EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool! - Page 8
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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TheAngryZergling
United States387 Posts
On April 09 2012 17:56 Belial88 wrote: holy shit this guide is way too long. i need to redo it or something. I disagree. I appreciate its nitty gritty details and occasional rewordings to drive home important points. If you wish to rework it, perhaps make a new slimmed down version in its own thread. | ||
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Cute_Fluff
Israel14 Posts
1. its bluntly stupid - as in u can be a total chobo and GET IT (uhm... from experience...) :D 2. it changed my thinking of ZvZ - thought it was a coin-flip - ITS NOT! :D 3. 6-pool doesnt scare me that much anymore, and i think im gonna make ZvZ my be(a)st matchup :D and last but not least - its just heart-warming to c some1 of hi-caliber taking the time (ALOT of time) to put this comprehensive guide - so thanks again :D gl hf gg wp si vis pacem - para bellum | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
For the rework, I would probably spoiler the old guide, while putting the new slimmer version on the front, by editing the OP. Cute_fluff, 1. The guide is probably a little misleading on that first part. Some lower level players (bronze, silver, etc) don't really have the macro down for the first 2 inutes of the game (how do you get suly blocked at 18 or make your first 15 drones late, I have no idea). It is true that with this guide you will beat someone of similar skill, but I think now that defending vs attacking 6pool is based largely on macro (I've noticied every 6 pool loss seems to be macro based losses rather than anything else, at the lower levels). But anyone should be able to beat a comparable opponent with that knowledge in mind. 2.There's still a small coinflip - hatch first will autolose to a 10pooler who knows what they are doing (oh its so obnoxious when artosis says you can defend 10 pool with hacth first in the gsl as recently as this week). But you can mitigate this by 10 drone scouting on 2 player maps (something pro players never do, but hey, it works, and 90% of gsl zvz is wins and losses based on someone 10 pooling in the series, like recently with july, leenock, idra, and drg). Also a sort of philoaopphy behind this guide is the idea that 6 pool being a bo loss to anything, 6 ool should never been seen again in zvz. But 10 pool is still scary. Although I don't think people below masters, maybe diamond, know how to 10 pool a hatch firster and autowin. 3. 6 pool doesn't scare me either, but 10 pool does. | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You should also be making tons of lings, even pooling 3 larva for when the pool pops, which will go a long way to help, but if he's just continuing to stream lings with the same rate of production as you are, you will really need that spine to end the pressure. It will go a long way to allowing you to drone and tech up too, as if he does a 6 pool variation where he keeps mining, and does enough damage and a quick queen, a spine will go a long way to allowing you to drone up instead of making lings while you tech up so you don't need a ton of units to defend (banes, roaches, whatever). | ||
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Omnidroid
New Zealand214 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you are going pool or gas first, you can sometimes get a spine. There are actually more ways to hold early pool than what I described (although not too many, since the vast majority of 6 poolers, especially below higher masters, simply make the wrong decisions on how to attack and base trade, not to mention micro poorly, and sometimes even macro poorly, which often means you can respond incorrectly sometimes and get away with it, or do certain responses that otherwise shouldn't work). What my guide describes is assuming perfect play and decision making from the opponent (like not attacking into a Belial's Defensive Drone Flower), and that you went hatch first on a tiny map and don't have much time (either your pool is late due to going hatch first, or your pool won't be alive for long due to needing to run away). If you make your pool earlier than going hatch first, or if your opponent is a moron, or if you can actually micro well, or if you want to be greedy (you can actually keep the hatch against certain pool variations), there are a lot more ways to hold. My guide just tells you ways you are guaranteed to come out ahead. There are other ways to get ahead, that can be viable, like if you go pool first or the opponent doesn't play perfectly or if you gamble (like trying to hide a defensive spine on the edge of your creep and hoping he doesn't see it, or rather, micro'ing your units away from it so he never sees it). I mention a little bit of when making a spine can be an option, or how to recover if you can't focus down his spine quick enough to kill it before it pops (I believe in the section about Ling+Spine, in a sub-section). But I don't really think what you are doing is a good idea - it may work, of course, but why chance it? As soon as his initial force arrives, you should be able to have enough drones to have map control (weird concept to discuss at the 3:20 mark, but basically who has the stronger army when