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[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool!

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-23 16:44:58
December 16 2011 09:15 GMT
#1
I've edited this guide to be much more shorter and clearer. If you want to check out a much more descriptive guide on the whys, read the old guide spoilered below. Hopefully, this guide will make it much clearer just what you need to do and be an easier read


[image loading] vs [image loading]


Hi. I'm a 1500+ Masters Zerg, who also wrote:

  • [G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Overlords!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 pool!
  • Belial's Guide: How to Build a Budget PC
  • ZvP: Ling/Infestor or: How I Grew to Love ZvP

This is a new guide on how to beat all types of 6/7/8 Pools with Hatch First, as well as a few types of 10 Pools. The other guide was way too long, and too wordy. This is an update


6/7/8 Pool Drone All-in
+ Show Spoiler +

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

7 Pool, Drone
6xLings
Send All but 2 Drones when Lings nearly finish
@140 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick 4xLings, send last 2 drones


Continue to Drone up, and make an overlord. Cancel Nat.
Send out a drone to put a spine in his base, then base trade when he arrives.


This is because you want to plant a spine in his base as your last building, as spines can walk off creep without losing health, and if you screw up, you can force a stalemate by not killing his hatch. An extractor works, but a spine makes things much easier.

When he arrives at your base, run to his base via mineral walking (If you defensively drone stack, then right click another mineral patch, then right click a mineral patch in his base or at another base before they arrive to the currently destined patch, they will stay stuck as 'one drone'.

Rally lings, careful not to lose them.

If you get out with 4+ Lings, you will win a straight up fight easily.
If you get out with 2+ Lings, you will need to micro
If you get out with less than 2 lings, you will lose without superior micro. Force a stalemate, or bumrush his last building, his spine, if he lets your drones get between him and his spine (15 drones will kill a walking spine quicker than 10 lings+6 Drones can kill the 15 drones)

Getting enough Lings out:
[image loading]

Focusing his spine down because you didn't get any lings out:
[image loading]

6 Pool with Mass Lings (with 0-2 Spines)
+ Show Spoiler +

A 6/7/8 Pool with Lings rallied and may or may not have a Spine.

If he doesn't make a spine, make 2 spines in your mineral line, and defensively mineral walk to protect it, as you will win any battle inside the mineral line with a full surround. But most people make spines, so:

Continue droning up, make an overlord, Cancel Nat.
Pull 4 Drones to focus 1 spine at a time, and be extremely aggressive in the open, you will easily win.


If someone does a 6 Pool with Spine, attack. Do not be afraid to be extremely aggressive - the opponent will not have enough lings or units to beat your army. Aggressively attack toward him, and then pull 4+ drones to attack the spine. If he makes 2 spines, be even more aggressive, as no ling reinforcements will be on the way, and you can definitely win the battle. The key here is really, really, really being super aggressive with your drones in this fight.

Micro is also important. Use hold position on hurt drones, and if you just have a few drones attacking and able to be attacked (like going through a choke), box over them and mineral walk them to retreat them to the back of the line. Never engage in a choke.

As you can see in this replay, I'm extremely aggressive against the 6 Pool Double Spine, and just absolutely crush his army, taking any chance he backs off, to kill his spines. Don't pull 4+4 drones per spine, only pull 4 drones at a time to focus a single spine at a time, and then with the rest of the drones, attack (if you pull 8 of your drones away, you won't win a fight). Simply work one spine down, then the other, and if he runs away, pull the fighting fleet of drones to attack the other spine.

The reason you can't, say, just put X+1 spines in your mineral line and defensively drone stack and pool lings and wait until the spines pop, so you can re-root and engage, is because a 6 pool + Spines can actually focus your hatch down before your spines finish, and that just sucks.

PS: If anyone is dumb enough to just attack your drones, defensively drone stack (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) and kill all his units. Sometimes you'll run into stupid people who will just a-move into your drones, and you defensively drone stack and they'll lose everything to it, even when they have a spine on the way (at which point you can just overwhelm that spine quite easily).

Zero Spines
[image loading]

2 Spines
http://drop.sc/240313


10 Pool Baneling
+ Show Spoiler +

CheckPrime first showcased this as an anti-hatch first build, and after Nestea's 10 pool, this has since fallen out of favor. Still deadly, but beatable.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

- 10 Pool
- 10 Gas
- Overlord, Extractor trick
- Constant Lings, Morph Banelings at opponent's base


To beat this:
- Morph 3 Spines in Mineral Line, a little bit spread out so baneling splash doesn't wipe all of them out easily (he shouldn't go for them, but if he does)
- 2xQueens
- Spread your drones very well


You actually need to micro pretty well to beat this, as in spread your drones like a boss (you should see him morphing banes and start working on splitting right away). It's okay if you lose half your drones, with 2 queens, 2+ spines, and a hatch, you should be immune to further aggression.

10 pool Speedling
+ Show Spoiler +

Nestea used this against DRG. It failed, because it can be easily held off. No one has done it since.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

10 Gas, Drone
10 Pool, Overlord
Speed, Pull from Gas
Queen, Lings


Make a spine in Nat and Main.
2 Queens
Mass Lings when you see he's clearly 10 Pooling (Pull drones if necessary)
Block the ramp


So how can you tell it's a 10 Pool that's pooling speedlings, and not, say a 14/14 all-in? Send that overlord you sent to his nat, to check into his main real quick. If a Queen is there, it's a 10 Pool. Or, if you see Lings flowing across the map ~3:00 (a 10 pool finishes around 2:50) without drones backing them up, and he isn't morphing banelings in your base.

It's pretty easy to beat this. Now that you know it's a 10 pool speedling, you'll want to make a spine in both your main and nat (if he sends his initial lings immediately over, this is important, as well as when the speedling mass comes). Pool lings at your ramp, where him having speed won't mean anything, and hold position with your queens there, and eventually bring the spine from your nat, to your natural, when you see you can clearly hold the ramp.


http://drop.sc/239613 Masses up
http://drop.sc/239614 Attacks straight away

10 Pool Plain
+ Show Spoiler +

Curious does this from time to time.

Just defensively drone stack while getting Queens, Lings

If he only sends lings, do not run around in circles around your hatchery like Lalush did vs Curious. Instead, defensively drone stack in a recessed mineral patch (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) until your Lings, Queens pop. Pretty straightforward. Don't cancel your natural, just pull your drones and queens to save it if he goes for it. This type of 10 pool is pretty silly.



10 Pool with 8 of 12 Drones Pulled and 1-2 Spines
+ Show Spoiler +

For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

- 10 Pool
@70 Minerals, Extractor Trick 1 more drone (don't cancel)
@70 Minerals, Extractor Trick 1 more drone (cancel both now - the reason you don't wait until @125 minerals is because you need to use up that larva quicker so you have 3 larva when pool pops, if you wait to @125 you will only have 2 when pool pops)
- 8+ Lings
- Send 8 of 12 drones when Lings are about to pop
- Make 1 Spine at each base of opponent or 2 Spines
- Don't make an overlord (you should be losing a few lings in engagements anyways, if you aren't, you are doing really good)


You lose


Old Guide
Check this out for a much, much, much wordier and in-depth look on 6 pools
+ Show Spoiler +
Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6/7/8 Pool with Hatch First

Hello, I'm a 1500+ Masters Zerg, and this will be the first in a series of comprehensive guides. I also wrote:

  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP!
  • [G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Overlords!
  • Belial's Guide: How to Build a Budget PC
  • ZvP: Ling/Infestor or: How I Grew to Love ZvP


The 6/7/8 Early Pool is a build order loss to everything in ZvZ. However, even the best pros have lost to early pools. There is also a myth that defending an early pool requires ‘Godly Micro’ or that you must be a 'god among men', which is simply not true - against a comparable opponent (ie ladder system), you should always win. Defending early pools is not about micro, it is about decision making, and the decision is extremely black and white: Fight or Run Away. With correct decision making, you can beat early pools using only the mouse.

Furthermore, I will make this guide about going Hatch First and on Steppes of War, since it is the latest pool on the worst map, and if you can hold an early pool going Hatch First on Steppes, you will be able to hold early pool with any build on any map (preferably, with minimal micro!) - and yes, I do take into account the shorter scouting distance, and in the supplemental replays I make sure to either scout extremely late, or not react to what I scout until extremely late, to reflect longer scout distances (even going as far to prove the point by not throwing the pool down until the lings are in my base!).

However, there are many variations of early pools, and each variation requires an acutely unique and different response. This is why you even see pros lose to early pools.

So, in this guide, I will discuss everything on beating early pools - how to scout, how to prepare, how to respond, how to micro (I’ve also come up with new and better micro tricks!), how to follow-up, and of course, the counter-strats.

Finally, I will say right now, that there will be replays of me holding every variation of early pool by going Hatch First on Steppes of War against a competent Masters Zerg. The point of me doing these games on Steppes was to prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that Hatch First can beat any sort of 6/7/8 pool, of any kind, without using ‘pro micro’.

I will also provide a short addendum at the end discussing how to best execute an early pool and my thoughts on which early pool is hardest to deal with, and even share some new tricks and builds to early pooling I came to learn... although really, the whole point of what I’m saying here is that early pool is stupid and pointless, but there is at least better ways to do a stupid and pointless build (I always think strat threads are best when they include the counter-strat).

I've spent a few months doing this research, and I suppose it all started with seeing Bad_Habit's 6 pool to GM thread. As we saw from Losira vs Kyrix, hatch first can beat early pool, but this thread made the discussion a bit deeper. I then set out to find the answer to beat his 'unstoppable' ZvZ early pool, and although I found the answer quite quickly, it took a long time to truly flesh everything out as every pool is different. There are really no proper anti-6 pool guides on TL, and most of the ones that exist are so old that they even say 6 pool always beats hatch first, or just give completely wrong advice (against certain varieties).

Anyways, I spent a long time figuring this all out, and I soon developed the philosophy that not only is it possible to beat every type of 6/7/8 Pool with Hatch First, there is a way to do it using completely zero micro. This is a strong point in this guide - I felt strongly that there existed an answer that required absolutely zero micro, and I would not stop until I either was proven wrong, or found that answer, and so I did.

Note: 9/10/11 pools are build order wins against hatch first, so don’t tell me your awesome ‘10 pool counter hatch-first build’ can beat it, because yes, it will. You can still cancel the hatch and plant a spine to hopefully stay in the game, but if the opponent sends 8 drones a la Nestea or gets banelings a la Check, it’s gg.

On Scouting
+ Show Spoiler +

I always recommend drone scouting when going hatch first. It is not important to send it super early, and you are not sending it to see if the opponent went early pool (at least, you aren’t sending it so early that you would change your build order). I send a 14 drone scout - some prefer earlier, some prefer later, but 14 drone scout is really fine enough. I would only really only see earlier drone scouts on particular, 2 player, short maps (like 10 drone on XNC just because it’ll arrive right before you plant the hatch first), but again, they aren’t necessary (in this case, you can see a 10 pool in time, although I personally don’t even 10 scout on XNC, I’m just saying you could).

I know most koreans don’t drone scout, but against drone all-in variations of early pool, it is much easier if you put a drone in their base, although technically you don’t need it in there. It’s extremely useful, however, to identify the exact variation of their pool, something you can’t exactly discern without a scouting worker (without a scouting worker, you can't tell for sure if the 5 drones he brought were because he went 6 pool drone all-in, or he went 7 pool with drones and left 2 mining - and I can assure you now, that the answer to both are completely different and doing the wrong one will lose you the game; furthermore, a drone in their base is not 100% necessary, but makes things 100% easier).

As for the utility of a scouting worker in general when going hatch first, I’d also argue that it’s more useful (count to see how many lings the opponent who went hatch first started with so you know how much you can drone, if they went tech or not, etc) but since that’s another topic, I’ll leave that alone and say simply if you want to be able to beat possible drone all-in variations of early pool, you will need a drone scout.

Secondly, I recommend that when going hatch first, you send your 9 overlord slightly above your hatch, opposite the side with the mineral line, to spot for possible morphing spines. A morphing spine unseen can simply end the game for you, and just sending a drone around the creep is not smart, as the enemy drone can sneak in unseen and you can be distracted, simply not be that fast, or 2 spines can be morphing, or the opponent could be going hatch first and it would just hurt your econ too much. Another important part of this overlord is to scout the top of your ramp and the enemy’s position with his army if it gets to a base trade. You can definitely, always send the overlord to their natural or in front of their base (or wherever you normally put it) even on the largest maps in time to check for early unit movements or their natural timing once you have confirmed they aren't 6-12 pooling you and get it there in time, so don't worry.

Again, let me stress that sending a super early drone scout is not necessary. Yes, I will admit that a 10 drone scout can make things a bit easier against certain variations of early pool, seeing what's going on at 13 instead of 16, but it is completely unnecessary - remember, a later scout on a larger map also means a longer transit distance for their units. Also, some variations of early pool are perfectly okay for you to even plant the pool as late as 16, 17 supply, even before the hatch cancel, although I will admit a pool above 15 supply or before hatch cancel against certain variations is a bit harder.

The next response depends on what variation of early pool is occurring.

How to React
+ Show Spoiler +

Once you confirm that an early pool is coming, you must cancel your hatch, cancel any extractor if it isn’t too late, and throw down your pool ASAP if you haven’t already.

The placement of your pool is extremely important as well. For ZvZ, I’m sure everyone is aware of the ‘Sim-City’ Pool, where you place it to ‘block’ a side of your mineral line. Sim City pools are stupid, they are only really useful if you are going 1 base roach, so stop doing that if you already have a habit of doing that. Anyways, where you want to place the pool is behind mineral line, preferably ‘tucked’ against a wall, with the least amount of surface area. Perfectly, it’s placed in a way so the opponent has to split his forces to fully engage it, so you can take the 50% of his ~8 lings with your 16 drones and get a few cheap shots off, and keep it alive longer. A good example of this was shown in Losira vs Kryix GSL May on Crevasse when Kryix had to split up his ling/drone force against Losira’s hatch first drone force to attack his pol, and loses half of his units in the process with his desperate all-in.

If you sim city the pool, it will block your workers from protecting it, and make it much harder for your drones to ‘escape’ from one side of the mineral line when the enemy comes through the other. When Sim City’d, the enemy can simply pound on your spawning pool and your drones will have a hell of a hard time to protect it, and each time you go out to protect it, they back off, and your mining time has been significantly cut due to having to go back and forth such a larger distance.

So when you scout the pool first, don’t worry, calm down, just take a second to place the pool smartly, because if you panic and just throw the pool down, like in the open on the creep, or ‘blocking in’ your mineral line, it will definitely come to bite you, as the spawning pool is the #2 priority of the enemy to attack (the #1 priority being to deny mining) and often times you will lose it, so having it up slightly longer can save you (sometimes you can even be denied from the pool even finishing).

Also remember that if you hotkeyed your morphing hatch, when you cancel it you will have a drone on the same hotkey as your hatches now, which will prevent you from selecting larva and morphing new units until you remove the drone from the hotkey. For this reason, I actually hold off on adding the hatch first to my hatch hotkey group until after I confirm the opponent’s build (a cancelled hatch becoming a drone again, and a hotkey group of a drone + hatch means zero unit production and an idle drone just Stop Stop Stopping when you hit S for larva). I’d actually recommend that at the start, you hotkey your morphing hatch first to your army hotkey, so you can quickly cancel it and send that drone to mine.

Finally, I’d recommend you patrol your scouting drone in their mineral line to see what is going on, or directly outside the mineral line, to get a drone count and see if he sends all his drones, or does something like keep 2 drones or morphs a defensive spine, for defensive purposes.

Determining the Variation
+ Show Spoiler +

Each type of early pool requires a different response, and you can glean a lot of what is coming with your scouting worker.

There are essentially 3 different types of early pool:
1. The ‘Infinite Ling’ where they make very few workers and make no spines, and stream nonstop lings
2. Ling+Spine
3. Drone All-in

You can instantly tell it’s a drone all-in if you see them pull all of their drones (and it must be every single drone).

If they continue mining with 2 or more workers, than determining the variation becomes more specific. You can usually tell if they are either doing the ‘Infinite Ling’ or Ling+Spine variation based on if a scouting drone is in your base or not, and if there are only 5 or 6 drones in the base, and they don’t pull them, that is indicative of ‘Infinite Ling’. But the most obvious tell, is if they make that spine in your base or not!

Should I make an Overlord?
+ Show Spoiler +

If they are drone all-inning, or morphing spines, yes. I would recommend a 17 or 18 overlord, depending on how close your pool is to be finished (18 if it’s less than half is what I’d recommend). If they are doing an ‘Infinite Ling’ style, then making an Overlord is not recommended.

If you are unsure of what they are doing (they don’t bring their drones and doing a drone all-in, obviously), just hold off on the overlord. Really, 18 overlord will be just fine since you will still be waiting on the pool, and your hatch won’t die that fast that the larva for making a single overlord kills you.

Infinite Ling
+ Show Spoiler +

While an ‘unrefined’ and simple 6 pool, no replacement drones, constant ling stream can seem newbish, I’d actually say that this is the pool easiest to lose to. This is because this build can quickly overwhelm you, as the ‘Critical Mass’ (when the opponent finally has enough forces to win an A-move against your 18 drones) can come quite quickly, and it’s easy to ‘slip up’ the required ‘answer’ and just screw up with a silly mistake.

The thing about Infinite Ling is that since he is mining at home, you can’t base trade, but because he isn’t making a spine, you aren’t forced to fight.

Here is the Build Order for the ‘best’ ‘Infinite Ling style, although it can come in many incarnations and is probably the most popular, particularly in the lower leagues, where people aren’t bothered to look up BO’s online and the player is perhaps innocent enough to simply ‘Do It’ rather than try to find the most perfect way to do a build (which is ironic, because I’d say this variation is the easiest to lose to).

+ Show Spoiler +

6 Pool (No drones afterwards)
Ling
Ling
Ling
Ling
Ling
Ling
Double Extractor Trick
Overlord (Really not necessary because the game will be decided already)
Ling
Ling
Ling
Ling
…


Generally, this build is better done on 2 player maps rather than 4 player maps, or maps with 2 spawns and can possibly detect which base you are at with overlord to close by air (Shakuras, Metal, ST) due to the total lack of drones.

Because the opponent is still mining, it is effective pressure when he denies you from mining. From cancelling the hatch you should have ‘enough’ money, but every time he denies mining time, is giving a bigger edge to him. Not that it will win or lose the game, or that you really need to keep mining, but it hurts.

Now remember, I said don’t make that overlord against this style. This is important (although honestly, not terribly important).

Try to keep mining as much as possible - you will want as much money as possible, and it’s very easy to lose a few drones (although it’s also possible to hold without losing anything). What is unique in this instance, is that lings are not the answer. Yes, very counter-intuitively, you will rely on a spinecrawler!

What, you say, I waited forever for one building to finish, you’re telling to wait on another? Everyone says that spines are the completely wrong thing to do! Well, yes, most often this is true, which in part is why this build took me the longest to find The Answer for, so let’s get on with it.

When the opponent first arrives with an initial 6 lings, he won’t have enough to win an A-move fight. So remain calm, and when he ‘pokes’ into your mineral line, just mineral walk half of the drones, so the others remain mining. If he’s dumb enough to attack, just mineral walk over him, but don’t box all of your drones, mineral walk to one patch then another, in an attempt to ‘catch’ him, because if he’s competent he won’t let himself be caught, and you just wasted a whole lot of mining time. Against this variation of early pool, you will appreciate (read:not need) more money, so try to mine as loooong as possible.

When his reinforcement lings come to make it a total of 10 lings, is when things start to get a little ‘hairy’. From here, mining will no longer be a priority, and while you can mineral walk and do cute things like that, the ‘best’ micro trick is to do a ‘Defensive Drone Flower’.

Since no name has been coined for this, we shall call it “Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death”. To execute this trick, select all of your drones, and repeatedly right click on a mineral patch (this is why I said against this type of pool, you need to click a lot!). Preferably, you select a ‘recessed’ mineral patch - you know, how on many mineral lines, there’s like a group of 3 mineral nodes, and the one in the middle is sort of ‘back’ a bit? Yea, click on that one, as if you click a mineral node that’s by itself, your drones won’t stack up perfectly, but if you pick one of these recessed nodes, not only will your drones stack better, but it creates a tighter choke for the opponent to engage through.

Once the opponent has a Critical Mass of lings, you will want to just execute Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death. If the opponent is dumb enough to actually engage your Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death, he will simply die - as all of your drones are stacked up all on one spot, every time you hit A-move, all 18 drones will attack on the same target at once, which only 1, maybe 2 or 3 lings can hit at once (1 if you pick the right mineral patch to do this trick). 18 x 5 damage = 90 damage. That’s enough to kill any ling in range instantly. Go back to stacking, and if he’s still dumb enough to be attacking snap again with Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death! Quite quickly, your 18 drones can melt 20+ lings if done perfectly, and the opponent will be scratching his head.

But more often than not, he won’t be stupid enough to engage (actually to be honest, on ladder, he will be stupid enough to engage and you win!), so you are just doing it until the pool pops and to stay alive. This will force the opponent to back off, and it gives you critical time for the pool to pop. If he attacks the hatch, don’t worry about it, and if he attacks the pool, you can attack him and force him to respond to the drones. Using good pool placement, this can cause unfavorable engagements where he has to back off for a second to regroup, and then when he’s regrouped, you back off and go back to executing Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death - buying you more of that critical time.

He won’t be able to kill the pool, and if it survives long enough for you to plant a spine and get a few lings, you’ll be okay to just remake it (you can also queue a queen and second spine before it goes down to be safe during the time you have no pool, as you’ll have a huge macro lead).

Once the pool pops is when things get tricky, and just right when a Critical Mass of lings will arrive that will kill anything but a perfect Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death, even a well executed mineral walk.

What you need to do, is make a single spine crawler, inside the mineral line. If you make it outside the mineral line, he will kill it quite easily, but if you make it inside the mineral line, any time he tries to attack it, you can mineral walk and deal enough damage to make him back off, attack your drones instead of the spine, and in general buy enough time for the spine to pop. You can also right click the morphing spine with your drones, then hit ‘Hold Position” so that the enemy will aggro onto the morphing spine, and be unable to reach it due to the ‘Hold’ drones (although honestly this isn’t the best trick to do). He should have enough lings to take on a mineral walk, so all you are doing is mineral walking to do a bit of damage, and mineral walking slightly further again to get the hurt drones out of aggro.

While the spine is morphing, you can also be making lings. Making the spine takes priority over making lings, and with doing Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death, it’s hard to fit in all the micro to make lings on top of everything else! Be extremely careful not to have all your drones on a hotkey and make the spine, and then hit ‘1-right click right click ….’ as the spine will cancel due to that drone being issued a new order, and also be careful not to just have your drones idling by, getting attacked, while you attempt to make the spine, as your own drones can prevent the spine from going down. The easiest way to make the spine, is to just have all your drones on one 1 hotkey, and a special drone on it’s own hotkey, particularly for this task. An easy way to do that is hotkey all your drones when you first identify the early pool variation, and then make the 18th drone, when morphing as an egg, on another hotkey.

When making lings - and remember, the spine takes priority over lings - it’s easiest when you add them to the same hotkey/grouping as the drones. At most, you will have 6 lings pop out against some 10+ number of lings, and that won’t do anything for you, so you will have to ‘hide’ them within the Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death.

It’s quite easy to screw up on this though - sometimes a stupid drone will just block the spine forever, or you lose a bunch of drones on accident because you tried to make them move away long enough for you to make a spine. In this sense, this is why I say this pool is the ‘hardest’ to deal with, but with practice and/or patience, you will easily beat it, and when done perfectly, you can come away further ahead against this pool than any other. It’s not necessary the most micro intensive pool to deal with, but definitely the easiest to screw up and lose against.

Once the spine pops, it’s game over! You can easily come out with 15+ drones, and even all 18 is possible against the perfect 6 pooler, against his 5 drones. It’s okay if you are supply blocked, you make the overlord quickly and from there you have total control of the game. They will likely still have lots of lings, so you can follow up with banelings or speedlings.

Of course, you can always just make 2 spines instead of 1, if you aren't comfortable with your ability to hold yet. Since zerglings are essentially useless - you will never overcome his production of lings until a queen's larva inject pops, which won't be anytime soon, and he's constantly streaming lings in - it's perfectly fine to make 2 spines and zero zerglings.

And make sure to always cancel if he's about to kill a spine. It's perfectly okay if you have to totally reset and cancel the spine that was almost done, and it's even okay if you actually just lose it - it takes a lot of zerglings to be able to take on a mineral walk. It's okay if you lose 10+ drones trying to protect the morphing spine, as he is only on 6-8 drones himself, and a defensive spine can even up if he's a drone or two ahead by allowing you to just get defensive banes, if the game goes on, and get more drones instead. But hopefully you should've kept every drone alive ^^

And that’s GG!

In short, sans explanation of the why
+ Show Spoiler +

Keep drones away (using Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death makes it even easier).
Make Spine inside your mineral line
Protect Spine using mineral walking



Drone All-in
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The thing about someone who brings drones to attack, is that it no longer matters if he uses lings to deny mining, as he isn’t mining himself. This makes matters much easier and simple.

So as I already mentioned, there are essentially 2 decisions that you can make in a ZvZ against early pool, and micro is not an issue: Run away, or Fight.

The following is the most optimal build order for the drone all-in, courtesy of FameToFlame aka Bad_Habit:
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7 Pool
Drone to 7
Scout on 7 if necessary
@100% Pool 3 sets of Lings, send all but 2 drones
@140 Minerals and 100% Lings, Double Extractor Trick 2x more sets of Lings for 12/10 supply, and send off final 2 drones
Spine in opponents base by mineral line when you have enough to beat the opponent’s forces and can ‘secure’ the spine, usually when both drones and lings arrive


If the opponent is bringing all of his drones, you will need to run away. In fact, you will base trade. Try to mine until the very, very last minute, but once it’s too much just mineral walk to their base. If his units snap at you, such as in transit, do not worry, none of them will die and the health will regenerate. You can always try to juke and dodge him, but it is important to run faster rather than elusively.

You can also drone flower to buy more time for your morphing pool, and if the opponent is stupidly aggressive, you can outright win if he attacks your Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death. Be sure to leave before the spine pops, as that is the best counter to it, but yes, 16 drones will beat 7 drones + 8 lings when using Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death, but losing drones in this part of the game will hurt.

Also, if he does a drone all-in without a spine, you can simply do a Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death to stall for your own lings (and maybe even a queen, or treat it like a Infinite Ling pool) and win. Since he won’t be reinforcing with more lings, you will actually have enough drones to win with a Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death if he’s dumb enough to attack it, so I suppose that’s how you beat drone all-ins without spines, but you usually aren’t so lucky to come across someone that dumb, and you might as well be safe and do the following response anyways.

The best response of the opponent is to kill your pool ASAP, so if he gives chase or dillydallies, that’s just better for you. You should have well over 300 minerals banked due to the cancelled hatch and extra mining, and if you were pro you would’ve had all your drones return minerals before you ran away and you would’ve mined until the last second, giving you even more money (just right click the hatch before running away to return the last minerals, don’t worry, you won’t lose any drones because you will just mineral walk them away afterwards). If he actually chases you though, just run circles around the map until you’ve made a million lings and then rejoin forces and fight.

Now. This is where the scouting drone is so important, particularly on larger maps. On maps like Tal Darim, it is possible for the opponent to kill your pool (and if you didn’t drone scout, you wouldn’t even know where to go to base trade) before your workers get to his base. The reason for this, is because if he makes a spine in your base, you simply cannot engage there - so you must create a place where he cannot engage. While theorycraft wise you don't 'need' a spine because eventually you'll have enough lings, it is possible he out-micro's your lings when they hatch, so you'll need it for the stalemate if you lose too many lings when they hatch. It also makes things much easier, such as if they try to force a stalemate by not finishing off your hatch so they can keep their own spine on creep indefinitely, to prevent your eventually superior force of drones+lings from killing him off.

Sometimes people leave 2 drones at home. Generally, this becomes a “Ling+Spine” pool instead, and as such requires that response instead, but if he doesn’t have a ling there shooing your drone off or have a defensive spine before you, you can just make it away from his 2 mining drones and that should help you out (2 drones only kill a morphing spine if they start on it absolutely immediately). If he brings all of his drones, but leaves a ling at home to shoo off your scouting worker, you can extractor trick it repeatedly until your drones arrive (just send 1 or 2 drones, as just 2 healthy drones beat a single ling, immediately when you see him send all his drones, and keep the rest mining at home for the very last second, so you don't lose your pool before it finishes morphing, and so you can bank more money).

You can also make the spine out of sight. I don’t recommend ‘cheesy’ or ‘coinflip’ answers to win games, but in this case, it’s not - the further from the mineral line, the more you deny mining, and with just 2 drones at home (or even less), he can’t kill it time, even if he decides to make lings at home. The point is to get it up ASAP - of course, the point of this guide is solid gameplay, so I’m not encouraging something like sneaking a spine as the only way to win. It is certainly easier though, so go for it if you can.

The next step of the base trade is quite important. You need to be morphing lings during this whole time, and you need to take care to rally them with utmost care so that they do not get attacked by the early pooler’s spine or units. If you can safely get 2 lings out of the base, and re-united with your drones, you will have enough units to simply a-move and win. If you cannot safely get 2 or more lings out, you will not win a battle without good micro and you may have to settle for a stalemate by camping the top of his ramp with your drones on hold position and your superior number of drones threatening a mineral walk on the cramped ramp, or hope the opponent gets antsy and tries to kill your spine while you put extractors all over the map and you go kill his spine.

If you can get 2 or more lings out, you can have a large enough force to simply kill him when the creep dissapears and he is forced to uproot his spine to keep it alive as his last building.

Make sure to uproot your spine when the creep starts to dissipate, or it will die (it won’t lose health if uprooted, even off creep). Sometimes you’ll even win because the opponent is too dumb to uproot his spine, which should be his last building, or doesn’t even make a spine and you just kill his pool+hatch. The opponent should not have enough money even for an extractor, and you can often just focus fire his spine. I would recommend that you do not make extractors on the map, as you want to keep as many units as possible. If the opponent splits his forces up, ever, try to engage one of the groups.

