[G] GrandMaster SC2 Lecture: Aggressive Zerg Play - Page 13

On November 06 2011 16:50 Inters wrote:
Not sure why Tang is getting so much rap for teaching aggressive/cheesy play?

First off, cheese is the best way to learn. I flogged around for a bit in bronze league when I first started playing, then I discoved that you could actually just build a spawning pool at 6 supply. Once that got accomplished, I used that as a stepping stone to gold league by learning how to multitask/macro by building only 6 lings at the start and trying to keep them alive as long as possible. I went from bronze scrub to diamond scrub in 100 games. Obviously not record breaking, but something to consider.
Why would anyone below plat, or hell even diamond, even attempt to do complicated stuff when they can't do simple stuff like cheese? You have to start with the easy stuff or you're NEVER going to learn the hard stuff.

Oh, and EVERY progamer knows some cheese of some sort. Even IdrA. Cheese is part of the game, deal with it. If you refuse to ever cheese, you're worse off than the people who do cheese every game.
So unless you see July posting in the threads about how to do aggressive play, I'd suggest everyone stfu and give this guy a chance.

On November 06 2011 16:50 Inters wrote:

First off, cheese is the best way to learn. I flogged around for a bit in bronze league when I first started playing, then I discoved that you could actually just build a spawning pool at 6 supply. Once that got accomplished, I used that as a stepping stone to gold league by learning how to multitask/macro by building only 6 lings at the start and trying to keep them alive as long as possible. I went from bronze scrub to diamond scrub in 100 games. Obviously not record breaking, but something to consider.
Why would anyone below plat, or hell even diamond, even attempt to do complicated stuff when they can't do simple stuff like cheese? You have to start with the easy stuff or you're NEVER going to learn the hard stuff.

People don't do that because it's a boring and shitty way to play this game. Only if you had some financial interest like scamming bad players out of some extra money or really put that much of a premium on the icon in your profile would you do this.

I got to high master by doing lame cheeses before I took the time to really try and improve. After 5-10 games of it it just wears on you doing the exact same build every game to every player. Ever since I stopped some months ago I've gotten much better at this game.

Unfortunately for me, all my old practice partners who just played standard and legit the entire time are competing at MLGs and trying to go pro, whereas I'm just another random mid master player (GM on SEA, but that's not a real server).

You could probably be a great player if you put the time you spend promoting yourself and cheesing into actually learning how to lay standard macro games. Instead, you continually try to forward this persona of "hey I'm the greatest and I cheese pros, pay me money and I'll reveal my secrets to you, a lowly silver player."

I can't wait to see you make it back to GM though, as I'm sure you will. Interspersed between two long streaks of cheesey all-ins will be 20-30 epic macro games of unquestionable skill. And I'm sure we won't get any replays of them.


Also don't send me 4 PMs me asking me to be nice to you when you shit on everything that this forum stands for in helping players improve by advocating your cheesy style and trying to pass it off as high level play. If you don't like being criticized for your actions, then change your actions.

On November 06 2011 16:50 Inters wrote:
Not sure why Tang is getting so much rap for teaching aggressive/cheesy play?

First off, cheese is the best way to learn. I flogged around for a bit in bronze league when I first started playing, then I discoved that you could actually just build a spawning pool at 6 supply. Once that got accomplished, I used that as a stepping stone to gold league by learning how to multitask/macro by building only 6 lings at the start and trying to keep them alive as long as possible. I went from bronze scrub to diamond scrub in 100 games. Obviously not record breaking, but something to consider.
Why would anyone below plat, or hell even diamond, even attempt to do complicated stuff when they can't do simple stuff like cheese? You have to start with the easy stuff or you're NEVER going to learn the hard stuff.

Oh, and EVERY progamer knows some cheese of some sort. Even IdrA. Cheese is part of the game, deal with it. If you refuse to ever cheese, you're worse off than the people who do cheese every game.
So unless you see July posting in the threads about how to do aggressive play, I'd suggest everyone stfu and give this guy a chance.

On November 06 2011 20:51 Flonomenalz wrote:

Lol no, just no.

You say you got to diamond by using cheese as a basis?

I guarantee you a person that got to diamond (like myself) using macro and proper mechanics as a basis would beat you in a best of X every single time. Cheese is not an efficient way to learn at all.

On November 07 2011 16:03 SpoR wrote:

Yes it is, because you have to start at the bottom to understand every step of the game. You use a macro build and make a barracks on X timing because of what? Cheese defense.

So a good way to learn is to cheese until someone beats it, then you see their build and you do the next build that defeats that build and use it until it too is defeated, until you just work yourself up into a macro based aggressive build or whatever.


People who blindly just copy macro builds because pros do it are missing all the information up the the point of that build. All the pros have that knowledge from giving and receiving cheese in order to refine these builds to the usually good builds that they are.

On November 06 2011 06:52 TangSC wrote:

I've received an incredibly positive response from the majority of the SC2 community and I know my efforts to help people improve will not be appreciated by everyone, but that's perfectly fine. I love what I do and I thoroughly enjoy my play style so comments like yours truly don't phase me. If you took the time to constructively contribute and help improve the quality of my guides and posts, I'd happily consider your suggestions. Your criticism, however, is filled with spite and does not help anyone. I wish you'd put your time into helping out the community by doing a lecture or writing TL threads rather than spreading such negativity.

On November 07 2011 16:03 SpoR wrote:

Yes it is, because you have to start at the bottom to understand every step of the game. You use a macro build and make a barracks on X timing because of what? Cheese defense.

So a good way to learn is to cheese until someone beats it, then you see their build and you do the next build that defeats that build and use it until it too is defeated, until you just work yourself up into a macro based aggressive build or whatever.


People who blindly just copy macro builds because pros do it are missing all the information up the the point of that build. All the pros have that knowledge from giving and receiving cheese in order to refine these builds to the usually good builds that they are.

On November 07 2011 16:25 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:


There's nothing wrong with executing a macro build poorly; as you work on your weaknesses, your macro will improve. Having poor macro is a very poor excuse for not trying to improve your macro.

The point is that even if you're bad, you can still play a macro style - you'll just be bad at it, which is okay, because your goal is to improve.

On November 06 2011 13:56 Marokeas wrote:
I'm only a gold player, so I can't comment on Tang's play, except by saying that he's better than I am.

On November 07 2011 15:06 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:



Skill is actually irrelevant to a strategy discussion; but if we want to go that route, I'm better than Tang is, and I say his play is awful. Also, you're perfectly allowed to comment on his play, just as even bronze leaguers can criticize Idra for losing mutalisks carelessly or attacking at a bad time.