|
If this doesn't warrant it's own discussion, then please close this thread and/or point me in the right direction.
The latest changes to WG only add 20 seconds (140 live, 160 on PTR, was 180 initially). With reallocation of chronoboost and slight build order alteration, you can still hit the 4gate timing with ease, and with just as much (if not more) force.
The new timings allow you to warp in 2 stalkers and 2 zealots on the 2nd wave, rather than 1 stalker and 3 zealots.
replay here : http://drop.sc/9609
What I did:
build:+ Show Spoiler +10 pylon
10 gate (scout, never returns)
11 assim (3 on gas)
12-14 nexus chrono x2
15 core (4x chrono)
18 gate
18 zealot
22 gate
22 stalker (stop probes at 20)
24 gate
24 stalker (2nd gate)
26 proxy pylon with scout
26 7th chrono on 2nd gateway to finish stalker.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8doTk.jpg)
6 stalkers and 1 zealot hitting the ramp
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gtVcN.jpg)
2nd wave warped in (2 stalkers, 2 zealots)
compare to the standard 6-stalker 1-zealot 4-gate
build:+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon (scout, never returns)
11 nexus chrono
12 gate
13 nexus chrono
14 assim (3 on gas)
17 core
17 pylon
18 zealot
21 warp gate research (chrono x3)
22 stalker
24 gateway
24 gateway
24 gateway
24 stalker (chrono 1st gate)
26 proxy pylon with scout
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UQKYs.jpg)
6 stalkers and 1 zealot hitting the ramp
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ybnnF.jpg)
2nd wave warped in (1 stalker, 3 zealots) NOTE: this screenshot is from a 2v1 custom.
My comments
I was really happy with the 40 second addition to wg research time. I'm undecided about the 20 seconds, as the standard 4-gate can't really make use of that final chrono boost, whereas the new one can make complete use of it.
Thoughts?
|
Very nice OP, very informational and very, very disappointing for PvP
|
While nerfing 4 gate, they buffed it. Only possible by Blizzard. Where fixing games is low priority.
/sarcasm....kind of...
But no really thats kind of funny that while trying to nerf it they made it better lol. Hope they figure out something that actually nerfs it like they intend. I already hate the current 4 gate tt
EDIT: Wow didn't even realize this was the strategy forums lol.
User was warned for this post
|
hmmm. thats really interesting. I wonder what blizzard will do with this info.
|
Well to hit as hard as before you're 10 times more all in with even lower economy. If you're seeing a 10 gate, you go standard 12-13 gate and it's a sure win from there unless you really fuck up.
|
I think it makes it much more obvious as to what you are doing, seeing a gateway and core with assimilator that early with that much chrono being saved up. The four gate is not going to go away, but it is very obvious what is going on. A 4wg push off of a 10 gate is really strong right now, but the chronoboosting will be a lot smoother now with this version. You will have to be diligently watching the assimilator to see if probes are pulled in lieu of a zealot only 4gate, and verify that it will be some sort of traditional zealot/stalker mix, as well as keeping track of how many chronos go onto the nexus. This makes the rush still as potent, but much easier to scout and prepare for than with an ambiguous 12 gate opening.
|
Yeah 20 second increase with chrono boost is near nothing. Some map differences account for that time difference.
|
From the replay it seems your timing is well 20 seconds slower. Your normal 4 gate hits at 6 minutes, this can be pushed to about 5:45 I think. The other picture is 6.20, which I assume may be pushed to 6:10 considering they way you slow your economy down with a 10 pylon 10 gate. So it hits 20 seconds slower? 
Edit: This 20 second difference means everything in the world in PvP. It is 1.3 less forcefields, meaning you won't run out of them until you get your immortal out, perhaps you may even get 2 immortals out. Since the 4 gate nerf was intented for PvP mostly this seems like exactly the thing to aim for.
|
Been through testing alot on PTR myself. Can get the 4 gate to hit at 5:57 at my best( warped in and running up ramp). This timing is still good on no ramp maps but gets destroyed by sentrys on a ramp. So easy to have enough units out by this point. I always did a 3 gate with whatever tech I wanted on ramp maps and it still works on GM level.
This change will make 4 gate almost obselete at decent levels of play. Not gone but its soo weak on ramp maps now
edit: my timing was also done with a 12 gate/ 13 gas and only 1 chrono on nexus, rest on WG. Lines all the gates and wg up perfectly. a 10 gate is pointless because it screws your already screwed economy and it actually makes getting the 4wg push slower. As shown by your pictures.
|
its good that 4gate isnt completely gone. you sacrifice a lot of economy for this with the 10pylon 10gate plus 4 chronoboost and that extremely early gas. now you can scout you're being rushed and react accordingly. which is good.
|
Also what Ravomat said rings true for the other races. Where 4 gate really is a non issue compared to PvP. If you can scout the intention of a 4 gate that early, either the protoss purposely disadvantaged his economy to trick you into thinking he 4 gated, or you just hold it with ease. Which people manage to do now while only scouting it leaving their base.
|
The problem with this is that by throwing down a gateway at 10 supply, you broadcast that you are going 4-gate. While I don't really consider myself qualified to theorycraft, I imagine ways to counter the 4-gate will emerge, if the opponent is given so much time to prepare.
|
United States17042 Posts
this is a good PTR op ; moved to strategy
|
On May 06 2011 10:35 Datum wrote:
The problem with this is that by throwing down a gateway at 10 supply, you broadcast that you are going 4-gate. While I don't really consider myself qualified to theorycraft, I imagine ways to counter the 4-gate will emerge, if the opponent is given so much time to prepare.
There are already ways developed to deal with a 4gate. It's just that it is relatively hard to scout and you can be easily mislead into thinking a 4gate is coming and be forced to overcompensate for something that never comes. Now Protoss actually has to sacrifice something to do such a strong rush.
|
On May 06 2011 10:35 Datum wrote:
The problem with this is that by throwing down a gateway at 10 supply, you broadcast that you are going 4-gate. While I don't really consider myself qualified to theorycraft, I imagine ways to counter the 4-gate will emerge, if the opponent is given so much time to prepare. Ways to "counter" it has emerged, it's only that they are ridiculously harder to pull off (in PvP). The other races have perfectly fine ways to deal with it (perhaps not a 5 gate cancel nexus as zerg), unless they don't see it coming until it hits their base. The normal 4 gate really is uneffective if you can scout it 30 seconds before the move out happens, with scouting it with thier first worker 4 gating should never work unless they mindgame the shit out of you (I fake faked faking a fake 4 gate, and you thought I only faked it  ).
|
On May 06 2011 10:37 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
this is a good PTR op ; moved to strategy
ah thanks, wasn't sure where it should go.
|
I believe that, simply with the pylon radius change, which I believe will remain reduced, the 4gate's power will be reduced. I don't think Blizzard intended the 4gate to disappear, but rather to simply make it a little bit weaker, which is what the pylon radius change did.
Very good OP and very informative
|
Why do people keep saying that 4 gate is just as strong if not stronger?
It was nerfed. It is strictly inferior to what it was before. It cannot be stronger.
|
^This
This 4wg is, at best, not only extremely recognizeable but also slightly weaker in its timing
|
you can still 13 gate and do it just as fast, can just cut your cboost on your stalker which will obviously let him scout you longer. pretty much same as 10 gate as you are broadcasting you are 4 gating, but the builds still as strong and hits the same timing. can get sub 5:40 warp gates up still with 10/13 gate builds. (20 probes/7 units)
the pylon nerf is the biggest thing as you won't be able to warp up top as easily.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