factoring in speed), and focus his spine down with 4 of the drones. By the time he regains map control, or has reinforcement lings arrive, you should have either forced a cancel on his spine, or have your pool up. I don't think getting a spine is generally a good idea because you already waited for one building to pop - waiting for another building to pop just means you are waiting around for so long that you die. Spines really do take forever to build, but lings don't take that long, so you want to get lings over spines. The only time you will want a defensive spine is against early pools that DONT make a spine (you can protect it with drone drilling and hold position - what a spine does in early pool scenarios, is force you to be unable to be in a certain area, like by your mineral line, or to engage lings attacking your hatch because they are being covered by a spine), and when you fuck up against focusing down his spine but have done enough damage to his lings but without your own spine you can't engage the lings/spine without being fucked up by the spine/lings. | ||
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Chutoro
New Zealand95 Posts
Just tried the base trade+spine approach against a 6 pool drone all-in, and it worked great. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Z3ratoss
Germany3 Posts
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Chutoro
New Zealand95 Posts
On April 28 2012 22:55 Belial88 wrote: ^ Glad it helped you! I think your the first person that's ever said that they actually used the advice in the guide, in an actual game. I actually use the advice from lots of guides here. Perhaps I should post that more often so that guide authors know their efforts are appreciated.  Regarding your guide structure, I agree with you that it could use some improvement, but I also agree with the above poster that it would be good to leave the details in if possible. What I would suggest is to switch the order around and lead with a summary of your strategy for each variation which is simple enough to commit to memory (basically your "in short" section, maybe expanded just a little) and include the details afterward, possibly in a spoilered section. The summary is generally the part I am trying to remember and execute on during an actual game, since I'm not going to commit the whole guide to memory, and it's too much to think about for quick decision making anyway. If things don't go quite how I hoped, or the recommended strategy didn't achieve the desired results, that's when I want to see the details to find out whether I executed it correctly. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Ill work on it once I get reps for my zvp guide. Understanding decision making is actually really important, I gotta say I've never seen anyone below masters execute a 6 pool correctly (not well, but correctly). Even in masters I run into ppeople alll the time who let my drone make a spine in their base when they their drones min, or will attack into a belials drone flower of death even when they have a spine morphing in range. Really you shouuld beat most laddeer scrubs by just defensive drone stacking and they attack it. | ||
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Beardfish
United States525 Posts
EDIT: Oh, and how can I forget. Thank you Belial88 for the awesome guide. | ||
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
I read the guide, then trained with a mate. 6-7 pools seems ok, beeting it when there are 1 or 2 spines is hard but ok. But with 8 pool, what he did to me was putting 3 spines down in my base, by letting some drones at mining. Like this, it looked so imba... Do you think that we cant defend against an early pool when the guy is putting 3 spines down ? Or do you have any tips ? Thanks again for your useful guide ! | ||
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Zygomorphium
Canada21 Posts
On April 09 2012 17:56 Belial88 wrote: holy shit this guide is way too long. i need to redo it or something. No. At worst, make a condensed version of it somewhere else or nested in spoilers somewhere. I love the details. Hell, I love the entire guide. It's the way I would write something. I'm the kind of person who can go on triple tangents to try to explain something in stupid detail. I'm sure I've ended up talking about ZvZ when someone asked me what I thought of the 4-gate vs 4-gate thing when that was the only way to play PvP. The only criticism I have for the guide is probably what you saw too, where it's kind of difficult to pick out the basic stuff from all the details. Like, I understand all the why's but don't remember the specific what's anymore and I am going to write down the what's in a .txt or on a piece of paper to help remind myself. Actually, don't redo it. Make a ZvT guide first lolol. I am completely lost in that matchup. Back on topic. I tried a 6-pool against an AI with worker pairing and got 0:42 so I'll stop there (I should hit diamond any minute and I'll still be top-8 so I have better things to worry about). I have a couple of questions about the pairings if you don't mind (or someone else). 