EPT[G] Belial's Comprehensive Guide to Beating 6 Pool! - Page 2
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'm really curious to see a replay where you drop a 0:37 pool, as the best I've been able to get after like half an hour is 0:41 and I thought I did everything perfectly! 41 seconds is pretty good. 37 seconds require a nice map for it, like Shakuras, and you have to get perfect drone pairing immediately, if any refuse and bounce off then you won't get 37 seconds. You have to do it quickly as well, I think 2 before the first drone is made, and the next 2 before the 2nd one. I'll post one up though. | ||
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HaIf
Canada234 Posts
On December 16 2011 20:51 Belial88 wrote: 41 seconds is pretty good. 37 seconds require a nice map for it, like Shakuras, and you have to get perfect drone pairing immediately, if any refuse and bounce off then you won't get 37 seconds. You have to do it quickly as well, I think 2 before the first drone is made, and the next 2 before the 2nd one. I'll post one up though. Hmm, I've been doing on Steppes as I assumed that was the map you were using. I'll try it on Skakuras right now~ | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I could only get 39 seconds on XNC. Maybe that's why he's GM with it lol. I'm pretty sure it's... theoretically possible (not sure about humanly possible) if you have a map where there are 3 mineral patches that are extremely close - as in so close, that all 3 are as close as the closest mineral patch on Shakuras (that middle one). For example, on XNC, it has sort of 2 pods of 3 mineral patches, then 2 in the middle, and there are sort of 4 'optimal' patches - 2 on each 'side' of the nodes on the sides. The 'inner' patches that are 'closer' are actually a tad bit further away from the hatch than the 2 most outher patches, which actually results in a 2 second later pool if you perfectly pair. I'm not sure what the 'perfect' map is, but it'd require 3 perfectly super close mineral patches. I don't think shakuras has it. I'm not sure what map if any has it I suppose. As for humanly possible, I'm not sure. I was playing on Slow also lol. But I could definitely tell on a better mineral field I could get 37 seconds. | ||
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evils_death
77 Posts
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HaIf
Canada234 Posts
Can't get it below 0:40 on Shakuras but I'll take your word for 0:39 ^^ It's amazing what double pairing does for pool timings! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And so many pros don't drone pair cough idra and destiny cough >< Not yet finished reading, but as someone who hatch firsts in virtually every zvz, this is incredibly useful :3 A good thing to note is that people doing early pools really have no idea what they're doing and are too used to free wins to hatch first, giving you much chance to outplay them. Oh yea, for sure. Given that I would contend that everyone below masters can't really 6 pool well, and that most people aren't masters, and even most masters probably don't know how to perfectly do it (I spent hours and hours and days figuring out how to hold 6 pool - I wonder how many 6 poolers out there besides bad habit, or anyone really besides pros, have spent so much time refining a build/anti-build as we have, so obviously there's that, I'm not saying I'm a better human or anything, just practice and refinement), yea, you can really get away with a lot more on ladder. I actually win about 50% of the games I get 6 pooled, even in masters, by people who attack my Floral Arrangement of Death. (Floral Arrangement of Guile in this case, hehe) - they know to back off when I try to mineral walk them, but when I stack up, they attack it, and suddenly their 10 lings just dissapear. Suddenly they pull back from the huge mess of units and are like wtf i had 16 units and now I have 2 lings where'd they go?!? and then they see me pull out with 18 drones that just looked like a single drone. Then you can win a lot of them because you kill their spine and they didn't cancel and now no spine with their ling+spine rush, effectively neutering them completely because now it's just a laughable 6 lings. Or they make it super early, before their army arrives, and are forced to cancel. Never make the spine until your army arrives, in full! Not just the first 6 lings! And then it's funny when you make a spine in their base too. Regardless of what variation is going on, you can always attempt to put a spine in their base with your scouting worker, which is quite funny, and most of the time they don't even notice an enemy spine is morphing inside their mineral line. If only I could reach GM by beating 6 pools ;/ | ||
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HaIf
Canada234 Posts
It's also really annoying to stop them from splitting up again once they are stacked... silly drones. Edit: Most definitely possible! Had 200 minerals at 0:37 :D + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AUyBC.jpg) | ||
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evils_death
77 Posts
On December 16 2011 21:25 Belial88 wrote: Yea, I mean I think we can agree that simple drone pairing while your twiddling your thumbs can shave a good 10 seconds off the pool timing, which can be a great help. There's nothing else you are doing. And so many pros don't drone pair cough idra and destiny cough >< Oh yea, for sure. Given that I would contend that everyone below masters can't really 6 pool well, and that most people aren't masters, and even most masters probably don't know how to perfectly do it (I spent hours and hours and days figuring out how to hold 6 pool - I wonder how many 6 poolers out there besides bad habit, or anyone really besides pros, have spent so much time refining a build/anti-build as we have, so obviously there's that, I'm not saying I'm a better human or anything, just practice and refinement), yea, you can really get away with a lot more on ladder. I actually win about 50% of the games I get 6 pooled, even in masters, by people who attack my Floral Arrangement of Death. (Floral Arrangement of Guile in this case, hehe) - they know to back off when I try to mineral walk them, but when I stack up, they attack it, and suddenly their 10 lings just dissapear. Suddenly they pull back from the huge mess of units and are like wtf i had 16 units and now I have 2 lings where'd they go?!? and then they see me pull out with 18 drones that just looked like a single drone. Then you can win a lot of them because you kill their spine and they didn't cancel and now no spine with their ling+spine rush, effectively neutering them completely because now it's just a laughable 6 lings. Or they make it super early, before their army arrives, and are forced to cancel. Never make the spine until your army arrives, in full! Not just the first 6 lings! And then it's funny when you make a spine in their base too. Regardless of what variation is going on, you can always attempt to put a spine in their base with your scouting worker, which is quite funny, and most of the time they don't even notice an enemy spine is morphing inside their mineral line. If only I could reach GM by beating 6 pools ;/ The floral arrangement of death sounds awesome lol. Really gonna help buy time and suprise people. I also facepalmed myself when I read about your BossWalk, as I've been losing to double spines every time.... It's so simple yet effective lol. Thanks so much for the guide.... This really makes me want to delay learning 14/14 more XD | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