Famously, Losira held Kryix’s 8 pool twice in the same series going hatch first in the May GSL. What he did, was ran away and rallied lings to his drones, and then attacked when he pooled up enough lings. This response is okay against drone pulls, but will not work if the opponent morphs a spine in your base. If the opponent is not morphing a spine with his drone all-in, you can choose to stay close-by, and try to attack his units like when they are focusing a building and get a few free hits off, and even rely on good micro to come out further ahead, but just ‘Run Away’ until you have lings pop, and then engage the opponent. This is essentially the same scenario as a base trade - you are just staying away from the opponent until enough lings pop, and then you engage the opponent where there is no spine (either because he didn’t make one, or because he is forced to uproot when creep goes away). Because Kryix didn't make a spine, Losira was able to threaten with his drones an unfavorable engagement, and so Kryix wasn't able to kill off enough lings when they hatched (he killed only 1 of about 8 that were made), and so that was pretty poor by Kryix too.

The point of the spine is to protect yourself in the case the opponent denies you from getting enough lings out, or if you make a mistake, or get completely out-micro'd. Think of the spine as 'insurance' - to make sure that at worst, you will get a stalemate. Without a spine, it is quite possible you can lose, but with a spine, you can make sure you will at worst walk away with a stalemate. It can also secure a win if the opponent tries to force a stalemate, which he can definitely do. It also makes things a lot easier - but it is definitely necessary. There definitely are choices the opponent can make, but if you have a spine, it puts YOU in control, and allows a stalemate to become a win, and a loss to be a stalemate.

The opponent will do everything in his power to deny your zerglings from coming out. It is important you get at least 2+ lings out. Sometimes, and particularly on some maps, he can deny your lings from running off the ramp due to how the larva is positioned in relation to the ramp - it's near impossible for him to surround and deny every ling from popping, but it is possible for him to deny you from re-uniting your forces. The opponent can just not kill your hatch so the creep stays alive, so he can keep his spine, and then deny your army from re-uniting, to force a stalemate. If you were able to hatch at least 4 lings, you can win with a rooting spine + 18 drones + 4 lings, but if you weren't able to get 4 or more lings, you may have to settle for the stalemate.

It is okay if you can't exactly re-unite your forces - just keep the lings alive by juking around in the base. This may require some multi-tasking, but remember to stay focused on keeping at least 2 lings alive (you can regen the life, so don't worry about getting hit).

If you can escape with 2+ lings, just re-unite your forces, and attack after your hatch dies and the creep dissapears and he's forced to uproot (sometimes people are too dumb to uproot, and a rooted spine off creep will die while an unrooted one won't, so if he isn't uprooting just let it die and take the easy win). If he tries to force a stalemate by keeping your hatch/creep alive, bring your spine over (yes, slowly, but surely) and take on his spine+10lings+6drones with a rootingspine+18drones+4 lings. You can either focus down his spine, or simply straight up fight - a rooting spine, 4 lings, 18 drones, and possibly some broodlings, will beat his rooted spine, 6 drones, and 10 lings.

Just make sure that when the engagement occurs, you either use micro such as at least a single mineral walk, or the drones that are doddling in the back, manually command them over for a better surround.

So let me wrap up the exact numbers for you, since the opponent will always have 1 spine, 6 drones, and 10 lings:
18 Drones + 2 Lings crush 6 Drones + 10 Lings
18 Drones + 1 Lings loses.

18 Drones + 4 Lings + 1 Rooting Spine beat 6 Drones + 10 Lings + 1 Rooted Spine
18 Drones + 3 Lings + 1 Rooting Spine lose to 6 Drones + 10 Lings + 1 Rooted Spine

18 Drones beat 10 Lings with about 9 left.

There isn't much micro the opponent can do with his largely ling army, but there is a lot of micro you can do with drones (mineral walking, better surrounding). In the above scenarios, the only used micro was to correct the issue that when you have 18 drones engaging, what usually happens is just half of them engage and the other half bounce around in the back. The minimal micro I used was just grabbing a buggy 'chunk' and pulling them over and behind to get a better surround. This is very basic micro, and using actual micro like mineral walking, which is what you should be doing, would make things more effective. It wouldn't change the numbers too much, sadly, but you can maybe get away with one less ling if your micro'ing much better than the opponent.

And that’s GG!

The Stalemate
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If the drone all-inner can prevent you from getting more than 4 lings out (with proper surround on your eggs, or by out-juking your lings inside the base and getting a surround on them, or just mis-micro on your part), you may have to settle for a stalemate.

This is where making that spine, instead of an extractor, is especially important. If you didn't make a spine in their base, and they sent every drone out, this is where you would lose instead of stalemate.

Do NOT finish off their hatch before any of your lings pop - the only reason you can make it a stalemate with an army of 18 drones against 10 lings + 6 drones - which would win in any battle besides a Floral Arrangement of Death, which they can walk the spine over from the other side of the map to deal with - is because of your spine. So you will want to keep their hatch alive, so the creep stays alive. However, it is definitely a good idea to get it to the last inkling of health left, in case the situation warrants you finishing it off. Make sure to kill his pool, of course.

If you can't get at least 4 lings out, then only kill his hatch if he kills yours. If you can't get at least 2 lings out, then sadly, you can't kill off his hatch unless you are extremely confident in your micro (it would take pretty godly micro for just 18 drones to beat 10 lings + 6 drones, although I do believe it's possible, I'd recommend you settle for a stalemate instead).

As soon as your last bit of money is killed off by the opponent and you realize you cannot make any more lings, and you have less than 2 lings, you will need to reposition your spine (preferably before the opponent starts coming back, but it's okay if he arrives to the base and you are rooting, a rooting spine + 18 drones will crush 10 lings and 6 drones). There are two places to put the spine.

You can put it covering the ramp - because of his extremely low drone count and reliance of lings, he can't mineral walk past you. Have the spine cover the ramp, and your drones set in a concave above the ramp. While I did say that you don't want to engage in chokes, in general, with drones vs lings, it IS good to engage on a choke if you can mineral stack. The ramp is a perfect place to mineral walk, and if he tries to engage, just mineral walk down using the natural's mineral patches, and completely trap his units. With the added damage of the spine, you will win, and he won't be able to run away because he is totally surrounded. He may escape with 6 drones, but you should have a completely superior drone count, to which you can just demolish him. 18 drones will just beat 10 lings quite well, so if he's splits up, your roughly 9 remaining drones will destroy his 6. By positioning your spine and army above the ramp, you are declaring the opponent "I am going for a stalemate, and there is nothing you can do about it". If he's brash enough to try to run up the ramp though and take some hits or lose a unit or few, than you should chase after him and just kill him off, as an injured 10 lings+6 drones will lose to 18 drones.

Sometimes you may not be able to put the spine in range on the map - most of the old maps, like Steppes of War or Delta Quadrant or Scrap Station, or maps like Nerazim Crypt or Shattered Temple, just don't allow for the spine to cover the ramp. Sometimes, the opponent just slips past you on the ramp (maybe you totally screwed up the mineral walk on the ramp - it's easier if you only mineral walk half of the drones on the ramp, by the way - the ones that can't engage). So you'll want to put the spine covering the mineral line, behind it, so you aren't in range of their hatch. In such a situation, you will deny the opponent from mining, and can push a stalemate. The opponent can try to long distance mine, to which you should use it as an opportunity to pick at his units while they are split apart (you can also reposition the spine - for instance, if he leaves his lings to stop you from chasing after his drones, just run with the spine+drones after his lings).

If the opponent, somehow, gets past your ramp block, and tries to start mining again, there are two things you can do.

Option A, you can quickly finish off his hatch (you can do this with your spine or your drones), and then bumrush his spine. 18 drones surrounding his now-revealed spine will kill it before he can do anything about if you are even just slightly ahead of him. The only reason you couldn't do this before is because he can have his army hold position (both literally and figuratively) around his spine if his army is between you and the spine, but if he EVER lets your army get between his army and the spine, just go bumrush it because he can no longer hold around it.

Option B, you can simply go after his army and finish it off - the hits he took from your spine means he will lose, even if you don't have any lings at all. This should be pretty obvious - even if most of his army sneaks past your ramp block, you should've caught a good few and killed them off.

In short, sans explanation of the why
+ Show Spoiler +

See he pulled drones
Make a spine in his base with your scouting worker, faraway if he leaves 2 mining
Base trade

I will be putting a replay up about stalemating as well, against Bad_Habit himself.


Note: There is a particularly vicious type of early pool build, similar to this, where they leave 2 drones and a single ling at home. I will discuss this in Ling+Spine, as it is COMPLETELY different

Ling+Spine
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The thing about Ling+Spine is when he doesn’t pull every drone, is that (besides that you can’t base trade since he is mining at home) the spine forces you to fight.

This is the most micro intensive pool to deal with, but favor is on your side. The following is the build order for the most optimal ling+spine early pool - best done with 2 spines, actually.

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7Pool
Drone to 7
Drone scout at 7 if necessary
@100 Pool 3 sets of lings, send 2 drones to their base (including scouting workers)
@140 Minerals and Ling completion, Double Extractor Trick 2 more sets of lings
2 Spines, both on completely opposite sides of the opponent’s hatch, far apart from eachother, in range of the mineral line, when you have enough forces to secure them


When the opponent does not pull all his drones, then quite simply you can take his first 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones. When the opponent makes a single spine along with his lings, simply bring your drones out of the mineral line ‘opposite’ the side he tries to attack through, and a-move out in the open, and then dedicate 4 drones to the single spine. Most likely he won’t be dumb enough to actually engage your drones, but this will force him to cancel the spine as he can’t stop your 4 drones from attacking it. Don’t worry about engaging on creep - taking the time to move off creep is too much time wasted (mining time, mind you) and it’s not that big a deal, and spines can only be made on creep so you’ll have to fight on creep anyways. This is all there is to dealing with single spine pools with no drones pulled, so the rest of this section will be talking about double spine pools with no drones pulled.

You do NOT want to Run Away against no drones pulled, as the opponent is still mining, and when he denies you from mining, he is just getting a further and further macro lead to do whatever he wants with (even if it’s just 2 drones).

Now there are all sorts of micro tricks out there, and in Bad_Habit’s thread he even discusses a cute ‘hold position’ sort of micro, similar to pulling back units in a ranged vs ranged battle. Quite simply, not only is this recommended micro of his extremely difficult to execute, but it’s simply not the best thing you can be doing.

I’m not saying that “Oh this micro is 2 hard, so don’t do it” - what I’m saying is that this micro is completely useless, because there are better things to do, that just happen to be easier to execute.

Introducing Belial’s BossWalk! This new micro trick has just been discovered, by Yours Truly, and is extremely powerful with dealing with Ling+Spine variations of earlypool.

Now we all know how to deal with Ling + Single Spine right? You just dedicate 4 drones onto the spine, and attack with the rest - but what about Double Spine? Dedicating 4+4 drones out of ~15 drones means you are attacking his 6 lings with only ~7 drones - not a favorable engagement! He will pick off those 7 drones, then pick off 4 of the worker drones, then pick off the other 4 with reinforcing lings - Oh No’s!

So here’s how to do Belial’s BossWalk - When 2 (or hey, just one) spine is being morphed, simply select all of your drones, and position them so that his lings, and the spine, is in between your drones, and a mineral line. You can use your main’s mineral line for ease, but if you are really boss, you can use other mineral lines, like the mineral line in the natural.

[image loading]
Make him the monkey - uhh girl is the spine, guy is your drones, and just imagine a mineral line behind the spine ^^

Now, right click a mineral patch - the opponent will be forced to run away lest he get caught in a perfect drone surround and lose all his lings. If the opponent runs away, as expected, immediately right click on the morphing spine with all your drones. Bam! You should quickly take out the morphing spine, if not simply just one shot it! One spine down, rinse, repeat with the other spine. If he actually tries to engage with his lings, even better, you catch all his lings in a perfect surround. Finish off the trapped lings, and then finish off the spines.

If your drones start to get hurt, you can also just shift them just a inch away so ‘fresher’ drones are engaging, but don’t micro too much or you’ll simply lose too much health because you are being cute and trying to mineral walk every drone every time they get hit.

When done perfectly, you should be able to click on mineral patches, without even watching your drones, and simply hit a-move when you know the drones will be on top of the morphing spine (You know, you know how fast drones move, so by clicking on the mineral node, you know they will cover the distance to the spine right..... now! Get it?). If the lings are there, you catch them, if they ran off, you look back at the drones, which should be on top of the morphing spine, and just right click the spine. Eventually you can even be as dynamic as use multiple mineral lines, using whichever mineral line is best for the orientation of your drones, the morphing spine, and his lings.

Once your pool pops, simply make a bunch of lings. If a spine happens to finish, don’t worry, you should have done at least enough damage while it was morphing that with your lings and drones, you can finish it off without taking enough damage that you’d lose the game. If the spine is not in reach of the mineral line, you can just continue mining and wait for a queen to tank, to pop, or more lings to pop out - a hatch getting to 100 HP is perfectly okay.

And that’s GG!

In short, sans explanation of the why
+ Show Spoiler +

Attack after his lings with your superior numbers, when he backs off, snipe spine with all drones (using Belial’s BossWalk makes it easier).


Belial’s SoulCrusher 7 Pool
This build is something I’ve come up with, after internal testing. It traces it’s origins to the Bad Habit 7 pool Drone all-in, with theorycrafting and practical testing molding it into something similar, yet completely different. Here’s the build order!

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7 Pool
Drone to 7, scout if necessary
3 Lings, Send all but 2
@140 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick 2 more sets of lings
Leave those 2 drones at home to mine, and a single Ling
Single Spine in Enemy Base
Overlord and More Lings (Game should be decided already though, not necessary)


Now upon first glance, this seems like the exact same build. It’s NOT!

When your scouting worker sees that he keeps 2 drones at home, you’ll want to harass them, and deny mining as much as possible until you can make a spine. It’s important to cut his mining time down, or else he’ll get additional lings out early enough to deny the spine. By keeping those 2 drones mining, it means you can’t base trade anymore since he can make a spine before your drones arrive, or reinforce the fight and make lost mining time hurt.

Now - you see 2 drones mining. If he doesn't camp a single defensive ling to shoo away your scouting worker, then that is actually completely different. Just snip at the drones to deny mining to deny him from hatching a defensive ling, or make the spine far away. I'm not advocating a coinflip decision that's just banking on an unattentive opponent (granted, you can get away with it a lot on ladder and it does make things easier!), the merit is that it's further from the mineral line, making mining time even more cut for the 2 drones.

But, however, the deadliness of this build is the single defensive ling, denying any morphing spines. 2 drones and a single ling can definitely deny a morphing spine.

Technically, if they leave 2 drones at home mining, it becomes a Ling+Spine attack. Remember, they only have 7 drones (one is inevitably a spine, so if it's a 6 or 7 pool, regardless, meaning 4 drones maximum as part of an attack force), so sending 4 instead of 6 is a big deal - it's actually so large a deal, that, you can fight him head on. Assuming you can't take advantage of no defensive ling at his base to deny spines and get the ez-win like all drone all-in pools are, you will have to treat this like a Ling+Spine attack, and utilize the Belial BossWalk.

Even if he sends his units back to home to mine, and the spine gets up, it should be a scenario where, with even drone counts, and even increased mining time, you will be in the lead because of the cancelled hatch and the whole 18 drones mining all at the start for so long.

The difference, is that you WILL need lings, and lots of them. As soon as pool pops, make lots and lots of lings, and even saving 3 larva to be ready is a good idea.

I would recommend you don’t make an overlord against someone who leaves 2 drones at home and a single ling.

This is the only early pool that I ever lose to, although much more often than not, I beat it, whereas the other early pool builds I beat 100% of the time.

What happens if a Spine does get up?
Sometimes you can’t help it, and the spine just happens to get up. It’s okay, don’t panic, you should have done enough damage to have significantly lowered it’s health, and even if it’s been placed well, to deny mining, you should have enough stockpiled money to be okay.

Usually, you can use your remaining lings+drones to just surround the spine, and it’s often better to wait until a few more lings to pop rather than attack earlier - a pool, or hatch, both have a lot of life, and it’s quite okay if you let it drop to even 1/10th of it’s life, particularly if you happen to have a larger rather than smaller army.

But, if you see that spine morphing, and the opponent still has a significant army, it may be smart for you to start your own spine slightly out of range of it, or within range if you can make it early enough (usually you still have significant time on your pool so you won’t be able to make it the same time he makes his). You can use an uprooted spine to start rooting, and use it to tank damage while you rush in the rest of your forces. Either the spine will tank lots of damage for your ling+drone army to deal with it, or his spine will attack your ling+drone army so your spine can deal with it. Either way, if your spine ends up having more life than his, you should back away right then and there, and always try to pull away your drones when you know you have enough for it to go down.

Obviously, you want to make sure you don't have it so that your drones are surrounding the spine so much that they deny the lings from doing damage, as lings do more DPS than drones, but this is a 'good problem' to have, as it means you have so much stuff. If this is the situation, then you are probably winning - but of course, it's always better to pull back a drone or two or all if they are preventing however many lings you may have, from engaging. And if the lings are blocking your drones from getting in on the action, then you'll want to just run them away so they don't get hit. Even still, your drones are a priority, you wouldn't want a situation where your opponent still has a chance in the game because you're left with 5 drones!

It takes 8 lings to surround a spine. It takes 7 drones to fully surround a spine.

Follow-Up
+ Show Spoiler +
Now when drones are pulled obviously the game is quite over one way or the other, but sometimes you get into a situation where the game looks like it will just continue. You will need a follow-up!

So the best follow-up, is to get gas asap, as soon as you know you will hold. The earlier the better, and I’ll often make the gas before any lings are out, but when those first 6 lings are about to pop and push him back, or when the queen or spine is about to pop, are early enough too. Now, you can decide to either respond with speed, or banes.

Also, you will want a queen. Now, a queen is never a good idea to save your ass, but if the game is going to continue on (either you took a lot of losses, or the opponent is a stubborn asshole and he didn't drone all-in) you will of course need it. I would recommend getting the queen only when you know you are completely safe, or if you feel you are 'close enough' to holding that you are completely confident you don't need a spine or additional lings, and a queen would be sufficient to hold. Again, I must stress, I never recommend making a queen to save your ass, but if you feel confident that a queen will be all you need to push him back, and you don't need to rely on lings or a spine, and you are a total boss, go for it. Of course, you are going to win anyways, trying to 'further your macro lead' by making a queen instead of lings/spine is silly when you have 10+ drone advantage anyways, but, whatever.

If he has been aggressively reinforcing, I would recommend that you make a spine in your mineral line (if you haven't already), and get banelings. If the opponent got gas himself and transitioned into speedlings, banes are even more useful.

If the opponent is attempting to drone up (he has not been reinforcing and streaming lings all game long), just get ling speed, and simply overrun the opponent. Even defensive banes on what, the 10 drones he might have, won’t be able to hold against speedlings streaming in.

I don’t recommend expanding and trying to just macro quickly. It’s quite common for a 6 pool to simply transition into a roach all-in or some other type of all-in, and you can usually end the game with the huge macro lead you’ll have even with both of you on 1 base. However, there are two instances I’d recommend expanding, one is when the opponent gets double queen to block scouting. In these instances, simply get around 25-35 drones, and make pure units, and be sure to sac overlords to check if he’s going lair (1 base muta can be quite lame). No matter what he’s doing, with an evo chamber and 2 bases you will hold whatever he does.

The other is if you know the opponent is going to do a 1 base roach all-in as a follow up (yes you read that correctly - speedlings, 2 spines, and 2 hatch larva, especially with at least 1 queen injecting, will stop any 1 base roach all-in cold, especially if you have the macro lead from holding a 6 pool, you can read other guides in how to hold 1 base roach all-ins (hint hint, you use speedlings and 1-3 spines). This is actually the most common follow-up to a 6 pool.

If it’s late enough, you may want to put down a spore, and it’s a good idea to patrol a roach or ling around your base against Nydus play. 2 queens blocking the ramp is usually indicative of one of these two plays, or just 1 base roach massing (to which 2 base roaches will crush, or just 3 spines really).

How to 6 Pool, or The Counter-Strat
+ Show Spoiler +

I’ve already given how to beat early pools, and the build orders for them, so I’ll go over what an early pooler ‘should’ be doing to best execute their strategy, and what defenders should expect. I’ve practiced with a ton of people in the process of writing this guide, and I can tell you that there is a HUGE difference between a Diamond and Low Masters 6-pooling. After finishing this guide, I can tell you for sure that the guy who got to GM with 6 pool, he must have done it very well, and I’m sure he does it better than anyone else does. I would actually contend that anyone below Masters cannot 6 pool correctly, unless they have spent considerable practice time in customs, with a friend, dedicated, to perfecting their 6 pool. I would even say that most Masters do not correctly know how to 6 pool.

An easy example of why, is, for example, most people below Masters do not drone pair, and that makes a huge difference (I'll explain more later into this part though). Anyways.

The biggest priority for an early pooler is to deny mining. The more you deny mining, the bigger the lead you get, the less lings they can make. Makes the job easier.

Once you deny mining, the next target is between a pool and morphing eggs, depending on the stage of the game. If the pool is morphing, go for the pool. If the pool is finished, go for eggs. Generally, the opponent will have X amount of money, and when the pool pops they will spend it all off, so after those initial 3 lings, they won’t have money for many more. Finish off the next 2-3 sets of lings they attempt to get out, and then continue with the pool.

You will often want to take down the pool as fast as possible, but do not lose *anything* in the process of doing so! Do not target the pool if his drones are hanging around nearby, you will want to chase them off before targeting the pool.

Never target the hatch! The hatch takes too long to take down, and it’s never going to change the outcome of the game. Once the pool is down, go after the opponent and kill off their remaining forces. It’s better to engage his smaller army then let him add a few lings to it, making it much deadlier. The larva from a hatch will also hang around after the hatch goes down, which further makes targetting the hatch pointless.

If you see the opponent morphing lings, don’t target the hatch or the pool, just hang around the eggs, completely surround them with your units, wait and hold position. You cannot let them escape, don’t worry about the hatch, if they aren’t mining, they can’t morph infinite units, and just kill them when they hatch (you won’t be able to kill the eggs off). If the pool has completed, do not target the pool, hang around the larva and simply wait, patiently, and then set up a full surround on the eggs so when they pop, you can hit hold position, then attack, to completely surround the new lings and drones. If he isn’t mining, he won’t have much more than 100 minerals anyways, so once you’ve sniped about 2-4 lings, you can work on the pool hassle free.

Don’t ever chase the opponent if he runs away until after their pool goes down. You are just wasting your time, and NEVER engage Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death. You should also never engage the opponent with your initial units, only engage once you have reached Critical Mass. All you are doing is denying mining, and if you can do that, eventually you’ll have 50 lings against 18 drones, and then you can win. The biggest mistake I see of early poolers is that they actually ever engage (or worse, engage too early). You would be totally fine to actually never engage the opponent, ever, and as a general rule, you should never engage unless you have a spine up to cover you (with Infinite Ling, just wait until you have a huge critical mass, as your production of lings will be either greater or even the opponent until he gets a queen up).

If you are doing a drone all-in variation, I would strongly recommend you keep 2 drones mining and a single defensive ling. You are going to have an overwhelming force, so keeping 2 drones at home is fine. The hardest drone all-ins to deal with aren’t the ones that make a spine first thing, but the ones who make at-home defenses to deny the base trade (which is the only option for the defender). As soon as the opponent starts to run away, start making a defensive spine. The opponent can overwhelm it though with 18 drones, but it should help to lower the numbers.

If you are doing a ling+spine variation, go for 2 spines, and put both of the spines as far away as possible from eachother. Never let your lings get even attacked a single time, and be content to lose one of the spines if you can at least keep the other. With reinforcing lings, you might be able to win a micro battle as long as you deny mining as much as possible. Your spines should always cover the mineral line, and making a spine at the edge of their creep (besides being sneaky, which is great if you can do it and see no overlord hanging over their main) is not a great idea - you can either protect the spine, or you can’t, and being forced to cancel really hurts you. Just wait until you have a substantial army over, enough to ‘cover’ the spine, and make it in his face, so to speak, right behind the mineral line. Otherwise you just halfway hurt their hatch, and halfway hurting a hatch doesn’t mean anything.

Finally, it’s extremely important that you drone pair, and drone split. The ‘average’ 6 pooler will make a 47 or even 52 second 6 pool, but with good drone pairing and splitting, you can make a 43 second 6 pool, and with perfect pairing and 3 drone split you can get a 37 second 6 pool - that’s a 15 second difference! That’s HUGE! It’s really a big, big deal. It’s not crucial you drone pair and drone split as the defender, but of course, it always helps, but it IS crucial if you are 6/7/8 pooling. Check the timing of your pool - is your 6 pool down at 37 seconds? Also, you’ll want the drone sent to the spot before you hit 200 minerals, don’t send it at 200 minerals and have it planted at 220. Spare putting it somewhere clever and just put it as close as to where the drone was mining or by the side of the hatch (duh, they see 6/7 drones only, so ‘hiding’ the pool is useless).

If you are a 6 pooler, spend a few games just checking out when your pool goes down. Compare even old replays. What time is it down? Can you shave the time down? This is really crucial, and I've heard of platinums who were content to do 1:02 6 pools.

Conclusion
+ Show Spoiler +

As you can see, it has nothing to do with ‘godly micro’ to hold a 6/7/8 pool with hatch first. It’s just reacting correctly, and when you react correctly, it’s quite simple.

Also, regardless of this thread, the best way to beat a build (like 6 pool) is just practice with a friend! 6 pools are over within 3 minutes usually, so it’s not hard to spend an hour practicing 6 pool with a friend. It’s surprising how even many pros haven’t practiced against it.

If you have an questions (besides about me being a rube) please ask! If you are still having trouble against early pools after reading through this thread, or having trouble executing the above advice, or have come across a ‘new’ variation of early pool, please post the replay and we’ll look over it. I’ll even guarantee that any bronze level player, barring handicaps, can beat my Masters 6/7/8 pool of any variation on Steppes - if you can’t get it on your own, I’ll help you out (you have to send replays proving you tried, you followed what I stated in the guide, and are failing miserably and aren’t even close, and you posted the replay in here and no one else could help you out, lest I be inundated with replay help from everyone who doesn’t even play much).

And to state the obvious, please don’t PM me on B.net about me being wrong or prove it. I get too many PM’s now for talking about this already before making this official guide where people have said “You are wrong, you can’t beat drone all-ins”. I will just respond saying “You are correct sir, I am a fat liar” because chances 100% are that I’ve hashed it with someone who is a much better player than you, and I already know the answer. I don’t need to show a hold of hatch first vs a diamond level extremely common bad habit’s 7 pool drone all-in to everyone on ladder, and quite frankly it’s extremely rude. Also, don’t ask me to ‘Show You’ - watch the replays, try it out yourself, and if you are still having trouble after your provide replay proof in this thread, after following my guide, I’ll help you out, but PM me through TL, not B.net.

Of course, 9/10/11 pools beat Hatch First, so please, don’t post in here saying I’m a liar because your 10 pool is so gosu. A 10 pool and a 6 pool are completely different.

Replays
+ Show Spoiler +

The following replays occurred on Steppes of War against a Masters Zerg opponent. If anyone thinks they have a variation of 6/7/8 pool that is ‘unbeatable’ by Hatch first on Steppes, please PM me and we’ll hash it out. If you think the person in the replay is an incompetent scrub (besides myself, I know everyone hates me and thinks I’m a scrub anyways), and you think you can do better, please PM me and we’ll make a higher quality replay and we can post it here (obviously you winning a single time on ladder and then you flaunting it here isn’t validation).

Hopefully, this thread will serve the end that we will never see an early pool ever again. But if you do see it, you get some free ladder points. I only wish I could get to GM by never losing to 6/7/8 pools lol.

The Power of Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death
[image loading]
This replay is of a completely bad Masters Zerg doing a 52 second Bad Habit 7 Pool where he doesn’t double extractor trick - in other words, this replay is actually complete trash, because it’s on XNC and the opponent only did a single extractor trick and micro’d horribly and made a million mistakes. The virtue of this replay, however, is proving how good Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death is, and I actually don’t lose a single drone against his 8 Lings + 6 Drones in a fight. A stupid engagement by him, the guy was a complete idiot, but as an example of Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death, how easy it is to execute, and how strong it is, this is a good replay. I would recommend watching this to learn the virtue of this micro trick.

On a side note, I wouldn’t recommend doing this micro trick against Drone all-ins because most people aren’t so stupid to engage, and will wait for the spine to come up, but the only reason the game unfolded this way was because how aggressive he was when his initial lings arrived and I was just milking the last possible mining time I could before running away, and to my pleasant surprise he actually just engaged.

My Average APM was 96 and my APM generally sat around 240, but literally, all this was, was me just having all my drones selected, and spamming right click on a mineral patch, then hitting ‘a-move’, then going back to spamming until I knew the drone attack cooldown wore off - anyone can spam right click.

Again, it was 8 lings + 6 drones vs 16 drones, and I don’t lose a single drone, using literally the easiest micro in the world.


Infinite Ling on Steppes of War
[image loading]

Double Spine 7 Pool No Overlord on Steppes of War
The Power of Belial’s BossWalk
[image loading]
In this game I made micro errors by not adding morphing eggs to my group/hotkey, which is a basic mistake - to totally ignore less than perfect micro in general in this game. Even with it being on Steppes, less than perfect micro, and the glaring micro blunders, I came out 2 drones, 6 lings, and 2 overlords ahead. This replay should be proof enough of the concept, and bronzies can understand the mistake I made in not having a complete hotkey group and idling units, and Steppes. Regardless of mistakes, I came out way ahead.

This is also an example of my BossWalk - you can see I look to my natural’s mineral field to deal with his spines, although in hindsight just using my main’s mineral field and pro-active drone positioning would’ve been better. It does show the concept


Bad_Habit’s 7 Pool Drone all-in Single Spine on Steppes of War
[image loading]

Belial’s Soulcrusher 7 Pool Drones with Single Spine and 2 drones mining on Steppes
[image loading]

The Stalemate Situation against the Bad Habit 7 Pool Drone All-in on Xel'Naga Caverns
Ft. Special Musical Guest Star: Bad Habit

[image loading]
Bad Habit completely out-played me, and I stupidly wasn't paying attention to my lings and ran them right into his army after I was able to escape from his egg surround. I should have kept them inside my base and juked around, but instead I made the huge blunder of trying to rejoin forces too desperately. He kills my hatch so he cannot force a stalemate for himself, but since I didn't get a single ling out and even lost 2 drones because I stupidly attacked his spine at the start, I force the stalemate instead of lose.

