EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool! - Page 5
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Keilah
731 Posts
It sounds like 10(ish)-pool >> hatch first hatch first >> 6(ish)-pool so X >> 10(ish)-pool and then further, Y >> X So what are X and Y, and is ZvZ really this rock/paper/scissorsy? | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's sort of rock/paper/scissory, in that Hatch first >14/14 and 14 pools > 10 Pool > Hatch First, so let me put it this way: The Very Common Hatch First beats The Very Common 14/14 and 14 pools beats The Very Uncommon 10 Pool. If you are playing a random opponent, like on ladder, then I believe statistically, Hatch First is the better choice of builds. If you are playing in a tournament, or 'mind gaming' becomes a factor, like playing against a friend of yours whom you brag to all the time about your gosu hatch first build, then 14 pooling and 10 pooling become very viable builds. I also think that 14 pool, gas ~16-18 into defensive banes before speed may be a better build than 14/14, because it's ahead of 14/14 and if the opponent went hatch first then you aren't as behind, but whatever. At 3:41 there is 12 lings (2 in transit) in your base vs 15 drones, 1 spine just beginning and 2 sets of lings just beginning, I think there was a perfect opportunity here to win the game. He should have attacked well before your spine finished. Where the non-cancelled drones become critical is the fact that with a 6 pool you can win through trading and doing sufficent damage to their economy, it's not always an auto win if you hold it. I think you are wrong, as 18 drones will beat 14 lings inside a mineral line. If he put as much effort as is required to take down a morphing spine inside a mineral line, he would've lost too many lings, and it would've been totally worth having to cancel the spine and restart it for killing that many lings. I'd be happy to recreate the game if you think it's inadequate though. If a Masters Zerg is willing to recreate that replay, please PM me if you think you can do a better job. As for your statements on going into a macro game with 6 pool... I should have at least 15 drones in the end. Even if some catastrophe happens, I'll have at least half of my drones, or 9 of them. 9 Drones is far and ahead of 6. Even if you don't think this is 'auto-win', this is close enough to 'ahead' and that's all we're trying to do here. I'll PM you. | ||
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Lexiconman
United States22 Posts
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And you are aware, as I said in the chat, that I was going to be doing different things out right? And we both talked about how, in all of those games, we both made some huge mistakes in engagements. You are just a rude troll. I spend my time with you, I explained to you my preoccupations, and you also lead me to believe that we were testing things out, not that you didn't believe me. You PM me under false pretenses, ask to do goofy things, and then afterwards say "LOL PROOF". Then, you get really angry apparently because I did hold when doing something different, when you fucked up your micro, and took it as offensive. A waste of time, and the replays don't even mean anything when we were both making mistakes and trying out new things. Oh wait, I was, and you just said you were. You never made 'any point' either. You pm'd me saying you had some new pools you wanted to test out on me, and you never said you didn't believe what I had said, so I never made a point to take the games seriously. And this is why I posted about trolls in the OP messaging me on bnet. | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm going to respond to this and try and leave it at that, because really we're both just going to get peeved at each other and most likely can't have much of a mature conversation about it any more. What are you doing I don't even understand. You message me saying you are at work, then you message me later about how you are busy with your wife and cold dinner? I have no problem, you are the one that started getting angry and throwing out insults like 'douchebag' and 'rude'. You essentially never 'held' the early pool, in all cases you were either dead, or severely behind. The last game, on XNC you're behind on drones and tech (no queen). This is essentially game ending. My entire point which I said before here..... You mean the game where you totally fucked up the engagements so I stopped playing and started talking, even though I ended up with way more drones and money than you at the end? And I said we should re because you screwed up, and then you got angry because you took offense to me saying you screwed it up? You don't make a queen with a 6 pool. It cuts too much into lings and production. I don't know how in the world you can have the money for a queen, you obviously aren't doing the build correctly if you can afford 100% ling production, an overlord, and a queen, on 5 drones. .... is that you don't need to kill someone to win via early pool, you just need to cripple them. As soon as you engage and know you're not going to outright kill them you simply switch into drones and pull ahead. That's the downside of building spines - you're sacrificing econ (1 drone + 100 mins) to be safe from something that should be over by that point. Once more the whole frustrating part is you claiming the early pool ends when you hold it - it doesn't. You're right though, I did make mistakes, which resulted in me crippling you instead of killing you outright, but that should also tell you that when you're getting the best engagements that you could ever reasonably expect, and you're coming out crippled that you're not going to hold it. I come out with at least 6 drones, and I'm ahead. That's all this guide is about. You end up way ahead because of the cancelled hatch giving you a lot of money, such as letting you get a spine to ensure safety, or having more overlords, or et cetera. You are a huge troll. I already have much better replays in the replay section, of people who didn't fuck up the build like you did. I don't even know what build you were doing either, and you made it pretty clear you couldn't play well