EPT
.I still have some issues with 14/14 against 9/10/11 pool occasionally, otherwise I feel like my early game is pretty much set in stone now!
[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool! - Page 3
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
.I still have some issues with 14/14 against 9/10/11 pool occasionally, otherwise I feel like my early game is pretty much set in stone now! | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
threw the game in the end because i had my overlord on team 2 and not my spine as i guessed, same as my keyboard turned off so even tho i had enough minerals to build more stuff it didnt accept my clicks so i actually lost the game. but if i execute well with a proper ping i just dont see how to lose to this, neither do i see whats so pecial about the disicionmaking. alle he used is what i explained in my own thread. Replay : http://drop.sc/75183 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You seem to think that it was luck or you threw the game, but even if the spine was all the way in my home base, I had enough 'head start' to have focused down your spine before you could do anything about it, and I could always make more extractors anyways if you had actually killed my pool and everything in my base. It goes to show that all a drone all-inner can hope for is a stalemate. You threw away the stalemate, not the game, but going up the ramp and engaging unfavorably and allowing me to get inbetween your army and your spine, allowing me the chance to just focus fire it down. I'd be happy to play more games. The only reason it was a stalemate was because you completely out-micro'd me, which was great on your part and poor play on my part, but regardless, even if you totally out play me, you only get a stalemate. Nothing of what I did was in your thread. edit again: what does your overlord or spine on a hotkey have to do with anything. Since drones are the same speed as... drones, it didn't matter whether the spine was in my base, hidden in the corner somewhere, or where it was when it was - you rushed up the ramp, giving me a chance to simply mineral walk past you and focus down your spine. 16 drones will kill the spine before your army would kill the 16 drones if I have a simple little headstart that was only just a 'base' long, like it was in that game, and is exactly what occurred. My excuse, at least, makes sense - that you out-micro'd and totally out-juked my lings and surrounded them when they hatched. And that's another thing too, you didn't 'totally surround the eggs' - despite your best efforts, you didn't prevent any of the lings from getting hatched. You just juked and out-micro'd me and I stupidly ran my lings into your army when I should've been paying attention to them instead of the drones running to your base. My excuse makes sense, yours doesn't. 2-0! | ||
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Geiko
France1939 Posts
I think the obvious solution is to play out 4 or 5 more games to see who is right ! | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On December 17 2011 01:40 Belial88 wrote: Me and Bad_Habit just played. We have differing opinions on the results. I was ...erm, quite distracted with boobs, and to be fair, he out-micro'd me like a boss. He surrounded my eggs quite well, and simply outmicro'd and juked and jived with his units to deny my lings from running out, and I actually didn't get a single ling out and I stupidly lost a few drones as well when I forgot about his morphing spine. I ran to his base, and seeing him run out of my base with my 9 overlord, the one I use to scout for morphing hidden spines (he didnt finish my base off), I re-rooted my spine to be in range of his hatch and pool, and in range of the ramp. I knew he was going to camp until the creep went away so I couldn't fight with the spine, so I re-rooted so the spine would be out of range of his hatch. He took the opportunity to try to engage me, but the spine proved too much, but he did take it as a chance to continue mining at home. That was a mistake on his part, and so, with the spine covering me, I killed his hatch quite quickly (it had only about 100 hp left and there was nothing he could do to prevent my drones from focusing it), and then his spine became revealed, and having the lead since he was by the mineral line, and I was by the ramp, I bumrushed his spine and killed it off. I think this proves my solution is true. He did extremely well, and I'd have to say his pool was, beyond any other person I've played with, better executed than any pool I've ever come across, despite being one of the easiest variations (in my opinion). It's quite obvious why he got to GM with the build. However, even when he completely out-micro'd me, it goes to show that the best a drone all-inner can hope for is a stalemate. In short, I won. He seems to think that I'm wrong about this, but there was a reason why I won. It was a stalemate situation really, that he threw away by trying to attack up the ramp, or go back to mining, or whatever he was trying to do. yeah thats what i said, best thing u can get is a "draw" under normal circumstances. i was not sure 100% if i could iwn the fight with my units since ur spine would deal damage again. but after killing some probes off, going back to minings to get out 2-3 additional drones and just send my spine back towards ur base, running out after u killed my mainbase and just defending my spine would be 100% win for me. i messed up and lost the game but that happens in like 1 of 100 games since im aware u cant do mistakes without losing when ur early pooling | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
