You just need to a-move. Don't worry about the pool finishing, it's about holding with drones, not lings, just like a cannon rush, 2 rax, 2 gate, etc. Box over 4 of the drones real quick and then right click them on the spine. Eventually your pool will finish. Just make sure to macro up the entire time (make an overlord so you dont get blocked, continue pumping drones, start lings when pool pops).
Also, against single spine variations you can also just make 2 spines in your natural, stay in your mineral line with a belial's floral arrangement of death so he can't attack you (or just mineral walk, whatever). You can't do this against 2 spines because 2 spines will kill your hatch very quickly, but against single spines this is actually an acceptable way to hold. Then when spines pop, uproot them, and a-move with all the lings, drones, and possibly queen even, that you have.
Micro helps (hit hold position on hurt drones, mineral walk back hurt drones, etc) but it's really not necessary. He can't engage you, so if you a-move, he has to back off, which lets you just focus his spine down. Which forces him to come back to engage you. But he can't engage you because your force is too big.
The problem only arises if you wait too long and are too prudent, in which case that ling force will get big and that spine will finish. By a-moving as soon as he arrives, it allows you to take out that spine asap and/or lower his ling count. He can't get his spine up without taking significant losses. or actually all of his lings, because X-4 drones will overpower 8-10 lings.
On September 21 2012 09:58 Belial88 wrote: and what do you mean you always thought shokz was full of it? does he have some history? ive never even heard of him.
I had only heard of him because I knew he wrote up a guide and was charging people for it. Given the massive amount of free information on SC2 strategy on TL.net, I thought he must be full of it. I then decided to briefly look through his site, and the guide to defending 6pools sounded just like what I remembered your guide to be, and what do you know? Straight copy + paste.
Looking back on it now, learning to just drone up to 18 and a-move all my drones has helped me immensely in defending early pools. Thanks for the awesome guide and sorry that it's been fully copy+pasted with no link for credit.
On September 21 2012 09:58 Belial88 wrote: holy shit he's charging money for it. I have copyright over what I've posted, that's grounds for legal action.
-_-
edit: lol it's a straight rip, the parts about belial drone flower of death are straight in there. people must be like "who's belial? shouldnt it be shokz drone flower of death?"
and what do you mean you always thought shokz was full of it? does he have some history? ive never even heard of him.
He has been around since the beta/release. When SC2 was released, advertisements for all his guides were everywhere.
At the time, I torrented his guide, just to see what was in there.... and it was basically just a bunch of shit pulled from TL and pasted together.
I hope you can find a way to bring him some pain for ripping your work.
Just got 6pooled, tried the flower of death, but I don't think I understand how to execute it. It didn't seem like I did much damage, and every time I stopped spamming on minerals to make a few lings, he killed off a few drones. Is there a trick to executing the flower thingy better, or is it just spamming as fast as possible on minerals and A-move then back?
Been practicing holding 10pool speedling when my opponent just tries to take my natural down without losing lings and constantly reinforcing, and I am completely unable to stop it. In the replay in the OP the guy doing the 10 pool basically waits 4-5 seconds after pool pops before building 2 sets of lings instead of 3, and often has idle larvae. This results in a hatch with 80% hp instead of sub 50% when it pops, and I cant seem to get the spine in my natural up in time and/or cant mine enough to produce enough lings since i have to defend the hatch with my drones.
Also, the "plain" 10pool vs the 10pool with speed reaction in the OP seems to differ alot, yet there is absolutely no way of me knowing if its the speed variation when it first hits without drone scouting. I'm guessing i'll have to assume its the speed one always.
Any more replays or vods of this would be very helpful. <3
Just got 6pooled, tried the flower of death, but I don't think I understand how to execute it. It didn't seem like I did much damage, and every time I stopped spamming on minerals to make a few lings, he killed off a few drones. Is there a trick to executing the flower thingy better, or is it just spamming as fast as possible on minerals and A-move then back?
Test it out in a game against easy AI or just after your next ladder game, hit 'stay in game' instead of leaving. You can also find unit testers that have mineral patches to test on.
Yes, when doing the flower of death it's hard to do anything else, like make some lings. You are going to just have to be extremely fast. If you need to do a couple other actions, just do a mineral walk real quick. So drone flower of death, flower of death, oh shit i have 3 larva and pool finished, mineral walk to furthest mineral patch or to the natural, execute the couple actions, go back to flower of death. With a bit of practice it should be easy to pull off, I've never heard of someone having trouble with it.
