EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool! - Page 6
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The image links you provided aren't working because no image exists at the link. The problem is on the gamereplays site (did not properly generate images) or your copy/pasting of where they put your generated image. I don't know if you are familiar with gamereplays.org, but they have like a little section where it says somthing like "Copy Embed Code" where you are supposed to copy/paste a line so that, when posted on forums, an image that links the replay pops up. If you hit 'edit' on my post, you'll see the code. I'm not sure why no image link exists, people used to post from that replay site with that image/link all the time. I think it's something to do with TL because I don't see anyone using it anymore, or at least with the accompanying image. | ||
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ExO_
United States2316 Posts
The 3 on steppes of war, while disproving that belial's build should hold on even steppes of war, I don't entirely put a lot of stock in because this distance is quite frankly way closer than it would be on any ladder map (that being said it does guarantee that you will scout in time to cancel the 15 hatch.) The one on Xel Naga was the one I payed the most attention to. Right before the first engagement you had 17 drones, 18th popping out, while he had 6 lings in your base, 2 about 60%ish of the way there, 2 more in his base, and 2 50% done building. At the very start, with some mineral walking, and slightly slow micro from your opponent, you manage to trap 2 lings and pick them off, and move back 2 drones that were losing health and about to die. Pretty good micro from you at the start However, this bit of micro caused you to fight in a choke without stacking your drones up to trap for a few seconds, costing you lots of health and a drone. However you then mineral walk again and pick off a ling. So far, 3 lings lost, 1 drone lost. Lots of damaged drones, but none in the red, 5 in the orange. Next you proceed to lose a drone and build a spine. The drones move out of the way to build this spine, sending another 1 to it's death. Still, only 3 drones lost thus far. You get another decent surround, but right before you're about to pick off 2 lings in the red you retreat, allowing him to pick off a couple drones. This fight costs you 4 drones, 2 dying as you mineral walk. You then proceed to try to mineral walk and get surrounds, but can't find an angle to do so. All of the moving and not fighting eventually costs you too many drones. Overall, micro went really well for you at the start, and then went okay through the rest of the fight. You had some major slip-ups, but your opponent seemed to have a few more. Your drones didn't make perfect surrounds after the very beginning, but your opponent didn't really walk into areas in which you could be expected to make perfect surrounds. All-in-all I think micro went just about as good as could be expected out of anyone except the TOP tier level of players, and this isn't including how good the ling micro could've been as well. At the end of the game, despite not knowing what your opponent had, you tell him he isn't in a lead, and exaggeration your ling count by 2 and drone count by 1. Why? I did not understand any reasoning for this. After watching all of these games you came off sounding rude and hostile. Rather than trying to dissect what about the game(s) went wrong you assumed you were ahead or that the loss was purely b/c you couldn't execute your own build. The other guy didn't seem particularly rude to me, except in response to the aggression I perceived coming off of you. Overall, I think you have a much better chance of this being a successful build if only you had more time. On maps like Tal Darim it appears a 7 pool wouldn't be as effective because even though you may lose drones, the lings will not have enough time to kill too many because the spine/ling production will get up. However, this build definitely looks to me to have big holes when spawning in any kind of close position. I think holding it would be more bad micro/execution on the part of your opponent and good play on your part, rather than as a result of the build. Just my 2 cents, from an unbiased, uninvested perspective Edit: Also, is belial a DS9 reference? | ||
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whoopingchow
United States293 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10372 Posts
On December 16 2011 19:20 C[h]ili wrote: So, you are the reason I actually signed up, after a long time of passive reading. Be proud  Thanks alot for the profound guide on how to stop 6-pool. The amount of effort you have put into this guide is really impressive. Just want to mention a few things. First, and in case I understand you correctly, the Belia's flower of death is already known and suggested by the master himself. See One issue I see with your argument is that you go 15 hatch in the assumption a 6 pool is incoming. Still, while hatch first certainly is common, it has other drawbacks. So I wonder whether you suggestions are helpful in a situation where you go, say, 14 pool? I think your guide might benefit from elaborating on this a bit. There might be an issue with investing 100 minerals in a spine in the opponent's base, because that might cut into the linge you are able to build at home. Also, against drone-allin you suggest building linges from your main hatch. Do you think it is feasible to surround your eggs perfectly and hence denying