Bad_Habit insists he lost because of something to do with his spine, but fact of the matter is that I forced the stalemate by having my army by my spine. Once he ran up the ramp, he lost the game because he took too much damage, and also allowed my drones to run past his army to focus his spine. I wasn't quite sure what I was doing at the moment, so afterwards I looked into how stalemates occur and what to do in such situations, and wrote The Stalemate section.

It comes down to me stupidly losing way more than 2 of my lings, and I only needed to get 2 lings out, and him refusing to stalemate by killing my hatch

I did win though ^^


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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-29 04:17:03
December 16 2011 09:16 GMT
#2
How Many X does it take to Beat Y?
Good Question! Here's some math for you. No micro was used, except to make sure in larger engagements units 'stuck' in the back were moved well up around and front. Mineral walking would definitely improve the odds, or simple hold position micro done 2-3 times in a battle.

Drone vs Ling
1 Drone loses to 1 Ling. Duh right? Well, this is interesting...
2 Drones beat 1 Ling, with no losses (no micro either)
3 Drones beat 2 Lings, with 2 losses (it is possible that the 2 lings win with 1 hit left if positioning is super poor, like one drone runs in way ahead of others, but a 'clump' of 3 drones, or just a single micro pull-back, is enough)
4 Drones beat 2 Lings, with 1 loss (with just one pullback micro, no losses)
10 Drones beat 5 Lings, with 3 losses (micro or mineral walk can beat it with zero losses)
18 Drones beat 10 Lings with about 9 left
18 Drones beat 12 Lings with about 5 left
18 Drones lose to 14 Lings

vs Spine
11 Drones beat 1 Spine with 3 left
7 Lings beat 1 spine with 2 left (dont stream them in, have them clumped up)

vs Morphing Spine
3 Drones kill a morphing spine
3 Drones barely kill a morphing spine halfway done, will one 1 hit left
2 Drones can kill a morphing spine only if they get on it immediately - if it's more than 1/5th done, spine will win

1 Ling can stop a morphing spine - if it's more than 1/4th done, spine will win
2 Lings can stop a morphine spine - if it's more than 2/3rds done, spine will win (if you attack at 190/300, last ling and spine die same time!)

vs Rooting Spine
6 Lings can kill a spine rooting with 1 hit left (lings have to attack same time spine starts rooting)

8 Drones can kill a spine rooting with 4 left
7 Drones can kill a spine rooting with 3 left
6 Drones can't

vs Drone All-ins
18 Drones + 2 Lings crush 6 Drones + 10 Lings
18 Drones + 1 Lings loses

18 Drones + 4 Lings + 1 Rooting Spine beat 6 Drones + 10 Lings + 1 Rooted Spine
18 Drones + 3 Lings + 1 Rooting Spine lose to 6 Drones + 10 Lings + 1 Rooted Spine

18 Drones beat 10 Lings with about 9 left

Additional Info
A spine has 2 armor, a morphing spine doesn't

It takes 8 lings to surround a spine. It takes 7 drones to fully surround a spine

An uprooted spine does not lose health, even off creep

Can a mod edit the title to make "[G]Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beat 6 Pool ZvZ". I didn't mean to hit post, I was hitting preview over and over, doing final edits

and why are the images broken on the replay files ><
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
mooseman1710
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States153 Posts
December 16 2011 09:50 GMT
#3
drones do far too much dps when microed correctly
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 16 2011 09:54 GMT
#4
Wow, I put so much effort and work and time into this guide. The first post it gets is hilarious.

Yes. I suppose they do do a lot of dps. It's not about micro though - micro actually lowers their dps. That's a big point (not the whole point, just a big one). Generally, the person with the smaller army (in this case, the 6 pooler) has to micro to make things works. The person with the bigger army, generally wants to engage in the open, and has to micro less.

Thus, a big drive to this guide was discovering how to beat 6 pools without using any micro at all. I actually went as far to find out the extreme least amount of micro necessary to play, and in most cases, you can just a-move in the situations above except when specific micro is necessary, as I explain in the guide.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
mooseman1710
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States153 Posts
December 16 2011 10:02 GMT
#5
haha i didnt mean to belittle your efforts. i really appreciate your bosswalk seriously gonna bosswalk through some lings as soon as my exams are over
FinestHour
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18466 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 10:03:46
December 16 2011 10:02 GMT
#6
Nice guide but you put way too much emphasis on finding strange names for very basic and very old techniques and then putting your name in front. Belial flower arrangement of death is just basic worker stacking rofl.
thug life.                                                       MVP/ex-
mooseman1710
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States153 Posts
December 16 2011 10:04 GMT
#7
yes micro lowers DPS, but if you are doing the flower arrangement, i dont think anyone can argue that that is micro >higher DPS than if you were to a move ur drones
Macpo
Profile Joined September 2010
453 Posts
December 16 2011 10:11 GMT
#8

"The Power of Belial’s Floral Arrangement of Death"...

ahah this is very cute... So Belialesque

"Courage consists, however, in agreeing to flee rather than live tranquilly and hypocritically in false refuges." G. Deleuze
C[h]ili
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany167 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 10:23:33
December 16 2011 10:20 GMT
#9
So, you are the reason I actually signed up, after a long time of passive reading. Be proud

Thanks alot for the profound guide on how to stop 6-pool. The amount of effort you have put into this guide is really impressive.

Just want to mention a few things. First, and in case I understand you correctly, the Belia's flower of death is already known and suggested by the master himself. See



One issue I see with your argument is that you go 15 hatch in the assumption a 6 pool is incoming. Still, while hatch first certainly is common, it has other drawbacks. So I wonder whether you suggestions are helpful in a situation where you go, say, 14 pool? I think your guide might benefit from elaborating on this a bit. There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.

Also, against drone-allin you suggest building linges from your main hatch. Do you think it is feasible to surround your eggs perfectly and hence denying you reinforcing your drone army with lings?

So, forgive my noobish babble. Your guide gave a very interesting read and is important to all zerg buddies around.

For the swarm.
blackodd
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden451 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 10:41:49
December 16 2011 10:36 GMT
#10
On December 16 2011 19:20 C[h]ili wrote:
So, you are the reason I actually signed up, after a long time of passive reading. Be proud



Same for me.. I never knew flowers could be so deadly yet beautiful.
This guide is important because 6/7pool has always been a strange opening, some people see it as autolose, some as autowin. It's time we dispel the mystery around this retarded all-in.

The spine and drone transfer to his base was fucking brilliant
For I am the Queen of Blades. And none shall ever dispute my rule, again...
HwangjaeTerran
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Finland5967 Posts
December 16 2011 10:36 GMT
#11
Is this inspired by Boris Kakhukakov ?
https://steamcommunity.com/id/*tlusernamehere*/
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 10:43:13
December 16 2011 10:39 GMT
#12
Nice guide but you put way too much emphasis on finding strange names for very basic and very old techniques and then putting your name in front. Belial flower arrangement of death is just basic worker stacking rofl.


2. or 3 I guess, if you include the Belial's Soulcrusher 7 Pool build. I don't. But none of those were ever done before, I'm pretty confident to say, although it's possible to argue Belial's Floral Arrangement of Death has been done before (bad habit had a vod about it, but no name).

yes micro lowers DPS, but if you are doing the flower arrangement, i dont think anyone can argue that that is micro >higher DPS than if you were to a move ur drones


I'm a little confused on what you are saying here, but technically it lowers your dps than if you were to a-move, but the virtue is how it keeps your drones alive (just like mutalisk stacking in BW), and how it forces the opponent to fight in a sort of 'choke', and how it allows you to essentially focus fire 18 drones onto a single unit when only maybe 5 could even engage in a legit surround.

One issue I see with your argument is that you go 15 hatch in the assumption a 6 pool is incoming. Still, while hatch first certainly is common, it has other drawbacks. So I wonder whether you suggestions are helpful in a situation where you go, say, 14 pool? I think your guide might benefit from elaborating on this a bit. There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.


Welcome to TL, glad to see a new poster ^^

Well first off, I actually go 14 hatch, not 15 hatch, but that is besides this guide of which is better (14 hatch was proven to be better economically, no?). I don't go hatch first in the assumption a 6 pool is coming, I go hatch first knowing I will be safe against 6 pool.

Make sense?

Okay, let me put it this way - you have to cancel the hatch first against 6 pool. While even wth a hatch cancel you will still win, you will be even more ahead if you just not make that hatch at all. So if, for some reason, like close air spawn metalopolis, or my opponent is a predictable person, and I know a 6 pool is incoming before 14 supply, I will simply just make the pool and not make the hatch.

As for going 14 pool over hatch first, I will discuss that in a future ZvZ guide. But basically, you should be going hatch first 100% of the time on ladder. The only time you should be doing 10 pools or 14 pools is in a tournament or Best Of Series or against a friend, when metagaming/mind-gaming each other becomes a factor.

On ladder, the odds are better to just hatch first every game, and take your losses against anyone who 10 pools (they are losing way more than winning with such a niche build anyways). But if you are playing against a particular person over and over, or just a friend, then yea, things liek hatch first vs 10 pool vs 14 pool become an issue. That's the only time I'd recommend going 14 pool, when you think they are going to 10 pool you.

But that's totally besides this guide. Mind games are completely outside this guide. Like, this guide is about solid play. I can't say, "You should 10 pool, because it always beats hatch first, even though it loses to the very common 14 pool". The factors about 'mind games' are completely different. Like I'd say if you see a single gas on protoss, it means 4 gate, but they could also take their other gas and just not mine it, to fake you out - that's metagaming, something sort of beyond.

Anyways, I'd contend that 14 pool no gas is a better 'pool first' build since it would be safe against early pools and better against 14/14, like go 14 pool maybe 18ish gas for defensive banes... but whatever.

There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.


A hatch cancel is 225 minerals. You also are mining until the last moment. You should easily have 300 minerals when you finally have to stop mining.

In theorycraft, you could make an extractor as a last building instead of a spine, but personally, I have never made it work without a spine, and even theorycraft wise, it's much harder than building a spine. You should always have excess minerals anyways, so why not make a spine instead of an extractor, it's only 75 more minerals and you should have way more than an extra 75 minerals.

You don't really need that many lings. 3 x 50 = 150 + spine = 250 minerals. Just the hatch cancel will give you enough for 3 sets of lings and a spine.

18 drones + 6 lings >>>> 6 drones + 10 lings. Like >>>>>>>> more.

Also, against drone-allin you suggest building linges from your main hatch. Do you think it is feasible to surround your eggs perfectly and hence denying you reinforcing your drone army with lings?


I suppose it's 'possible' but I've never seen it done perfectly. If it's really a problem, like you see he has a tight surround on your eggs, just make drones instead of lings, and they will mineral walk through. 20 drones is better than 18 drones if he is denying lings from hatching. If it is really that bad in the game, you can just camp the ramp. Lings can't mineral walk and he only has 6 drones at most, so if you camp the ramp, you can do a perfect mineral slide and just fuck him up. 20 drones will beat 10 lings + 6 drones when you mineral slide on a ramp.

But generally, you will be able to escape enough lings. Just watch your eggs, and set the rally so the lings go through where it's sort of 'open'.

That's also why you have an overlord watching them, and you should count his numbers when he's attacking your buildings. You can literally just count every single drone, and sort of do the math yourself ... "okay I have X drones and Y lings, he has X1 drones and Y1 lings, so I know I will win/lose an engagement right now". In this sort of base trade scenario, you sort of are just sitting there attacking his base, or sitting, or whatever, and his army size won't be that big anyways, so it won't be hard to count his exact numbers to figure things out, and you can run away to regen life (generally a base trade to army trade scenario has enough time to regen life anyways).
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fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
December 16 2011 10:58 GMT
#13
Yay!

Finally! I deeply appreciate the work you made here (and I somewhat remembered your name from somewhere else, you must have made another good guide...) so thanks to you OP!
neoghaleon55
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7435 Posts
December 16 2011 11:19 GMT
#14
welcome back belial.
It's nice to see such effort on your return.
I'll definitely check your replays...my zvz needs work.
moo...for DRG
chestnutcc
Profile Joined July 2011
India429 Posts
December 16 2011 11:21 GMT
#15
In the infinite ling replay, your opponent forgets to cancel the extractors when going the double extractor trick. Not a zerg player, but always glad for these micro tips! While the floral arrangement is well, a flowery name for defensive drone stacking, the BossWalk is v nice variation to know, do you think it has applications in fending off cannon cheese?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 11:40:11
December 16 2011 11:36 GMT
#16
^ Yes, he did make that mistake. It didn't really matter though - by the time an early pooler would make an overlord, the game has already been decided (either the rush has been held off, or the defender is dead).

I'd be more than willing to remake the replay with a Masters Zerg who can drone pair though. But as you see in the replay, my spine was already making. Any more lings would not have arrived before the spine finished.

No I do not think the BossWalk has much application outside of 6 pools with spines. You can't really surround and trap a building, since they aren't running anywhere. The BossWalk works because it's sort of a mineral walk - in an a-move you'd lose, but with a mineral walk, you'd get a perfect surround instantly and win. It forces the opponent to back off, which allows you to attack the spine since they momentarily cannot defend it.

I suppose some sort of Zealot+Cannon rush maybe? But a Zealot+Cannon rush would come so late that you'd deal with it using units and static D, not drones. The Floral Arrangement of Death does not have much application elsewhere either, as your micro would be better spent on sending over your army or something - despite being very easy to pull off, it's near impossible to do anything else but a task or two. I suppose if a ling run-by occured, you could do it to 'save' the drones, and just quickly a-move your army over, and then do it to keep your drones safe until your forces arrived. I suppose you would save more than mineral walking the drones away. But your multi-tasking becomes limited with the Floral Arrangement of Death, so you may be better just mineral walking the drones away, send your army over to deal with it, and then, you know, continue on with macro and drops and whatnot.
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barrykp
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland174 Posts
December 16 2011 11:40 GMT
#17
Your advice for 14/14 is to start going hatch first? I don't even hatch first in ZvT; I haven't a clue how to do it :s
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 11:49:57
December 16 2011 11:46 GMT
#18
^Yes, I lost a lot of games before I started winning too. Now, being comfortable going hatch first, I believe I win much more because of it. A lot more. Definitely enough to push a highly ranked diamond into masters, like it did for me.

Of course, you can stick to 14/14 and just generally improve and still rank up. It's just a very concrete, definitive way, to improve your game. It's not like, say "oh just macro better" or "just multitask better" - learning how to simply hatch first, is a clear-cut way (just like learning how to stop all types of 6 pool) to improve your play.

I am going to be putting up a ZvZ guide, but basically, I go 14h/15p/14g, get banelings immediately when pool pops, get 4 banes, defend with banes + spine until opponent expands (and if he doesn't expand, just make only lings and add a second spine and just make only units and more banes and spines), make about 6-8 banes and then basically make only drones until he shows signs of aggression. 14/14 ling/bane can be hard to deal with at first, so basically you should just practice going hatch first vs 14/14 ling bane all-in, as it's quite common as a response, but you should always beat it once you figure yourself out. Just spend an hour doing it.

As for ZvT... you should always hatch first in ZvT, I don't know why you wouldn't do that. Terran has absolutely no way to stop a hatch first, they don't send super early scouts like Protoss that can worker-block the spot, and it's actually safer to hatch first against 2 rax or proxy rax, because you need the creep and larva ASAP, as a queen inject won't come in time, and you need a queen to pop at the natural, as walking one down won't arrive in time, and you need a spine planted, or else SCV all-ins will kill you. If you go, say, 14/14 against an aggressive 2 rax, they can just bunker block you (particularly on nasty ladder maps, damnit why no neutral depot) or bunker contain you and macro up themselves, and make 2 bunkers at home or marauders to deal with the inevitable 1 base roach all-in.

Anyways, I'd rather avoid talking about hatch first and other match-ups. The point of this guide is beating 6 pool - if you are uncomfortable with hatch first, then take this guide as how to beat 6 pool with your normal 14/14 build. The point of hatch first on steppes was essentially to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that you can beat 6 pool with any zerg build, so if you can do it on steppes with hatch first, just take that as how to beat 6 pools on ladder maps when you go pool first. The answer is the same if you go pool first, just more 'lax' - you can potentially just make lings and be okay, as they will be out early enough, or you can just do the 'answers' provided and be happy you'll get it done earlier
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chestnutcc
Profile Joined July 2011
India429 Posts
December 16 2011 11:47 GMT
#19
Ahh, okay I misunderstood the BossWalk, thinking it was used to take down morphing buildings like a drone drill. Just an offhand note, I usually find my click speed faster when left clicking rather than right clicking, so for me, executing the defensive drone stack by g-click rather than right click would work faster. Also synergizes with a-click better I think.
HaIf
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada234 Posts
December 16 2011 11:48 GMT
#20
Pretty great guide, lots of useful information!

I'm really curious to see a replay where you drop a 0:37 pool, as the best I've been able to get after like half an hour is 0:41 and I thought I did everything perfectly!
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 11:49:44
December 16 2011 11:49 GMT
#21
repost.
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 11:51:44
December 16 2011 11:51 GMT
#22
I'm really curious to see a replay where you drop a 0:37 pool, as the best I've been able to get after like half an hour is 0:41 and I thought I did everything perfectly!


41 seconds is pretty good.

37 seconds require a nice map for it, like Shakuras, and you have to get perfect drone pairing immediately, if any refuse and bounce off then you won't get 37 seconds. You have to do it quickly as well, I think 2 before the first drone is made, and the next 2 before the 2nd one.

I'll post one up though.
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HaIf
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada234 Posts
December 16 2011 11:54 GMT
#23
On December 16 2011 20:51 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
I'm really curious to see a replay where you drop a 0:37 pool, as the best I've been able to get after like half an hour is 0:41 and I thought I did everything perfectly!


41 seconds is pretty good.

37 seconds require a nice map for it, like Shakuras, and you have to get perfect drone pairing immediately, if any refuse and bounce off then you won't get 37 seconds. You have to do it quickly as well, I think 2 before the first drone is made, and the next 2 before the 2nd one.

I'll post one up though.

Hmm, I've been doing on Steppes as I assumed that was the map you were using. I'll try it on Skakuras right now~
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 12:18:04
December 16 2011 12:14 GMT
#24
I think XNC might be better. Bad_Habit said in his thread that it was 37 seconds that he could get it the quickest.

I could only get 39 seconds on XNC. Maybe that's why he's GM with it lol.

I'm pretty sure it's... theoretically possible (not sure about humanly possible) if you have a map where there are 3 mineral patches that are extremely close - as in so close, that all 3 are as close as the closest mineral patch on Shakuras (that middle one). For example, on XNC, it has sort of 2 pods of 3 mineral patches, then 2 in the middle, and there are sort of 4 'optimal' patches - 2 on each 'side' of the nodes on the sides. The 'inner' patches that are 'closer' are actually a tad bit further away from the hatch than the 2 most outher patches, which actually results in a 2 second later pool if you perfectly pair.

I'm not sure what the 'perfect' map is, but it'd require 3 perfectly super close mineral patches. I don't think shakuras has it. I'm not sure what map if any has it I suppose.

As for humanly possible, I'm not sure. I was playing on Slow also lol. But I could definitely tell on a better mineral field I could get 37 seconds.
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evils_death
Profile Joined August 2010
77 Posts
December 16 2011 12:21 GMT
#25
Not yet finished reading, but as someone who hatch firsts in virtually every zvz, this is incredibly useful :3 A good thing to note is that people doing early pools really have no idea what they're doing and are too used to free wins to hatch first, giving you much chance to outplay them.
HaIf
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada234 Posts
December 16 2011 12:22 GMT
#26
Yeah, I get 0:38 on XNC and I'm sure I can get it down to 0:37, so that makes sense I guess, still takes crazy optimization!
Can't get it below 0:40 on Shakuras but I'll take your word for 0:39 ^^

It's amazing what double pairing does for pool timings!
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 12:31:33
December 16 2011 12:25 GMT
#27
Yea, I mean I think we can agree that simple drone pairing while your twiddling your thumbs can shave a good 10 seconds off the pool timing, which can be a great help. There's nothing else you are doing.

And so many pros don't drone pair cough idra and destiny cough ><

Not yet finished reading, but as someone who hatch firsts in virtually every zvz, this is incredibly useful :3 A good thing to note is that people doing early pools really have no idea what they're doing and are too used to free wins to hatch first, giving you much chance to outplay them.


Oh yea, for sure. Given that I would contend that everyone below masters can't really 6 pool well, and that most people aren't masters, and even most masters probably don't know how to perfectly do it (I spent hours and hours and days figuring out how to hold 6 pool - I wonder how many 6 poolers out there besides bad habit, or anyone really besides pros, have spent so much time refining a build/anti-build as we have, so obviously there's that, I'm not saying I'm a better human or anything, just practice and refinement), yea, you can really get away with a lot more on ladder.

I actually win about 50% of the games I get 6 pooled, even in masters, by people who attack my Floral Arrangement of Death. (Floral Arrangement of Guile in this case, hehe) - they know to back off when I try to mineral walk them, but when I stack up, they attack it, and suddenly their 10 lings just dissapear. Suddenly they pull back from the huge mess of units and are like wtf i had 16 units and now I have 2 lings where'd they go?!? and then they see me pull out with 18 drones that just looked like a single drone.

Then you can win a lot of them because you kill their spine and they didn't cancel and now no spine with their ling+spine rush, effectively neutering them completely because now it's just a laughable 6 lings. Or they make it super early, before their army arrives, and are forced to cancel. Never make the spine until your army arrives, in full! Not just the first 6 lings!

And then it's funny when you make a spine in their base too. Regardless of what variation is going on, you can always attempt to put a spine in their base with your scouting worker, which is quite funny, and most of the time they don't even notice an enemy spine is morphing inside their mineral line.

If only I could reach GM by beating 6 pools ;/
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HaIf
Profile Joined January 2010
Canada234 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 12:41:41
December 16 2011 12:32 GMT
#28
Yes of course, I was just curious where you got your numbers from!

It's also really annoying to stop them from splitting up again once they are stacked... silly drones.

Edit: Most definitely possible! Had 200 minerals at 0:37 :D
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
evils_death
Profile Joined August 2010
77 Posts
December 16 2011 12:41 GMT
#29
On December 16 2011 21:25 Belial88 wrote:
Yea, I mean I think we can agree that simple drone pairing while your twiddling your thumbs can shave a good 10 seconds off the pool timing, which can be a great help. There's nothing else you are doing.

And so many pros don't drone pair cough idra and destiny cough ><

Show nested quote +
Not yet finished reading, but as someone who hatch firsts in virtually every zvz, this is incredibly useful :3 A good thing to note is that people doing early pools really have no idea what they're doing and are too used to free wins to hatch first, giving you much chance to outplay them.


Oh yea, for sure. Given that I would contend that everyone below masters can't really 6 pool well, and that most people aren't masters, and even most masters probably don't know how to perfectly do it (I spent hours and hours and days figuring out how to hold 6 pool - I wonder how many 6 poolers out there besides bad habit, or anyone really besides pros, have spent so much time refining a build/anti-build as we have, so obviously there's that, I'm not saying I'm a better human or anything, just practice and refinement), yea, you can really get away with a lot more on ladder.

I actually win about 50% of the games I get 6 pooled, even in masters, by people who attack my Floral Arrangement of Death. (Floral Arrangement of Guile in this case, hehe) - they know to back off when I try to mineral walk them, but when I stack up, they attack it, and suddenly their 10 lings just dissapear. Suddenly they pull back from the huge mess of units and are like wtf i had 16 units and now I have 2 lings where'd they go?!? and then they see me pull out with 18 drones that just looked like a single drone.

Then you can win a lot of them because you kill their spine and they didn't cancel and now no spine with their ling+spine rush, effectively neutering them completely because now it's just a laughable 6 lings. Or they make it super early, before their army arrives, and are forced to cancel. Never make the spine until your army arrives, in full! Not just the first 6 lings!

And then it's funny when you make a spine in their base too. Regardless of what variation is going on, you can always attempt to put a spine in their base with your scouting worker, which is quite funny, and most of the time they don't even notice an enemy spine is morphing inside their mineral line.

If only I could reach GM by beating 6 pools ;/


The floral arrangement of death sounds awesome lol. Really gonna help buy time and suprise people. I also facepalmed myself when I read about your BossWalk, as I've been losing to double spines every time.... It's so simple yet effective lol.

Thanks so much for the guide.... This really makes me want to delay learning 14/14 more XD
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
December 16 2011 13:14 GMT
#30
You just fixed all my ZvZ

much appreciated
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
Whoami777
Profile Joined August 2010
United States8 Posts
December 16 2011 14:12 GMT
#31
This is a very good guide! thank you for sharing!
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
December 16 2011 14:44 GMT
#32
Why anyone would attack anything that's not threatening your spine is beyond me... and I always said that the best way by far to beat a 6pool drone allin is buling a spine on OPPONENT'S creep, because chances are he won't be able to kill a standing spine with the remaining units.
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AfricanPsycho
Profile Joined December 2011
South Africa158 Posts
December 16 2011 14:49 GMT
#33
This is a great guide, will really held less experienced players and put an end to cheezers! You should make a Protoss guide covering different openers (FFE, 1 gate expo etc)
gg no re
marvellosity
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom36161 Posts
December 16 2011 14:50 GMT
#34
Nice guide. I'm a Protoss player and I enjoyed just reading it ^^
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ElPeque.fogata
Profile Joined May 2010
Uruguay462 Posts
December 16 2011 14:53 GMT
#35
i've been having quite some success against all forms of 6 pool at "high" masters just going mass spines against all kinds of 6 pool + spine/s.

i don't save larva, just make all drones to the end and make 3 spines within my mining drones the moment the pool finishes (and/or another spine at his base with my drone scout), and then lings from that moment on until i know i survived. sometimes i make a 4th spine as soon as i have enough minerals.

the idea is that it doesn't matter that his spine finishes before yours, cause you will have more of them. If he tries to kill your spines you will delay as much as possible with a combination of mineral walking, drones on hold, attacking when he focus fires drones and mineralwalking the hurt ones, etc. If his spine is too close, try to lower his health with a couple drones without commiting just to improve your spines chance to win, as you might have to uproot them to clear the threat on your mineral line. and that should be possible cause you have more spines than he does. 2 spines can root to kill an already rooted spine, that is why your third spine helps, by protecting the rooting ones from being attacked by drones and lings.

if his spines are just hitting your hatch you just let him and constantly make lings for the big fight in which you should have a lot more than he does, as you've been mining a lot more. add a queen or more spines if you can't spend fast enough because of larvae.

putting down a spine means "x seconds from now, i will have a lot more dps and hitpoints than you", so engage me now and i'll screw you by killing your stuff while you hit the spine that i may even cancel, or wait till its done and be fucked by the spine itself . So you are fucked cause you will be chasing air.

so you can put your own spines and play the same game. the difference is that you have a lot more spines but a little later, a lot more drones, but less lings.
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iHirO
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United Kingdom1381 Posts
December 16 2011 15:58 GMT
#36
So, can we setup a BO7 with you and Habit and put your theories to the test?
GraphicsThis is for all you new people: I only have one rule. Everyone fights. No one quits. You don't do your job, I'll shoot you myself. You get me?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 16:17:31
December 16 2011 16:11 GMT
#37
Why anyone would attack anything that's not threatening your spine is beyond me... and I always said that the best way by far to beat a 6pool drone allin is buling a spine on OPPONENT'S creep, because chances are he won't be able to kill a standing spine with the remaining units.


Um, that's not exactly why you build the spine, and in all honesty, the spine is actually kind of pointless. It's just a last building to have because he's killing your hatch and pool, and you might as well make it a spine instead of extractor because you should have a ton of banked minerals, so the extra cost isn't an issue, and spines can walk.

He actually will have enough to kill it with his remaining units, but all that's really going on is that you are running your drone away, and making lings, and once you have enough lings and rallied your forces together, you attack, and win.

The spine gives a sort of 'safe haven' so you can rally your lings to it and have your drones hang there and not be chased by the opponent, but you can just as easily run circles around the map until your lings pop. It also sort of puts pressure back on the opponent, but if they are decent they should know it doesn't matter.

Because eventually, you two are going to have to fight eachother. So the spine actually isn't why you win or lose the game, it just makes things a bit easier for you. But it is never actually used for fighting purposes...

You should make a Protoss guide covering different openers (FFE, 1 gate expo etc)


By protoss guide, you mean ZvP? I plan to, but it will be a while getting replays and vods banked up for it. I plan to make the ZvZ guide first, it's mostly done but I need replays and I have to start from scratch basically... I think I may rely on vods instead. And I try not to watch vods (better to play than watch).


i don't save larva, just make all drones to the end and make 3 spines within my mining drones the moment the pool finishes (and/or another spine at his base with my drone scout), and then lings from that moment on until i know i survived. sometimes i make a 4th spine as soon as i have enough minerals.

the idea is that it doesn't matter that his spine finishes before yours, cause you will have more of them. If he tries to kill your spines you will delay as much as possible with a combination of mineral walking, drones on hold, attacking when he focus fires drones and mineralwalking the hurt ones, etc. If his spine is too close, try to lower his health with a couple drones without commiting just to improve your spines chance to win, as you might have to uproot them to clear the threat on your mineral line. and that should be possible cause you have more spines than he does. 2 spines can root to kill an already rooted spine, that is why your third spine helps, by protecting the rooting ones from being attacked by drones and lings.


Very interesting! I would love to chat with you online, or see a few replays of this, where you are against masters 6 poolers (or ones that competently execute the pool - I could do it to you as well. I've tried working out alternate solutions but I haven't been able to find any.

The solution you propose also seems to be less micro intensive than the one I came up with.

So, can we setup a BO7 with you and Habit and put your theories to the test?


I feel like some people would rather watch me fail, and don't want anything new to happen, and just want everyone to be miserable, rather than learn something new. I would be happy if someone was able to come up with an early pool build that, after hashing out over a few games, we still can't possibly find a solution for. I'm not here trying to argue something, I've proven something, and I'm laying out the evidence here.

You can watch the replays. I don't think setting up a BO7 with habit, of him doing the exact builds he describes, would be productive at all. And I don't need to be the one playing it - he can play against a friend, or you can play against a friend yourself, doing such builds and such described counters, and see what works and what doesn't.