Losing a few drones also, really shouldnt be that bad, against an early pool. You should still be way ahead. I mean context really matters on that, I've seen cases where losing a few drones makes you lose the lead but really a case by case situation...
Been practicing holding 10pool speedling when my opponent just tries to take my natural down without losing lings and constantly reinforcing, and I am completely unable to stop it. In the replay in the OP the guy doing the 10 pool basically waits 4-5 seconds after pool pops before building 2 sets of lings instead of 3, and often has idle larvae. This results in a hatch with 80% hp instead of sub 50% when it pops, and I cant seem to get the spine in my natural up in time and/or cant mine enough to produce enough lings since i have to defend the hatch with my drones.
Also, the "plain" 10pool vs the 10pool with speed reaction in the OP seems to differ alot, yet there is absolutely no way of me knowing if its the speed variation when it first hits without drone scouting. I'm guessing i'll have to assume its the speed one always.
Any more replays or vods of this would be very helpful.
You can tell if it's the speed variation because if it's gasless, he'll pull lots of drones right away OR he'll expand right after his 7th and 8th lings run out of his base.
It really doesn't mean too much which variation he's doing either. You saw lings go out, you know it's a 10 pool, so if you went hatch first, you should just be pumping lings, especially since you see no expansion. I'll try to get a better replay but 10 pool with gas is kind of rare since it is a terrible build, and 10 pool gasless autowins. If you could post your replay, that'd be helpful.
On October 23 2012 01:28 Belial88 wrote: It really doesn't mean too much which variation he's doing either. You saw lings go out, you know it's a 10 pool, so if you went hatch first, you should just be pumping lings, especially since you see no expansion. I'll try to get a better replay but 10 pool with gas is kind of rare since it is a terrible build, and 10 pool gasless autowins. If you could post your replay, that'd be helpful.
I wouldn't go that far, 10 pool with gas (just for speed, then pull off) gives you a big ling advantage over someone who opens 15 hatch into pure lings. If the 15 hatch player doesn't build spines before your speed finishes, you win. I say this only because I've seen it done in the GSL.
, I really don't see any reason why you'd go 10p gas/speed instead of 10pgasless. Gasless is both a stronger attack vs hatch first, and safer economically if you just expand (like vs pool/hatch).
If you go hatch first vs 10p speedling, you should survive. You will have more larva and more economy, by the time speed finishes, you'll have queens and spines, and while speed is strong, 20 speedlings won't beat 20 slowlings defensively set up with 2queens 2 spines blocking the ramp. Speed takes a reeeally long time to finish, you should have 2 queens or spines to make it an even fight.
Could you tell me which GSL games you are referring to? Are you referring to nestea when he did it vs DRG and drg held by just massing lings and making queens/spines. I think it was only as close as it was because drg kept droning and didn't realize it was a 10 pool instead of 14pool. But 10p speed has very rarely been done, and 10p gasless has been done many more times and successfully. I mean kryix 6pooled in the gsl, its been done a couple times, but a long time ago, and it was an example of why you should never 6 pool.
The only way I see 10p gas beating hatch first is if the map is a huge 4 player map so you don't see the initial l ings and infer the pool timing or unable to see no expansion in time and you don't drone scout, in which case a gasless 10p would be stronger and safer in case the opponnent went pool/hatch or 14/14. I mean if you go 10p gas and the hatch first guy is planning to allin right away, they'll defend, whereas you just autolose to 10p with 8/12 drones pulled.
On October 23 2012 05:01 Belial88 wrote: , I really don't see any reason why you'd go 10p gas/speed instead of 10pgasless. Gasless is both a stronger attack vs hatch first, and safer economically if you just expand (like vs pool/hatch).
If you go hatch first vs 10p speedling, you should survive. You will have more larva and more economy, by the time speed finishes, you'll have queens and spines, and while speed is strong, 20 speedlings won't beat 20 slowlings defensively set up with 2queens 2 spines blocking the ramp. Speed takes a reeeally long time to finish, you should have 2 queens or spines to make it an even fight.
Could you tell me which GSL games you are referring to? Are you referring to nestea when he did it vs DRG and drg held by just massing lings and making queens/spines. I think it was only as close as it was because drg kept droning and didn't realize it was a 10 pool instead of 14pool. But 10p speed has very rarely been done, and 10p gasless has been done many more times and successfully. I mean kryix 6pooled in the gsl, its been done a couple times, but a long time ago, and it was an example of why you should never 6 pool.
