, no problem. I figured out about the pool thing from re-watching the kryix vs losira game the millionth time. I kept losing my pool before I could ever get a spine or ling out, and I'd never have any money at all when it popped because everytime he attacked my sim city pool I spent so much time running out, and then he'd back off. You'll notice that losira and nestea always tuck their pools in ZvZ.
Updated a lot in regards to stalemating, and the drone all-in section.
I did a lot of work in the unit tester, and it's quite surprising how well 18 drones do against 10 lings + 6 drones + spine. Bad habit and I have been talking a bit, and I don't think he's aware how badly 10 lings + 6 drones does against 18 drones with the support of just 2-4 more units.
Also discussed stalemating. Now, if you totally make blunders and get outplayed (because that's the only way it would happen that you can't get at least 2 lings out), you can at least stalemate the game. However, the bad habit pooler can also force a stalemate, so I discuss that too.
I also added our replay - even though I didn't know about stalemating or what I was doing exactly (i mean I did sort of) in that game, I added it because I actually did the right response after making a bunch of mistakes (mistakes bad habit claims aren't mistakes, but whatever, he claims he can make sure no more than 2 lings can get out, but I prove that 2 lings is all you need, and the mistakes were very possible mistakes that could occur if the opponent is a GM doing the pool to you, so I think it's informative if I add it and discuss it, so i did).
hey Belial88 , can u give me a link or explain, why 10 pool is build order win against hatch first? shouldn't it be defendable with enough spines and maybe queens blocking a ramp or sth. ? i am sure u can figure out how to hold this 10 pools with hatch first?
It has more stuff, and still arrives before pool. With 6/7/8 pool there isn't enough stuff to outright kill the drones, even 10 lings lose to 18 drones. A 6/7/8 pool really should never engage, just really wait until 50 lings arrive, or force the situation where the opponent can't win (his pool and hatch are dead, or a spine is up). The pool pops in time that 18 drones beat 10 lings, and even if the 6/7/8 pooler is reinforcing, the hatch firster is going 18 drones, and reinforcing lings at the same rate.
Basically, a 6 pool and a 10 pool both arrive at the same time - before the pool pops, and the hatch firster is on ~18 drones. With 6 pool you can delay, and even fight head on, making it an extremely short window of time where the 6 pooler even has a superior force at all. With 10 pool, its just a ton of shit, and the hatch firster, even if he gets 6 lings out, it still won't be enough.
I've tried. If the 10 pooler just sends 6 lings, sure, you can hold. But if they bring 8 drones, like Nestea's 'anti-hatch first' build, or go 10 pool baneling, there is just absolutely nothing you can do.
It's not even hatch first, really. Just doing a pool later than, i dont know, 15 or 16, is what you are really losing for.
Even as a masters protoss player, this was very helpful. Didn't know the particular part about stacking all your workers on the recessed mineral nodes, and that seems like it's actually very key to minimizing losses. While the rest of the guide isn't that applicable, that'll definitely make me feel a lot safer about greedy FFEing or Nexus-Firsting on various maps. Thanks!
already thought that hatch first might beat 6pool when done well, really glad to see someone figuring the exact "how to". Another step to less all ins, more brainfights... I love it Really nice guide!
Big big thank you Belial, been meaning to practise my defence vs 6pools for ages but didn't really know how to play it. This has made everything so much easier.
Edit: Believe it or not I got 6 pooled the very first game on the ladder after reading this. Easily held, then baneling countered and won. Thank you!
Yea. I mean, I could've made the guide about literally 10 sentences long (the whole "TLDR without the why" section at the end of each part) but the why was actually kind of ... complex.
Even still, the best way to beat 6 pool is just practice with a friend. I don't think you'll be able to read this guide and suddenly be able to stop perfectly executed 6 pools (probably be okay against ladder pools up to masters though), but maybe with this guide you can just spend only 1-2 games practicing instead of hours.
Your welcome all!
and still:
Can a mod edit the title to make "[G]Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beat 6 Pool ZvZ". I didn't mean to hit post, I was hitting preview over and over, doing final edits
and why are the images broken on the replay files ><
On December 17 2011 21:57 Belial88 wrote: Updated a lot in regards to stalemating, and the drone all-in section.
I did a lot of work in the unit tester, and it's quite surprising how well 18 drones do against 10 lings + 6 drones + spine. Bad habit and I have been talking a bit, and I don't think he's aware how badly 10 lings + 6 drones does against 18 drones with the support of just 2-4 more units.
i just want to throw in u can kite zerg / drone mixes pretty easy so u kill the lings first. no comment to the rest since ur lacking basic knowledge
I lost ZvZ to a 6 pool and three spines yesterday and as I rage quit, this thread was here to comfort me. Hopefully now I won't have anymore stupid losses like that!
