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I really like this guide, (seriously saved my life, I had to take a break from SC2 after losing to 6 6pools in a row on the ladder, now I feel like I know how to deal with it) but there's a few scenarios that I don't see covered here that I wonder if you could address:
1. Any 6pool + drones (either 2 left or all drones) variation, opponent ignores your drones and goes straight for the spawning pool, possibly guarding his lings with his drones, but maybe not. It seems like this is very favorable for him - his lings have their backs to the spawning pool, so you either engage them unfavorably or you lose your pool. Is this a non-issue? i.e. if he does this, do you just let him hack at your pool and keep mining knowing that your pool will finish before it dies, put down a spine and lings when it finishes, and win? Or is there a specific way to engage this?
2. Infinite ling 6pool with the same situation - he decides he's going to dps your pool down, but when you get close with drones he fights you. It seems like you'd have to pull most or all of your drones to deal with this, putting you way behind. Again, nonissue? Or something to be concerned with?
2. Entombed valley. God do I hate this map. What is the optimal way to scout? I typically send an overlord to a close position, my second overlord cross-map, and a drone to the last close position, but even this seems fairly useless, as I don't believe the first overlord gets there in time to see a 6- or 10-pool. Should I just opt for a 14-gas 14-pool on this map instead?
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1. Any 6pool + drones (either 2 left or all drones) variation, opponent ignores your drones and goes straight for the spawning pool, possibly guarding his lings with his drones, but maybe not. It seems like this is very favorable for him - his lings have their backs to the spawning pool, so you either engage them unfavorably or you lose your pool. Is this a non-issue? i.e. if he does this, do you just let him hack at your pool and keep mining knowing that your pool will finish before it dies, put down a spine and lings when it finishes, and win? Or is there a specific way to engage this?
Your scouting worker is already in his base, morphing into a spine. The drone all-inner should be ignoring your drones (of course except to kill mismicro'd ones and to deny mining) and going straight for the pool. They can't take down a 15h/15p before the pool finishes. It only needs to be alive for a split second so you can morph that spine and make lings.
You really don't need a spine and that scouting worker 90% of the time. But here's the issue, if you run into someone good enough to surround your eggs:
- If you can get 4+ lings out, your golden. Don't need a spine
- If you can only get 2 or less lings out, you are screwed. By making a spine and NOT killing off his hatch, so you can keep it on creep indefinitely, you can force a stalemate in a situation you might otherwise lose.
I'll put it this way, if you only got 0-2 lings out:
If you made that spine, and didn't kill of his hatch, he won't attack you, and you will force a stalemate in a game you would otherwise lose.
If you didn't make that spine, he can just end the game and win.
If you have 1-3 lings, it's really quite ambiguous, and ALL comes down to micro. You can try to rely on something like running straight for his last remaining building (a spine) and kill it before he kills your 15 drones or extractor off, which honestly is much better odds for you. But the difference is that it's not guaranteed, and with a spine, it's YOUR choice.
That's why you always need a drone scout in ZvZ. If you want to avoid losing to drone all-in 6/7/8 pools with hatch first. What time you send out that drone scout, from 10 to 18, really doesn't matter.
As soon as he gets in your base, you just run away. If your pro, you can defensively drone stack and use mineral walking micro so you can mine with like 3 of the workers and mineral walk the rest to protect them, so you can squeeze out more money or bait him into a bad engagement. Basically, a spine forces an area of non-engagement. But until that spine is up, you can keep mining. Just get out of there before it's up. But yea, basically, just go straight toward his base when all his drones arrive in yours.
What I'm getting at here, is a very glorified but old and time-tested strategy of: Run away until your shit rallies together, then attack back. A spinecrawler is just a guarantee for you, insurance, in case you fuck up, or don't get 2+ lings out. Really, if you are good at your micro, you don't have to send a scouting worker at all, and can just use an extractor. But it's a lot easier, SO much easier - not only easier, but guaranteed win, whereas not making that spine really makes it about how many lings can you get out (you can reliably get 2 lings out, but not 4).
TLDR: He cant kill your morphing pool before it's finished for at least a split second, enough for you to make that spine and morph lings.
2. Infinite ling 6pool with the same situation - he decides he's going to dps your pool down, but when you get close with drones he fights you. It seems like you'd have to pull most or all of your drones to deal with this, putting you way behind. Again, nonissue? Or something to be concerned with?