The bad Habit 7pool single spine drone all-in zvz build, as he describes, is extremely easy to beat.
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Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
December 16 2011 16:11 GMT
#38
i didnt read all of the post. my strat vs zerg is layed out to win against 14/14 not against hatch first. its harder to play vs hatch first as i stated plenty of times in my thread but im still confident i could pretty much win every single game against you playing hatch first or at least end up in a tie.

would be nice to link my thread tho : )

when i find some time ill read all the thread and give u my opinion on all ur counterreaction
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 16:17:56
December 16 2011 16:15 GMT
#39
Then you would be doing a completely different variation of early pool than the pools I described in this thread. I'd be more than happy to hash out some games with you - I'm on NA though and under the opinion your on EU? - but your build described in your thread - bringing every single drone, not leaving anything at home, single spine, 7 pool, etc - would never beat the counter I describe above.

You'd either do a completely different build... or I don't know... you'd lose ><

You can just do it with a friend, you don't have to play it with me. Or whatever.
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Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
December 16 2011 16:20 GMT
#40
Lol, last 2 posts are priceless.

I don't want to be obnoxious but I would want to see that BO7 ^^

Congratulation for your guide Belial, you put a lot of hard work into it and it shows.
geiko.813 (EU)
Chaosvuistje
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands2581 Posts
December 16 2011 16:24 GMT
#41
Thanks for the info, it'll make my 80% winrate against <8 pools higher .

I still have some issues with 14/14 against 9/10/11 pool occasionally, otherwise I feel like my early game is pretty much set in stone now!
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
December 16 2011 16:37 GMT
#42
just played him, sure he used some tips i posted in my thread like defensive drone stacking but the outcame was i killed all his lings before they could leave his base even tho i made some major mistakes (due to NA ping what is horrible for me) in the "egg" surrounding.

threw the game in the end because i had my overlord on team 2 and not my spine as i guessed, same as my keyboard turned off so even tho i had enough minerals to build more stuff it didnt accept my clicks so i actually lost the game.

but if i execute well with a proper ping i just dont see how to lose to this, neither do i see whats so pecial about the disicionmaking. alle he used is what i explained in my own thread.

Replay :

http://drop.sc/75183
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 16:47:16
December 16 2011 16:40 GMT
#43
I won.

You seem to think that it was luck or you threw the game, but even if the spine was all the way in my home base, I had enough 'head start' to have focused down your spine before you could do anything about it, and I could always make more extractors anyways if you had actually killed my pool and everything in my base.

It goes to show that all a drone all-inner can hope for is a stalemate. You threw away the stalemate, not the game, but going up the ramp and engaging unfavorably and allowing me to get inbetween your army and your spine, allowing me the chance to just focus fire it down.

I'd be happy to play more games. The only reason it was a stalemate was because you completely out-micro'd me, which was great on your part and poor play on my part, but regardless, even if you totally out play me, you only get a stalemate.

Nothing of what I did was in your thread.

edit again: what does your overlord or spine on a hotkey have to do with anything. Since drones are the same speed as... drones, it didn't matter whether the spine was in my base, hidden in the corner somewhere, or where it was when it was - you rushed up the ramp, giving me a chance to simply mineral walk past you and focus down your spine. 16 drones will kill the spine before your army would kill the 16 drones if I have a simple little headstart that was only just a 'base' long, like it was in that game, and is exactly what occurred.

My excuse, at least, makes sense - that you out-micro'd and totally out-juked my lings and surrounded them when they hatched. And that's another thing too, you didn't 'totally surround the eggs' - despite your best efforts, you didn't prevent any of the lings from getting hatched. You just juked and out-micro'd me and I stupidly ran my lings into your army when I should've been paying attention to them instead of the drones running to your base. My excuse makes sense, yours doesn't.

2-0!
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Geiko
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
France1939 Posts
December 16 2011 16:43 GMT
#44
Lol this thread is getting better by the minute

I think the obvious solution is to play out 4 or 5 more games to see who is right !
geiko.813 (EU)
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
December 16 2011 16:45 GMT
#45
On December 17 2011 01:40 Belial88 wrote:
Me and Bad_Habit just played. We have differing opinions on the results.

I was ...erm, quite distracted with boobs, and to be fair, he out-micro'd me like a boss. He surrounded my eggs quite well, and simply outmicro'd and juked and jived with his units to deny my lings from running out, and I actually didn't get a single ling out and I stupidly lost a few drones as well when I forgot about his morphing spine.

I ran to his base, and seeing him run out of my base with my 9 overlord, the one I use to scout for morphing hidden spines (he didnt finish my base off), I re-rooted my spine to be in range of his hatch and pool, and in range of the ramp. I knew he was going to camp until the creep went away so I couldn't fight with the spine, so I re-rooted so the spine would be out of range of his hatch.

He took the opportunity to try to engage me, but the spine proved too much, but he did take it as a chance to continue mining at home. That was a mistake on his part, and so, with the spine covering me, I killed his hatch quite quickly (it had only about 100 hp left and there was nothing he could do to prevent my drones from focusing it), and then his spine became revealed, and having the lead since he was by the mineral line, and I was by the ramp, I bumrushed his spine and killed it off.

I think this proves my solution is true. He did extremely well, and I'd have to say his pool was, beyond any other person I've played with, better executed than any pool I've ever come across, despite being one of the easiest variations (in my opinion). It's quite obvious why he got to GM with the build.

However, even when he completely out-micro'd me, it goes to show that the best a drone all-inner can hope for is a stalemate.

In short, I won. He seems to think that I'm wrong about this, but there was a reason why I won. It was a stalemate situation really, that he threw away by trying to attack up the ramp, or go back to mining, or whatever he was trying to do.


yeah thats what i said, best thing u can get is a "draw" under normal circumstances. i was not sure 100% if i could iwn the fight with my units since ur spine would deal damage again. but after killing some probes off, going back to minings to get out 2-3 additional drones and just send my spine back towards ur base, running out after u killed my mainbase and just defending my spine would be 100% win for me. i messed up and lost the game but that happens in like 1 of 100 games since im aware u cant do mistakes without losing when ur early pooling
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
December 16 2011 16:48 GMT
#46
On December 17 2011 01:40 Belial88 wrote:
I won.

You seem to think that it was luck or you threw the game, but even if the spine was all the way in my home base, I had enough 'head start' to have focused down your spine before you could do anything about it, and I could always make more extractors anyways if you had actually killed my pool and everything in my base.

It goes to show that all a drone all-inner can hope for is a stalemate. You threw away the stalemate, not the game, but going up the ramp and engaging unfavorably and allowing me to get inbetween your army and your spine, allowing me the chance to just focus fire it down.

I'd be happy to play more games. The only reason it was a stalemate was because you completely out-micro'd me, which was great on your part and poor play on my part, but regardless, even if you totally out play me, you only get a stalemate.

Nothing of what I did was in your thread.


all u did was in my thread, trying defensive drone stacking same as playing passive is exactly what i told on my thread how you should react.

and me myself, im sure noone on this planet can win me with 6-8 pool allin when im doing hatch first or 14/14.

but what ur saying that bronzies simply can win every single game they get early pooled is wrong^^

i would appreciate if you would add the replay to your post and some informations to it. if you dont do that it seems to me ur just ignorant and i wont take part in this discussion anymore^^
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 16 2011 16:51 GMT
#47
But that's exactly what you did. You chased after me. You do know that blue drones are the same speed as red drones right? Even if that spine was in my base, or hidden in a corner of the map, I would've gotten to it and your army would've been just as far away as they were in that case.

I was the one who made stupid mistakes by running my lings into your army. You're aware I could've just kept them inside my base forever and then brought my own drones back to my own home base and fought you there when you were forced to uproot - and if you didn't kill my hatch I would've just brought my own spine over from your base.
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 16 2011 16:55 GMT
#48
and me myself, im sure noone on this planet can win me with 6-8 pool allin when im doing hatch first or 14/14.


Great. How about we get you, to 6 pool yourself, and then we can post the replays here, as proof? That'd be genius!

The whole point of this thread is how hatch first > 6 pool. So i don't get, what you are getting at, if you claim yourself no one can beat you with a 6-8 pool when you go hatch first. Why did we even play in the first place then? Is that your attempt to try to prove I'm an idiot or something, so then you post a game where the positions are reversed and you hold it or something?

but what ur saying that bronzies simply can win every single game they get early pooled is wrong^^


Bronzies will definitely beat any other bronzie or silver that early pools them, and they can probably beat almost every game too. Maybe bronze is a little too far, I guess those are people who don't know the hotkeys yet....

i would appreciate if you would add the replay to your post and some informations to it. if you dont do that it seems to me ur just ignorant and i wont take part in this discussion anymore^^


I don't think it's fair to put up a replay where I screw up the micro, and the 7 pooler admittedly 'screws up' too. That wouldn't be an accurate representation. Besides, it wouldn't be legit to put up a replay that isn't on steppes of war.

Rematch on steppes of war? It's pretty clear that at worse, the game would've been a stalemate for the hatch firster, and at best and most commonly, if the hatch firster isn't dumb enough to run lings into an army like I did, he will win.

Don't make me bust out the ez. We can play more games, I think that would be best. For the community ^^
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Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 17:02:36
December 16 2011 16:58 GMT
#49
i had my spine in ur base, u had no chance to take a fight there even if you would have camped longer there, the game would just have lasted longer, since i would need to chase down ur lings (what would have happened)

well ur just acting weird in order to defend ur thread what might be a good read but not at all any kind of help. i dont want this to end in a flamewar im just out of the discussion. the replay is posted everyone can make his own mind up.

sure u won the game. i threw it away. i made a ton of mistakes in the end and if it wouldve been just one tiny mistake less i still would have won.

ur information, that u can help bronzies, to deal with my strat (what is the worst in your eyes, even tho i have like alot of more experience in this case) is just completely wrong.


i said in the first place, before playing. a "draw" is the best thing you could get and that is what would have happened if i would have stayed passive. i was sure im able to win the game so i went for it. made mistakes and lost it. but thats all that replay is about in the "lategame(lol)"

another thing i want to mention is that xelnaga and metalopolis are the only 2 maps u can use the spine to camp the choke so the map was favoring this and on every other map it wouldve been over anyways. ^^

over and out.
no sense to discuss with ppl lacking knowledge about the game
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 16 2011 16:58 GMT
#50
im going to bed now. ive been waiting for you to get back on tt.

i think the replay says it all.
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Flexx
Profile Joined August 2010
United States87 Posts
December 16 2011 17:03 GMT
#51
Very nice work Belial. Don't listen to the couple assholes that feel the need to shit on your VERY comprehensive guide to serious 6 pools.

Very few members of the community contribute ANYTHING, and seeing something as well thought out as this is refreshing. Thank you!
coL.hendralisk
Profile Joined September 2009
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
December 16 2011 17:04 GMT
#52
Oh I always do this on team games vs ling runbys, you're pretty bm though from what I've seen on the first replay :/
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 17:11:45
December 16 2011 17:06 GMT
#53
You realize that if you camped your spine in my base, I would've just uprooted my spine and brought it over (just like you tried to do to me?).

16 lings + 1 spine (that has to root) + 6-8 lings > 5 drones + 10 lings

I'm not the one that lost, and I'm not the one that won't rematch (and I'm offering on Steppes of War, you realize).

I made some pretty obvious errors that game, and granted, got outplayed/outmicro'd even. Your only excuse makes no sense - you moved your spine where it shouldn't be - but that doesn't matter, because you were trying to move it to your base anyways, and spines don't walk fast so it wasn't going to be far from where it got caught anyways, and regardless of where you put, any attempt of yours to run up the ramp means I just run past you and then focus your spine before you can stop me.

You didn't 'throw it away'. Your silly claim that 'oh you mixed up your spine hotkey' makes no sense - as soon as you engaged up the ramp you lost, because then I get enough of a lead ahead of your army, since we both have just drone armies essentially, that I focus your spine down with 16 drones.

I threw it away much more than you did, by losing all of my lings by running them straight into your army, when I should've just been paying attention ONLY to them.

Okay. If you want, I can edit the section about bronzies. How about it reads "And even bronzies can win, and be able to beat the pools of anyone below GM!" Would that be a good compromise? I think that's fair. You admit you're wrong, and that I'm right (who won?) - and I'll edit about the bronzies.

Sleep Tight, Don't let the Bed Bugs Bite. Belial.

Belial. The 6 pooler scarer-away-er. I suppose habit is forfeiting the next 6 games in the BO7. Please link my guide in your thread please, as the counter to your build.
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 17:22:05
December 16 2011 17:08 GMT
#54

Oh I always do this on team games vs ling runbys, you're pretty bm though from what I've seen on the first replay :/


Team games are completely different. This guide has no merit for team games. And the guy in the first game is someone who I have a history with on ladder. I'm sorry it so offends you that I was BM to someone on ladder. Yea, you are right, maybe I should just tear down this whole guide. I'm such a fucking idiot and bm guy, surely the guide is probably shit too.
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coL.hendralisk
Profile Joined September 2009
Zimbabwe1756 Posts
December 16 2011 17:12 GMT
#55
On December 17 2011 02:08 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +

Oh I always do this on team games vs ling runbys, you're pretty bm though from what I've seen on the first replay :/


Team games are completely different. This guide has no merit for team games. And the guy in the first game is someone who I have a history with on ladder. I'm sorry it so offends you that I was BM to someone on ladder. Yea, you are right, maybe I should just tear down this whole guide. I'm such a fucking idiot and bm guy, surely the guide is probably shit too (I bet we should vote for people based on how funny and good looking they are too ;/ ).



Well what I was trying to say your primary trick to defending vs lings and drones is to stack up on a mineral inbetween 2 isn't it? I don't see how being in a team game, that could not work vs lings in your mineral line?

Also you seem to be really sensitive and jump to conclusions, sorry if you took offense to my comment
ElPeque.fogata
Profile Joined May 2010
Uruguay462 Posts
December 16 2011 17:18 GMT
#56
On December 17 2011 01:11 Belial88 wrote:

Very interesting! I would love to chat with you online, or see a few replays of this, where you are against masters 6 poolers (or ones that competently execute the pool - I could do it to you as well. I've tried working out alternate solutions but I haven't been able to find any.

The solution you propose also seems to be less micro intensive than the one I came up with.


Sure, i'd gladly practice some early pool attack/defense with you.

Truth is, i don't hatch first very often, but i think the same principle would work, yet with less success ratio as of course the pool would come a little later and you lose some minerals in the cancel.

I have some reps, sure, as 1 in like 3 or 4 zergs i play go 6pool+spine+droneallin .
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-16 17:22:37
December 16 2011 17:19 GMT
#57
I guess. I don't know man, feel free to write a guide on how to defend every single variation of 6/7/8 pool as Zerg, with a partner who may or may not be all there, and being double pooled. Or whatever. I don't really care about team games, and it's beyond the scope of this guide and thread in discussing 6/7/8 pools. I am not going to say hatch first always beat 6/7/8 pools in team games. Team games aren't even balanced, and everyone knows team games are kind of ....ridiculous.

Also you seem to be really sensitive and jump to conclusions, sorry if you took offense to my comment


I worked pretty damn hard on this guide, and spend a lot of time on it. If all you have to say about my guide is something about team games - which makes absolutely no sense at all, sure, maybe some of these tricks will help you in teams games, no, i cant say it'll work, it doesnt even make sense, like double pools, what about your partner, etc - and a comment about BM on a replay that is admittedly kind of useless and a guy who is a BM spammer I've ran into ladder multiple times that you know nothing about, is really irritating.

Like, you are right, maybe I'm a little sensitive. But damn, I put a lot of effort into this guide. I literally spent many hours, over the course of many weeks, JUST working on this. And all you have to say, essentially, is that you are offended by the BM in one of the replays? Like, you aren't even going to say you like the guide, or that you have any criticism of the guide? You are going to talk about the BM? Why don't you critisize my goddamn choice of team color?!? Like wow, really, really... okay, breathe.

Thank you for your feedback, I will take it into consideration in regards to future guides.
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 16 2011 17:21 GMT
#58
Sure, i'd gladly practice some early pool attack/defense with you.


Ah, I understand. I will find my own practice partner then and try to work out a solution, that incorporates your idea. It sounds very interesting. Obviously it won't work against every type of pool, but I'll see if it works in any situation.
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 16 2011 17:39 GMT
#59
thank you bad habit.

you are inspiration to this guide. i like you ^^
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JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
December 16 2011 19:27 GMT
#60
Thank you Belial for this awesome guide. I have put a lot of thought into the defense of 6/7/8 pools using drones, but never put in more than 1-2 practice games to figure it out. Thanks for putting in so much time and effort to figure it out for us lazy folk. Definitely makes me feel better about going 15h every ZvZ on ladder (as I have been doing for a while).

One question -- Bad Habit brings up how 14/14 is his preferred strat to go against. I assume this is because the opponent is mining gas instead of minerals, has wasted a drone on an extractor, and this more than makes up for the earlier pool. Do you have any thoughts on this? Are you actually safer with 15h against 6/7/8p instead of 14g14p, because you have more minerals + more drones when the opponent arrives at your base?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-17 10:40:43
December 17 2011 10:38 GMT
#61
I appreciate the positive feedback so many have given, you are welcome.

I'm going to be editing a few things:

1. Adding a section about stalemating against drone all-ins. 1 game against bad habit isn't really representative of anything, but it did show, that when a GM executes the build, they can possibly out-micro you and kill all your lings when they hatch, so I will address that. That was definitely the best execution of the drone all-in I've ever seen, which further goes to show that Bad_habit got to GM by doing a build perfectly (even if it relies on the opponent's mistakes, he made sure to make none himself), and you can't simply just get to GM by 6 pooling - he's clearly a good player. I have to say that even Masters I've come across rarely do the 6 pool absolutely perfectly, and when I was asking for volunteers for the replay section I did, I had to say no to diamond and lower because, the diamonds and lower I did try it with, I had to spend literally over an hour teaching them what to do - with masters I had to really only play 2-3 games with to tell them what to do before they got it semi-right.

2. Going to talk about putting 2 spines down in the infinite ling section, since you'll have the money and lings aren't going to help you anyways, and that may be a bit easier, I suppose, for people who have trouble with the micro or execution. Should help with lower level players or those who haven't been able to practice much.

3. Emphasize importance of a spine against drone all-inners and how important that scouting drone is, and that you can lose by not sending a drone out.

May edit a few things too. I don't want to make it sound easier than it really is, I'm not here to give anyone the wrong impression. It's not always easy to beat a perfectly executed 6 pool, but generally if you are diamond on ladder, you won't run into that, ever, but still...
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Dougalis
Profile Joined June 2011
Great Britain59 Posts
December 17 2011 12:04 GMT
#62
thanks dude, the tip about using the slightly further back mineral patch to stack up on has really helped me i couldnt work out why sometimes my drone stackign qworked really well and other times failed miserably... well that is why !!! also the tip of pool placement has also helped me a lot , (only a gold noobie) in my league i see a lot of 6 pools + spines/drone allins . Thanks for taking the time to help us out
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 17 2011 12:45 GMT
#63
yea, no problem. I figured out about the pool thing from re-watching the kryix vs losira game the millionth time. I kept losing my pool before I could ever get a spine or ling out, and I'd never have any money at all when it popped because everytime he attacked my sim city pool I spent so much time running out, and then he'd back off. You'll notice that losira and nestea always tuck their pools in ZvZ.

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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-17 13:00:16
December 17 2011 12:57 GMT
#64
Updated a lot in regards to stalemating, and the drone all-in section.

I did a lot of work in the unit tester, and it's quite surprising how well 18 drones do against 10 lings + 6 drones + spine. Bad habit and I have been talking a bit, and I don't think he's aware how badly 10 lings + 6 drones does against 18 drones with the support of just 2-4 more units.

Also discussed stalemating. Now, if you totally make blunders and get outplayed (because that's the only way it would happen that you can't get at least 2 lings out), you can at least stalemate the game. However, the bad habit pooler can also force a stalemate, so I discuss that too.

I also added our replay - even though I didn't know about stalemating or what I was doing exactly (i mean I did sort of) in that game, I added it because I actually did the right response after making a bunch of mistakes (mistakes bad habit claims aren't mistakes, but whatever, he claims he can make sure no more than 2 lings can get out, but I prove that 2 lings is all you need, and the mistakes were very possible mistakes that could occur if the opponent is a GM doing the pool to you, so I think it's informative if I add it and discuss it, so i did).
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Yuffie
Profile Joined June 2010
132 Posts
December 17 2011 13:32 GMT
#65
hey Belial88 , can u give me a link or explain, why 10 pool is build order win against hatch first? shouldn't it be defendable with enough spines and maybe queens blocking a ramp or sth. ? i am sure u can figure out how to hold this 10 pools with hatch first?

cheers
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 17 2011 14:07 GMT
#66
It has more stuff, and still arrives before pool. With 6/7/8 pool there isn't enough stuff to outright kill the drones, even 10 lings lose to 18 drones. A 6/7/8 pool really should never engage, just really wait until 50 lings arrive, or force the situation where the opponent can't win (his pool and hatch are dead, or a spine is up). The pool pops in time that 18 drones beat 10 lings, and even if the 6/7/8 pooler is reinforcing, the hatch firster is going 18 drones, and reinforcing lings at the same rate.

Basically, a 6 pool and a 10 pool both arrive at the same time - before the pool pops, and the hatch firster is on ~18 drones. With 6 pool you can delay, and even fight head on, making it an extremely short window of time where the 6 pooler even has a superior force at all. With 10 pool, its just a ton of shit, and the hatch firster, even if he gets 6 lings out, it still won't be enough.

I've tried. If the 10 pooler just sends 6 lings, sure, you can hold. But if they bring 8 drones, like Nestea's 'anti-hatch first' build, or go 10 pool baneling, there is just absolutely nothing you can do.

It's not even hatch first, really. Just doing a pool later than, i dont know, 15 or 16, is what you are really losing for.
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Zarent
Profile Joined February 2011
109 Posts
December 17 2011 17:34 GMT
#67
Even as a masters protoss player, this was very helpful. Didn't know the particular part about stacking all your workers on the recessed mineral nodes, and that seems like it's actually very key to minimizing losses. While the rest of the guide isn't that applicable, that'll definitely make me feel a lot safer about greedy FFEing or Nexus-Firsting on various maps. Thanks!
Vandroy
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Sweden155 Posts
December 17 2011 18:02 GMT
#68
I remember aruging about early pools vs hatch first in some other thread with you =), anyway nice guide!
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
December 17 2011 18:27 GMT
#69
already thought that hatch first might beat 6pool when done well, really glad to see someone figuring the exact "how to". Another step to less all ins, more brainfights... I love it
Really nice guide!
zasta
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom99 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 02:19:12
December 18 2011 01:30 GMT
#70
Big big thank you Belial, been meaning to practise my defence vs 6pools for ages but didn't really know how to play it. This has made everything so much easier.

Edit: Believe it or not I got 6 pooled the very first game on the ladder after reading this. Easily held, then baneling countered and won. Thank you!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 02:27:58
December 18 2011 02:26 GMT
#71
Yea. I mean, I could've made the guide about literally 10 sentences long (the whole "TLDR without the why" section at the end of each part) but the why was actually kind of ... complex.

Even still, the best way to beat 6 pool is just practice with a friend. I don't think you'll be able to read this guide and suddenly be able to stop perfectly executed 6 pools (probably be okay against ladder pools up to masters though), but maybe with this guide you can just spend only 1-2 games practicing instead of hours.

Your welcome all!

and still:

Can a mod edit the title to make "[G]Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beat 6 Pool ZvZ". I didn't mean to hit post, I was hitting preview over and over, doing final edits

and why are the images broken on the replay files ><
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-18 12:24:02
December 18 2011 12:23 GMT
#72
On December 17 2011 21:57 Belial88 wrote:
Updated a lot in regards to stalemating, and the drone all-in section.

I did a lot of work in the unit tester, and it's quite surprising how well 18 drones do against 10 lings + 6 drones + spine. Bad habit and I have been talking a bit, and I don't think he's aware how badly 10 lings + 6 drones does against 18 drones with the support of just 2-4 more units.


i just want to throw in u can kite zerg / drone mixes pretty easy so u kill the lings first.
no comment to the rest since ur lacking basic knowledge

unit tester is shit in general

I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Wormster
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United Kingdom53 Posts
December 18 2011 12:40 GMT
#73
I lost ZvZ to a 6 pool and three spines yesterday and as I rage quit, this thread was here to comfort me. Hopefully now I won't have anymore stupid losses like that!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 18 2011 12:55 GMT
#74
On December 18 2011 21:23 Bad_Habit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 17 2011 21:57 Belial88 wrote:
Updated a lot in regards to stalemating, and the drone all-in section.

I did a lot of work in the unit tester, and it's quite surprising how well 18 drones do against 10 lings + 6 drones + spine. Bad habit and I have been talking a bit, and I don't think he's aware how badly 10 lings + 6 drones does against 18 drones with the support of just 2-4 more units.


i just want to throw in u can kite zerg / drone mixes pretty easy so u kill the lings first.
no comment to the rest since ur lacking basic knowledge

unit tester is shit in general



Thanks, that's very nice of you to add that. But you need to get a good surround with the drones, so unless you kite for like the entire map, it's not very useful information. I will not add it to the guide unless you can say this has a practical use, maybe even a replay or vod of this.

I went into a real game to test this 'unit tester is shit in general' theory of yours. It turns out, that in an actual real game, the numbers are actually much more favorable to the hatch-first player due to the existence of mineral patches, allowing mineral walking and surrounds and ramps and drone stacking.

Me thinks, this new information proves how favorable a position the hatch firster is over the 7pool drone all-inner. I don't think you were aware that it only takes 2 lings with the 18 drones to beat your army?


I lost ZvZ to a 6 pool and three spines yesterday and as I rage quit, this thread was here to comfort me. Hopefully now I won't have anymore stupid losses like that!


Someone did a 6 pool with 3 spines? You sure it wasn't an 8 pool? How exactly was it a 6 pool with 3 spines? That's.... impossible, without cutting something out of the equation (time, attack time, lings, pool timing). I'd be interested in knowing the exacts of the build or the replay. I don't honestly know how to beat a 6 pool with 3 spines, although I have a hard time believing such a 6 pool exists, but it's possible that such a build, even if it's not 6 pool but something else, may require a different response than one I have given. I'd hate for you to respond to such a build incorrectly, when it's possibly beatable. Or unbeatable, even that would be interesting.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
jabberwockzerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States294 Posts
December 18 2011 14:53 GMT
#75
MY NAME IS BORIS KUCHOCOKOFF. I AM IN GOLD LEAGUE, RANK 64 AND I WOULD LIKE YOUR STRATEGIES TO BEAT FAMOUS SIX POOL.


User was temp banned for this post.
I put the money in the jacket, and the jacket on the kangaroo, and now he's hopping away!
EndOfLineTv
Profile Joined February 2011
United States741 Posts
December 18 2011 15:25 GMT
#76
Great guide!
Heraklitus
Profile Joined September 2010
United States553 Posts
December 18 2011 16:32 GMT
#77
Thanks for such a deep and well-researched guide. I just spent 30 minutes going through the first variation. I could spend all day on this!
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:13:43
December 18 2011 22:00 GMT
#78
.
Spec
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Taiwan931 Posts
December 18 2011 22:45 GMT
#79
Thanks for the indepth research. Hopefully I'll never lose to a cheese again. QQ I guess we should find some partner to practice 6 pool with. Sounds like Zerg orgy.
Eye for an eye make the world go blind - Gandhi
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 19 2011 00:34 GMT
#80

Thanks for such a deep and well-researched guide. I just spent 30 minutes going through the first variation. I could spend all day on this!


Yea I was a little worried about that... I mean, I really appreciate it, but I hope to not turn people off because it's 15 pages long.

First sentence I say: 6 pool ezpz to beat.
Followed by 15 pages of how to beat 6 pool. lol.

At the end of each section on the variations, I have a very, very simple TLDR of what to do, that's just 2-3 sentences long.

It's extremely simple to beat each pool, it's just the whys, or all the responses, or fuck ups, that can change the course of the game.

I'm glad you enjoyed it, but the best thing you can do is just practice with a friend real quick on each variation! practice is best, and you won't beat 6 pool just reading this guide (well maybe).

I would love to see a better replay of you holding infinite lings, because that guy was just terrible (letting both extractors finish instead of cancelling, at one point he had ~14 lings with your spine still half way and could have just attacked and won.)


I think I explained it already, but it doesn't matter he let the extractors finish because by then, I had thrown down the spine.

Like I've already said, an overlord is never really necessary with a 6 pooler, because by then the rush is either held off, or you won the game already. In this case, he was held off. After cancelling, he would've had to make an overlord, and wait on some lings to pop, and they would have never gotten to my base before the spine was finished.

However, if any masters who know how to 6 pool, wants to infinite ling with me to recreate a better replay, I'd be all for it. Just PM me here on TL.

And no, he could not have attacked my spine with his 14 lings. With mineral walking and micro, 18 drones can hold off 14 lings. 18 drones beats... what is it, 13 lings, i believe, in a straight up a-move. With mineral walk micro, 14 lings can be easily beaten, or at least held off. I also could have just hit hold position around the spine to prevent him from sniping it. I also could have just made 2 spines to be extra safe, or even 3.

But again, if someone thinks they can do it better, please PM me to create a better quality replay.

Thanks for the indepth research. Hopefully I'll never lose to a cheese again. QQ I guess we should find some partner to practice 6 pool with. Sounds like Zerg orgy.


You're welcome. 6 pool is pretty quick to practice and hash out. You will still lose to 10 pool cheese though ><
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:13:47
December 19 2011 01:06 GMT
#81
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Keilah
Profile Joined May 2010
731 Posts
December 19 2011 02:27 GMT
#82
I'm not a zerg player so I don't already know this, but your comments make me curious...


It sounds like
10(ish)-pool >> hatch first
hatch first >> 6(ish)-pool

so
X >> 10(ish)-pool

and then further, Y >> X


So what are X and Y, and is ZvZ really this rock/paper/scissorsy?
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:13:51
December 19 2011 02:35 GMT
#83
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 19 2011 02:40 GMT
#84
^ There's obviously a time for it, but making a pool either after making a hatch (ie making it when you have 500 minerals) or after about, I'm not exactly sure, maybe around ~17 supply? is loss.

It's sort of rock/paper/scissory, in that Hatch first >14/14 and 14 pools > 10 Pool > Hatch First, so let me put it this way:

The Very Common Hatch First beats The Very Common 14/14 and 14 pools beats The Very Uncommon 10 Pool.