On December 17 2011 21:57 Belial88 wrote: Updated a lot in regards to stalemating, and the drone all-in section.
I did a lot of work in the unit tester, and it's quite surprising how well 18 drones do against 10 lings + 6 drones + spine. Bad habit and I have been talking a bit, and I don't think he's aware how badly 10 lings + 6 drones does against 18 drones with the support of just 2-4 more units.
i just want to throw in u can kite zerg / drone mixes pretty easy so u kill the lings first. no comment to the rest since ur lacking basic knowledge
unit tester is shit in general
Thanks, that's very nice of you to add that. But you need to get a good surround with the drones, so unless you kite for like the entire map, it's not very useful information. I will not add it to the guide unless you can say this has a practical use, maybe even a replay or vod of this.
I went into a real game to test this 'unit tester is shit in general' theory of yours. It turns out, that in an actual real game, the numbers are actually much more favorable to the hatch-first player due to the existence of mineral patches, allowing mineral walking and surrounds and ramps and drone stacking.
Me thinks, this new information proves how favorable a position the hatch firster is over the 7pool drone all-inner. I don't think you were aware that it only takes 2 lings with the 18 drones to beat your army?
I lost ZvZ to a 6 pool and three spines yesterday and as I rage quit, this thread was here to comfort me. Hopefully now I won't have anymore stupid losses like that!
Someone did a 6 pool with 3 spines? You sure it wasn't an 8 pool? How exactly was it a 6 pool with 3 spines? That's.... impossible, without cutting something out of the equation (time, attack time, lings, pool timing). I'd be interested in knowing the exacts of the build or the replay. I don't honestly know how to beat a 6 pool with 3 spines, although I have a hard time believing such a 6 pool exists, but it's possible that such a build, even if it's not 6 pool but something else, may require a different response than one I have given. I'd hate for you to respond to such a build incorrectly, when it's possibly beatable. Or unbeatable, even that would be interesting.
Thanks for the indepth research. Hopefully I'll never lose to a cheese again. QQ I guess we should find some partner to practice 6 pool with. Sounds like Zerg orgy.
Thanks for such a deep and well-researched guide. I just spent 30 minutes going through the first variation. I could spend all day on this!
Yea I was a little worried about that... I mean, I really appreciate it, but I hope to not turn people off because it's 15 pages long.
First sentence I say: 6 pool ezpz to beat. Followed by 15 pages of how to beat 6 pool. lol.
At the end of each section on the variations, I have a very, very simple TLDR of what to do, that's just 2-3 sentences long.
It's extremely simple to beat each pool, it's just the whys, or all the responses, or fuck ups, that can change the course of the game.
I'm glad you enjoyed it, but the best thing you can do is just practice with a friend real quick on each variation! practice is best, and you won't beat 6 pool just reading this guide (well maybe).
I would love to see a better replay of you holding infinite lings, because that guy was just terrible (letting both extractors finish instead of cancelling, at one point he had ~14 lings with your spine still half way and could have just attacked and won.)
I think I explained it already, but it doesn't matter he let the extractors finish because by then, I had thrown down the spine.
Like I've already said, an overlord is never really necessary with a 6 pooler, because by then the rush is either held off, or you won the game already. In this case, he was held off. After cancelling, he would've had to make an overlord, and wait on some lings to pop, and they would have never gotten to my base before the spine was finished.
However, if any masters who know how to 6 pool, wants to infinite ling with me to recreate a better replay, I'd be all for it. Just PM me here on TL.
And no, he could not have attacked my spine with his 14 lings. With mineral walking and micro, 18 drones can hold off 14 lings. 18 drones beats... what is it, 13 lings, i believe, in a straight up a-move. With mineral walk micro, 14 lings can be easily beaten, or at least held off. I also could have just hit hold position around the spine to prevent him from sniping it. I also could have just made 2 spines to be extra safe, or even 3.
But again, if someone thinks they can do it better, please PM me to create a better quality replay.
Thanks for the indepth research. Hopefully I'll never lose to a cheese again. QQ I guess we should find some partner to practice 6 pool with. Sounds like Zerg orgy.
You're welcome. 6 pool is pretty quick to practice and hash out. You will still lose to 10 pool cheese though ><
EPT