Your drones should overwhelm his lings. Don't be afraid. That's why you placed your pool in a smart location.
If you placed it like 'simcity', blocking off a side of your mineral line (say, like would be ideal if you were trying to guard against banelings running into your mineral line), there's really no way for you to win, he can just attack your pool and every time you pool drones you just lose too much mining time and eventually you either starve to death or lose your pool..
But if you placed it smart enough, like behind the mineral line, any time he goes to attack it, you should be able to get a complete surround on his lings and easily kill them all.
And yea, it really doesn't matter anyways. You are making a spine. They won't kill the pool before your spine is up to protect it.
2. Entombed valley. God do I hate this map. What is the optimal way to scout? I typically send an overlord to a close position, my second overlord cross-map, and a drone to the last close position, but even this seems fairly useless, as I don't believe the first overlord gets there in time to see a 6- or 10-pool. Should I just opt for a 14-gas 14-pool on this map instead?
Why have you not veto'd this map?
On 4 player maps, you have 2 choices. Send an overlord the popular route, or where you think your opponent would send it if he spawned at that location (up/down routes on entombed, for example), so you can rule it out with your drone scout and go another way, or send it in the middle of the map, and redirect it when your scouting drone figures out where he spawned.
I did that for the longest time on TDA and other 4 player maps. Just struck me as stupid that everyone would send their overlords one way or another and 66.6% of the time their overlord just be completely screwed and on the wrong side of the map, when scouting overlords give just as much information to you as it does to your opponent (i mean if it's super close air spawn like metal, obviously air scout their base). On large 4 player maps, send your first overlord to the middle of the map. 66.6% of the time, your overlord will be in a better location closer to their base then where it would have been otherwise, and you are only giving information to your opponent.
Anyways I stated in the guide you need to drone scout. Don't get mad at me when not following my guide gets you killed :X.
Yea you won't see a 10 pool in time, just gg out basically.
Or, do what I've been doing recently.....:
10 drone scout!!
At 10 supply (earlier or later in the 10'th supply of time, ie right after making 10/10 drone to just before overlord pops), send a drone out. Even on the largest of maps, it will arrive before you plant a 14 hatch (so if you go 15 hatch, you can just send a drone when overlord pops), so you can avoid 10 pool shenanigans. If they went 2:00 or later pool (14 pool), just hatch first with the lead, and if they go hatch first, use the drone to block their hatch from going down, and take a much greedier pool and gas!
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On May 09 2012 00:38 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +2. Entombed valley. God do I hate this map. What is the optimal way to scout? I typically send an overlord to a close position, my second overlord cross-map, and a drone to the last close position, but even this seems fairly useless, as I don't believe the first overlord gets there in time to see a 6- or 10-pool. Should I just opt for a 14-gas 14-pool on this map instead? Why have you not veto'd this map? On 4 player maps, you have 2 choices. Send an overlord the popular route, or where you think your opponent would send it if he spawned at that location (up/down routes on entombed, for example), so you can rule it out with your drone scout and go another way, or send it in the middle of the map, and redirect it when your scouting drone figures out where he spawned. I did that for the longest time on TDA and other 4 player maps. Just struck me as stupid that everyone would send their overlords one way or another and 66.6% of the time their overlord just be completely screwed and on the wrong side of the map, when scouting overlords give just as much information to you as it does to your opponent (i mean if it's super close air spawn like metal, obviously air scout their base). On large 4 player maps, send your first overlord to the middle of the map. 66.6% of the time, your overlord will be in a better location closer to their base then where it would have been otherwise, and you are only giving information to your opponent. Anyways I stated in the guide you need to drone scout. Don't get mad at me when not following my guide gets you killed :X. Yea you won't see a 10 pool in time, just gg out basically. Or, do what I've been doing recently.....: 10 drone scout!!At 10 supply (earlier or later in the 10'th supply of time, ie right after making 10/10 drone to just before overlord pops), send a drone out. Even on the largest of maps, it will arrive before you plant a 14 hatch (so if you go 15 hatch, you can just send a drone when overlord pops), so you can avoid 10 pool shenanigans. If they went 2:00 or later pool (14 pool), just hatch first with the lead, and if they go hatch first, use the drone to block their hatch from going down, and take a much greedier pool and gas!