you reinforcing your drone army with lings? So, forgive my noobish babble. Your guide gave a very interesting read and is important to all zerg buddies around. For the swarm. LOL i was wondering what master you were talking about haha. Then I'm like, why is habit still attacking into the drone stack? Then i found out it was to show that drone stacking is good. But unless I'm mistaken, Habit was trying to use that game as an example of how to counter his build? But if the opponent drone stacks you can just back off and defend your spine right? Anyway Belial very very nice detailed guide  .On December 20 2011 13:34 Belial88 wrote: Peleus, I stopped playing it because you screwed it up. I said so in game, meaning we need to do the game over. I wasn't aware that you were taking everything seriously and planning to act like this. I played with you to be nice, because you asked for help in trying new things, and to help you with your 6 pool. I don't think anyone is going to take you seriously, and the replays are already up of how to properly play that pool. Anyone is free to watch those replays to see what not to do. Yes, you lose going hatch first if you are chatting, not taking the game seriously, doing something other than the responses I outline in the guide, and all around screw it up or screw around. I don't know if you are familiar with gamereplays.org, but they have like a little section where it says somthing like "Copy Embed Code" where you are supposed to copy/paste a line so that, when posted on forums, an image that links the replay pops up. If you hit 'edit' on my post, you'll see the code. I'm not sure why no image link exists, people used to post from that replay site with that image/link all the time. I think it's something to do with TL because I don't see anyone using it anymore, or at least with the accompanying image. Same here, it's strange. I think it might have been when TL switched to a wider width? or may be I'm way off. But anyways the images don't show up for me neither and it sort of sucks  | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I just want to say...I think you were in Bronze league with me, and I kept checking your match history because you were doing way better than me. Glad to see you're wrecking Master's league as well as you were wrecking Bronze :D That would be a year ago. Unless you have phenomenal memory, I doubt that you were thinking of me. There are quite a few Belials out there, I'm the only one in Masters, lots of gold and bronze belials, and one is (or was at least) in GM. But unless I'm mistaken, Habit was trying to use that game as an example of how to counter his build? But if the opponent drone stacks you can just back off and defend your spine right? Yes, the 'counter' to my Floral Arrangement of Death is a spine. That's why it's the 'answer' against any pool without a spine. Same here, it's strange. I think it might have been when TL switched to a wider width? or may be I'm way off. But anyways the images don't show up for me neither and it sort of sucks Well, the links work. Maybe I'll change it so it's just a line of text, so it doesn't look ugly. ExO_, those games weren't serious games. I win the last game, but I stopped playing it after he screwed up his hold anyways (you notice my drones just sit there for a second while I was typing and he took out about half of them in that process) and so he think he's ahead, when he wasn't, and I was trying to get him to remake the game so we could do it again more properly, and a replay where someone is screwing up their micro isn't a good replay. But, apparently, he thinks it's a good example. None of those games were serious, and if I played seriously he simply would've just straight up lost. I've already proven how to hold 6 pool with infinite ling, and he kept doing goofy things like 7 pooling or making a queen, so I pretty much stopped playing. There isn't any 'top tier micro' that's necessary, you just right click on a mineral patch repeatedly. Multiple times in all of those games I either stopped moving because I started typing when something went wrong, or I did something completely wrong, like hitting hold position around my spine, to test it out. You can check out the replays, I already have shown how to hold 6 pool infinite ling and I'll be happy to create more replays. Peleus told me he wanted to try different things out, and I believe in the chatlogs it's made clear I wasn't playing to show a serious hold, but rather to test things out. I think in the first game I also just straight up screwed up, which happens, I said it was the hardest 6 pool to deal with and you can lose if you screw it up. I did not even do what I said you're supposed to do in the guide. I would appreciate if you just ignore Peleus, I'm pretty offended how someone asks to test things out and let's see how different things work, besides what I recommended, and then he shows it as proof that you can't hold a 6 pool. He's clearly a troll, or otherwise he'd rather work out the builds and see what happens, but instead he leaves with a "LOL SCRUB" and disconnects. | ||
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Munchkin
Finland99 Posts
Other than that... great read. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
The others, no one had come up with yet. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