1: Is there a smarter way to set up the pairs than spamming right click on the mineral field until the other drone leaves? It seems to me that we're wasting one gathering cycle to set this up. 2: Am I doing something wrong if the pairs break up? When I was doing this 6-pool I noticed a while later that one drone had left the pair since the return time was probably a few frames shorter than the gather time. Is this just something I have to deal with? Thanks | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Hello there ! This is my first post here ! I read the guide, then trained with a mate. 6-7 pools seems ok, beeting it when there are 1 or 2 spines is hard but ok. But with 8 pool, what he did to me was putting 3 spines down in my base, by letting some drones at mining. Like this, it looked so imba... Do you think that we cant defend against an early pool when the guy is putting 3 spines down ? Or do you have any tips ? Thanks again for your useful guide ! I'm having a little trouble understanding your post. Just post the rep and I'll see what I can make of it. If the guy isn't mining with drones at home though, you should be able to just base trade. 1: Is there a smarter way to set up the pairs than spamming right click on the mineral field until the other drone leaves? It seems to me that we're wasting one gathering cycle to set this up. I'm saying when you are ready, you won't have to spam right click If you watch T/P players pair, they generally dont' spam click, they'll just set the rally point to a mineral patch and they will have a pairing set up then and there. It's a lot easier to do this with T/P though, because they queue up workers (whereas with Zerg, you MUST morph that larva the second it pops and you have 50 minerals, so if you hit 50 minerals and a larva is available, you can't just keep trying to force that pair, you have to stop and morph that larva, and then that drone bounces off, which makes pairing with Z a lot harder than the other 2 races). But if you are good, you can just send the drone to a mineral patch at the perfect timing and you'll just 'know' that it'll pair correctly. Yea, you are killing a mineral cycle with pairing sometimes. You just have to get good at knowing how to pair and when, to make sure that the drone you are working with starts mining asap. If you don't pair well, you can actually hurt yourself more than help (like if the pairs you set up don't stick - for example, on maps like Shakuras, with a really close by mineral patch, like that middle one, it's really fucking hard to pair it - my advice for that map, is at the start, split 3/3 or whatever you do, and then make your first pair, that pair, because the 1st drone mining on it is coming at an angle, so you can set the 1st paired drone to come at an angle too, because you are grabbing the drone that is trying to mine at the patch right next to it). 2: Am I doing something wrong if the pairs break up? When I was doing this 6-pool I noticed a while later that one drone had left the pair since the return time was probably a few frames shorter than the gather time. Is this just something I have to deal with? I wouldn't say 'wrong', but you aren't doing it perfectly. It's not enough just to have a drone start mining on a field, you want both drones approaching at the same angle. So for example, a pairing won't stick if you have a drone mining, and then you introduce a 2nd drone by having it mine from behind the mineral patch. This is because it will return at an off timing. To make sure a pairing sticks, you need the drone to come from an equally distanced part of the mineral patch. So taking that middle patch on shakuras as an example again, it's good to pair on that patch first thing. This is because when the drone first mines on it initially, it will go to it at a slight angle, and then you grab another drone, and make it mine from the same 80* angle from the other side of the patch. Another example is the far patch (either one) on metalopolis. You have a drone mining on it. If you just rally a drone to that patch, it will actually go far outside of it, and mine it at like a 45* angle, and you know it won't stick because the drone already mining will just go straight to it from the hatch. So when pairing on that mineral field, I actually move command the drone so that it will start mining from it at about a 100* angle, or just slightly 'out' of the mineral patch from straight back and forth to the hatch. It takes time to sort of figure this all out. Just play more, you'll get the feel for different patches on different maps. Each map pairs differently (for example, on Korhal, a 3/3 split will often result in a pairing right away on one of the inner, close patches, so make sure the first drone you grab for pairing after the drones make their first mineral return, a drone that ISN'T one of those 2 paired drones, or you will either ruin that first, free pairing, or be pairing a drone that was already paired, on Cloud Kingdom, make sure to grab a drone that isn't already mining from one of the closest 4 patches, on shakuras, make sure the first drone you grab to pair after the first return, is a drone mining one of the patches from the patch next to the middle patch, and then set it to mine that middle patch with the drone that is already mining on it, because it's the hardest pair to make, and the best pair to make, and most easily done if you do it first thing, on metalopolis, set the drone that is pairing on the mineral field closest to the ramp, to start mining slightly outward so the pair is set up perfectly, on metropolis, be careful because 2 of the optimal patches are right next to eachother, so be careful not to screw up a pair you already made by clicking the wrong patch). | ||