If you are playing a random opponent, like on ladder, then I believe statistically, Hatch First is the better choice of builds.

If you are playing in a tournament, or 'mind gaming' becomes a factor, like playing against a friend of yours whom you brag to all the time about your gosu hatch first build, then 14 pooling and 10 pooling become very viable builds.

I also think that 14 pool, gas ~16-18 into defensive banes before speed may be a better build than 14/14, because it's ahead of 14/14 and if the opponent went hatch first then you aren't as behind, but whatever.

At 3:41 there is 12 lings (2 in transit) in your base vs 15 drones, 1 spine just beginning and 2 sets of lings just beginning, I think there was a perfect opportunity here to win the game. He should have attacked well before your spine finished. Where the non-cancelled drones become critical is the fact that with a 6 pool you can win through trading and doing sufficent damage to their economy, it's not always an auto win if you hold it.


I think you are wrong, as 18 drones will beat 14 lings inside a mineral line. If he put as much effort as is required to take down a morphing spine inside a mineral line, he would've lost too many lings, and it would've been totally worth having to cancel the spine and restart it for killing that many lings.

I'd be happy to recreate the game if you think it's inadequate though. If a Masters Zerg is willing to recreate that replay, please PM me if you think you can do a better job.

As for your statements on going into a macro game with 6 pool... I should have at least 15 drones in the end. Even if some catastrophe happens, I'll have at least half of my drones, or 9 of them. 9 Drones is far and ahead of 6. Even if you don't think this is 'auto-win', this is close enough to 'ahead' and that's all we're trying to do here.

I'll PM you.


How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Lexiconman
Profile Joined June 2011
United States22 Posts
December 19 2011 04:41 GMT
#85
Did you play Half-Life AG?
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:13:57
December 19 2011 08:09 GMT
#86
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-19 08:14:48
December 19 2011 08:13 GMT
#87
lol? I didn't get annoyed at all.

And you are aware, as I said in the chat, that I was going to be doing different things out right? And we both talked about how, in all of those games, we both made some huge mistakes in engagements.

You are just a rude troll. I spend my time with you, I explained to you my preoccupations, and you also lead me to believe that we were testing things out, not that you didn't believe me.

You PM me under false pretenses, ask to do goofy things, and then afterwards say "LOL PROOF". Then, you get really angry apparently because I did hold when doing something different, when you fucked up your micro, and took it as offensive.

A waste of time, and the replays don't even mean anything when we were both making mistakes and trying out new things. Oh wait, I was, and you just said you were.

You never made 'any point' either. You pm'd me saying you had some new pools you wanted to test out on me, and you never said you didn't believe what I had said, so I never made a point to take the games seriously. And this is why I posted about trolls in the OP messaging me on bnet.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:14:05
December 19 2011 08:22 GMT
#88
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-19 08:31:16
December 19 2011 08:29 GMT
#89
I'm going to respond to this and try and leave it at that, because really we're both just going to get peeved at each other and most likely can't have much of a mature conversation about it any more.


What are you doing I don't even understand. You message me saying you are at work, then you message me later about how you are busy with your wife and cold dinner? I have no problem, you are the one that started getting angry and throwing out insults like 'douchebag' and 'rude'.

You essentially never 'held' the early pool, in all cases you were either dead, or severely behind. The last game, on XNC you're behind on drones and tech (no queen). This is essentially game ending. My entire point which I said before here.....


You mean the game where you totally fucked up the engagements so I stopped playing and started talking, even though I ended up with way more drones and money than you at the end? And I said we should re because you screwed up, and then you got angry because you took offense to me saying you screwed it up?

You don't make a queen with a 6 pool. It cuts too much into lings and production. I don't know how in the world you can have the money for a queen, you obviously aren't doing the build correctly if you can afford 100% ling production, an overlord, and a queen, on 5 drones.

.... is that you don't need to kill someone to win via early pool, you just need to cripple them. As soon as you engage and know you're not going to outright kill them you simply switch into drones and pull ahead. That's the downside of building spines - you're sacrificing econ (1 drone + 100 mins) to be safe from something that should be over by that point. Once more the whole frustrating part is you claiming the early pool ends when you hold it - it doesn't. You're right though, I did make mistakes, which resulted in me crippling you instead of killing you outright, but that should also tell you that when you're getting the best engagements that you could ever reasonably expect, and you're coming out crippled that you're not going to hold it.


I come out with at least 6 drones, and I'm ahead. That's all this guide is about. You end up way ahead because of the cancelled hatch giving you a lot of money, such as letting you get a spine to ensure safety, or having more overlords, or et cetera.

You are a huge troll. I already have much better replays in the replay section, of people who didn't fuck up the build like you did. I don't even know what build you were doing either, and you made it pretty clear you couldn't play well because you were playing on a phone or off a phone with no keyboard or something along those lines? I didn't take the games seriously either.

I've been quite nice this entire time. I play these games because you ask for help, and you say you have a new build, and we play, and you say that you are doing something new, so I don't take the games serouisly because you said yourself you that I should handicap because you don't have a keyboard, or something like that (at work, worried about the boss coming in? im not even sure what you were talking about, and I was busy too so it didnt matter anyways for me).

Then it's all LOL SEE YOU.

Oh wait. You aren't interested in learning anything, or even developing a solution to your 'new pools' even if it isn't in any of the described responses I gave. Instead, you are a just a troll, and just want to post to make yourself look cool.

Well great. Let's just take this thread down then, because Perseus here figured everything out!
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
December 19 2011 08:41 GMT
#90
I am not even a zerg player, but I just want to express my admiration to your knowledge and dedication, sir!

(Hopefully I won't get a warning for being nice...)
Best or nothing.
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:15:41
December 19 2011 09:24 GMT
#91
.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 19 2011 09:57 GMT
#92
Sure bro. God forbid you learn something and let's try to see what happens, instead come up with a bunch of bs about how you can't play correctly and I should try certain different things out and then claim it as veritable truth.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:15:47
December 19 2011 10:14 GMT
#93
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 19 2011 10:32 GMT
#94
Dude. You are the one who said you had a new type of pool and that I should try out something different against it. I also beat you in the last game, but I guess that doesn't count because, what, a queen is worth so much?

Whatever. Doesn't need to be a show for everyone. You know that what we were doing was goofing off - all the replays are already up in the replay section showing how to beat every pool. I already said infinite ling was one of the hardest 6 pools to beat, and we both said that we were just goofing off.

So I beat you in one of the replays, but I guess the other 3 is what you are referring to? And in those 3 games, the ones that I even said I screwed it up?

Yes. 6 pool beats a hatch first who screws up, and is given the impression that the games don't mean anything and were just testing. What kind of asshole are you that you take games like this as proof? You refuse to rematch the games, you just cherrypick a few games where you even told me that we were messing around, and that you couldn't play either.

You are just a troll dude. Go away. Yes, when you tell me that you want me to test out certain things, and that it's a different build than one I actually already proved how to beat, and that we shouldn't play seriously, yes, you will win. It's quite sad how desperate you are.
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barrykp
Profile Joined August 2010
Ireland174 Posts
December 19 2011 14:05 GMT
#95
Replays are like forensics man; they beat expert testimony!

Maybe you should have used zerg players who 6/7 pool as their normal strategy, instead of coaching random master zergs into trying it against you. Perhaps you got lulled into a false sense of security about how easy it is to beat these openings.

Losing 3/4 games because of 'mistakes' hardly inspires confidence: everyone makes mistakes - does that mean your guide is useless unless perfectly executed? Your opponent made mistakes too, but still won. It just begs more questions really
Lecture me some more on how to play please; I need help.
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
December 19 2011 21:42 GMT
#96
yeah belial will just get defensive when hes not right. just stop arguing with him theres no sense^^
noticed that myself
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-20 01:39:17
December 20 2011 01:37 GMT
#97
Losing 3/4 games because of 'mistakes' hardly inspires confidence: everyone makes mistakes - does that mean your guide is useless unless perfectly executed? Your opponent made mistakes too, but still won. It just begs more questions really


We had discussed that we would be trying different things out. If you watch the replays, you'll see that I actually do NOT do what I recommend in the guide, such as 'hold position' micro and using zerglings. Yes, you will lose 3/4 games if you don't follow the answers I give in this guide. Those replays are perfect examples of what not to do, and Perseus knows full well that I had said I would be testing out alternate responses, to see their effectiveness. You can watch the replays and see I don't do exactly what I say to do.

I also do say in the guide that such a 6 pool is the hardest to beat. You are perfectly welcome to watch the replays and see how I responded completely different as recommended in the guide. It does not mean my guide is useless if not perfectly executed, it means my guide only works if you actually follow it. I was given the impression that the games we would be playing would be to test out alternate stuff, and so that's what I did. I didn't take them seriously at all, and he told me that he wasn't taking them seriously at all either.

yeah belial will just get defensive when hes not right. just stop arguing with him theres no sense^^
noticed that myself


I'm not the one that is being defensive. I have a troll in here who said he would like to try out some alternate strategies, and so I helped him out, and it was made clear that neither of us were playing seriously, then he posts the games as 'proof'.

Then there's you, who I completely destroy in a game, but refuses to rematch because you know you are wrong.

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:15:51
December 20 2011 02:01 GMT
#98
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 20 2011 02:14 GMT
#99
I was given the impression that you could'nt play seriously because you were at work, the 'boss factor', and then you coming home where your wife was and you had to hurry up for your 'cold dinner'. You explained you had a different pool you wanted to try, and you asked if there other ways to hold against the 6 pool. I think one or two of the games I simply just screwed up, and one or two of the games, you just screwed up. Then, I made clear I wanted to try some different things out, and you said sure. You never said you had a problem with that, or that you didn't believe the guide, or that you thought I was wrong. You simply said Sure, you'd 6 pool and help me see how different responses would work.

I was never given the impression that these were serious games, and you never told me you had any intention to posting these on TL to make yourself look cool. You never said these games were serious.

Quite simply, you never said "Hey, I don't believe you, please show me a real hold". I even told you "Im going to try something different" - I'm quite sure you can see me say so in the replays you posted - and you never objected.

You said you didn't like the replay in a TL PM. You also said in-game that you were doing a different 6 pool. I also said that I was going to try out different responses. Pretty straightforward.

Hold position on spine? Quite frankly it's also really dumb, as I can then simply target down individual drones by clicking on them with even fewer losses before the spine comes up. You don't seem to understand that the aim isn't to kill you, it's to kill your drones and come out ahead. I don't mind at all if the spine comes up, because by that point I've already done what I want to achieve with the early pool.


Yes. Now you get it. Nowhere in my guide do I recommend hold position on the spine. I said I was going to try Hold Position micro in our games, I did, it failed miserably, and then you post the games as 'proof' that you're better.

Even if you kill half the drones, I still come out way ahead of you. You are just delusional.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:15:54
December 20 2011 03:09 GMT
#100
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Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
December 20 2011 04:14 GMT
#101
The image links you provided aren't working because no image exists at the link. The problem is on the gamereplays site (did not properly generate images) or your copy/pasting of where they put your generated image.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 20 2011 04:34 GMT
#102
Peleus, I stopped playing it because you screwed it up. I said so in game, meaning we need to do the game over. I wasn't aware that you were taking everything seriously and planning to act like this. I played with you to be nice, because you asked for help in trying new things, and to help you with your 6 pool. I don't think anyone is going to take you seriously, and the replays are already up of how to properly play that pool. Anyone is free to watch those replays to see what not to do. Yes, you lose going hatch first if you are chatting, not taking the game seriously, doing something other than the responses I outline in the guide, and all around screw it up or screw around.

The image links you provided aren't working because no image exists at the link. The problem is on the gamereplays site (did not properly generate images) or your copy/pasting of where they put your generated image.


I don't know if you are familiar with gamereplays.org, but they have like a little section where it says somthing like "Copy Embed Code" where you are supposed to copy/paste a line so that, when posted on forums, an image that links the replay pops up.

If you hit 'edit' on my post, you'll see the code. I'm not sure why no image link exists, people used to post from that replay site with that image/link all the time. I think it's something to do with TL because I don't see anyone using it anymore, or at least with the accompanying image.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
ExO_
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
United States2316 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-20 06:28:09
December 20 2011 06:10 GMT
#103
I just watched all 4 games that were linked, all 4 won by Peleus.

The 3 on steppes of war, while disproving that belial's build should hold on even steppes of war, I don't entirely put a lot of stock in because this distance is quite frankly way closer than it would be on any ladder map (that being said it does guarantee that you will scout in time to cancel the 15 hatch.)

The one on Xel Naga was the one I payed the most attention to. Right before the first engagement you had 17 drones, 18th popping out, while he had 6 lings in your base, 2 about 60%ish of the way there, 2 more in his base, and 2 50% done building.

At the very start, with some mineral walking, and slightly slow micro from your opponent, you manage to trap 2 lings and pick them off, and move back 2 drones that were losing health and about to die. Pretty good micro from you at the start

However, this bit of micro caused you to fight in a choke without stacking your drones up to trap for a few seconds, costing you lots of health and a drone. However you then mineral walk again and pick off a ling. So far, 3 lings lost, 1 drone lost. Lots of damaged drones, but none in the red, 5 in the orange.

Next you proceed to lose a drone and build a spine. The drones move out of the way to build this spine, sending another 1 to it's death. Still, only 3 drones lost thus far.

You get another decent surround, but right before you're about to pick off 2 lings in the red you retreat, allowing him to pick off a couple drones. This fight costs you 4 drones, 2 dying as you mineral walk. You then proceed to try to mineral walk and get surrounds, but can't find an angle to do so. All of the moving and not fighting eventually costs you too many drones.




Overall, micro went really well for you at the start, and then went okay through the rest of the fight. You had some major slip-ups, but your opponent seemed to have a few more. Your drones didn't make perfect surrounds after the very beginning, but your opponent didn't really walk into areas in which you could be expected to make perfect surrounds. All-in-all I think micro went just about as good as could be expected out of anyone except the TOP tier level of players, and this isn't including how good the ling micro could've been as well.


At the end of the game, despite not knowing what your opponent had, you tell him he isn't in a lead, and exaggeration your ling count by 2 and drone count by 1. Why? I did not understand any reasoning for this. After watching all of these games you came off sounding rude and hostile. Rather than trying to dissect what about the game(s) went wrong you assumed you were ahead or that the loss was purely b/c you couldn't execute your own build. The other guy didn't seem particularly rude to me, except in response to the aggression I perceived coming off of you.


Overall, I think you have a much better chance of this being a successful build if only you had more time. On maps like Tal Darim it appears a 7 pool wouldn't be as effective because even though you may lose drones, the lings will not have enough time to kill too many because the spine/ling production will get up. However, this build definitely looks to me to have big holes when spawning in any kind of close position. I think holding it would be more bad micro/execution on the part of your opponent and good play on your part, rather than as a result of the build.

Just my 2 cents, from an unbiased, uninvested perspective

Edit: Also, is belial a DS9 reference?
whoopingchow
Profile Joined June 2011
United States293 Posts
December 20 2011 06:25 GMT
#104
I just want to say...I think you were in Bronze league with me, and I kept checking your match history because you were doing way better than me. Glad to see you're wrecking Master's league as well as you were wrecking Bronze :D
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10327 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-20 06:42:16
December 20 2011 06:36 GMT
#105
On December 16 2011 19:20 C[h]ili wrote:
So, you are the reason I actually signed up, after a long time of passive reading. Be proud

Thanks alot for the profound guide on how to stop 6-pool. The amount of effort you have put into this guide is really impressive.

Just want to mention a few things. First, and in case I understand you correctly, the Belia's flower of death is already known and suggested by the master himself. See

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyCQ5mUBv9w&feature=player_embedded

One issue I see with your argument is that you go 15 hatch in the assumption a 6 pool is incoming. Still, while hatch first certainly is common, it has other drawbacks. So I wonder whether you suggestions are helpful in a situation where you go, say, 14 pool? I think your guide might benefit from elaborating on this a bit. There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home.

Also, against drone-allin you suggest building linges from your main hatch. Do you think it is feasible to surround your eggs perfectly and hence denying you reinforcing your drone army with lings?

So, forgive my noobish babble. Your guide gave a very interesting read and is important to all zerg buddies around.

For the swarm.


LOL i was wondering what master you were talking about haha. Then I'm like, why is habit still attacking into the drone stack? Then i found out it was to show that drone stacking is good. But unless I'm mistaken, Habit was trying to use that game as an example of how to counter his build? But if the opponent drone stacks you can just back off and defend your spine right?

Anyway Belial very very nice detailed guide .


On December 20 2011 13:34 Belial88 wrote:
Peleus, I stopped playing it because you screwed it up. I said so in game, meaning we need to do the game over. I wasn't aware that you were taking everything seriously and planning to act like this. I played with you to be nice, because you asked for help in trying new things, and to help you with your 6 pool. I don't think anyone is going to take you seriously, and the replays are already up of how to properly play that pool. Anyone is free to watch those replays to see what not to do. Yes, you lose going hatch first if you are chatting, not taking the game seriously, doing something other than the responses I outline in the guide, and all around screw it up or screw around.

Show nested quote +
The image links you provided aren't working because no image exists at the link. The problem is on the gamereplays site (did not properly generate images) or your copy/pasting of where they put your generated image.


I don't know if you are familiar with gamereplays.org, but they have like a little section where it says somthing like "Copy Embed Code" where you are supposed to copy/paste a line so that, when posted on forums, an image that links the replay pops up.

If you hit 'edit' on my post, you'll see the code. I'm not sure why no image link exists, people used to post from that replay site with that image/link all the time. I think it's something to do with TL because I don't see anyone using it anymore, or at least with the accompanying image.



Same here, it's strange. I think it might have been when TL switched to a wider width? or may be I'm way off. But anyways the images don't show up for me neither and it sort of sucks
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 20 2011 08:07 GMT
#106
I just want to say...I think you were in Bronze league with me, and I kept checking your match history because you were doing way better than me. Glad to see you're wrecking Master's league as well as you were wrecking Bronze :D


That would be a year ago. Unless you have phenomenal memory, I doubt that you were thinking of me. There are quite a few Belials out there, I'm the only one in Masters, lots of gold and bronze belials, and one is (or was at least) in GM.

But unless I'm mistaken, Habit was trying to use that game as an example of how to counter his build? But if the opponent drone stacks you can just back off and defend your spine right?


Yes, the 'counter' to my Floral Arrangement of Death is a spine. That's why it's the 'answer' against any pool without a spine.

Same here, it's strange. I think it might have been when TL switched to a wider width? or may be I'm way off. But anyways the images don't show up for me neither and it sort of sucks


Well, the links work. Maybe I'll change it so it's just a line of text, so it doesn't look ugly.

ExO_, those games weren't serious games. I win the last game, but I stopped playing it after he screwed up his hold anyways (you notice my drones just sit there for a second while I was typing and he took out about half of them in that process) and so he think he's ahead, when he wasn't, and I was trying to get him to remake the game so we could do it again more properly, and a replay where someone is screwing up their micro isn't a good replay. But, apparently, he thinks it's a good example.

None of those games were serious, and if I played seriously he simply would've just straight up lost. I've already proven how to hold 6 pool with infinite ling, and he kept doing goofy things like 7 pooling or making a queen, so I pretty much stopped playing. There isn't any 'top tier micro' that's necessary, you just right click on a mineral patch repeatedly. Multiple times in all of those games I either stopped moving because I started typing when something went wrong, or I did something completely wrong, like hitting hold position around my spine, to test it out.

You can check out the replays, I already have shown how to hold 6 pool infinite ling and I'll be happy to create more replays. Peleus told me he wanted to try different things out, and I believe in the chatlogs it's made clear I wasn't playing to show a serious hold, but rather to test things out. I think in the first game I also just straight up screwed up, which happens, I said it was the hardest 6 pool to deal with and you can lose if you screw it up. I did not even do what I said you're supposed to do in the guide.

I would appreciate if you just ignore Peleus, I'm pretty offended how someone asks to test things out and let's see how different things work, besides what I recommended, and then he shows it as proof that you can't hold a 6 pool. He's clearly a troll, or otherwise he'd rather work out the builds and see what happens, but instead he leaves with a "LOL SCRUB" and disconnects.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Munchkin
Profile Joined May 2011
Finland99 Posts
December 20 2011 11:27 GMT
#107
Why do you insist these drone stacking tricks etc. be named / renamed after you?

Other than that... great read.
Cheeser is as cheeser does.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 20 2011 11:33 GMT
#108
My Floral Arrangement of Death has been talked about before, but not on a large scale, and no one had claimed it.

The others, no one had come up with yet.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-25 11:05:38
December 25 2011 11:04 GMT
#109


This is interesting, someone did somewhat of my counter to the Bad Habit 7 pool drone all-in and the video was shown on When Cheese Fails.

There were a lot of huge blunders by both sides, and red should have won but charged his lings way ahead of the rest of his units at the end, but blue stupidly lost too many units and didn't cancel his hatch. Basic idea was right - base trade, eventually engage with superior forces.

This may be interesting to anyone who is lower level or struggling to pull off my 'counter'. I don't think anyone is struggling though with 6 pool after seeing this guide anymore right?

Has anyone beat a 6 pool on ladder, by the way, after reading this guide?
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Pandain
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States12989 Posts
December 30 2011 07:59 GMT
#110
just read it all.

Simply amazing. Thanks for all the hard work you put into this. Spent an hour looking at it and reviewing the replays, and I'll definitely incorporate it into my play.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 30 2011 18:08 GMT
#111
Thank you! This should be a small glimpse of more to come.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
GWBuffalo
Profile Joined January 2011
United States234 Posts
December 30 2011 20:04 GMT
#112
Are there guides on drone pairing? You mention the 37 second 6 pool. When I drone pair, even if they stay on a close patch for 2 cycles, they eventually decide disobey and go their own way. It's infuriating. I noticed on some maps it's worse than others. (iirc, Xel'Naga is easy to pair on, while I think Shakuras is one that is almost impossible.) I often get the sense that I am WASTING mining time because I keep having to force drones to the same stupid patch.

For example, there will be a drone on a close patch. I'll take another drone on a far patch and spam click on the close patch until it pairs with the first drone. The pair will remain in tact for a couple cycles, but then one of the stupid drones will just leave! Is there a trick to prevent this?

Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
December 30 2011 20:29 GMT
#113
I believe teamliquid players were the first to really start doing it, like, as a team. If you watch any replay of a TL player, you'll see how they do it.

So when a drone is actually mining, select another drone and furiously right click on that same mineral patch. It'll spaz out until it 'sticks', and then it'll be good to go.

Maybe try it out with T/P first, Zerg is harder to worker pair with, due to the nature of larva and such (makes more sense if you try it out). Yes, some mineral patches are difficult, like middle patches, such as the one on Shakuras. You have to not only pair it, but pair it in a way that when it sticks, it's in the same exact position as the other worker, or at least same distance to hatch. Hard to really explain, but you'll figure it out...

Just watch any of the replays, I worker pair in all of the games.

Yea, sometimes they will mine for a few cycles and then unstick. If you are really good, you can tell when a drone pair is going to unstick, but you really shouldn't worry about it if they unstick.

But if you have one drone mining, don't 'stick' another drone at a completely slanted angle. Ideally, you want it so they sort of spazz, and slowly drift over, until when they stop, they are perfectly positioned in the 'middle' of the patch. Like, say the mineral patches are north of your base. Your drone is west of the patches. If you click on a patch, it'll slide eastward. Click it slower, or faster (actually thats' too complicated, just click) in a way to coordinate it so it sticks at the perfect position.

I know it sounds sort of complicated... I'm just used to pairing by now. Don't stress it too hard if you don't know how to do it, just spend a few games practicing it against AI, then play. Don't screw up your BO doing it (i used to always forget 9 overlord when I first started pairing), but you'll see you can spend more and more time worker pairing because you know how it times, ie my 2nd worker pair means I need to make another drone as soon as it sticks, then I can pair 2 more until overlord.

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
GWBuffalo
Profile Joined January 2011
United States234 Posts
December 30 2011 21:55 GMT
#114
On December 31 2011 05:29 Belial88 wrote:

...

I know it sounds sort of complicated... I'm just used to pairing by now. Don't stress it too hard if you don't know how to do it, just spend a few games practicing it against AI, then play. Don't screw up your BO doing it (i used to always forget 9 overlord when I first started pairing), but you'll see you can spend more and more time worker pairing because you know how it times, ie my 2nd worker pair means I need to make another drone as soon as it sticks, then I can pair 2 more until overlord.



Awesome man. Thanks for the detailed response! :D


chaos~
Profile Joined October 2011
United States13 Posts
December 31 2011 00:58 GMT
#115
fantastic post, best in quite a while. thx op!
Wiwiweb
Profile Joined August 2010
France56 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-08 13:37:48
January 03 2012 21:26 GMT
#116
Great guide, and very detailed. I don't quite get the drama in the thread. Why argue about how a match does or doesn't count when you could just replay it.

2 questions for you :

1) XelNaga Caverns and Steppes of War both conveniently have a "recluse" mineral that can easily be used for your drone flower, however, many maps like Shattered Temple don't have these formations of minerals. How would you hold an Infinite Ling 6 pool on these maps?

2) In the end, and you said it yourself, hatch first still loses to 9/10/11 pool. If your guide really works out perfectly and 6 pool becomes useless against everything, then the default cheese will become 9 pool and nothing will have changed in the rock paper scissors state of ZvZ build orders.
Before reading this, my main way to hatch first safely was simply to send a scout at 9, before overlord, and, if on a big map like Taldarim, send another scout at 11-12 as the first scout find no bases on close positions, in order to check both other bases at the same time. Though you lose a little mining time versus someone who would blindly hatch first (risky play always pays off if lucky), it still allows you to see the base just before you put my hatch down, making it 100% safe.
Wouldn't doing this actually waste less minerals than having to cancel the hatch in case of cheese ?
Iksf
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom444 Posts
January 08 2012 11:27 GMT
#117
Great guide but honestly I just cannot get your drone flower to work on shattered temple, every other map iv tried it works no problem but on shattered the drones just do not stack anywhere near tight enough for this to be worthwhile, am I doing something wrong or does this not work on shattered.
EtherealDeath
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States8366 Posts
January 10 2012 07:42 GMT
#118
Oo didn't know you made a huge detailed thread for this :O. Was it before or after our curiously infuriating games ^.^?
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
January 22 2012 03:20 GMT
#119
Very informative!
Zorkmid
Profile Joined November 2008
4410 Posts
March 12 2012 13:23 GMT
#120
Great guide!

I'd always struggled with the micro associated with holding early pools as Zerg until a teammate gave me this tip:

Group all workers together, click on a mineral patch, hit A, the click on another mineral patch. Repeat until your lings are out.
frietjeman
Profile Joined February 2012
Netherlands26 Posts
March 12 2012 14:27 GMT
#121
Sorry this is a little off-topic but I don't see how 1 drone can beat 1 ling. They both deal 5 damage, but the ling has .7 attack speed where the drone has 1.5 which makes the ling's DPS more than twice that of a drone. A drone has 40 health and a ling has 35. Zerg regen can be left out of the picture cause they obviously both regen the same amount. Neither of them have armor and obviously no bonus damage so I don't understand this .


Appreciate the effort though you make great guides.
LazinCajun
Profile Joined July 2011
United States294 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-28 19:51:37
March 28 2012 19:51 GMT
#122
Is it just me or is it harder to hold a 6 pool with drones with 14/14? I can't seem to do it for the life of me (I usually don't drone scout).

Should I start drone scouting with 14/14 or is it a micro problem?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 28 2012 20:15 GMT
#123
^ Micro problem. Please post replay.

Sorry this is a little off-topic but I don't see how 1 drone can beat 1 ling. They both deal 5 damage, but the ling has .7 attack speed where the drone has 1.5 which makes the ling's DPS more than twice that of a drone. A drone has 40 health and a ling has 35. Zerg regen can be left out of the picture cause they obviously both regen the same amount. Neither of them have armor and obviously no bonus damage so I don't understand this


Test it if you don't believe me.

1) XelNaga Caverns and Steppes of War both conveniently have a "recluse" mineral that can easily be used for your drone flower, however, many maps like Shattered Temple don't have these formations of minerals. How would you hold an Infinite Ling 6 pool on these maps?


You don't need 3 mineral patches - just 2 is enough to create a corner pocket for you to do it in.

2) In the end, and you said it yourself, hatch first still loses to 9/10/11 pool. If your guide really works out perfectly and 6 pool becomes useless against everything, then the default cheese will become 9 pool and nothing will have changed in the rock paper scissors state of ZvZ build orders.


The difference is a 10 drone scout will see a 10 pool before you throw down 14 hatch, on a 2 player map.

Sending 2 drone scouts on a 4 player map is ridiculous. 10 poolers won't scout usually on 4 player maps so you'll usually be safer from it on 4 player maps.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
LazinCajun
Profile Joined July 2011
United States294 Posts
March 28 2012 20:16 GMT
#124
Sadly I accidentally deleted my last 6 pool rep while trying to fix something with sc2gears (not even sure how...) I'll keep working on it, thanks
Bluehawkz
Profile Joined February 2011
Denmark14 Posts
March 28 2012 22:40 GMT
#125
wow i read 90% of that and i dont even play zerg

amazing guide, its fantastic that people on TL take the time to write up stuff like that.

i never would have gotten good at starcraft without the guides on here
If you don't play you can't win
sunprince
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2258 Posts
March 28 2012 23:02 GMT
#126
On March 29 2012 05:15 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Sorry this is a little off-topic but I don't see how 1 drone can beat 1 ling. They both deal 5 damage, but the ling has .7 attack speed where the drone has 1.5 which makes the ling's DPS more than twice that of a drone. A drone has 40 health and a ling has 35. Zerg regen can be left out of the picture cause they obviously both regen the same amount. Neither of them have armor and obviously no bonus damage so I don't understand this


Test it if you don't believe me.


It's pretty bizarre though.

Is it just me, or are Zerglings a lot weaker than their stats would suggest? Really bad AI, or some sort of bug with their attack speed, etc?
MajorityofOne
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2506 Posts
March 28 2012 23:14 GMT
#127
Great guide, I'm going to play a bunch of customs and see if I can't get my early pool defense down pat using this. Thanks so much for the time and effort Belial.
zJayy962
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
1363 Posts
March 28 2012 23:15 GMT
#128
On March 29 2012 08:02 sunprince wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2012 05:15 Belial88 wrote:
Sorry this is a little off-topic but I don't see how 1 drone can beat 1 ling. They both deal 5 damage, but the ling has .7 attack speed where the drone has 1.5 which makes the ling's DPS more than twice that of a drone. A drone has 40 health and a ling has 35. Zerg regen can be left out of the picture cause they obviously both regen the same amount. Neither of them have armor and obviously no bonus damage so I don't understand this


Test it if you don't believe me.