This is interesting, someone did somewhat of my counter to the Bad Habit 7 pool drone all-in and the video was shown on When Cheese Fails. There were a lot of huge blunders by both sides, and red should have won but charged his lings way ahead of the rest of his units at the end, but blue stupidly lost too many units and didn't cancel his hatch. Basic idea was right - base trade, eventually engage with superior forces. This may be interesting to anyone who is lower level or struggling to pull off my 'counter'. I don't think anyone is struggling though with 6 pool after seeing this guide anymore right? Has anyone beat a 6 pool on ladder, by the way, after reading this guide? | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Simply amazing. Thanks for all the hard work you put into this. Spent an hour looking at it and reviewing the replays, and I'll definitely incorporate it into my play. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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GWBuffalo
United States234 Posts
For example, there will be a drone on a close patch. I'll take another drone on a far patch and spam click on the close patch until it pairs with the first drone. The pair will remain in tact for a couple cycles, but then one of the stupid drones will just leave! Is there a trick to prevent this? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
So when a drone is actually mining, select another drone and furiously right click on that same mineral patch. It'll spaz out until it 'sticks', and then it'll be good to go. Maybe try it out with T/P first, Zerg is harder to worker pair with, due to the nature of larva and such (makes more sense if you try it out). Yes, some mineral patches are difficult, like middle patches, such as the one on Shakuras. You have to not only pair it, but pair it in a way that when it sticks, it's in the same exact position as the other worker, or at least same distance to hatch. Hard to really explain, but you'll figure it out... Just watch any of the replays, I worker pair in all of the games. Yea, sometimes they will mine for a few cycles and then unstick. If you are really good, you can tell when a drone pair is going to unstick, but you really shouldn't worry about it if they unstick. But if you have one drone mining, don't 'stick' another drone at a completely slanted angle. Ideally, you want it so they sort of spazz, and slowly drift over, until when they stop, they are perfectly positioned in the 'middle' of the patch. Like, say the mineral patches are north of your base. Your drone is west of the patches. If you click on a patch, it'll slide eastward. Click it slower, or faster (actually thats' too complicated, just click) in a way to coordinate it so it sticks at the perfect position. I know it sounds sort of complicated... I'm just used to pairing by now. Don't stress it too hard if you don't know how to do it, just spend a few games practicing it against AI, then play. Don't screw up your BO doing it (i used to always forget 9 overlord when I first started pairing), but you'll see you can spend more and more time worker pairing because you know how it times, ie my 2nd worker pair means I need to make another drone as soon as it sticks, then I can pair 2 more until overlord. | ||
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GWBuffalo
United States234 Posts
On December 31 2011 05:29 Belial88 wrote: ... I know it sounds sort of complicated... I'm just used to pairing by now. Don't stress it too hard if you don't know how to do it, just spend a few games practicing it against AI, then play. Don't screw up your BO doing it (i used to always forget 9 overlord when I first started pairing), but you'll see you can spend more and more time worker pairing because you know how it times, ie my 2nd worker pair means I need to make another drone as soon as it sticks, then I can pair 2 more until overlord. Awesome man. Thanks for the detailed response! :D | ||
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chaos~
United States13 Posts
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Wiwiweb
France56 Posts
2 questions for you : 1) XelNaga Caverns and Steppes of War both conveniently have a "recluse" mineral that can easily be used for your drone flower, however, many maps like Shattered Temple don't have these formations of minerals. How would you hold an Infinite Ling 6 pool on these maps? 2) In the end, and you said it yourself, hatch first still loses to 9/10/11 pool. If your guide really works out perfectly and 6 pool becomes useless against everything, then the default cheese will become 9 pool and nothing will have changed in the rock paper scissors state of ZvZ build orders. Before reading this, my main way to hatch first safely was simply to send a scout at 9, before overlord, and, if on a big map like Taldarim, send another scout at 11-12 as the first scout find no bases on close positions, in order to check both other bases at the same time. Though you lose a little mining time versus someone who would blindly hatch first (risky play always pays off if lucky), it still allows you to see the base just before you put my hatch down, making it 100% safe. Wouldn't doing this actually waste less minerals than having to cancel the hatch in case of cheese ? | ||
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Iksf
United Kingdom444 Posts
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
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Zorkmid
4410 Posts
I'd always struggled with the micro associated with holding early pools as Zerg until a teammate gave me this tip: Group all workers together, click on a mineral patch, hit A, the click on another mineral patch. Repeat until your lings are out. | ||
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