much appreciated | ||
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Whoami777
United States8 Posts
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
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AfricanPsycho
South Africa158 Posts
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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay462 Posts
i don't save larva, just make all drones to the end and make 3 spines within my mining drones the moment the pool finishes (and/or another spine at his base with my drone scout), and then lings from that moment on until i know i survived. sometimes i make a 4th spine as soon as i have enough minerals. the idea is that it doesn't matter that his spine finishes before yours, cause you will have more of them. If he tries to kill your spines you will delay as much as possible with a combination of mineral walking, drones on hold, attacking when he focus fires drones and mineralwalking the hurt ones, etc. If his spine is too close, try to lower his health with a couple drones without commiting just to improve your spines chance to win, as you might have to uproot them to clear the threat on your mineral line. and that should be possible cause you have more spines than he does. 2 spines can root to kill an already rooted spine, that is why your third spine helps, by protecting the rooting ones from being attacked by drones and lings. if his spines are just hitting your hatch you just let him and constantly make lings for the big fight in which you should have a lot more than he does, as you've been mining a lot more. add a queen or more spines if you can't spend fast enough because of larvae. putting down a spine means "x seconds from now, i will have a lot more dps and hitpoints than you", so engage me now and i'll screw you by killing your stuff while you hit the spine that i may even cancel, or wait till its done and be fucked by the spine itself  . So you are fucked cause you will be chasing air.so you can put your own spines and play the same game. the difference is that you have a lot more spines but a little later, a lot more drones, but less lings. | ||
iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Why anyone would attack anything that's not threatening your spine is beyond me... and I always said that the best way by far to beat a 6pool drone allin is buling a spine on OPPONENT'S creep, because chances are he won't be able to kill a standing spine with the remaining units. Um, that's not exactly why you build the spine, and in all honesty, the spine is actually kind of pointless. It's just a last building to have because he's killing your hatch and pool, and you might as well make it a spine instead of extractor because you should have a ton of banked minerals, so the extra cost isn't an issue, and spines can walk. He actually will have enough to kill it with his remaining units, but all that's really going on is that you are running your drone away, and making lings, and once you have enough lings and rallied your forces together, you attack, and win. The spine gives a sort of 'safe haven' so you can rally your lings to it and have your drones hang there and not be chased by the opponent, but you can just as easily run circles around the map until your lings pop. It also sort of puts pressure back on the opponent, but if they are decent they should know it doesn't matter. Because eventually, you two are going to have to fight eachother. So the spine actually isn't why you win or lose the game, it just makes things a bit easier for you. But it is never actually used for fighting purposes... You should make a Protoss guide covering different openers (FFE, 1 gate expo etc) By protoss guide, you mean ZvP? I plan to, but it will be a while getting replays and vods banked up for it. I plan to make the ZvZ guide first, it's mostly done but I need replays and I have to start from scratch basically... I think I may rely on vods instead. And I try not to watch vods (better to play than watch). i don't save larva, just make all drones to the end and make 3 spines within my mining drones the moment the pool finishes (and/or another spine at his base with my drone scout), and then lings from that moment on until i know i survived. sometimes i make a 4th spine as soon as i have enough minerals. the idea is that it doesn't matter that his spine finishes before yours, cause you will have more of them. If he tries to kill your spines you will delay as much as possible with a combination of mineral walking, drones on hold, attacking when he focus fires drones and mineralwalking the hurt ones, etc. If his spine is too close, try to lower his health with a couple drones without commiting just to improve your spines chance to win, as you might have to uproot them to clear the threat on your mineral line. and that should be possible cause you have more spines than he does. 2 spines can root to kill an already rooted spine, that is why your third spine helps, by protecting the rooting ones from being attacked by drones and lings. Very interesting! I would love to chat with you online, or see a few replays of this, where you are against masters 6 poolers (or ones that competently execute the pool - I could do it to you as well. I've tried working out alternate solutions but I haven't been able to find any. The solution you propose also seems to be less micro intensive than the one I came up with. So, can we setup a BO7 with you and Habit and put your theories to the test? I feel like some people would rather watch me fail, and don't want anything new to happen, and just want everyone to be miserable, rather than learn something new. I would be happy if someone was able to come up with an early pool build that, after hashing out over a few games, we still can't possibly find a solution for. I'm not here trying to argue something, I've proven something, and I'm laying out the evidence here. You can watch the replays. I don't think setting up a BO7 with habit, of him doing the exact builds he describes, would be productive at all. And I don't need to be the one playing it - he can play against a friend, or you can play against a friend yourself, doing such builds and such described counters, and see what works and what doesn't. The bad Habit 7pool single spine drone all-in zvz build, as he describes, is extremely easy to beat. | ||
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Bad_Habit
Germany243 Posts
would be nice to link my thread tho : ) when i find some time ill read all the thread and give u my opinion on all ur counterreaction | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
You'd either do a completely different build... or I don't know... you'd lose >< You can just do it with a friend, you don't have to play it with me. Or whatever. | ||
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Geiko
France2034 Posts
I don't want to be obnoxious but I would want to see that BO7 ^^ Congratulation for your guide Belial, you put a lot of hard work into it and it shows. | ||
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