It's pretty bizarre though.

Is it just me, or are Zerglings a lot weaker than their stats would suggest? Really bad AI, or some sort of bug with their attack speed, etc?


One drone doesn't kill a zergling.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 29 2012 03:43 GMT
#129
Is it just me, or are Zerglings a lot weaker than their stats would suggest? Really bad AI, or some sort of bug with their attack speed, etc?


You really need zergling speed to make zerglings more effective. That way they get first hit off.


wow i read 90% of that and i dont even play zerg


You can definitely apply the guide if you are different race. The only difference is that you have the option to wall off, and spines are never an issue. Things like Belial's Drone Flower and Bosswalk can work for other races. Defensive worker stacking really is useful for other races against 6 pool.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 29 2012 04:17 GMT
#130
1 ling beats 1 drone, sorry about that. I think that was a mistake (thats why I said "duh", because common sense is 1 ling beats 1 drone, but I guess I mistyped it).
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
[D]reAm
Profile Joined April 2012
3 Posts
April 07 2012 21:34 GMT
#131
hm nice guide

finally a useful post !

ty
ipwntbarney
Profile Joined September 2011
United States141 Posts
April 07 2012 22:15 GMT
#132
Unrelated, but Belial, since you say that ZvZ is your favorite match-up, you should really write a guide on it. ZvZ is just sooooooo gay.
Mahtasooma
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany475 Posts
April 07 2012 23:11 GMT
#133
could you maybe upload a video of how exactly the drone micro works? so you put 4 on the spine and the rest do the BossWalk? please show in a vid.. thanks.
http://twitch.tv/mahtasooma
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 08 2012 09:33 GMT
#134
There are replays and vod examples in the replay section.

As for the bosswalk part.... i don't even know if that is necessary anymore. Just a-move all your drones when initial lings arrive and grab 4 of the drones and shift-right click spam on the morphing spine (spine = later pool or less lings). I think bosswalk may be more useful when it's 2 spines.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
roym899
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany426 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-08 12:49:26
April 08 2012 12:49 GMT
#135
Hey,
just lost to a strange All-In I've never played before against and lost. It's a 9 Pool and he pulled like 6 drones or so but still had 5 Drones at Home. I really didn't knew what to do. He just attacked the worker line, and I tried to get a surround but as he just had more units then me he easily killed me.
http://drop.sc/155615

What could I've done here? I don't really know which of your guidelines apply to this situation.

Edit: Diamond vs Diamond
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 08 2012 15:02 GMT
#136
On April 08 2012 21:49 roym899 wrote:
Hey,
just lost to a strange All-In I've never played before against and lost. It's a 9 Pool and he pulled like 6 drones or so but still had 5 Drones at Home. I really didn't knew what to do. He just attacked the worker line, and I tried to get a surround but as he just had more units then me he easily killed me.
http://drop.sc/155615

What could I've done here? I don't really know which of your guidelines apply to this situation.

Edit: Diamond vs Diamond


As I stated in the OP, 9/10/11 pool is a straight up build order loss. 6/7/8 pools can be beaten because you are making lots of units (drones), but 9/10/11 pool have an econ behind it to hit you with something too hard.

I think I specifically mentioned Nestea's 10 pool build - 10 pool, drone up to 12 with extractor tricking, pull 8/12 drones and rally lings. It's a build order loss...

I recommend that you go 10 drone scout on 2 player maps, and on 4 player maps drone scout normally. A 10 drone scout on 2 player maps, where 9/10/11 pools are often popular, will see if they are early pooling before you throw down the 14 hatch.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
roym899
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany426 Posts
April 08 2012 18:16 GMT
#137
On April 09 2012 00:02 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 08 2012 21:49 roym899 wrote:
Hey,
just lost to a strange All-In I've never played before against and lost. It's a 9 Pool and he pulled like 6 drones or so but still had 5 Drones at Home. I really didn't knew what to do. He just attacked the worker line, and I tried to get a surround but as he just had more units then me he easily killed me.
http://drop.sc/155615

What could I've done here? I don't really know which of your guidelines apply to this situation.

Edit: Diamond vs Diamond


As I stated in the OP, 9/10/11 pool is a straight up build order loss. 6/7/8 pools can be beaten because you are making lots of units (drones), but 9/10/11 pool have an econ behind it to hit you with something too hard.

I think I specifically mentioned Nestea's 10 pool build - 10 pool, drone up to 12 with extractor tricking, pull 8/12 drones and rally lings. It's a build order loss...

I recommend that you go 10 drone scout on 2 player maps, and on 4 player maps drone scout normally. A 10 drone scout on 2 player maps, where 9/10/11 pools are often popular, will see if they are early pooling before you throw down the 14 hatch.
I did a 14/14.
Zythus
Profile Joined December 2011
Poland184 Posts
April 08 2012 18:22 GMT
#138
Today held 6 pool with 14gas/14pool. When I had 15 drones and overlord which gave me 26 supply, I just made only zerglings (drones were still mining). Used drone stack trick until my lings came out (he had 5 or 6 lings and all of his drones), killed his hatchery, spawning pool, and even got back to kill his spine crawler which was in my main (all on antiga shipyard, his position @11, my @2)
roym899
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany426 Posts
April 08 2012 19:36 GMT
#139
It wasn't about a 6-pool... guys. it's nice if you answer, but it might be better if you read the question properly before...
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-09 08:47:32
April 09 2012 05:32 GMT
#140
^ Okay. Well, you never stated you went 14/14, so I don't think it's unfair that everyone assumed you went hatch first. You should be able to easily hold a 9/10/11 pool with pool first. So after watching your replay, this is what I noticed:

1. You make everything late. Maybe it's you having 20 apm, but you never made that first drone for 4 seconds. You need to make the drone first, then start mining with initial workers. And don't be splitting your drones. It's obvoiusly hurting you more than helping. You need to just make a worker first, then select all workers and right click a mineral patch.

Things like setting rally points and hotkeys... you have until like, 20 supply before a unit pops out and that matters. You don't need to set them right away. Every drone you make from 6-14 was just late.

So already you are kind of screwed. You should have started your pool basically right before his finished, but instead, it starts when his completes (he forgot his first 2 drones too, but he was banking money for his pool anyways so it didn't affect his pool timing).

So right away you are having trouble. Just in the first 15 supply, you aren't making workers on time. So you are behind when you shouldn't be.

2. Why are you sending a drone scout on 10? You are doing the 'safest' build zerg can possibly do - that is, you won't autolose to anything. You don't need to drone scout. But some people drone scout when going 14/14 to see if they should expand or pressure hatch first... i guess. I'm not sure. I know some pros drone scout.

Either way, you are drone scouting WAY too early. You don't need to scout on 10. You only need to drone scout on 10 if you are going hatch first, and worried about 10 pools. Not if you are going 14 pool. Your drone scout did nothing to change your build order, and you would've known it was a 10 pool by a 14 drone scout or overlord. I mean, the point of hatch first 10 scout is to NOT plant the hatch first when seeing an early pool. So I don't know why you are drone scouting.

3. You are late on your pool by 50 minerals. You also didn't pre-emptively move the drone in location.

4. You droned to 16, and no overlord at 15. Now you can't get 6 lings out to defend, can't get the queen out. You also leave a drone in his base, I assume to make a spine, but you should not be doing that.... you should be worried about defending. Once you defend, you will be way ahead with speed, map control, faster expo...

5. You continue mining gas after 100 gas. If you saw he went early pool, and even further you saw he pulled all his drones, you should have pulled off gas IMMEDIATELY, if not cancel your geyser if you could. Speed in 110 seconds isn't going to help at all.

6. And then you get supply blocked at 18/18. You were aware you went to 16/18 when when going 14/14 you are supposed to make an overlord at 15 right? You saw 6 lings coming after you, werent you aware that when you pool popped, you would only be able to make 4 because you would be supply blocked?

7. Why aren't you making spines in your mineral line? That would have helped. You SAW he pulled drones, you should have made a spine in your mineral line.

8. What are you even doing? YOu just mineral walk back and forward to let him hit you. You mineral walk to get away from someone. Not to go toward him... If he continues chasing your mineral walk, you mineral walk back and trap him. If he doesnt go all the way into the mineral line, don't mineral walk back toward him because you wont get a surround.

You saw he didn't make a spine. You should have done Belial's Floral Arrangement of Death. You only need to 'bosswalk' when there are 2 spines. If there is 1 spine, just a-move, and select 4 drones to attack the morphing spine. In this case, where there is no spines, you should have done a defensive drone stacking.

Also, you could have just run away, since there was no spine. Then rally lings together with drones, and push back. You had enough for a queen too, although queens are bad, but your decision making was really off...

In short, you lose because of:

1. Your macro was horrible. Late on everything, late on your initial drone, late on your overlord, no overlord on 15, supply blocked on 18 even though you knew you needed lings to hold 10 pool, no pulling off gas even when you saw he was all-inning. You should have had lings in time to meet his lings, and you should have popped 6 lings with 2 spines instead of just 4 lings, supply blocked, with 300+ minerals banked.

2. Decision making. You could have held 3 different ways:
- 2 spines in mineral line
- macro'ing better...
- running away, then rejoining forces with lings.

3. Your opponent completely out-micro'd you. It's obvious that, well, you were outplayed. He had better mineral walking micro, he kept up production better than you did, he was more crisp on his timings (which is... funny), and he engaged better than you. He deserved the win. He just played much better.

TLDR

You need to work on your macro.

Failing that, you need better decision making, which you can get just by reading my guide. The guide also will teach you about micro, which, failing decision making, also could have won you the game.

Macro better.
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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 09 2012 08:56 GMT
#141
holy shit this guide is way too long. i need to redo it or something.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
TheAngryZergling
Profile Joined January 2011
United States387 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-25 15:24:00
April 25 2012 15:23 GMT
#142
On April 09 2012 17:56 Belial88 wrote:
holy shit this guide is way too long. i need to redo it or something.


I disagree. I appreciate its nitty gritty details and occasional rewordings to drive home important points. If you wish to rework it, perhaps make a new slimmed down version in its own thread.
Everything in life is most clearly explained through a Starcraft analogy.
Cute_Fluff
Profile Joined March 2011
Israel14 Posts
April 25 2012 17:25 GMT
#143
I LOVE YOU !!!! this is such a good guide and for the following reasons (my reasons ofc..)
1. its bluntly stupid - as in u can be a total chobo and GET IT (uhm... from experience...) :D
2. it changed my thinking of ZvZ - thought it was a coin-flip - ITS NOT! :D
3. 6-pool doesnt scare me that much anymore, and i think im gonna make ZvZ my be(a)st matchup :D

and last but not least - its just heart-warming to c some1 of hi-caliber taking the time (ALOT of time) to put this comprehensive guide - so thanks again :D

gl hf gg wp
si vis pacem - para bellum
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 25 2012 21:49 GMT
#144
I'm glad you two like the guide as it is.

For the rework, I would probably spoiler the old guide, while putting the new slimmer version on the front, by editing the OP.

Cute_fluff,

1. The guide is probably a little misleading on that first part. Some lower level players (bronze, silver, etc) don't really have the macro down for the first 2 inutes of the game (how do you get suly blocked at 18 or make your first 15 drones late, I have no idea). It is true that with this guide you will beat someone of similar skill, but I think now that defending vs attacking 6pool is based largely on macro (I've noticied every 6 pool loss seems to be macro based losses rather than anything else, at the lower levels). But anyone should be able to beat a comparable opponent with that knowledge in mind.

2.There's still a small coinflip - hatch first will autolose to a 10pooler who knows what they are doing (oh its so obnoxious when artosis says you can defend 10 pool with hacth first in the gsl as recently as this week). But you can mitigate this by 10 drone scouting on 2 player maps (something pro players never do, but hey, it works, and 90% of gsl zvz is wins and losses based on someone 10 pooling in the series, like recently with july, leenock, idra, and drg).

Also a sort of philoaopphy behind this guide is the idea that 6 pool being a bo loss to anything, 6 ool should never been seen again in zvz. But 10 pool is still scary. Although I don't think people below masters, maybe diamond, know how to 10 pool a hatch firster and autowin.

3. 6 pool doesn't scare me either, but 10 pool does.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
April 26 2012 04:30 GMT
#145
Do I always build a spine when he's not bringing all drones?
hundred thousand krouner
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 26 2012 08:14 GMT
#146
^ You have to be a little more specific. If you are talking about the infinite streaming ling style, I would very much recommend it...

You should also be making tons of lings, even pooling 3 larva for when the pool pops, which will go a long way to help, but if he's just continuing to stream lings with the same rate of production as you are, you will really need that spine to end the pressure. It will go a long way to allowing you to drone and tech up too, as if he does a 6 pool variation where he keeps mining, and does enough damage and a quick queen, a spine will go a long way to allowing you to drone up instead of making lings while you tech up so you don't need a ton of units to defend (banes, roaches, whatever).
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Omnidroid
Profile Joined November 2011
New Zealand214 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-28 08:19:43
April 28 2012 08:18 GMT
#147
The 6 pools I usually deal with almost always plants a spine or two. What I've been doing so far is immediately placing a spine in range of his spine, and getting the zerglings second. Then its the drone - zergling dance until I overwhelm his units and spines. Is getting the spine first a good idea? When would it not be as good?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 28 2012 09:20 GMT
#148
^ Are you going hatch first or pool first/14-14?

If you are going pool or gas first, you can sometimes get a spine. There are actually more ways to hold early pool than what I described (although not too many, since the vast majority of 6 poolers, especially below higher masters, simply make the wrong decisions on how to attack and base trade, not to mention micro poorly, and sometimes even macro poorly, which often means you can respond incorrectly sometimes and get away with it, or do certain responses that otherwise shouldn't work).

What my guide describes is assuming perfect play and decision making from the opponent (like not attacking into a Belial's Defensive Drone Flower), and that you went hatch first on a tiny map and don't have much time (either your pool is late due to going hatch first, or your pool won't be alive for long due to needing to run away). If you make your pool earlier than going hatch first, or if your opponent is a moron, or if you can actually micro well, or if you want to be greedy (you can actually keep the hatch against certain pool variations), there are a lot more ways to hold.

My guide just tells you ways you are guaranteed to come out ahead. There are other ways to get ahead, that can be viable, like if you go pool first or the opponent doesn't play perfectly or if you gamble (like trying to hide a defensive spine on the edge of your creep and hoping he doesn't see it, or rather, micro'ing your units away from it so he never sees it).

I mention a little bit of when making a spine can be an option, or how to recover if you can't focus down his spine quick enough to kill it before it pops (I believe in the section about Ling+Spine, in a sub-section). But I don't really think what you are doing is a good idea - it may work, of course, but why chance it? As soon as his initial force arrives, you should be able to have enough drones to have map control (weird concept to discuss at the 3:20 mark, but basically who has the stronger army when factoring in speed), and focus his spine down with 4 of the drones. By the time he regains map control, or has reinforcement lings arrive, you should have either forced a cancel on his spine, or have your pool up.

I don't think getting a spine is generally a good idea because you already waited for one building to pop - waiting for another building to pop just means you are waiting around for so long that you die. Spines really do take forever to build, but lings don't take that long, so you want to get lings over spines. The only time you will want a defensive spine is against early pools that DONT make a spine (you can protect it with drone drilling and hold position - what a spine does in early pool scenarios, is force you to be unable to be in a certain area, like by your mineral line, or to engage lings attacking your hatch because they are being covered by a spine), and when you fuck up against focusing down his spine but have done enough damage to his lings but without your own spine you can't engage the lings/spine without being fucked up by the spine/lings.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Chutoro
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand95 Posts
April 28 2012 10:51 GMT
#149
Thanks for this guide - it has helped me a lot.

Just tried the base trade+spine approach against a 6 pool drone all-in, and it worked great.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 28 2012 13:55 GMT
#150
^ Glad it helped you! I think your the first person that's ever said that they actually used the advice in the guide, in an actual game.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Z3ratoss
Profile Joined April 2012
Germany3 Posts
April 28 2012 22:01 GMT
#151
Very good in-depth guide
#1 read #2 think #3 post
Chutoro
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand95 Posts
April 28 2012 23:51 GMT
#152
On April 28 2012 22:55 Belial88 wrote:
^ Glad it helped you! I think your the first person that's ever said that they actually used the advice in the guide, in an actual game.


I actually use the advice from lots of guides here. Perhaps I should post that more often so that guide authors know their efforts are appreciated.

Regarding your guide structure, I agree with you that it could use some improvement, but I also agree with the above poster that it would be good to leave the details in if possible. What I would suggest is to switch the order around and lead with a summary of your strategy for each variation which is simple enough to commit to memory (basically your "in short" section, maybe expanded just a little) and include the details afterward, possibly in a spoilered section. The summary is generally the part I am trying to remember and execute on during an actual game, since I'm not going to commit the whole guide to memory, and it's too much to think about for quick decision making anyway. If things don't go quite how I hoped, or the recommended strategy didn't achieve the desired results, that's when I want to see the details to find out whether I executed it correctly.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
April 29 2012 02:38 GMT
#153
Well your suppsed to read the whole thing ^^

Ill work on it once I get reps for my zvp guide. Understanding decision making is actually really important, I gotta say I've never seen anyone below masters execute a 6 pool correctly (not well, but correctly). Even in masters I run into ppeople alll the time who let my drone make a spine in their base when they their drones min, or will attack into a belials drone flower of death even when they have a spine morphing in range. Really you shouuld beat most laddeer scrubs by just defensive drone stacking and they attack it.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Beardfish
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
United States525 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-29 03:51:58
April 29 2012 03:50 GMT
#154
If anyone in this thread is interested in practicing defending 6/7/8 all-ins add me on bnet: Beardfish.113 (NA, Diamond Z). We can take turns attacking/defending.

EDIT: Oh, and how can I forget. Thank you Belial88 for the awesome guide.
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
May 01 2012 10:44 GMT
#155
Hello there ! This is my first post here !

I read the guide, then trained with a mate.

6-7 pools seems ok, beeting it when there are 1 or 2 spines is hard but ok.
But with 8 pool, what he did to me was putting 3 spines down in my base, by letting some drones at mining.

Like this, it looked so imba... Do you think that we cant defend against an early pool when the guy is putting 3 spines down ? Or do you have any tips ?

Thanks again for your useful guide !
Zygomorphium
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada21 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-02 00:05:40
May 02 2012 00:05 GMT
#156
On April 09 2012 17:56 Belial88 wrote:
holy shit this guide is way too long. i need to redo it or something.


No. At worst, make a condensed version of it somewhere else or nested in spoilers somewhere. I love the details. Hell, I love the entire guide. It's the way I would write something. I'm the kind of person who can go on triple tangents to try to explain something in stupid detail. I'm sure I've ended up talking about ZvZ when someone asked me what I thought of the 4-gate vs 4-gate thing when that was the only way to play PvP.

The only criticism I have for the guide is probably what you saw too, where it's kind of difficult to pick out the basic stuff from all the details. Like, I understand all the why's but don't remember the specific what's anymore and I am going to write down the what's in a .txt or on a piece of paper to help remind myself.

Actually, don't redo it. Make a ZvT guide first lolol. I am completely lost in that matchup.


Back on topic. I tried a 6-pool against an AI with worker pairing and got 0:42 so I'll stop there (I should hit diamond any minute and I'll still be top-8 so I have better things to worry about). I have a couple of questions about the pairings if you don't mind (or someone else).

1: Is there a smarter way to set up the pairs than spamming right click on the mineral field until the other drone leaves? It seems to me that we're wasting one gathering cycle to set this up.

2: Am I doing something wrong if the pairs break up? When I was doing this 6-pool I noticed a while later that one drone had left the pair since the return time was probably a few frames shorter than the gather time. Is this just something I have to deal with?

Thanks
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
May 03 2012 03:11 GMT
#157

Hello there ! This is my first post here !

I read the guide, then trained with a mate.

6-7 pools seems ok, beeting it when there are 1 or 2 spines is hard but ok.
But with 8 pool, what he did to me was putting 3 spines down in my base, by letting some drones at mining.

Like this, it looked so imba... Do you think that we cant defend against an early pool when the guy is putting 3 spines down ? Or do you have any tips ?

Thanks again for your useful guide !


I'm having a little trouble understanding your post. Just post the rep and I'll see what I can make of it.

If the guy isn't mining with drones at home though, you should be able to just base trade.

1: Is there a smarter way to set up the pairs than spamming right click on the mineral field until the other drone leaves? It seems to me that we're wasting one gathering cycle to set this up.


I'm saying when you are ready, you won't have to spam right click

If you watch T/P players pair, they generally dont' spam click, they'll just set the rally point to a mineral patch and they will have a pairing set up then and there. It's a lot easier to do this with T/P though, because they queue up workers (whereas with Zerg, you MUST morph that larva the second it pops and you have 50 minerals, so if you hit 50 minerals and a larva is available, you can't just keep trying to force that pair, you have to stop and morph that larva, and then that drone bounces off, which makes pairing with Z a lot harder than the other 2 races).

But if you are good, you can just send the drone to a mineral patch at the perfect timing and you'll just 'know' that it'll pair correctly.

Yea, you are killing a mineral cycle with pairing sometimes. You just have to get good at knowing how to pair and when, to make sure that the drone you are working with starts mining asap. If you don't pair well, you can actually hurt yourself more than help (like if the pairs you set up don't stick - for example, on maps like Shakuras, with a really close by mineral patch, like that middle one, it's really fucking hard to pair it - my advice for that map, is at the start, split 3/3 or whatever you do, and then make your first pair, that pair, because the 1st drone mining on it is coming at an angle, so you can set the 1st paired drone to come at an angle too, because you are grabbing the drone that is trying to mine at the patch right next to it).


2: Am I doing something wrong if the pairs break up? When I was doing this 6-pool I noticed a while later that one drone had left the pair since the return time was probably a few frames shorter than the gather time. Is this just something I have to deal with?


I wouldn't say 'wrong', but you aren't doing it perfectly. It's not enough just to have a drone start mining on a field, you want both drones approaching at the same angle. So for example, a pairing won't stick if you have a drone mining, and then you introduce a 2nd drone by having it mine from behind the mineral patch. This is because it will return at an off timing.

To make sure a pairing sticks, you need the drone to come from an equally distanced part of the mineral patch. So taking that middle patch on shakuras as an example again, it's good to pair on that patch first thing. This is because when the drone first mines on it initially, it will go to it at a slight angle, and then you grab another drone, and make it mine from the same 80* angle from the other side of the patch.

Another example is the far patch (either one) on metalopolis. You have a drone mining on it. If you just rally a drone to that patch, it will actually go far outside of it, and mine it at like a 45* angle, and you know it won't stick because the drone already mining will just go straight to it from the hatch. So when pairing on that mineral field, I actually move command the drone so that it will start mining from it at about a 100* angle, or just slightly 'out' of the mineral patch from straight back and forth to the hatch.

It takes time to sort of figure this all out. Just play more, you'll get the feel for different patches on different maps. Each map pairs differently (for example, on Korhal, a 3/3 split will often result in a pairing right away on one of the inner, close patches, so make sure the first drone you grab for pairing after the drones make their first mineral return, a drone that ISN'T one of those 2 paired drones, or you will either ruin that first, free pairing, or be pairing a drone that was already paired, on Cloud Kingdom, make sure to grab a drone that isn't already mining from one of the closest 4 patches, on shakuras, make sure the first drone you grab to pair after the first return, is a drone mining one of the patches from the patch next to the middle patch, and then set it to mine that middle patch with the drone that is already mining on it, because it's the hardest pair to make, and the best pair to make, and most easily done if you do it first thing, on metalopolis, set the drone that is pairing on the mineral field closest to the ramp, to start mining slightly outward so the pair is set up perfectly, on metropolis, be careful because 2 of the optimal patches are right next to eachother, so be careful not to screw up a pair you already made by clicking the wrong patch).
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Chutoro
Profile Joined January 2011
New Zealand95 Posts
May 03 2012 07:57 GMT
#158
On April 29 2012 11:38 Belial88 wrote:
Well your suppsed to read the whole thing ^^

Ill work on it once I get reps for my zvp guide. Understanding decision making is actually really important, I gotta say I've never seen anyone below masters execute a 6 pool correctly (not well, but correctly). Even in masters I run into ppeople alll the time who let my drone make a spine in their base when they their drones min, or will attack into a belials drone flower of death even when they have a spine morphing in range. Really you shouuld beat most laddeer scrubs by just defensive drone stacking and they attack it.


Agreed, but it's partly a question of learning style. Reading the whole thing end to end is well and good (and I did so) but I often retain things better if I try something on my own first, screw it up royally, and then read a detailed guide to find out how I should have done it. Since I have a personal experience of my own to relate it to, I tend to remember it better and it stays with me longer. If I read the whole thing through once I'm unlikely to retain more than a general concept.

For example, attempting to do your drone flower trick, failing miserably and then re-reading that section of your guide taught me that that the word "repeatedly" (as in "click repeatedly") is very important. I found that very easy to miss on a first read, but I don't think I'll forget it in a hurry now.
Mongolbonjwa
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland376 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 08:38:27
May 07 2012 06:45 GMT
#159
Base trade against drone all in 6pool will 100% lose you the game because enemys drones and lings are already in your base so they kill your buildings before you can kill theirs because you are not even at their base yet.

Also

"I don’t recommend expanding and trying to just macro quickly. It’s quite common for a 6 pool to simply transition into a roach all-in or some other type of all-in, and you can usually end the game with the huge macro lead you’ll have even with both of you on 1 base. However, there are two instances I’d recommend expanding, one is when the opponent gets double queen to block scouting."

You first said that expanding can lose you game if enemy goes roach allin or other type allin, but now you recommend expanding if you can not even scout. What? Also you were recommending expanding against roach allin while you previously did not recommend it. What?

"you can take his first 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones"
No you cant. If he has 4 drones and 8 lings, you will lose the fight if all you have is 18 drones.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
May 07 2012 16:12 GMT
#160
^ You clearly did not read that section completely ^^

Base trade against drone all in 6pool will 100% lose you the game because enemys drones and lings are already in your base so they kill your buildings before you can kill theirs because you are not even at their base yet.


That is why I say you MUST have a scouting drone - against drone all-in variations of 6/7/8 pool, you will lose because of this exact reason. Your pool will die before your drones can get to their base to plant a spine. If you had a scouting worker, there is no way they will kill your pool before it finishes.

Also, a spine is a building too. The 2nd reason why you need a scouting worker. While an extractor can work too, the difference is that with making a spine, if you don't get at least 4 lings out, I'd recommend you just not kill their hatch and force a stalemate or for them to get hit by the spine (or, you can micro like a beast, but that's up to you...).

"I don’t recommend expanding and trying to just macro quickly. It’s quite common for a 6 pool to simply transition into a roach all-in or some other type of all-in, and you can usually end the game with the huge macro lead you’ll have even with both of you on 1 base. However, there are two instances I’d recommend expanding, one is when the opponent gets double queen to block scouting."

You first said that expanding can lose you game if enemy goes roach allin or other type allin, but now you recommend expanding if you can not even scout. What? Also you were recommending expanding against roach allin while you previously did not recommend it. What?


It'd be more clear if you use the quote tags.

This comes from what I first said, that you should get gas for ling speed asap against 6 pools (if he pulls drones, obviously you won't need it, and if you want to wait until after you hold, that's perfectly fine).

With speed and having lots of drones, you should be able to simply overwhelm 6/7/8 pools with just mass speedling, maybe banes too.

If the opponent goes double queen, you should have speed. Yea, he could go roach all-in, but now you have speed. You can expand, and if he turns out to roach all-in, you should hold it easily if you got speed, and played conservatively enough knowing he's only on 1 base, and you are on 2.


"you can take his first 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones"
No you cant. If he has 4 drones and 8 lings, you will lose the fight if all you have is 18 drones.


You can take his 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones if you get 4+ lings out
You can possibly take his 6-8 lings with 15-18 drones and 2 lings out but it's not guaranteed, due to micro and position
You cannot take out his 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones with less than 2 lings.

Don't conveniently leave out what I said.

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Vega62a
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
946 Posts
May 08 2012 15:06 GMT
#161
I really like this guide, (seriously saved my life, I had to take a break from SC2 after losing to 6 6pools in a row on the ladder, now I feel like I know how to deal with it) but there's a few scenarios that I don't see covered here that I wonder if you could address:

1. Any 6pool + drones (either 2 left or all drones) variation, opponent ignores your drones and goes straight for the spawning pool, possibly guarding his lings with his drones, but maybe not. It seems like this is very favorable for him - his lings have their backs to the spawning pool, so you either engage them unfavorably or you lose your pool. Is this a non-issue? i.e. if he does this, do you just let him hack at your pool and keep mining knowing that your pool will finish before it dies, put down a spine and lings when it finishes, and win? Or is there a specific way to engage this?

2. Infinite ling 6pool with the same situation - he decides he's going to dps your pool down, but when you get close with drones he fights you. It seems like you'd have to pull most or all of your drones to deal with this, putting you way behind. Again, nonissue? Or something to be concerned with?

2. Entombed valley. God do I hate this map. What is the optimal way to scout? I typically send an overlord to a close position, my second overlord cross-map, and a drone to the last close position, but even this seems fairly useless, as I don't believe the first overlord gets there in time to see a 6- or 10-pool. Should I just opt for a 14-gas 14-pool on this map instead?
Content of my posts reflects only my personal opinions, and not those of any employer or subsidiary
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
May 08 2012 15:38 GMT
#162
1. Any 6pool + drones (either 2 left or all drones) variation, opponent ignores your drones and goes straight for the spawning pool, possibly guarding his lings with his drones, but maybe not. It seems like this is very favorable for him - his lings have their backs to the spawning pool, so you either engage them unfavorably or you lose your pool. Is this a non-issue? i.e. if he does this, do you just let him hack at your pool and keep mining knowing that your pool will finish before it dies, put down a spine and lings when it finishes, and win? Or is there a specific way to engage this?


Your scouting worker is already in his base, morphing into a spine. The drone all-inner should be ignoring your drones (of course except to kill mismicro'd ones and to deny mining) and going straight for the pool. They can't take down a 15h/15p before the pool finishes. It only needs to be alive for a split second so you can morph that spine and make lings.