The only way I see 10p gas beating hatch first is if the map is a huge 4 player map so you don't see the initial l ings and infer the pool timing or unable to see no expansion in time and you don't drone scout, in which case a gasless 10p would be stronger and safer in case the opponnent went pool/hatch or 14/14. I mean if you go 10p gas and the hatch first guy is planning to allin right away, they'll defend, whereas you just autolose to 10p with 8/12 drones pulled.
In the game, Sen's 2nd queen does not come out in time to block the ramp, and Sen does not make any spines (if Sen had built spines, he would have been able to defend, but I'm unsure how many drones he would have lost doing so). Sen defends with 2 queens, lings, and drones, and loses everything to Sniper's speedlings. I'm not sure why you think the hatch first player will have an equal number of lings, as the 10pool player starts ling production earlier, and has a much faster queen.
As a note, if Sen had dropped 1-2 spines in his main, and Sniper had been droning up instead of massing lings, I feel like Sniper could have come out ahead. Also, I'm not sure why you say gasless 10p is stronger and safer against 14/14 or pool/hatch. With a gasless 10p against 14/14 how are you ever supposed to expand before getting speed?
On October 23 2012 01:28 Belial88 wrote: You can tell if it's the speed variation because if it's gasless, he'll pull lots of drones right away OR he'll expand right after his 7th and 8th lings run out of his base.
It really doesn't mean too much which variation he's doing either. You saw lings go out, you know it's a 10 pool, so if you went hatch first, you should just be pumping lings, especially since you see no expansion. I'll try to get a better replay but 10 pool with gas is kind of rare since it is a terrible build, and 10 pool gasless autowins. If you could post your replay, that'd be helpful.
The OP says build double spine, double qeen and mass lings. I feel I can either pull drones to defend my natural (pull as late as possible), and not afford this, or keep mining and the natural will die. The issue is not really the speed (although it becomes an issue if my natural falls/is cancelled and i can't retake it fast enough) but instead just the early 6-12 lings focusing on killing my hatch. The hatch is dead before lings pop if I dont pull drones to defend.
I'm probably doing something wrong .
I'll try to get a decent replay up tonight or tomorrow.
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main.
First off, I assume this is the game you are talking about:
I wonder about this, why would this definitely not work? Hatch first, 15/15 and 15/16, the pool completes before the hatch, though 15/16 is cutting it very close. Your drone making the spine in the natural will be on equal footing with their spine as you both had to wait for the creep. The 10 pooler's spines in the main go down before yours possibly can due to no pool yet. Further, since you can start a ling immediately when your natural pops as well, you can rally that ling to their spine in your natural and start wearing it down such that your spine will beat theirs without their units also attacking your spine.
I guess to simplify the question, I don't see how the 10 pooler making one of their 2 spines in your natural, stops them from also needing to split their units up to stop your spine anyway.
On October 23 2012 05:01 Belial88 wrote: , I really don't see any reason why you'd go 10p gas/speed instead of 10pgasless. Gasless is both a stronger attack vs hatch first, and safer economically if you just expand (like vs pool/hatch).
If you go hatch first vs 10p speedling, you should survive. You will have more larva and more economy, by the time speed finishes, you'll have queens and spines, and while speed is strong, 20 speedlings won't beat 20 slowlings defensively set up with 2queens 2 spines blocking the ramp. Speed takes a reeeally long time to finish, you should have 2 queens or spines to make it an even fight.
Could you tell me which GSL games you are referring to? Are you referring to nestea when he did it vs DRG and drg held by just massing lings and making queens/spines. I think it was only as close as it was because drg kept droning and didn't realize it was a 10 pool instead of 14pool. But 10p speed has very rarely been done, and 10p gasless has been done many more times and successfully. I mean kryix 6pooled in the gsl, its been done a couple times, but a long time ago, and it was an example of why you should never 6 pool.
The only way I see 10p gas beating hatch first is if the map is a huge 4 player map so you don't see the initial l ings and infer the pool timing or unable to see no expansion in time and you don't drone scout, in which case a gasless 10p would be stronger and safer in case the opponnent went pool/hatch or 14/14. I mean if you go 10p gas and the hatch first guy is planning to allin right away, they'll defend, whereas you just autolose to 10p with 8/12 drones pulled.
In the game, Sen's 2nd queen does not come out in time to block the ramp, and Sen does not make any spines (if Sen had built spines, he would have been able to defend, but I'm unsure how many drones he would have lost doing so). Sen defends with 2 queens, lings, and drones, and loses everything to Sniper's speedlings. I'm not sure why you think the hatch first player will have an equal number of lings, as the 10pool player starts ling production earlier, and has a much faster queen.