The only map I have vetoed right now is TDA, I might start vetoing Entombed as well. I've found it to be god-awful for zerg in every matchup - T and P take a free 3rd base, Z's 4th is hard to defend.
What I'm saying is that I don't know that a 10 drone scout will necessarily spot a 6pool/10 pool before it is too late to stop it - or rather, I'm asking if it is guaranteed to do so. I'm completely ok with 10 drone scouting on a 4player map like that, since while it can put me at a disadvantage vs a greedy build, I'm comfortable playing with that small disadvantage. So is it the case that if I find him last with the 10 drone scout, I'll still be able to stop a 6 pool? (Understanding that you mentioned that 10p hard counters 15 hatch even if it's scouted.)
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On 2 player maps or 2+2 it is.
If you are going hatch first, it shouldn't put you at a disadvantage. vs 6-11 pool you can not throw down your hatch and come out ahead with a 14 pool, with 14/14 you can hatch first and comeout ahead, against a hatch firster you can just be greedier with your pool and gas.
Most pros dont drone scout, but I've noticed stephano 10 drone scouts in zvz, and has avoided multiple 10 pool losses as he usually goes hatch first.
10p hard counter 15 hatch if you throw down the hatch and already droned up to 15ish, and they react correctyl (like you can possibly hold 10 pool speedling, but not 10 pool 8 drone pull). If you catch them 10 pooling before you throw down the 10 pool, you can avoid hatch firsting against it and losing.
On 4 player maps builds like 10 pool are less common due to him having to scout to make it work. That's what makes up for not being able to drone scout in time.
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What are the timings of the pools ? How do we recognize them ? I'm having trouble... Sometimes i think i'm getting 6 pooled, but its a 8 pool with 2 drones pull to put spine... Things like this... :/
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2:00+ is 14+ pool. So when your 10 drone scout arrives at 2:00, basically, or right before you plant your 14 hatch, and the pool is nearly complete, that's a 10 pool. If it's clearly complete, it's 6/7/8 pool. If it's just planted and still in the red, it's 14+ pool.
As for understanding if he threw it at 6/7/8, that's a nuance that you can't really pick up until you are higher level, and it's honestly not that important until you learn to be greedier. Against certain variations of pools, you can actually keep your hatch, but I don't go over that.
All you need to know is:
1. Is he pulling all his drones?
2. Is there a spine?
And you can figure out what he's doing, and the appropriate response. You can tell if it's an 8 pool with 2 drones to put a spine, if you see him put down 2 spines, or pull 2 drones. It should be pretty obvious when you see 2 spines being made in your base :X
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[B]
And you can figure out what he's doing, and the appropriate response. You can tell if it's an 8 pool with 2 drones to put a spine, if you see him put down 2 spines, or pull 2 drones. It should be pretty obvious when you see 2 spines being made in your base :X
Ya, and currently i loose everytime against this cheese... Infinite lings + 2 spines... Sooooo hard. tt
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It's not infinite lings if there's 2 spines behind it. You have a very limited amount of minerals with a 6 pool, and getting the pool later (7, 8) buys around 100 minerals with a lot of time.
So like an 8 pool can have lots of lings and 2 spines, but it will be so late that your pool will have been started by the time he comes at you.
Really you just need to use Belial's Bosswalk against doublespine.
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Thanks for writing this very detailed guide. I'm waiting for screens to load at work and yes, it literally has taken the 40 minutes it took to read this entire guide in-depth.
I now realize that half the times I lost to early Pools was because I responded inappropriately. Also, I never fully realised how powerful denying mining truly is versus getting Drone kills - one reason why my early Pools tend to fail horribly.
Anyways, the 7Pool double Spine always scared me the most. I can't wait to try out the BossWalk  If anyone who's read this wants to practice these strats, PM me.
+ Show Spoiler +I agree about lower league guys not knowing how to early Pool. I kept trying a 10 Pool vs a Random Master on Xel'Naga who 15 Hatch'd every game and I still lost every game I also finally understand your beef with that Moose guy. It's kinda funny.
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who's moose? im sorry i rarely remember posters by name
glad you like the guide. sorry it's so long, I plan to write a condensed guide when I write my zvz guide.
anyways, i rarely have to use the information in this guide anymore.