because you were playing on a phone or off a phone with no keyboard or something along those lines? I didn't take the games seriously either. I've been quite nice this entire time. I play these games because you ask for help, and you say you have a new build, and we play, and you say that you are doing something new, so I don't take the games serouisly because you said yourself you that I should handicap because you don't have a keyboard, or something like that (at work, worried about the boss coming in? im not even sure what you were talking about, and I was busy too so it didnt matter anyways for me). Then it's all LOL SEE YOU. Oh wait. You aren't interested in learning anything, or even developing a solution to your 'new pools' even if it isn't in any of the described responses I gave. Instead, you are a just a troll, and just want to post to make yourself look cool. Well great. Let's just take this thread down then, because Perseus here figured everything out! | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
(Hopefully I won't get a warning for being nice...) | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Whatever. Doesn't need to be a show for everyone. You know that what we were doing was goofing off - all the replays are already up in the replay section showing how to beat every pool. I already said infinite ling was one of the hardest 6 pools to beat, and we both said that we were just goofing off. So I beat you in one of the replays, but I guess the other 3 is what you are referring to? And in those 3 games, the ones that I even said I screwed it up? Yes. 6 pool beats a hatch first who screws up, and is given the impression that the games don't mean anything and were just testing. What kind of asshole are you that you take games like this as proof? You refuse to rematch the games, you just cherrypick a few games where you even told me that we were messing around, and that you couldn't play either. You are just a troll dude. Go away. Yes, when you tell me that you want me to test out certain things, and that it's a different build than one I actually already proved how to beat, and that we shouldn't play seriously, yes, you will win. It's quite sad how desperate you are. | ||
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barrykp
Ireland174 Posts
Maybe you should have used zerg players who 6/7 pool as their normal strategy, instead of coaching random master zergs into trying it against you. Perhaps you got lulled into a false sense of security about how easy it is to beat these openings. Losing 3/4 games because of 'mistakes' hardly inspires confidence: everyone makes mistakes - does that mean your guide is useless unless perfectly executed? Your opponent made mistakes too, but still won. It just begs more questions really  | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
noticed that myself | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Losing 3/4 games because of 'mistakes' hardly inspires confidence: everyone makes mistakes - does that mean your guide is useless unless perfectly executed? Your opponent made mistakes too, but still won. It just begs more questions really We had discussed that we would be trying different things out. If you watch the replays, you'll see that I actually do NOT do what I recommend in the guide, such as 'hold position' micro and using zerglings. Yes, you will lose 3/4 games if you don't follow the answers I give in this guide. Those replays are perfect examples of what not to do, and Perseus knows full well that I had said I would be testing out alternate responses, to see their effectiveness. You can watch the replays and see I don't do exactly what I say to do. I also do say in the guide that such a 6 pool is the hardest to beat. You are perfectly welcome to watch the replays and see how I responded completely different as recommended in the guide. It does not mean my guide is useless if not perfectly executed, it means my guide only works if you actually follow it. I was given the impression that the games we would be playing would be to test out alternate stuff, and so that's what I did. I didn't take them seriously at all, and he told me that he wasn't taking them seriously at all either. yeah belial will just get defensive when hes not right. just stop arguing with him theres no sense^^ noticed that myself I'm not the one that is being defensive. I have a troll in here who said he would like to try out some alternate strategies, and so I helped him out, and it was made clear that neither of us were playing seriously, then he posts the games as 'proof'. Then there's you, who I completely destroy in a game, but refuses to rematch because you know you are wrong. | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I was never given the impression that these were serious games, and you never told me you had any intention to posting these on TL to make yourself look cool. You never said these games were serious. Quite simply, you never said "Hey, I don't believe you, please show me a real hold". I even told you "Im going to try something different" - I'm quite sure you can see me say so in the replays you posted - and you never objected. You said you didn't like the replay in a TL PM. You also said in-game that you were doing a different 6 pool. I also said that I was going to try out different responses. Pretty straightforward. Hold position on spine? Quite frankly it's also really dumb, as I can then simply target down individual drones by clicking on them with even fewer losses before the spine comes up. You don't seem to understand that the aim isn't to kill you, it's to kill your drones and come out ahead. I don't mind at all if the spine comes up, because by that point I've already done what I want to achieve with the early pool. Yes. Now you get it. Nowhere in my guide do I recommend hold position on the spine. I said I was going to try Hold Position micro in our games, I did, it failed miserably, and then you post the games as 'proof' that you're better. Even if you kill half the drones, I still come out way ahead of you. You are just delusional. | ||
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Peleus
Australia420 Posts
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