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Chutoro
New Zealand95 Posts
On April 29 2012 11:38 Belial88 wrote: Well your suppsed to read the whole thing ^^ Ill work on it once I get reps for my zvp guide. Understanding decision making is actually really important, I gotta say I've never seen anyone below masters execute a 6 pool correctly (not well, but correctly). Even in masters I run into ppeople alll the time who let my drone make a spine in their base when they their drones min, or will attack into a belials drone flower of death even when they have a spine morphing in range. Really you shouuld beat most laddeer scrubs by just defensive drone stacking and they attack it. Agreed, but it's partly a question of learning style. Reading the whole thing end to end is well and good (and I did so) but I often retain things better if I try something on my own first, screw it up royally, and then read a detailed guide to find out how I should have done it. Since I have a personal experience of my own to relate it to, I tend to remember it better and it stays with me longer. If I read the whole thing through once I'm unlikely to retain more than a general concept. For example, attempting to do your drone flower trick, failing miserably and then re-reading that section of your guide taught me that that the word "repeatedly" (as in "click repeatedly") is very important. I found that very easy to miss on a first read, but I don't think I'll forget it in a hurry now. | ||
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
Also "I don’t recommend expanding and trying to just macro quickly. It’s quite common for a 6 pool to simply transition into a roach all-in or some other type of all-in, and you can usually end the game with the huge macro lead you’ll have even with both of you on 1 base. However, there are two instances I’d recommend expanding, one is when the opponent gets double queen to block scouting." You first said that expanding can lose you game if enemy goes roach allin or other type allin, but now you recommend expanding if you can not even scout. What? Also you were recommending expanding against roach allin while you previously did not recommend it. What? "you can take his first 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones" No you cant. If he has 4 drones and 8 lings, you will lose the fight if all you have is 18 drones. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Base trade against drone all in 6pool will 100% lose you the game because enemys drones and lings are already in your base so they kill your buildings before you can kill theirs because you are not even at their base yet. That is why I say you MUST have a scouting drone - against drone all-in variations of 6/7/8 pool, you will lose because of this exact reason. Your pool will die before your drones can get to their base to plant a spine. If you had a scouting worker, there is no way they will kill your pool before it finishes. Also, a spine is a building too. The 2nd reason why you need a scouting worker. While an extractor can work too, the difference is that with making a spine, if you don't get at least 4 lings out, I'd recommend you just not kill their hatch and force a stalemate or for them to get hit by the spine (or, you can micro like a beast, but that's up to you...). "I don’t recommend expanding and trying to just macro quickly. It’s quite common for a 6 pool to simply transition into a roach all-in or some other type of all-in, and you can usually end the game with the huge macro lead you’ll have even with both of you on 1 base. However, there are two instances I’d recommend expanding, one is when the opponent gets double queen to block scouting." You first said that expanding can lose you game if enemy goes roach allin or other type allin, but now you recommend expanding if you can not even scout. What? Also you were recommending expanding against roach allin while you previously did not recommend it. What? It'd be more clear if you use the quote tags. This comes from what I first said, that you should get gas for ling speed asap against 6 pools (if he pulls drones, obviously you won't need it, and if you want to wait until after you hold, that's perfectly fine). With speed and having lots of drones, you should be able to simply overwhelm 6/7/8 pools with just mass speedling, maybe banes too. If the opponent goes double queen, you should have speed. Yea, he could go roach all-in, but now you have speed. You can expand, and if he turns out to roach all-in, you should hold it easily if you got speed, and played conservatively enough knowing he's only on 1 base, and you are on 2. "you can take his first 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones" No you cant. If he has 4 drones and 8 lings, you will lose the fight if all you have is 18 drones. You can take his 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones if you get 4+ lings out You can possibly take his 6-8 lings with 15-18 drones and 2 lings out but it's not guaranteed, due to micro and position You cannot take out his 6-8 lings with your 15-18 drones with less than 2 lings. Don't conveniently leave out what I said. | ||
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