I go Hatch first 10 drone scout in ZvZ - if someone goes 6-12 pool, I just respond with a 15 pool and basically autowin with the lead. If they go 14/14, I'm ahead, and if they try to go hatch first I block it with the scouting worker, and just take a much much greedier gas and pool, since I see when they took their's. I don't know why doesn't everyone do this in zvz, it seems to me the overwhelming majority of pro zvz loses because of 10 pool vs 14 pool or 10 pool vs hatch first, just avoid losing to such silly strats with a 10 drone scout.
However, stephano and violet do this hatch first 10 drone scout... so maybe it'll catch on.
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Do you think all of your guide still applies to the current metagame? Do you think that this guide applies to even the highest level of SC2? I was talking to a top GM about 6 pools and I mentioned your guide and he scoffed at me and said that you aren't ranked high enough for people to take this guide seriously and doubted that it was up to date with the current metagame. I am just wondering if you have anything to say about that.
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Do you think all of your guide still applies to the current metagame? Do you think that this guide applies to even the highest level of SC2? I was talking to a top GM about 6 pools and I mentioned your guide and he scoffed at me and said that you aren't ranked high enough for people to take this guide seriously and doubted that it was up to date with the current metagame. I am just wondering if you have anything to say about that.
1. Yes all my guides are up to date, as long as I'm an active poster. I constantly update all of my guides, I just don't post or keep a changelog because I don't shamelessly bump my threads whenever it falls off the front page like this guy. In my ZvT Guide, I just added a section on baneling busting, as well as a VOD for it, as well as added some new information in regards to recent metagame usage of ultralisks, new metagame builds like zenio's 3 hatch baneling bust and a replay of him doing it vs MC succesffully in my zvp guide, as well as basic edits like cleaning up and clarifying the section on 2 base muta and 2 base infestor play in zvp.
I also monitor new changes in the metagame, and right now I'm keeping an especially close eye on ZENEXsuhosin, who goes infestors immediately when going fast third in zvp, despite when I say that I 'recommend against' getting infestors quickly against 2 base toss (except against double stargate), as well as slayers_yugioh and coca who goes 2 base infestor every zvp. So far, suhosin either went infestors against double stargate, or lost, and yugioh and coca do horribly in zvp, and have so far lost every time they did it, and the core of their builds were the same as 2 base infestor as it was when it was more popular almost a year ago, as a 2 base timing attack that needs to do damage or else it will get rolled by macro toss who push out with colossi. But they obviously have success with it if they were going to use it in the GSL, and I hear that such 2 base play is really popular nowadays on the ladder in KR suddenly, so like I said, I'm keeping a close eye on these players.
2. Yes, my guides apply to all levels of sc2. My guides are all very basic. In the case of this guide, I actually practiced with a GM (and this was back when I was diamond I believe, i think i hit masters, dropped back due to inactivity, then came back to masters, right around when i published this guide), as you can see in the replay section. As in the case of my ZvT/ZvP guides, they are just basics. There is no build I'm pushing, no particular strategy or approach to the match-up that I'm advocating. They are just comprehensive builds - how to all-in, how to do everything, how to scout, and how to play a standard game, which is extremely rare in a guide these days on TL (every guide is just how to do a bad all-in it seems).
Whether your GM friend likes me or not doesn't matter, not only does he already know everything in my guides, he follows my guides exactly. My guides are just that 'standard'. Obviously, my own opinion comes out in these guides, but I try to make clear whenever it's my opinion rather than standard play. If he has any disagreements, he's free to post in my guides, I've been wrong many times been before, and been quite open about it. He is completely right, I'm a low level player, right now I'm a 900+ points Masters player on NA, so I'm just some random ladder scrub that's absolute crap.
But like I said - these guides are just the basics. it's not so much they are 'applicable' at the highest levels of play, it's more like that this is what is going on in all high level games, at they're core. While I try to go in-depth as much as I can, all 3 match-ups have a very general gameflow - ie zvp Toss takes their natural, Zerg takes a third, zerg defends pressure with roach/ling, then toss tries to take a third against roach/ling with sentries and tech (immortals, blink, or stargate, but can be more or less), then zerg tries to get hive tech before the 3+ colossi push comes, then zerg pushes back while toss gets a mothership, then zerg pushes back very carefully before mass carriers are out, et cetera. There's just a very predictable game flow - it's not like zvp is a matter of "is he going stalkers or is he going archons?!?!" it's "he's going immortal/sentry/stalker/immortal/zealot, and if he does anything else at the 12:00 mark, he'll die to me".