You really don't need a spine and that scouting worker 90% of the time. But here's the issue, if you run into someone good enough to surround your eggs:

- If you can get 4+ lings out, your golden. Don't need a spine
- If you can only get 2 or less lings out, you are screwed. By making a spine and NOT killing off his hatch, so you can keep it on creep indefinitely, you can force a stalemate in a situation you might otherwise lose.

I'll put it this way, if you only got 0-2 lings out:

If you made that spine, and didn't kill of his hatch, he won't attack you, and you will force a stalemate in a game you would otherwise lose.

If you didn't make that spine, he can just end the game and win.

If you have 1-3 lings, it's really quite ambiguous, and ALL comes down to micro. You can try to rely on something like running straight for his last remaining building (a spine) and kill it before he kills your 15 drones or extractor off, which honestly is much better odds for you. But the difference is that it's not guaranteed, and with a spine, it's YOUR choice.

That's why you always need a drone scout in ZvZ. If you want to avoid losing to drone all-in 6/7/8 pools with hatch first. What time you send out that drone scout, from 10 to 18, really doesn't matter.

As soon as he gets in your base, you just run away. If your pro, you can defensively drone stack and use mineral walking micro so you can mine with like 3 of the workers and mineral walk the rest to protect them, so you can squeeze out more money or bait him into a bad engagement. Basically, a spine forces an area of non-engagement. But until that spine is up, you can keep mining. Just get out of there before it's up. But yea, basically, just go straight toward his base when all his drones arrive in yours.

What I'm getting at here, is a very glorified but old and time-tested strategy of: Run away until your shit rallies together, then attack back. A spinecrawler is just a guarantee for you, insurance, in case you fuck up, or don't get 2+ lings out. Really, if you are good at your micro, you don't have to send a scouting worker at all, and can just use an extractor. But it's a lot easier, SO much easier - not only easier, but guaranteed win, whereas not making that spine really makes it about how many lings can you get out (you can reliably get 2 lings out, but not 4).

TLDR: He cant kill your morphing pool before it's finished for at least a split second, enough for you to make that spine and morph lings.

2. Infinite ling 6pool with the same situation - he decides he's going to dps your pool down, but when you get close with drones he fights you. It seems like you'd have to pull most or all of your drones to deal with this, putting you way behind. Again, nonissue? Or something to be concerned with?


Your drones should overwhelm his lings. Don't be afraid. That's why you placed your pool in a smart location.

If you placed it like 'simcity', blocking off a side of your mineral line (say, like would be ideal if you were trying to guard against banelings running into your mineral line), there's really no way for you to win, he can just attack your pool and every time you pool drones you just lose too much mining time and eventually you either starve to death or lose your pool..

But if you placed it smart enough, like behind the mineral line, any time he goes to attack it, you should be able to get a complete surround on his lings and easily kill them all.

And yea, it really doesn't matter anyways. You are making a spine. They won't kill the pool before your spine is up to protect it.

2. Entombed valley. God do I hate this map. What is the optimal way to scout? I typically send an overlord to a close position, my second overlord cross-map, and a drone to the last close position, but even this seems fairly useless, as I don't believe the first overlord gets there in time to see a 6- or 10-pool. Should I just opt for a 14-gas 14-pool on this map instead?


Why have you not veto'd this map?

On 4 player maps, you have 2 choices. Send an overlord the popular route, or where you think your opponent would send it if he spawned at that location (up/down routes on entombed, for example), so you can rule it out with your drone scout and go another way, or send it in the middle of the map, and redirect it when your scouting drone figures out where he spawned.

I did that for the longest time on TDA and other 4 player maps. Just struck me as stupid that everyone would send their overlords one way or another and 66.6% of the time their overlord just be completely screwed and on the wrong side of the map, when scouting overlords give just as much information to you as it does to your opponent (i mean if it's super close air spawn like metal, obviously air scout their base). On large 4 player maps, send your first overlord to the middle of the map. 66.6% of the time, your overlord will be in a better location closer to their base then where it would have been otherwise, and you are only giving information to your opponent.

Anyways I stated in the guide you need to drone scout. Don't get mad at me when not following my guide gets you killed :X.

Yea you won't see a 10 pool in time, just gg out basically.

Or, do what I've been doing recently.....:

10 drone scout!!
At 10 supply (earlier or later in the 10'th supply of time, ie right after making 10/10 drone to just before overlord pops), send a drone out. Even on the largest of maps, it will arrive before you plant a 14 hatch (so if you go 15 hatch, you can just send a drone when overlord pops), so you can avoid 10 pool shenanigans. If they went 2:00 or later pool (14 pool), just hatch first with the lead, and if they go hatch first, use the drone to block their hatch from going down, and take a much greedier pool and gas!
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Vega62a
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
946 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-08 17:44:39
May 08 2012 17:43 GMT
#163
On May 09 2012 00:38 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
2. Entombed valley. God do I hate this map. What is the optimal way to scout? I typically send an overlord to a close position, my second overlord cross-map, and a drone to the last close position, but even this seems fairly useless, as I don't believe the first overlord gets there in time to see a 6- or 10-pool. Should I just opt for a 14-gas 14-pool on this map instead?


Why have you not veto'd this map?

On 4 player maps, you have 2 choices. Send an overlord the popular route, or where you think your opponent would send it if he spawned at that location (up/down routes on entombed, for example), so you can rule it out with your drone scout and go another way, or send it in the middle of the map, and redirect it when your scouting drone figures out where he spawned.

I did that for the longest time on TDA and other 4 player maps. Just struck me as stupid that everyone would send their overlords one way or another and 66.6% of the time their overlord just be completely screwed and on the wrong side of the map, when scouting overlords give just as much information to you as it does to your opponent (i mean if it's super close air spawn like metal, obviously air scout their base). On large 4 player maps, send your first overlord to the middle of the map. 66.6% of the time, your overlord will be in a better location closer to their base then where it would have been otherwise, and you are only giving information to your opponent.

Anyways I stated in the guide you need to drone scout. Don't get mad at me when not following my guide gets you killed :X.

Yea you won't see a 10 pool in time, just gg out basically.

Or, do what I've been doing recently.....:

10 drone scout!!
At 10 supply (earlier or later in the 10'th supply of time, ie right after making 10/10 drone to just before overlord pops), send a drone out. Even on the largest of maps, it will arrive before you plant a 14 hatch (so if you go 15 hatch, you can just send a drone when overlord pops), so you can avoid 10 pool shenanigans. If they went 2:00 or later pool (14 pool), just hatch first with the lead, and if they go hatch first, use the drone to block their hatch from going down, and take a much greedier pool and gas!


The only map I have vetoed right now is TDA, I might start vetoing Entombed as well. I've found it to be god-awful for zerg in every matchup - T and P take a free 3rd base, Z's 4th is hard to defend.

What I'm saying is that I don't know that a 10 drone scout will necessarily spot a 6pool/10 pool before it is too late to stop it - or rather, I'm asking if it is guaranteed to do so. I'm completely ok with 10 drone scouting on a 4player map like that, since while it can put me at a disadvantage vs a greedy build, I'm comfortable playing with that small disadvantage. So is it the case that if I find him last with the 10 drone scout, I'll still be able to stop a 6 pool? (Understanding that you mentioned that 10p hard counters 15 hatch even if it's scouted.)
Content of my posts reflects only my personal opinions, and not those of any employer or subsidiary
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
May 09 2012 12:44 GMT
#164
On 2 player maps or 2+2 it is.

If you are going hatch first, it shouldn't put you at a disadvantage. vs 6-11 pool you can not throw down your hatch and come out ahead with a 14 pool, with 14/14 you can hatch first and comeout ahead, against a hatch firster you can just be greedier with your pool and gas.

Most pros dont drone scout, but I've noticed stephano 10 drone scouts in zvz, and has avoided multiple 10 pool losses as he usually goes hatch first.

10p hard counter 15 hatch if you throw down the hatch and already droned up to 15ish, and they react correctyl (like you can possibly hold 10 pool speedling, but not 10 pool 8 drone pull). If you catch them 10 pooling before you throw down the 10 pool, you can avoid hatch firsting against it and losing.

On 4 player maps builds like 10 pool are less common due to him having to scout to make it work. That's what makes up for not being able to drone scout in time.
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Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
May 09 2012 12:59 GMT
#165
What are the timings of the pools ? How do we recognize them ? I'm having trouble... Sometimes i think i'm getting 6 pooled, but its a 8 pool with 2 drones pull to put spine... Things like this... :/
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
May 09 2012 13:10 GMT
#166
2:00+ is 14+ pool. So when your 10 drone scout arrives at 2:00, basically, or right before you plant your 14 hatch, and the pool is nearly complete, that's a 10 pool. If it's clearly complete, it's 6/7/8 pool. If it's just planted and still in the red, it's 14+ pool.

As for understanding if he threw it at 6/7/8, that's a nuance that you can't really pick up until you are higher level, and it's honestly not that important until you learn to be greedier. Against certain variations of pools, you can actually keep your hatch, but I don't go over that.

All you need to know is:
1. Is he pulling all his drones?
2. Is there a spine?

And you can figure out what he's doing, and the appropriate response. You can tell if it's an 8 pool with 2 drones to put a spine, if you see him put down 2 spines, or pull 2 drones. It should be pretty obvious when you see 2 spines being made in your base :X
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Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
May 09 2012 13:34 GMT
#167
[B]

And you can figure out what he's doing, and the appropriate response. You can tell if it's an 8 pool with 2 drones to put a spine, if you see him put down 2 spines, or pull 2 drones. It should be pretty obvious when you see 2 spines being made in your base :X


Ya, and currently i loose everytime against this cheese... Infinite lings + 2 spines... Sooooo hard. tt
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
May 09 2012 13:52 GMT
#168
It's not infinite lings if there's 2 spines behind it. You have a very limited amount of minerals with a 6 pool, and getting the pool later (7, 8) buys around 100 minerals with a lot of time.

So like an 8 pool can have lots of lings and 2 spines, but it will be so late that your pool will have been started by the time he comes at you.

Really you just need to use Belial's Bosswalk against doublespine.
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KangaRuthless
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States304 Posts
May 29 2012 20:57 GMT
#169
Thanks for writing this very detailed guide. I'm waiting for screens to load at work and yes, it literally has taken the 40 minutes it took to read this entire guide in-depth.

I now realize that half the times I lost to early Pools was because I responded inappropriately. Also, I never fully realised how powerful denying mining truly is versus getting Drone kills - one reason why my early Pools tend to fail horribly.

Anyways, the 7Pool double Spine always scared me the most. I can't wait to try out the BossWalk If anyone who's read this wants to practice these strats, PM me.

+ Show Spoiler +
I agree about lower league guys not knowing how to early Pool. I kept trying a 10 Pool vs a Random Master on Xel'Naga who 15 Hatch'd every game and I still lost every game

I also finally understand your beef with that Moose guy. It's kinda funny.
www.youtube.com/KangaRuthless
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-29 21:07:14
May 29 2012 21:04 GMT
#170
who's moose? im sorry i rarely remember posters by name

glad you like the guide. sorry it's so long, I plan to write a condensed guide when I write my zvz guide.

anyways, i rarely have to use the information in this guide anymore.

I go Hatch first 10 drone scout in ZvZ - if someone goes 6-12 pool, I just respond with a 15 pool and basically autowin with the lead. If they go 14/14, I'm ahead, and if they try to go hatch first I block it with the scouting worker, and just take a much much greedier gas and pool, since I see when they took their's. I don't know why doesn't everyone do this in zvz, it seems to me the overwhelming majority of pro zvz loses because of 10 pool vs 14 pool or 10 pool vs hatch first, just avoid losing to such silly strats with a 10 drone scout.

However, stephano and violet do this hatch first 10 drone scout... so maybe it'll catch on.
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trevaur
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada13 Posts
May 31 2012 08:02 GMT
#171
Do you think all of your guide still applies to the current metagame? Do you think that this guide applies to even the highest level of SC2? I was talking to a top GM about 6 pools and I mentioned your guide and he scoffed at me and said that you aren't ranked high enough for people to take this guide seriously and doubted that it was up to date with the current metagame. I am just wondering if you have anything to say about that.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-31 08:45:06
May 31 2012 08:22 GMT
#172
Do you think all of your guide still applies to the current metagame? Do you think that this guide applies to even the highest level of SC2? I was talking to a top GM about 6 pools and I mentioned your guide and he scoffed at me and said that you aren't ranked high enough for people to take this guide seriously and doubted that it was up to date with the current metagame. I am just wondering if you have anything to say about that.


1. Yes all my guides are up to date, as long as I'm an active poster. I constantly update all of my guides, I just don't post or keep a changelog because I don't shamelessly bump my threads whenever it falls off the front page like this guy. In my ZvT Guide, I just added a section on baneling busting, as well as a VOD for it, as well as added some new information in regards to recent metagame usage of ultralisks, new metagame builds like zenio's 3 hatch baneling bust and a replay of him doing it vs MC succesffully in my zvp guide, as well as basic edits like cleaning up and clarifying the section on 2 base muta and 2 base infestor play in zvp.

I also monitor new changes in the metagame, and right now I'm keeping an especially close eye on ZENEXsuhosin, who goes infestors immediately when going fast third in zvp, despite when I say that I 'recommend against' getting infestors quickly against 2 base toss (except against double stargate), as well as slayers_yugioh and coca who goes 2 base infestor every zvp. So far, suhosin either went infestors against double stargate, or lost, and yugioh and coca do horribly in zvp, and have so far lost every time they did it, and the core of their builds were the same as 2 base infestor as it was when it was more popular almost a year ago, as a 2 base timing attack that needs to do damage or else it will get rolled by macro toss who push out with colossi. But they obviously have success with it if they were going to use it in the GSL, and I hear that such 2 base play is really popular nowadays on the ladder in KR suddenly, so like I said, I'm keeping a close eye on these players.

2. Yes, my guides apply to all levels of sc2. My guides are all very basic. In the case of this guide, I actually practiced with a GM (and this was back when I was diamond I believe, i think i hit masters, dropped back due to inactivity, then came back to masters, right around when i published this guide), as you can see in the replay section. As in the case of my ZvT/ZvP guides, they are just basics. There is no build I'm pushing, no particular strategy or approach to the match-up that I'm advocating. They are just comprehensive builds - how to all-in, how to do everything, how to scout, and how to play a standard game, which is extremely rare in a guide these days on TL (every guide is just how to do a bad all-in it seems).

Whether your GM friend likes me or not doesn't matter, not only does he already know everything in my guides, he follows my guides exactly. My guides are just that 'standard'. Obviously, my own opinion comes out in these guides, but I try to make clear whenever it's my opinion rather than standard play. If he has any disagreements, he's free to post in my guides, I've been wrong many times been before, and been quite open about it. He is completely right, I'm a low level player, right now I'm a 900+ points Masters player on NA, so I'm just some random ladder scrub that's absolute crap.

But like I said - these guides are just the basics. it's not so much they are 'applicable' at the highest levels of play, it's more like that this is what is going on in all high level games, at they're core. While I try to go in-depth as much as I can, all 3 match-ups have a very general gameflow - ie zvp Toss takes their natural, Zerg takes a third, zerg defends pressure with roach/ling, then toss tries to take a third against roach/ling with sentries and tech (immortals, blink, or stargate, but can be more or less), then zerg tries to get hive tech before the 3+ colossi push comes, then zerg pushes back while toss gets a mothership, then zerg pushes back very carefully before mass carriers are out, et cetera. There's just a very predictable game flow - it's not like zvp is a matter of "is he going stalkers or is he going archons?!?!" it's "he's going immortal/sentry/stalker/immortal/zealot, and if he does anything else at the 12:00 mark, he'll die to me".

These guides are more like observations of the game. The metagame does change, but these guides aren't so radical as to not account for that. These guides are basic - if suddenly DTs became popular in ZvP, that wouldn't really change the guide at all - the gameflow is the same, I talk about how to handle DTs and that will be the same. If something as radical, as, say, the mothership + archon toilet being uncovered, sure, I'll add, but it doesn't make the guide 'outdated' or wrong by any means, it just makes the guide what it always was - a comprehensive guide about everything, but obviously not EVERYTHING.

3. Your friend is completely right. He's more than welcome to post in my threads or PM me, I'd love to improve the guides to meet a GM's standards. I understand that generally, it would actually cost money to use the time of such skilled players. I wouldn't mind buying a lesson or working something out where we could improve the guides though, maybe if enough people like my guides, we can start something like chipping in a penny in a pot so the TL community could come up with an uber-guide.

I do not disagree with him at all, but I think his analysis of my guides are a little rough. I wonder if he's actually read through the entirety of my guides, and what is it that he actually disagrees with. I'm not posing anything new in these guides, this is all information all high level players already know. I'm not challenging anything established with these guides, it's just the basics, the standards of the game. There is nothing really arguable in my guides. This guide right here, was the most arguable of my guides, and you can see through the pages how I was proven correct, with no shortage of evidence and testing.

EDIT: fuck I wrote a long ass post, deleted it because it was way too long and was going to rewrite it really short, and it's just even longer.

tldr The guides are up to date. The guides keep up with the metagame. I update them as long as I'm an active poster, and I'm very active. The guides are just the basics, there is nothing arguable in my guides, whether your friend likes me or not, he follows the guides because it's just the standards that everyone does and covers everything you could do so it covers all styles as well. Yes, I'm quite low level, but there is nothing arguable in my guides. I say a lot of stupid shit, but not in my guides. I keep the controversial, opinionated thoughts out of my guides, I make sure of that. [/b]
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trevaur
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada13 Posts
June 01 2012 05:45 GMT
#173
Woa, thanks for the in-depth reply! Yeah, I got into an argument with him because he was insisting that even Koreans die to 6 pools if they go hatch first, so there must not be any way to defend against them. I tried to explain that just because Koreans haven't figured it out doesn't mean it's not possible and mentioned that you had written this guide detailing how to defend against it.

I do have a question about defending 6 pools that I couldn't find the answer to in your guide. It seems like infinite ling and drone+spine can look pretty similar, yet there are completely different reactions to them. The specific scenario that I want to know how to react against is a 7pool where they pull 2 drones. When there are 2 drones in your base, it seems like they can still go for an infinite ling style while threatening at any moment to throw down 2 spines. How are you supposed to respond to this? It seems like if you throw down a spine in your mineral line then he can throw 2 down out of reach of yours and just defend the spines, making your spine basically useless. But if you don't throw down a spine, then you are both constantly producing lings but he got a head start and can threaten to overwhelm you. WWBD?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 01 2012 06:16 GMT
#174
koreans have figured out how to defend 6 pool. Losira vs kyrix is a great example, the "history of blind 15 hatch in zvz" covers it really well. You even see zergs defending 10 pools nowadays too. although that is because they are doing stupid 10 pools, quite frankly, ie nasl sen vs vibe antiga g2. Nestea did a 'bad' 10 pool against DRG, a 10 pool speedling. He lost, and he never did it again, now he makes sure to only 10 pool and pull 8 drones like he came up with a while back.

10 pool bane, or 10 pool pull 8 drones, is the best way, no way hatch first can beat either of those (in case of banes, it does take micro, but just dont fuck it up and your good, and it's a little safer if they dont hatch first imo).

infinite ling is obvious because they dont pull drones to make any spines. both of them don't pull every drone, so you know not to base trade. If they morph a spine, fight, if they dont morph a spine, just delay forever.

if there are 2 drones in your base, they cant go for an 'infinite ling' style because its 2 drones less mining, or a 33% income hit. Just assume he's trying to morph spines with those drones, and fight him. if he morphs any spines, you attack them with just 4 drones. You shouldn't really be making spines against someone who is morphing spines themselves (unless it's really, really close, in which case it's just a judgement call, and it's something extra on top of the lings you are making and the fighting you are doing). if he has no drones, make a spine.

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Xana
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark128 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-01 06:45:52
June 01 2012 06:31 GMT
#175
They key here is that they cannot both stream lings and make spines.
Once he makes spines, thats 100-200 minerals that cannot be spent on lings. Thats four sets or 8 lings that won't be comming out for a good period of time.
So the answer is simple, if he's not immediately making spines; Know that more lings are probably on the way. If he is making spines immediately, deal with it like normally.

Edit: I was beat to it.
He who walks arrives.
trevaur
Profile Joined May 2012
Canada13 Posts
June 01 2012 07:06 GMT
#176
So, the answer is make a spine, but then cancel it if he starts making a spine? Or do you let yours finish and try to prevent his from finishing? Also, how many drones do you need to be mining to constantly be producing lings? I've heard 5, but I'm not sure how accurate this is.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 01 2012 07:39 GMT
#177
^ lol its not that complicated.

if he has drones in your base, he's probably going to make spines. whatever though, that's not the core of the issue. You see drones in your base, it means he can't be going INFINITE ling because he can't rally INFINITE lings if he's not mining with all of his 5 workers.

If you happened to make a spine, whatever, let it finish - maybe you'll lose for making the wrong decision, but you've already made it, just play the game out.

but if he has drones in your base, attack him because he wont have many lings, and just pull back right before your lings pop, so you can attack with your lings. you know, use judgement, go in unit tester and see how drones fight against lings. get a feel for it, really. If he doesnt have any drones in your base, then its clearly infinite ling.

It's a lot about understanding, which is why this guide is so long, and it's important to understand. Spines are nasty - it creates a zone where you simply cannot ffight in, but it also means his lings are weaker, so that his spines when morphing, are basically unprotected. If he has no spines, it mean you can just bounce around in your mineral line for 10 minutes because he can't force an engagement, as 15 stacked drones will just beat soooo many lings, over 10, easily. As in belial's defensive drone flower of death.

So no spine, it means it's easy, just chill out and mineral walk a bunch. I recommend making a spine and protecting it by mineral walking all around it so he can't engage it, although making lings are okay (although not recommended, because if hes mining at home, he has the same rate of production as you, so i guess you'd have to make a queen too if you didnt want to make a spine...).

no drones = make spine, mineral walk, buy time.
drones = attack, he wont have as many lings because that drone isn't mining at home.

yea about 5 drones to constantly produce lings, not sure on exact. but that means he can't go infinite ling if a quarter+ of his drones are not mining, and have not been mining for the last minute.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
thePROtoss
Profile Joined April 2011
United States18 Posts
June 01 2012 16:20 GMT
#178
With proper drone micro you can actually increase your DPS. There was actually a guide about how a guy beat WhiteRa with a 12 drone rush and was outnumbered, to increase your DPS with drones i believe it was Hold position then attack, when you hold position the drones automatically attack whatever is in range, then by pressing a + move your drones attack again. So I believe that should work in increasing your DPS with drones. But this is something you'd only do if you have a decent surround on your opponent's units, otherwise stacking is probably your best bet.
Day [9] explains micro : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG_XYFTp0xo
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 01 2012 23:16 GMT
#179
^ that's actually wrong. There wasn't a guide about 12 drone rush, there was just some guy who likes to get banned that posted a semi-blog/guide and shamelessly bumps it every 2 weeks. And I mean you're wrong about the micro.

What you are saying doesn't work at all, if it did it would be incredibly broken. You would just send a worker scout to someone's base and hit a/h/a/h/a/h and kill enemy workers in 2 seconds...

It's using hold position on workers in a fight, in the same fashion you pull back hurt stalkers, or units, in a fight (pulling back zealots or lings, blink micro, roach vs roach burrow micro, colossi vs colossi, etc). Since drones that are not attacking have neutral target priority, while units have a hostile target priority the same as an enemy unit (eg if there's a single enemy unit near a mineral field, the banelings will go towards that unit instead of blowing up on the juicy workers). So instead of pulling back weak workers in a fight, you just hit hold real quick on them, so the enemy's units attack a new target, and then you a-move again with that worker real quick, so it's still contributing to the fight, but is no longer being hit because now a new, healthier drone is being attacked.

It's just a better way to do pull-back micro with drones, abusing the target priority system, and allows you to do more damage, because instead of having to walk all that way, you just stand in range of the opponent's units but essentially pull the back, without having to pull them back, so they can jump back into the fight againq uickly.

In my guide, I made sure to come up with strategies that DONT require good micro at all, but obviously, if you can pull this off, go for it. In reality though, I think 99% of people are better off focusing on their macro (yes in 6 pool scenarios) and correct decision making, they are much more important than micro.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:15:57
June 02 2012 00:44 GMT
#180
.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-02 07:57:31
June 02 2012 07:22 GMT
#181
The whole point of trying to mineral walk is to aim for a surround, yet going back and forth in the mineral line opens the real possibility that you'll be fighting in a choke which is the worst thing to do.


I never recommend in the guide to mineral walk.

And I don't think mineral walking opens up the possibility of fighting in a choke... protoss do it just fine when fighting 6 pools. You just don't fight when mineral walking, and you know... you getting the whole surround is a great thing, and if you dont get it, just mineral walk some more. I'm sure you are capable of mineral walking just fine.

The guide is actually very simple, read the In short, sans explanation of the why sections at the end of each 6 pool variation. It's literally 2-3 steps to beat each early pool variation that requires very minimal micro. What's complicated, is the understanding, and what to do when things don't go perfectly (yes, holding it is easy, but maybe you forgot an overlord, maybe you forgot your pool, maybe you let the spine finish).

I'm sure I'll get complaints from belial as I did earlier in the post when I showed replays of how some thing he tries to do can be defeated. Also worth noting is the focus on 6 pool when in fact the 7 pool is much stronger.


Ah, now I remember you. So, you messaged me on battle.net saying you wanted to test some things out with me, not that you didn't believe me or wanted me to prove anything to you - you asked me to help you. You asked me to execute certain defenses, against the early pool you would execute, to see how it would hold up. Then, you posted the replays as 'proof' that my guide doesn't work, when in those exact replays, I do the exact opposite of what I say to do in my guide.

At the time, during the games, I figured you just wanted to test some things out, see why certain strategies worked or didn't. But then, you post the replays here and wave it around saying you proved something. I gotta say, your a douchebag, and anyone can watch the replays as realize that duh, of course they didn't work out, it's because I wasn't following my own guide.

Pull drones, a move outside the mineral line, win. If they dance away it's just letting you get your pool up.


It makes no sense why you think a-moving in the open is better then mineral walking through an opponent and getting a full surround, and not everyone has GM level micro like you do, you have to realize that this guide is written mostly for lower level players.

There is actually a lot more in-depth stuff that I did not cover - how to beat certain early pool variations without cancelling the hatch, how to tell the difference between 6, 7, and 8 pool timings, and how to beat early pool variations by using micro over decision making.

There are plenty of ways to beat 6/7/8 pools, but none of them are easier to pull off then the ones I wrote, and none of them are as guaranteed, and all of them require some degree of micro.

Also, you can't just 'a-move' if the opponent brings all his drones, nor can you a-move if the opponent goes infinite ling, as his rate of production is the same as yours and he has a 8 ling head start on you. This guide talks about an easy way to hold 6/7/8 pools, without having to rely on micro - not everyone is GM like you and is able to pull off your level of micro. Yes, it's surprising how bad low masters, or platinums, or whatever is, but I came up with a guide that not only allows low level players to beat early pools, but higher level players to beat early pools more convincingly.

By the way, I do talk about the differences between 6/7/8 pools, but the major differences in such builds are the decisions you need to make based on pulling drones or not, and making spines or not. You can't react to a drone all-in the same as infinite ling, regardless of 6/7/8 pool timing, but you do react to a 6 pool drone all-in the same as you would react to an 8 pool drone all-in. If you get into the minutia of 6 vs 7 vs 8, it would be wayyyy longer of a guide, so I came up with pretty general strategies that handle pools by variation rather than pool timing. Yes, I could talk about how to beat a 7 pool infinite ling by keeping your hatch, while against a 6 pool you must cancel it, but it's much easier to beat both variations using the strategies I came up with.

I encourage you to please read the guide more in-depth.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:16:01
June 02 2012 07:57 GMT
#182
.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 02 2012 07:58 GMT
#183
^ Yes people, if you are GM level, or even low masters level, just micro. Otherwise, use the easy, micro-less, guaranteed strategies in my guide.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-03 00:16:04
June 02 2012 08:26 GMT
#184
.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 02 2012 20:54 GMT
#185
I retort you are a troll for when you messaged me on bnet to help you practice, and then you post the replays as 'proof' that my guide doesn't work, when I don't even do what my own guide says to do because you told me you wanted to try out new things.

A-moving in the open doesn't work against all variations of 6 pool. It doesn't work against spines, it doesn't work against drones.

I'm glad you agree with me now though that you can hold all variations of 6/7/8 pool with hatch first. Your earlier posts claimed you could not, I'm glad you are now admitting you were wrong.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Peleus
Profile Joined March 2010
Australia420 Posts
June 03 2012 00:16 GMT
#186
No worries, I'm over trying to help and contribute to the people reading guides like this. I'll just keep the strats to myself and win more because of it. Everyone - Do it belials way, thanks for the wins.

Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
June 06 2012 14:10 GMT
#187
Hello there

I'm having a big trouble against 8 pool + double spines. The opponent is droning the same time. So, i have to fight, but i loose a lot of drone.
At the end of the fight, i have 5 drones, he has 14.

I used bosswalk & mineral walk. But the point is : i loose so much drones i cant win...

Do you have any idea ?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 06 2012 21:32 GMT
#188
Replay please. You should be able to win with a straight up a-move since he's not reinforcing.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
June 07 2012 10:47 GMT
#189
No problem. Here you'll find it !

Please notice i dont 15 hatch but 14 pool... So holding this should have been easier... But i just got owned ^^

http://drop.sc/193159
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
June 07 2012 19:09 GMT
#190
On June 07 2012 19:47 Insoleet wrote:
No problem. Here you'll find it !

Please notice i dont 15 hatch but 14 pool... So holding this should have been easier... But i just got owned ^^

http://drop.sc/193159


1. Your mineral walking was weird. You didn't select every drone, causing you to lose 3 drones right away.
2. I never recommend mineral walking. You would have had more success with Belial's Drone Floral Arrangement of Death.

I talk about double spine pools in my guide. At first you did what I said not to do - a-move, and pull 4 drones to attack the morphing spine like you would against a single spine. But then, you do Belial's Bosswalk.

It seems you just have a little bit of indecision here, that's all. There were a few minor mistakes, you could have easily held.