As a note, if Sen had dropped 1-2 spines in his main, and Sniper had been droning up instead of massing lings, I feel like Sniper could have come out ahead. Also, I'm not sure why you say gasless 10p is stronger and safer against 14/14 or pool/hatch. With a gasless 10p against 14/14 how are you ever supposed to expand before getting speed?
Mistakes Sen made:
- Getting speed first. Typically you get speed for scouting, and to maybe punish someone for being super greedy (what? no ling speed, no spine, no banelings by 40 supply?). If scouting is not an issue (because you know the guy is just far behind from all-inning) and greed is not an issue (you clearly know the opponent made lots of lings, speed, etc), then there's no reason to not go baneling nest first. I believe the common response these days when going hatch first vs 14/14, for example, is baneling nest before speed, for this reason. Sen would have had 6 banelings in time for that attack if he had went baneling nest first, easily (takes less time than speed, not to mention sen had 50 gas for a long time but not 100).
- Bad reactions. I don't think Sen knew exactly what to do, to be honest. He does not have an overlord to watch if Sniper is taking his natural or not (or maybe it's in range, it's in an odd position that doesn't cover the ramp). If someone going 10 pool does not plant an expansion immediately after his first lings stream out of their base, then you can tell they are going gas/all-in.
- Major supply block at 26/26. I think this was really a game-ending supply block. He did not even start this overlord until Sniper had lings streaming out, and by that time Sen had been supply blocked for over a minute. Sen was ahead in supply the entire early game, indicative of the lead he had (more supply, more drones). As can commonly happen against early pools, Sen forgot to macro and didn't make an overlord (you can see he also has idle larva throughout the first engagement as well). If Sen had started that overlord around 22,23, whatever, he easily would have had enough lings to hold.
- No spines. Sen was banking money, Sen saw no expansion on Sniper's end and knew he was all-inning, but didn't make a spine.
I believe Sen lost this game more through his own mistakes. Wolf also commented "why did he cancel his hatch when he could have used it to buy time".
Also, I'm not sure why you say gasless 10p is stronger and safer against 14/14 or pool/hatch. With a gasless 10p against 14/14 how are you ever supposed to expand before getting speed?
well against pool/hatch for sure. not sure on 14/14. Against pool/hatch you just take your expo right away, pool/hatch doesnt have speed anytime soon either. You can defend with banelings before speed in time.
Maybe I'm just pretty stupid, but how can I download these replays from the pictures? I can't click on them.
For a long time, considered the way to beat Hatch First with a BO win, and recently, seen as beatable. Well, what recent pros have been doing, like Jaedong vs Soulkey, would actually not work if the 10 pooler puts a spine in the natural of the opponent asap, and then the 2nd spine in the main.
I wonder about this, why would this definitely not work? Hatch first, 15/15 and 15/16, the pool completes before the hatch, though 15/16 is cutting it very close. Your drone making the spine in the natural will be on equal footing with their spine as you both had to wait for the creep. The 10 pooler's spines in the main go down before yours possibly can due to no pool yet. Further, since you can start a ling immediately when your natural pops as well, you can rally that ling to their spine in your natural and start wearing it down such that your spine will beat theirs without their units also attacking your spine.
I guess to simplify the question, I don't see how the 10 pooler making one of their 2 spines in your natural, stops them from also needing to split their units up to stop your spine anyway.
Yes, there have been a couple other instances where the hatch first player defended like that and won the game though. The 10 pooler should be able to deny you putting a spine down in your natural before they can. The 10 pooler really just wants to deny mining, but they do have to make sure something like morphing lings can't deny the spine. You might have to leave some lings as the 10 pooler by the morphing spine if you move your army somewhere further away, like chasing the hatch first's drones to his natural.
How many drones should i pull, when should I pull them and whats the general idea with how to micro them? I feel like if I do it perfectly I can force him to have to sacrifice 8-10 lings to kill the hatch, I'll be ahead in drones but he has mapcontrol and a hatch building behind it.
Send these workers by clicking on a mineral patch in the opponent's main. This way, your drones will Mineral Walk, and your zerglings will be able to run through your drones, and reach the opponent's base faster.
cool tip, i've never heard of that before.
yea guide looks good.
Nurfie i'll check out the reps soon, doing some hardware tweaking at the moment so can't watch this moment.
Send these workers by clicking on a mineral patch in the opponent's main. This way, your drones will Mineral Walk, and your zerglings will be able to run through your drones, and reach the opponent's base faster.
EPT
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