These guides are more like observations of the game. The metagame does change, but these guides aren't so radical as to not account for that. These guides are basic - if suddenly DTs became popular in ZvP, that wouldn't really change the guide at all - the gameflow is the same, I talk about how to handle DTs and that will be the same. If something as radical, as, say, the mothership + archon toilet being uncovered, sure, I'll add, but it doesn't make the guide 'outdated' or wrong by any means, it just makes the guide what it always was - a comprehensive guide about everything, but obviously not EVERYTHING.
3. Your friend is completely right. He's more than welcome to post in my threads or PM me, I'd love to improve the guides to meet a GM's standards. I understand that generally, it would actually cost money to use the time of such skilled players. I wouldn't mind buying a lesson or working something out where we could improve the guides though, maybe if enough people like my guides, we can start something like chipping in a penny in a pot so the TL community could come up with an uber-guide.
I do not disagree with him at all, but I think his analysis of my guides are a little rough. I wonder if he's actually read through the entirety of my guides, and what is it that he actually disagrees with. I'm not posing anything new in these guides, this is all information all high level players already know. I'm not challenging anything established with these guides, it's just the basics, the standards of the game. There is nothing really arguable in my guides. This guide right here, was the most arguable of my guides, and you can see through the pages how I was proven correct, with no shortage of evidence and testing.
EDIT: fuck I wrote a long ass post, deleted it because it was way too long and was going to rewrite it really short, and it's just even longer.
tldr The guides are up to date. The guides keep up with the metagame. I update them as long as I'm an active poster, and I'm very active. The guides are just the basics, there is nothing arguable in my guides, whether your friend likes me or not, he follows the guides because it's just the standards that everyone does and covers everything you could do so it covers all styles as well. Yes, I'm quite low level, but there is nothing arguable in my guides. I say a lot of stupid shit, but not in my guides. I keep the controversial, opinionated thoughts out of my guides, I make sure of that. [/b]
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Woa, thanks for the in-depth reply! Yeah, I got into an argument with him because he was insisting that even Koreans die to 6 pools if they go hatch first, so there must not be any way to defend against them. I tried to explain that just because Koreans haven't figured it out doesn't mean it's not possible and mentioned that you had written this guide detailing how to defend against it.
I do have a question about defending 6 pools that I couldn't find the answer to in your guide. It seems like infinite ling and drone+spine can look pretty similar, yet there are completely different reactions to them. The specific scenario that I want to know how to react against is a 7pool where they pull 2 drones. When there are 2 drones in your base, it seems like they can still go for an infinite ling style while threatening at any moment to throw down 2 spines. How are you supposed to respond to this? It seems like if you throw down a spine in your mineral line then he can throw 2 down out of reach of yours and just defend the spines, making your spine basically useless. But if you don't throw down a spine, then you are both constantly producing lings but he got a head start and can threaten to overwhelm you. WWBD?
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koreans have figured out how to defend 6 pool. Losira vs kyrix is a great example, the "history of blind 15 hatch in zvz" covers it really well. You even see zergs defending 10 pools nowadays too. although that is because they are doing stupid 10 pools, quite frankly, ie nasl sen vs vibe antiga g2. Nestea did a 'bad' 10 pool against DRG, a 10 pool speedling. He lost, and he never did it again, now he makes sure to only 10 pool and pull 8 drones like he came up with a while back.
10 pool bane, or 10 pool pull 8 drones, is the best way, no way hatch first can beat either of those (in case of banes, it does take micro, but just dont fuck it up and your good, and it's a little safer if they dont hatch first imo).
infinite ling is obvious because they dont pull drones to make any spines. both of them don't pull every drone, so you know not to base trade. If they morph a spine, fight, if they dont morph a spine, just delay forever.
if there are 2 drones in your base, they cant go for an 'infinite ling' style because its 2 drones less mining, or a 33% income hit. Just assume he's trying to morph spines with those drones, and fight him. if he morphs any spines, you attack them with just 4 drones. You shouldn't really be making spines against someone who is morphing spines themselves (unless it's really, really close, in which case it's just a judgement call, and it's something extra on top of the lings you are making and the fighting you are doing). if he has no drones, make a spine.