For example, because of him making 2 spines, he could only afford 8 lings. You easily crush his force with an a-move, and just when it looks like you are about to win, you select half of your drones to focus the spine. Suddenly, it goes from you owning his lings, to losing another 5 drones.

Then, when his spine finishes, you have a queen and a ton of lings. But even though you had enough to take down the weakened spine with your lings/queen, you chose to continue fighting with your drones, losing another 3-4 to the spine.

You weren't that far off in holding, just some minor problems and decision making. Need to be more confident.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Insoleet
Profile Joined May 2012
France1806 Posts
June 07 2012 20:15 GMT
#191
Ok thanks ! I'll try do hold better next time so
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-11 07:34:49
August 11 2012 07:34 GMT
#192
Belial asked me to post this replay of me holding off a 6-pool going Hatch First. (So yes, I have a good reason to necro this!) This is an "Infinite Ling" 6-pool. It's a very low-level game, but should be useful to Bronze-Gold players: If I'd been more decisive, I could have saved the hatchery as well. I use Belial's Floral Arrangement of Death to come out ahead, then just pump lings while maintaining a drone advantage, eventually closing it out with a ling/bling attack.

http://drop.sc/236588
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
BounCy
Profile Joined November 2011
South Africa3 Posts
August 11 2012 10:09 GMT
#193
Really nice guide, will definitely use this, hate losing to 6 pool/6pool drones all in while 15 hatching on ladder, so annoying!
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
September 21 2012 00:30 GMT
#194
Sorry to necro this thread again, but I just discovered this on Shokz' site: http://shokzguide.com/starcraft-2-guides/how-to-beat-a-6-pool-in-starcraft-2/

I always thought Shokz was full of it, but blatantly ripping this entire thread seems to be a new low. Read awesome guide from Belial, wait 6 months, post it as your own... profit!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 21 2012 00:56 GMT
#195
^ What a douchebag. Thanks for bringing that up.

Here's a revised version of this guide I did. A lot simpler, a lot cleaner, and imo a lot better. I wasn't really sure how to post it so I posted it as a post in someone else's thread. Maybe I'll edit the OP:

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 00:57:04
September 21 2012 00:56 GMT
#196
[image loading] vs [image loading]


Hi. I'm a 1500+ Masters Zerg, who also wrote:

  • [G] Belial’s Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvP!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Everything ZvT!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Overlords!
  • [G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 pool!
  • Belial's Guide: How to Build a Budget PC
  • ZvP: Ling/Infestor or: How I Grew to Love ZvP

This is a new guide on how to beat all types of 6/7/8 Pools with Hatch First, as well as a few types of 10 Pools. The other guide was way too long, and too wordy. This is an update


6/7/8 Pool Drone All-in
+ Show Spoiler +

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

7 Pool, Drone
6xLings
Send All but 2 Drones when Lings nearly finish
@140 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick 4xLings, send last 2 drones


Continue to Drone up, and make an overlord. Cancel Nat.
Send out a drone to put a spine in his base, then base trade when he arrives.


This is because you want to plant a spine in his base as your last building, as spines can walk off creep without losing health, and if you screw up, you can force a stalemate by not killing his hatch. An extractor works, but a spine makes things much easier.

When he arrives at your base, run to his base via mineral walking (If you defensively drone stack, then right click another mineral patch, then right click a mineral patch in his base or at another base before they arrive to the currently destined patch, they will stay stuck as 'one drone'.

Rally lings, careful not to lose them.

If you get out with 4+ Lings, you will win a straight up fight easily.
If you get out with 2+ Lings, you will need to micro
If you get out with less than 2 lings, you will lose without superior micro. Force a stalemate, or bumrush his last building, his spine, if he lets your drones get between him and his spine (15 drones will kill a walking spine quicker than 10 lings+6 Drones can kill the 15 drones)

Getting enough Lings out:
[image loading]

Focusing his spine down because you didn't get any lings out:
[image loading]

6 Pool with Mass Lings (with 0-2 Spines)
+ Show Spoiler +

A 6/7/8 Pool with Lings rallied and may or may not have a Spine.

If he doesn't make a spine, make 2 spines in your mineral line, and defensively mineral walk to protect it, as you will win any battle inside the mineral line with a full surround. But most people make spines, so:

Continue droning up, make an overlord, Cancel Nat.
Pull 4 Drones to focus 1 spine at a time, and be extremely aggressive in the open, you will easily win.


If someone does a 6 Pool with Spine, attack. Do not be afraid to be extremely aggressive - the opponent will not have enough lings or units to beat your army. Aggressively attack toward him, and then pull 4+ drones to attack the spine. If he makes 2 spines, be even more aggressive, as no ling reinforcements will be on the way, and you can definitely win the battle. The key here is really, really, really being super aggressive with your drones in this fight.

Micro is also important. Use hold position on hurt drones, and if you just have a few drones attacking and able to be attacked (like going through a choke), box over them and mineral walk them to retreat them to the back of the line. Never engage in a choke.

As you can see in this replay, I'm extremely aggressive against the 6 Pool Double Spine, and just absolutely crush his army, taking any chance he backs off, to kill his spines. Don't pull 4+4 drones per spine, only pull 4 drones at a time to focus a single spine at a time, and then with the rest of the drones, attack (if you pull 8 of your drones away, you won't win a fight). Simply work one spine down, then the other, and if he runs away, pull the fighting fleet of drones to attack the other spine.

The reason you can't, say, just put X+1 spines in your mineral line and defensively drone stack and pool lings and wait until the spines pop, so you can re-root and engage, is because a 6 pool + Spines can actually focus your hatch down before your spines finish, and that just sucks.

PS: If anyone is dumb enough to just attack your drones, defensively drone stack (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) and kill all his units. Sometimes you'll run into stupid people who will just a-move into your drones, and you defensively drone stack and they'll lose everything to it, even when they have a spine on the way (at which point you can just overwhelm that spine quite easily).

Zero Spines
[image loading]

2 Spines
http://drop.sc/240313


10 Pool Baneling
+ Show Spoiler +

CheckPrime first showcased this as an anti-hatch first build, and after Nestea's 10 pool, this has since fallen out of favor. Still deadly, but beatable.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

- 10 Pool
- 10 Gas
- Overlord, Extractor trick
- Constant Lings, Morph Banelings at opponent's base


To beat this:
- Morph 3 Spines in Mineral Line, a little bit spread out so baneling splash doesn't wipe all of them out easily (he shouldn't go for them, but if he does)
- 2xQueens
- Spread your drones very well


You actually need to micro pretty well to beat this, as in spread your drones like a boss (you should see him morphing banes and start working on splitting right away). It's okay if you lose half your drones, with 2 queens, 2+ spines, and a hatch, you should be immune to further aggression.

10 pool Speedling
+ Show Spoiler +

Nestea used this against DRG. It failed, because it can be easily held off. No one has done it since.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

10 Gas, Drone
10 Pool, Overlord
Speed, Pull from Gas
Queen, Lings


Make a spine in Nat and Main.
2 Queens
Mass Lings when you see he's clearly 10 Pooling (Pull drones if necessary)
Block the ramp


So how can you tell it's a 10 Pool that's pooling speedlings, and not, say a 14/14 all-in? Send that overlord you sent to his nat, to check into his main real quick. If a Queen is there, it's a 10 Pool. Or, if you see Lings flowing across the map ~3:00 (a 10 pool finishes around 2:50) without drones backing them up, and he isn't morphing banelings in your base.

It's pretty easy to beat this. Now that you know it's a 10 pool speedling, you'll want to make a spine in both your main and nat (if he sends his initial lings immediately over, this is important, as well as when the speedling mass comes). Pool lings at your ramp, where him having speed won't mean anything, and hold position with your queens there, and eventually bring the spine from your nat, to your natural, when you see you can clearly hold the ramp.


http://drop.sc/239613 Masses up
http://drop.sc/239614 Attacks straight away

10 Pool Plain
+ Show Spoiler +

Curious does this from time to time.

Just defensively drone stack while getting Queens, Lings

If he only sends lings, do not run around in circles around your hatchery like Lalush did vs Curious. Instead, defensively drone stack in a recessed mineral patch (Belial's Drone Flower of Death) until your Lings, Queens pop. Pretty straightforward. Don't cancel your natural, just pull your drones and queens to save it if he goes for it. This type of 10 pool is pretty silly.



10 Pool with 8 of 12 Drones Pulled and 1-2 Spines
+ Show Spoiler +

For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main. However, never fear, there's a way to beat it.

Build Order
+ Show Spoiler +

- 10 Pool
@125 Minerals, Double Extractor Trick, Drone scout for Hatch First
- 8+ Lings
- Send 8 of 12 drones when Lings are about to pop
- Make 1 Spine at each base of opponent or 2 Spines


You lose
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 01:02:12
September 21 2012 00:58 GMT
#197
holy shit he's charging money for it. I have copyright over what I've posted, that's grounds for legal action.

-_-

edit: lol it's a straight rip, the parts about belial drone flower of death are straight in there. people must be like "who's belial? shouldnt it be shokz drone flower of death?"

and what do you mean you always thought shokz was full of it? does he have some history? ive never even heard of him.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 21 2012 01:12 GMT
#198
It looks like he's ripped off a couple people's guides, but on the other ones, at the bottom it will says "Source: link". wtf
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Salivanth
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Australia1071 Posts
September 21 2012 02:54 GMT
#199
Wow, Shokz really is an ass

What I would do with the revised guide is to edit the OP, put that as the main guide, but at the bottom put your old guide in spoiler tags with something like "Really in-depth look at 6-pool variants" as the label.
<@Wikt> so you are one of those nega-fans <@Wikt> that hates the company that makes a game and everything they stand for <@Wikt> but still plays the game <@Wikt> (like roughly 30% of blizzard's player base, maybe much more...)
Discarder
Profile Joined July 2012
Philippines411 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-21 04:08:28
September 21 2012 04:06 GMT
#200
Sir,

i lose 100% of games like this (early pool + 1 spine). The reason is the pool doesnt finish early enough to fight the lings arriving and I just lose mining time/drones. (This is from 13 drone scout, 15 hatch). My drones don't seem enough to fight the lings and the spine.

I may post a replay soon.
You can take the lion out of the jungle, but you can't take the jungle out of the lion
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
September 21 2012 04:11 GMT
#201
You just need to a-move. Don't worry about the pool finishing, it's about holding with drones, not lings, just like a cannon rush, 2 rax, 2 gate, etc. Box over 4 of the drones real quick and then right click them on the spine. Eventually your pool will finish. Just make sure to macro up the entire time (make an overlord so you dont get blocked, continue pumping drones, start lings when pool pops).

Also, against single spine variations you can also just make 2 spines in your natural, stay in your mineral line with a belial's floral arrangement of death so he can't attack you (or just mineral walk, whatever). You can't do this against 2 spines because 2 spines will kill your hatch very quickly, but against single spines this is actually an acceptable way to hold. Then when spines pop, uproot them, and a-move with all the lings, drones, and possibly queen even, that you have.

Micro helps (hit hold position on hurt drones, mineral walk back hurt drones, etc) but it's really not necessary. He can't engage you, so if you a-move, he has to back off, which lets you just focus his spine down. Which forces him to come back to engage you. But he can't engage you because your force is too big.

The problem only arises if you wait too long and are too prudent, in which case that ling force will get big and that spine will finish. By a-moving as soon as he arrives, it allows you to take out that spine asap and/or lower his ling count. He can't get his spine up without taking significant losses. or actually all of his lings, because X-4 drones will overpower 8-10 lings.
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JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
September 21 2012 14:27 GMT
#202
On September 21 2012 09:58 Belial88 wrote:
and what do you mean you always thought shokz was full of it? does he have some history? ive never even heard of him.

I had only heard of him because I knew he wrote up a guide and was charging people for it. Given the massive amount of free information on SC2 strategy on TL.net, I thought he must be full of it. I then decided to briefly look through his site, and the guide to defending 6pools sounded just like what I remembered your guide to be, and what do you know? Straight copy + paste.

Looking back on it now, learning to just drone up to 18 and a-move all my drones has helped me immensely in defending early pools. Thanks for the awesome guide and sorry that it's been fully copy+pasted with no link for credit.
GWBuffalo
Profile Joined January 2011
United States234 Posts
September 21 2012 21:21 GMT
#203
On September 21 2012 09:58 Belial88 wrote:
holy shit he's charging money for it. I have copyright over what I've posted, that's grounds for legal action.

-_-

edit: lol it's a straight rip, the parts about belial drone flower of death are straight in there. people must be like "who's belial? shouldnt it be shokz drone flower of death?"

and what do you mean you always thought shokz was full of it? does he have some history? ive never even heard of him.


He has been around since the beta/release. When SC2 was released, advertisements for all his guides were everywhere.

At the time, I torrented his guide, just to see what was in there.... and it was basically just a bunch of shit pulled from TL and pasted together.

I hope you can find a way to bring him some pain for ripping your work.
Zheryn
Profile Joined December 2010
Sweden3653 Posts
September 22 2012 01:01 GMT
#204
Just got 6pooled, tried the flower of death, but I don't think I understand how to execute it. It didn't seem like I did much damage, and every time I stopped spamming on minerals to make a few lings, he killed off a few drones. Is there a trick to executing the flower thingy better, or is it just spamming as fast as possible on minerals and A-move then back?
hundred thousand krouner
Nurfie
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden24 Posts
October 16 2012 21:08 GMT
#205
Been practicing holding 10pool speedling when my opponent just tries to take my natural down without losing lings and constantly reinforcing, and I am completely unable to stop it.
In the replay in the OP the guy doing the 10 pool basically waits 4-5 seconds after pool pops before building 2 sets of lings instead of 3, and often has idle larvae. This results in a hatch with 80% hp instead of sub 50% when it pops, and I cant seem to get the spine in my natural up in time and/or cant mine enough to produce enough lings since i have to defend the hatch with my drones.

Also, the "plain" 10pool vs the 10pool with speed reaction in the OP seems to differ alot, yet there is absolutely no way of me knowing if its the speed variation when it first hits without drone scouting. I'm guessing i'll have to assume its the speed one always.

Any more replays or vods of this would be very helpful.
<3
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
October 22 2012 16:28 GMT
#206
Just got 6pooled, tried the flower of death, but I don't think I understand how to execute it. It didn't seem like I did much damage, and every time I stopped spamming on minerals to make a few lings, he killed off a few drones. Is there a trick to executing the flower thingy better, or is it just spamming as fast as possible on minerals and A-move then back?


Test it out in a game against easy AI or just after your next ladder game, hit 'stay in game' instead of leaving. You can also find unit testers that have mineral patches to test on.

Yes, when doing the flower of death it's hard to do anything else, like make some lings. You are going to just have to be extremely fast. If you need to do a couple other actions, just do a mineral walk real quick. So drone flower of death, flower of death, oh shit i have 3 larva and pool finished, mineral walk to furthest mineral patch or to the natural, execute the couple actions, go back to flower of death. With a bit of practice it should be easy to pull off, I've never heard of someone having trouble with it.

Losing a few drones also, really shouldnt be that bad, against an early pool. You should still be way ahead. I mean context really matters on that, I've seen cases where losing a few drones makes you lose the lead but really a case by case situation...


Been practicing holding 10pool speedling when my opponent just tries to take my natural down without losing lings and constantly reinforcing, and I am completely unable to stop it.
In the replay in the OP the guy doing the 10 pool basically waits 4-5 seconds after pool pops before building 2 sets of lings instead of 3, and often has idle larvae. This results in a hatch with 80% hp instead of sub 50% when it pops, and I cant seem to get the spine in my natural up in time and/or cant mine enough to produce enough lings since i have to defend the hatch with my drones.

Also, the "plain" 10pool vs the 10pool with speed reaction in the OP seems to differ alot, yet there is absolutely no way of me knowing if its the speed variation when it first hits without drone scouting. I'm guessing i'll have to assume its the speed one always.

Any more replays or vods of this would be very helpful.


You can tell if it's the speed variation because if it's gasless, he'll pull lots of drones right away OR he'll expand right after his 7th and 8th lings run out of his base.

It really doesn't mean too much which variation he's doing either. You saw lings go out, you know it's a 10 pool, so if you went hatch first, you should just be pumping lings, especially since you see no expansion. I'll try to get a better replay but 10 pool with gas is kind of rare since it is a terrible build, and 10 pool gasless autowins. If you could post your replay, that'd be helpful.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
October 22 2012 18:32 GMT
#207
On October 23 2012 01:28 Belial88 wrote:
It really doesn't mean too much which variation he's doing either. You saw lings go out, you know it's a 10 pool, so if you went hatch first, you should just be pumping lings, especially since you see no expansion. I'll try to get a better replay but 10 pool with gas is kind of rare since it is a terrible build, and 10 pool gasless autowins. If you could post your replay, that'd be helpful.
I wouldn't go that far, 10 pool with gas (just for speed, then pull off) gives you a big ling advantage over someone who opens 15 hatch into pure lings. If the 15 hatch player doesn't build spines before your speed finishes, you win. I say this only because I've seen it done in the GSL.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 20:02:44
October 22 2012 20:00 GMT
#208
Edit
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-10-22 20:05:44
October 22 2012 20:01 GMT
#209
, I really don't see any reason why you'd go 10p gas/speed instead of 10pgasless. Gasless is both a stronger attack vs hatch first, and safer economically if you just expand (like vs pool/hatch).

If you go hatch first vs 10p speedling, you should survive. You will have more larva and more economy, by the time speed finishes, you'll have queens and spines, and while speed is strong, 20 speedlings won't beat 20 slowlings defensively set up with 2queens 2 spines blocking the ramp. Speed takes a reeeally long time to finish, you should have 2 queens or spines to make it an even fight.

Could you tell me which GSL games you are referring to? Are you referring to nestea when he did it vs DRG and drg held by just massing lings and making queens/spines. I think it was only as close as it was because drg kept droning and didn't realize it was a 10 pool instead of 14pool. But 10p speed has very rarely been done, and 10p gasless has been done many more times and successfully. I mean kryix 6pooled in the gsl, its been done a couple times, but a long time ago, and it was an example of why you should never 6 pool.

The only way I see 10p gas beating hatch first is if the map is a huge 4 player map so you don't see the initial l ings and infer the pool timing or unable to see no expansion in time and you don't drone scout, in which case a gasless 10p would be stronger and safer in case the opponnent went pool/hatch or 14/14. I mean if you go 10p gas and the hatch first guy is planning to allin right away, they'll defend, whereas you just autolose to 10p with 8/12 drones pulled.

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JDub
Profile Joined December 2010
United States976 Posts
October 22 2012 21:56 GMT
#210
On October 23 2012 05:01 Belial88 wrote:
, I really don't see any reason why you'd go 10p gas/speed instead of 10pgasless. Gasless is both a stronger attack vs hatch first, and safer economically if you just expand (like vs pool/hatch).

If you go hatch first vs 10p speedling, you should survive. You will have more larva and more economy, by the time speed finishes, you'll have queens and spines, and while speed is strong, 20 speedlings won't beat 20 slowlings defensively set up with 2queens 2 spines blocking the ramp. Speed takes a reeeally long time to finish, you should have 2 queens or spines to make it an even fight.

Could you tell me which GSL games you are referring to? Are you referring to nestea when he did it vs DRG and drg held by just massing lings and making queens/spines. I think it was only as close as it was because drg kept droning and didn't realize it was a 10 pool instead of 14pool. But 10p speed has very rarely been done, and 10p gasless has been done many more times and successfully. I mean kryix 6pooled in the gsl, its been done a couple times, but a long time ago, and it was an example of why you should never 6 pool.

The only way I see 10p gas beating hatch first is if the map is a huge 4 player map so you don't see the initial l ings and infer the pool timing or unable to see no expansion in time and you don't drone scout, in which case a gasless 10p would be stronger and safer in case the opponnent went pool/hatch or 14/14. I mean if you go 10p gas and the hatch first guy is planning to allin right away, they'll defend, whereas you just autolose to 10p with 8/12 drones pulled.

I'm referring to this game Sniper v. Sen from GSL 2012 Season 1: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66862

In the game, Sen's 2nd queen does not come out in time to block the ramp, and Sen does not make any spines (if Sen had built spines, he would have been able to defend, but I'm unsure how many drones he would have lost doing so). Sen defends with 2 queens, lings, and drones, and loses everything to Sniper's speedlings. I'm not sure why you think the hatch first player will have an equal number of lings, as the 10pool player starts ling production earlier, and has a much faster queen.

As a note, if Sen had dropped 1-2 spines in his main, and Sniper had been droning up instead of massing lings, I feel like Sniper could have come out ahead. Also, I'm not sure why you say gasless 10p is stronger and safer against 14/14 or pool/hatch. With a gasless 10p against 14/14 how are you ever supposed to expand before getting speed?
Nurfie
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden24 Posts
October 23 2012 15:40 GMT
#211
On October 23 2012 01:28 Belial88 wrote:
You can tell if it's the speed variation because if it's gasless, he'll pull lots of drones right away OR he'll expand right after his 7th and 8th lings run out of his base.

It really doesn't mean too much which variation he's doing either. You saw lings go out, you know it's a 10 pool, so if you went hatch first, you should just be pumping lings, especially since you see no expansion. I'll try to get a better replay but 10 pool with gas is kind of rare since it is a terrible build, and 10 pool gasless autowins. If you could post your replay, that'd be helpful.


The OP says build double spine, double qeen and mass lings.
I feel I can either pull drones to defend my natural (pull as late as possible), and not afford this, or keep mining and the natural will die.
The issue is not really the speed (although it becomes an issue if my natural falls/is cancelled and i can't retake it fast enough) but instead just the early 6-12 lings focusing on killing my hatch. The hatch is dead before lings pop if I dont pull drones to defend.

I'm probably doing something wrong .

I'll try to get a decent replay up tonight or tomorrow.
roym899
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany426 Posts
October 23 2012 16:01 GMT
#212
Maybe I'm just pretty stupid, but how can I download these replays from the pictures? I can't click on them.
Girondelle
Profile Joined December 2010
France969 Posts
October 23 2012 16:18 GMT
#213
I really like the new edited OP, very comprehensive and easy to read, good job mate !
kiklion
Profile Joined April 2011
99 Posts
October 23 2012 16:25 GMT
#214
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main.


First off, I assume this is the game you are talking about:


I wonder about this, why would this definitely not work? Hatch first, 15/15 and 15/16, the pool completes before the hatch, though 15/16 is cutting it very close. Your drone making the spine in the natural will be on equal footing with their spine as you both had to wait for the creep. The 10 pooler's spines in the main go down before yours possibly can due to no pool yet. Further, since you can start a ling immediately when your natural pops as well, you can rally that ling to their spine in your natural and start wearing it down such that your spine will beat theirs without their units also attacking your spine.

I guess to simplify the question, I don't see how the 10 pooler making one of their 2 spines in your natural, stops them from also needing to split their units up to stop your spine anyway.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
October 23 2012 16:33 GMT
#215
On October 23 2012 06:56 JDub wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2012 05:01 Belial88 wrote:
, I really don't see any reason why you'd go 10p gas/speed instead of 10pgasless. Gasless is both a stronger attack vs hatch first, and safer economically if you just expand (like vs pool/hatch).

If you go hatch first vs 10p speedling, you should survive. You will have more larva and more economy, by the time speed finishes, you'll have queens and spines, and while speed is strong, 20 speedlings won't beat 20 slowlings defensively set up with 2queens 2 spines blocking the ramp. Speed takes a reeeally long time to finish, you should have 2 queens or spines to make it an even fight.

Could you tell me which GSL games you are referring to? Are you referring to nestea when he did it vs DRG and drg held by just massing lings and making queens/spines. I think it was only as close as it was because drg kept droning and didn't realize it was a 10 pool instead of 14pool. But 10p speed has very rarely been done, and 10p gasless has been done many more times and successfully. I mean kryix 6pooled in the gsl, its been done a couple times, but a long time ago, and it was an example of why you should never 6 pool.

The only way I see 10p gas beating hatch first is if the map is a huge 4 player map so you don't see the initial l ings and infer the pool timing or unable to see no expansion in time and you don't drone scout, in which case a gasless 10p would be stronger and safer in case the opponnent went pool/hatch or 14/14. I mean if you go 10p gas and the hatch first guy is planning to allin right away, they'll defend, whereas you just autolose to 10p with 8/12 drones pulled.

I'm referring to this game Sniper v. Sen from GSL 2012 Season 1: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66862

In the game, Sen's 2nd queen does not come out in time to block the ramp, and Sen does not make any spines (if Sen had built spines, he would have been able to defend, but I'm unsure how many drones he would have lost doing so). Sen defends with 2 queens, lings, and drones, and loses everything to Sniper's speedlings. I'm not sure why you think the hatch first player will have an equal number of lings, as the 10pool player starts ling production earlier, and has a much faster queen.

As a note, if Sen had dropped 1-2 spines in his main, and Sniper had been droning up instead of massing lings, I feel like Sniper could have come out ahead. Also, I'm not sure why you say gasless 10p is stronger and safer against 14/14 or pool/hatch. With a gasless 10p against 14/14 how are you ever supposed to expand before getting speed?


Mistakes Sen made:

- Getting speed first. Typically you get speed for scouting, and to maybe punish someone for being super greedy (what? no ling speed, no spine, no banelings by 40 supply?). If scouting is not an issue (because you know the guy is just far behind from all-inning) and greed is not an issue (you clearly know the opponent made lots of lings, speed, etc), then there's no reason to not go baneling nest first. I believe the common response these days when going hatch first vs 14/14, for example, is baneling nest before speed, for this reason. Sen would have had 6 banelings in time for that attack if he had went baneling nest first, easily (takes less time than speed, not to mention sen had 50 gas for a long time but not 100).

- Bad reactions. I don't think Sen knew exactly what to do, to be honest. He does not have an overlord to watch if Sniper is taking his natural or not (or maybe it's in range, it's in an odd position that doesn't cover the ramp). If someone going 10 pool does not plant an expansion immediately after his first lings stream out of their base, then you can tell they are going gas/all-in.

- Major supply block at 26/26. I think this was really a game-ending supply block. He did not even start this overlord until Sniper had lings streaming out, and by that time Sen had been supply blocked for over a minute. Sen was ahead in supply the entire early game, indicative of the lead he had (more supply, more drones). As can commonly happen against early pools, Sen forgot to macro and didn't make an overlord (you can see he also has idle larva throughout the first engagement as well). If Sen had started that overlord around 22,23, whatever, he easily would have had enough lings to hold.

- No spines. Sen was banking money, Sen saw no expansion on Sniper's end and knew he was all-inning, but didn't make a spine.

I believe Sen lost this game more through his own mistakes. Wolf also commented "why did he cancel his hatch when he could have used it to buy time".
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
October 23 2012 16:41 GMT
#216
Also, I'm not sure why you say gasless 10p is stronger and safer against 14/14 or pool/hatch. With a gasless 10p against 14/14 how are you ever supposed to expand before getting speed?


well against pool/hatch for sure. not sure on 14/14. Against pool/hatch you just take your expo right away, pool/hatch doesnt have speed anytime soon either. You can defend with banelings before speed in time.


Maybe I'm just pretty stupid, but how can I download these replays from the pictures? I can't click on them.


Fixed

On October 24 2012 01:25 kiklion wrote:
Show nested quote +
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main.


First off, I assume this is the game you are talking about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t0H-EG3kYg

I wonder about this, why would this definitely not work? Hatch first, 15/15 and 15/16, the pool completes before the hatch, though 15/16 is cutting it very close. Your drone making the spine in the natural will be on equal footing with their spine as you both had to wait for the creep. The 10 pooler's spines in the main go down before yours possibly can due to no pool yet. Further, since you can start a ling immediately when your natural pops as well, you can rally that ling to their spine in your natural and start wearing it down such that your spine will beat theirs without their units also attacking your spine.

I guess to simplify the question, I don't see how the 10 pooler making one of their 2 spines in your natural, stops them from also needing to split their units up to stop your spine anyway.


Yes, there have been a couple other instances where the hatch first player defended like that and won the game though. The 10 pooler should be able to deny you putting a spine down in your natural before they can. The 10 pooler really just wants to deny mining, but they do have to make sure something like morphing lings can't deny the spine. You might have to leave some lings as the 10 pooler by the morphing spine if you move your army somewhere further away, like chasing the hatch first's drones to his natural.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Nurfie
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden24 Posts
October 23 2012 21:27 GMT
#217
On October 24 2012 00:40 Nurfie wrote:
I'll try to get a decent replay up tonight or tomorrow.


http://drop.sc/267286
http://drop.sc/267285

How many drones should i pull, when should I pull them and whats the general idea with how to micro them?
I feel like if I do it perfectly I can force him to have to sacrifice 8-10 lings to kill the hatch, I'll be ahead in drones but he has mapcontrol and a hatch building behind it.

This hurts my brain
Thanks for helping out
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
November 05 2012 12:25 GMT
#218
I was working a bit on how to defeat with 100% guarantee 15 Hatch, and I stumbled on this guide.

Well, I took the liberty to take some ideas to put them in Liquipedia, I hope you don't mind =)

Here's the page on 10 Pool

By the way, if anything is wrong, please, don't hesitate to bash me!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
November 08 2012 07:02 GMT
#219
^ Very nice.

Send these workers by clicking on a mineral patch in the opponent's main. This way, your drones will Mineral Walk, and your zerglings will be able to run through your drones, and reach the opponent's base faster.


cool tip, i've never heard of that before.

yea guide looks good.

Nurfie i'll check out the reps soon, doing some hardware tweaking at the moment so can't watch this moment.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
fezvez
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
France3021 Posts
November 08 2012 07:50 GMT
#220
On November 08 2012 16:02 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +
Send these workers by clicking on a mineral patch in the opponent's main. This way, your drones will Mineral Walk, and your zerglings will be able to run through your drones, and reach the opponent's base faster.


cool tip, i've never heard of that before.


Glad to be of help!

Thanks for looking at it =)
Henk
Profile Joined March 2012
Netherlands578 Posts
December 30 2012 18:40 GMT
#221
I just faced a 6 pool, and you told me to use 4 drones to pick off building spines. But he built the spine in the dark area of my base, and I didn't see it until it was already finished (He picked it up to move it closer). What am I supposed to do then?

I killed his initial 8 lings and the spine, and I had 7 drones vs 5 of his. But he had more lings on the way, and I still lost.

Are you just supposed to check the dark area in your base in every zvz you play? (He was cross on entombed, I didn't see any of the lings he rallied or his scouting drone).
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