On December 17 2011 01:40 Belial88 wrote: I won. You seem to think that it was luck or you threw the game, but even if the spine was all the way in my home base, I had enough 'head start' to have focused down your spine before you could do anything about it, and I could always make more extractors anyways if you had actually killed my pool and everything in my base. It goes to show that all a drone all-inner can hope for is a stalemate. You threw away the stalemate, not the game, but going up the ramp and engaging unfavorably and allowing me to get inbetween your army and your spine, allowing me the chance to just focus fire it down. I'd be happy to play more games. The only reason it was a stalemate was because you completely out-micro'd me, which was great on your part and poor play on my part, but regardless, even if you totally out play me, you only get a stalemate. Nothing of what I did was in your thread. all u did was in my thread, trying defensive drone stacking same as playing passive is exactly what i told on my thread how you should react. and me myself, im sure noone on this planet can win me with 6-8 pool allin when im doing hatch first or 14/14. but what ur saying that bronzies simply can win every single game they get early pooled is wrong^^ i would appreciate if you would add the replay to your post and some informations to it. if you dont do that it seems to me ur just ignorant and i wont take part in this discussion anymore^^ | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I was the one who made stupid mistakes by running my lings into your army. You're aware I could've just kept them inside my base forever and then brought my own drones back to my own home base and fought you there when you were forced to uproot - and if you didn't kill my hatch I would've just brought my own spine over from your base. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
and me myself, im sure noone on this planet can win me with 6-8 pool allin when im doing hatch first or 14/14. Great. How about we get you, to 6 pool yourself, and then we can post the replays here, as proof? That'd be genius! The whole point of this thread is how hatch first > 6 pool. So i don't get, what you are getting at, if you claim yourself no one can beat you with a 6-8 pool when you go hatch first. Why did we even play in the first place then? Is that your attempt to try to prove I'm an idiot or something, so then you post a game where the positions are reversed and you hold it or something? but what ur saying that bronzies simply can win every single game they get early pooled is wrong^^ Bronzies will definitely beat any other bronzie or silver that early pools them, and they can probably beat almost every game too. Maybe bronze is a little too far, I guess those are people who don't know the hotkeys yet.... i would appreciate if you would add the replay to your post and some informations to it. if you dont do that it seems to me ur just ignorant and i wont take part in this discussion anymore^^ I don't think it's fair to put up a replay where I screw up the micro, and the 7 pooler admittedly 'screws up' too. That wouldn't be an accurate representation. Besides, it wouldn't be legit to put up a replay that isn't on steppes of war. Rematch on steppes of war? It's pretty clear that at worse, the game would've been a stalemate for the hatch firster, and at best and most commonly, if the hatch firster isn't dumb enough to run lings into an army like I did, he will win. Don't make me bust out the ez. We can play more games, I think that would be best. For the community ^^ | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
well ur just acting weird in order to defend ur thread what might be a good read but not at all any kind of help. i dont want this to end in a flamewar im just out of the discussion. the replay is posted everyone can make his own mind up. sure u won the game. i threw it away. i made a ton of mistakes in the end and if it wouldve been just one tiny mistake less i still would have won. ur information, that u can help bronzies, to deal with my strat (what is the worst in your eyes, even tho i have like alot of more experience in this case) is just completely wrong. i said in the first place, before playing. a "draw" is the best thing you could get and that is what would have happened if i would have stayed passive. i was sure im able to win the game so i went for it. made mistakes and lost it. but thats all that replay is about in the "lategame(lol)" another thing i want to mention is that xelnaga and metalopolis are the only 2 maps u can use the spine to camp the choke so the map was favoring this and on every other map it wouldve been over anyways. ^^ over and out. no sense to discuss with ppl lacking knowledge about the game | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
i think the replay says it all. | ||
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Flexx
United States87 Posts
Very few members of the community contribute ANYTHING, and seeing something as well thought out as this is refreshing. Thank you! | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