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They key here is that they cannot both stream lings and make spines.
Once he makes spines, thats 100-200 minerals that cannot be spent on lings. Thats four sets or 8 lings that won't be comming out for a good period of time.
So the answer is simple, if he's not immediately making spines; Know that more lings are probably on the way. If he is making spines immediately, deal with it like normally.
Edit: I was beat to it.
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So, the answer is make a spine, but then cancel it if he starts making a spine? Or do you let yours finish and try to prevent his from finishing? Also, how many drones do you need to be mining to constantly be producing lings? I've heard 5, but I'm not sure how accurate this is.
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^ lol its not that complicated.
if he has drones in your base, he's probably going to make spines. whatever though, that's not the core of the issue. You see drones in your base, it means he can't be going INFINITE ling because he can't rally INFINITE lings if he's not mining with all of his 5 workers.
If you happened to make a spine, whatever, let it finish - maybe you'll lose for making the wrong decision, but you've already made it, just play the game out.
but if he has drones in your base, attack him because he wont have many lings, and just pull back right before your lings pop, so you can attack with your lings. you know, use judgement, go in unit tester and see how drones fight against lings. get a feel for it, really. If he doesnt have any drones in your base, then its clearly infinite ling.
It's a lot about understanding, which is why this guide is so long, and it's important to understand. Spines are nasty - it creates a zone where you simply cannot ffight in, but it also means his lings are weaker, so that his spines when morphing, are basically unprotected. If he has no spines, it mean you can just bounce around in your mineral line for 10 minutes because he can't force an engagement, as 15 stacked drones will just beat soooo many lings, over 10, easily. As in belial's defensive drone flower of death.
So no spine, it means it's easy, just chill out and mineral walk a bunch. I recommend making a spine and protecting it by mineral walking all around it so he can't engage it, although making lings are okay (although not recommended, because if hes mining at home, he has the same rate of production as you, so i guess you'd have to make a queen too if you didnt want to make a spine...).
no drones = make spine, mineral walk, buy time.
drones = attack, he wont have as many lings because that drone isn't mining at home.
yea about 5 drones to constantly produce lings, not sure on exact. but that means he can't go infinite ling if a quarter+ of his drones are not mining, and have not been mining for the last minute.
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With proper drone micro you can actually increase your DPS. There was actually a guide about how a guy beat WhiteRa with a 12 drone rush and was outnumbered, to increase your DPS with drones i believe it was Hold position then attack, when you hold position the drones automatically attack whatever is in range, then by pressing a + move your drones attack again. So I believe that should work in increasing your DPS with drones. But this is something you'd only do if you have a decent surround on your opponent's units, otherwise stacking is probably your best bet.
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^ that's actually wrong. There wasn't a guide about 12 drone rush, there was just some guy who likes to get banned that posted a semi-blog/guide and shamelessly bumps it every 2 weeks. And I mean you're wrong about the micro.
What you are saying doesn't work at all, if it did it would be incredibly broken. You would just send a worker scout to someone's base and hit a/h/a/h/a/h and kill enemy workers in 2 seconds...
It's using hold position on workers in a fight, in the same fashion you pull back hurt stalkers, or units, in a fight (pulling back zealots or lings, blink micro, roach vs roach burrow micro, colossi vs colossi, etc). Since drones that are not attacking have neutral target priority, while units have a hostile target priority the same as an enemy unit (eg if there's a single enemy unit near a mineral field, the banelings will go towards that unit instead of blowing up on the juicy workers). So instead of pulling back weak workers in a fight, you just hit hold real quick on them, so the enemy's units attack a new target, and then you a-move again with that worker real quick, so it's still contributing to the fight, but is no longer being hit because now a new, healthier drone is being attacked.
It's just a better way to do pull-back micro with drones, abusing the target priority system, and allows you to do more damage, because instead of having to walk all that way, you just stand in range of the opponent's units but essentially pull the back, without having to pull them back, so they can jump back into the fight againq uickly.
In my guide, I made sure to come up with strategies that DONT require good micro at all, but obviously, if you can pull this off, go for it. In reality though, I think 99% of people are better off focusing on their macro (yes in 6 pool scenarios) and correct decision making, they are much more important than micro.
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EPT