16 lings + 1 spine (that has to root) + 6-8 lings > 5 drones + 10 lings I'm not the one that lost, and I'm not the one that won't rematch (and I'm offering on Steppes of War, you realize). I made some pretty obvious errors that game, and granted, got outplayed/outmicro'd even. Your only excuse makes no sense - you moved your spine where it shouldn't be - but that doesn't matter, because you were trying to move it to your base anyways, and spines don't walk fast so it wasn't going to be far from where it got caught anyways, and regardless of where you put, any attempt of yours to run up the ramp means I just run past you and then focus your spine before you can stop me. You didn't 'throw it away'. Your silly claim that 'oh you mixed up your spine hotkey' makes no sense - as soon as you engaged up the ramp you lost, because then I get enough of a lead ahead of your army, since we both have just drone armies essentially, that I focus your spine down with 16 drones. I threw it away much more than you did, by losing all of my lings by running them straight into your army, when I should've just been paying attention ONLY to them. Okay. If you want, I can edit the section about bronzies. How about it reads "And even bronzies can win, and be able to beat the pools of anyone below GM!" Would that be a good compromise? I think that's fair. You admit you're wrong, and that I'm right (who won?) - and I'll edit about the bronzies. Sleep Tight, Don't let the Bed Bugs Bite. Belial. Belial. The 6 pooler scarer-away-er. I suppose habit is forfeiting the next 6 games in the BO7. Please link my guide in your thread please, as the counter to your build. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Oh I always do this on team games vs ling runbys, you're pretty bm though from what I've seen on the first replay :/ Team games are completely different. This guide has no merit for team games. And the guy in the first game is someone who I have a history with on ladder. I'm sorry it so offends you that I was BM to someone on ladder. Yea, you are right, maybe I should just tear down this whole guide. I'm such a fucking idiot and bm guy, surely the guide is probably shit too. | ||
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coL.hendralisk
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
On December 17 2011 02:08 Belial88 wrote: Team games are completely different. This guide has no merit for team games. And the guy in the first game is someone who I have a history with on ladder. I'm sorry it so offends you that I was BM to someone on ladder. Yea, you are right, maybe I should just tear down this whole guide. I'm such a fucking idiot and bm guy, surely the guide is probably shit too (I bet we should vote for people based on how funny and good looking they are too ;/ ). Well what I was trying to say your primary trick to defending vs lings and drones is to stack up on a mineral inbetween 2 isn't it? I don't see how being in a team game, that could not work vs lings in your mineral line? Also you seem to be really sensitive and jump to conclusions, sorry if you took offense to my comment | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
On December 17 2011 01:11 Belial88 wrote: Very interesting! I would love to chat with you online, or see a few replays of this, where you are against masters 6 poolers (or ones that competently execute the pool - I could do it to you as well. I've tried working out alternate solutions but I haven't been able to find any. The solution you propose also seems to be less micro intensive than the one I came up with. Sure, i'd gladly practice some early pool attack/defense with you. Truth is, i don't hatch first very often, but i think the same principle would work, yet with less success ratio as of course the pool would come a little later and you lose some minerals in the cancel. I have some reps, sure, as 1 in like 3 or 4 zergs i play go 6pool+spine+droneallin  . | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Also you seem to be really sensitive and jump to conclusions, sorry if you took offense to my comment I worked pretty damn hard on this guide, and spend a lot of time on it. If all you have to say about my guide is something about team games - which makes absolutely no sense at all, sure, maybe some of these tricks will help you in teams games, no, i cant say it'll work, it doesnt even make sense, like double pools, what about your partner, etc - and a comment about BM on a replay that is admittedly kind of useless and a guy who is a BM spammer I've ran into ladder multiple times that you know nothing about, is really irritating. Like, you are right, maybe I'm a little sensitive. But damn, I put a lot of effort into this guide. I literally spent many hours, over the course of many weeks, JUST working on this. And all you have to say, essentially, is that you are offended by the BM in one of the replays? Like, you aren't even going to say you like the guide, or that you have any criticism of the guide? You are going to talk about the BM? Why don't you critisize my goddamn choice of team color?!? Like wow, really, really... okay, breathe. Thank you for your feedback, I will take it into consideration in regards to future guides. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Sure, i'd gladly practice some early pool attack/defense with you. Ah, I understand. I will find my own practice partner then and try to work out a solution, that incorporates your idea. It sounds very interesting. Obviously it won't work against every type of pool, but I'll see if it works in any situation. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
you are inspiration to this guide. i like you ^^ | ||
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JDub
United States976 Posts
One question -- Bad Habit brings up how 14/14 is his preferred strat to go against. I assume this is because the opponent is mining gas instead of minerals, has wasted a drone on an extractor, and this more than makes up for the earlier pool. Do you have any thoughts on this? Are you actually safer with 15h against 6/7/8p instead of 14g14p, because you have more minerals + more drones when the opponent arrives at your base? | ||
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