We know that with the current normal 4g the protoss can no more reinforce his army around 7min30 (assuming the fact that the first attack is around 6min) mark because his economy is getting very low.

Can we get this information for the new 4g PTR pls ? I think this point is pretty important to know how strong is the "new" 4g attack. :o

iChau

United States1210 Posts

May 06 2011 12:23 GMT

#42

On May 06 2011 16:42 Valkola wrote:
4 gate wasnt a problem to start with. or maybe in casual play but pros have been finding ways to deal with it

By eco 4 gating or relying on luck to find proxy pylons.

Norway66 Posts

May 06 2011 12:56 GMT

#43

Meanwhile, in narnia:

4 gate wasnt a problem to start with. or maybe in casual play but pros have been finding ways to deal with it

Here in the real world 4gate is still an incredibly effective build that has made taking your nat lategame in PvP.

Markwerf

Netherlands3728 Posts

May 06 2011 15:33 GMT

#44

On May 06 2011 21:56 PD wrote:
Meanwhile, in narnia:

Show nested quote +

Here in the real world 4gate is still an incredibly effective build that has made taking your nat lategame in PvP.

4gate is not responsible for taking your nat lategame, the warpgate mechanic in general is responsible for that. There is just hardly any defensive advantage in the matchup.
Lately 4 gate is only problematic on the wide ramp maps as well, other maps aren't showing many 4 gates anymore at top level (not even neccesarily pro).

Verbal

Canada36 Posts

May 06 2011 19:06 GMT

#45

there's simply no way delaying something 20 seconds (even if crono'd this still amounts to 13 more seconds) can make something stronger. this is slightly more in and infinitely more scoutable. i'd feel very comfortable holding this with 2 or 3 gate robo or a 3gate as it is now more difficult to warp in on high ground. 13 more seconds to prepare to hold a ramp = win. esp if you know the rush if coming by seeing a 10 gate

Ruyguy

Canada988 Posts

May 06 2011 19:14 GMT

#46

Obviously the 4gate is going to be weaker with the 20 second nerf, but I'm disappointed in the face that PvP won't change that much after the patch.

Danglars

United States12133 Posts

May 06 2011 19:25 GMT

#47

20 seconds is all I need to make non-4warpgate builds more smooth in their defense. 1-2 more appropriated chronoboosts to WG tech that I can scout, much less economy behind the attack by comparison to the old 4 warpgate. Pylon radius making those pesky ramp pylons more snipable. What isn't there to like?

What's this with a new comparison to 10 gate? I am seriously astounded. I scout the 10gate and KNOW that a heavily sacrificial early attack is coming and can prepare accordingly. You don't complain about a 12gate 4warpgate attack and then, post-nerf, apply the same arguments to the 10gate. As with all those early game attacking builds, you make whatever sacrifices you feel you need to hold it off and enjoy an even bigger advantage. After reading all the comments today, I would suppose most of TL laymen would prefer an overnerf to "fix" all variations of 4wg PvP and leave our race crippled in the other 2 matchups. What was needed were small changes (20 seconds WG tech, -1 radius to pylons) and we got them.

I think I'll conclude with a "GJ Blizzard" for giving me a weaker attack to defend against, but not too weak to prevent me from applying heavy pressure to an economically or tech-greedy opponent.

Rici

Hungary11 Posts

May 11 2011 16:28 GMT

#48

On May 06 2011 10:17 michaelhasanalias wrote:Thoughts?

my thoughs? i cant really find words to describe how stupid you are

just make a suggestion on the official blizzard forum to buff marauders by giving them plus 20 second train time, that will help, i bet ! yes, 50 second train time on marauder instead of 30, is definitely a buff too, and would help much against 4gate

Number-J

United Kingdom52 Posts

May 11 2011 16:34 GMT

#49

This build is doable without the patch, in fact is better without the patch. the main reason this kindof four gate is not seen as an issue is because you go 10 gate, any competent player will be able to scout the fact that you went 10 gate and react accordingly as they know your either going to be aggressive or you have put yourself behind for no reason.

One of the major issues people had with 4-gate was that most protoss builds look identical until the stalker can chase away any scouts meaning a player had no idea if you were 1 gate Fe'ing, 3 gate sentry expanding, 2 gate robo'ing or indeed 4 gating.

What you have done is essentially say " i can still 4gate just as well, but only if i scream at my opponent that i'm going to do it "

Arch00

United States233 Posts

May 11 2011 16:36 GMT

#50

I thought the whole point was that with the pylon range nerf, you couldn't easily warp in units on his cliff ledge once you got vision. Now that it has to be much closer to the enemys cliff he can easily snipe it with stalkers/sentries while keeping his ramp forcefielded.

Hierarch

United States2197 Posts

May 11 2011 16:50 GMT

#51

It doesn't really matter if it's just as fast, the extra chrono on the core + the reduced pylon radius added together helps non 4 gate builds work a lot better than before. Also the 4 gating player won't be able to chrono a gate on the push so that's also a minor help for the defending player.

LOLingBuddha

Netherlands697 Posts

May 11 2011 16:59 GMT

#52

The main reason they made the changes is because the 4gate was too prevalent in PvP. it wasnt meant to nerf the 4 gate.

the timings can remain pretty much the same, but facing the 4 gate you have more options to respond with something other than a 4 gate.

also the pylon radius change is made to avoid easy warping up the ramp.

never did blizzard state that this patch was to NERF the 4gate because its timings were so imba.

Sermokala

United States13997 Posts

May 11 2011 20:24 GMT

#53

I think that for walled off people its still a hell of a lot weaker now that I can't do my franky imba warp onto their ramp easy

well not as easy anyway.

DarkPlasmaBall

United States44654 Posts

May 11 2011 20:28 GMT

#54

So I guess the main difference is you need to go 10gate instead of 12gate to get the warpgate tech done at the original time.

I don't think that would cut economy too much... to the point that it would be unusable, anyway. Thanks for have a very elaborate OP with an replay

I'll have to this build now!

Skyze

Canada2324 Posts

May 11 2011 20:39 GMT

#55

umm. 20 seconds + having to waste an extra chronoboost on it rather than on probes. Not only do you lose probes due to that chronoboost, you are cutting probes to get it at the same time.

So sure, you can have the same units at the same time in his base, but you'll be ~6 probes less. I dont think that is considered a "buff".

do people seriously believe this patch was a buff to warpgates?? seriously..??

Cloudshade

91 Posts

May 11 2011 20:49 GMT

#56

well i think u should realize that the build u do is 10 gate...so it actually nerfs the economy too... the fact you say that the time it comes out is the same....the whole point of 4 gate is to make a bunch of units at first then as u build more units u are not able to support the 4 gate any longer...so think about the fact that you have low econ....you won't be able to keep up constant pressure as much as before...so if i were defending this 4wg...i could just stall for a bit and i will know for a fact i can roll your army with my army

RoachyRoach

81 Posts

May 11 2011 20:53 GMT

#57

My IQ has dropped by reading this thread...

oDieN[Siege]

United States2905 Posts

May 11 2011 20:57 GMT

#58

Nice OP, very informative. I may give this a try and test out some stuff. I'm a little skeptical at stop probe production at 20 considering if it doesn't work, you pretty much lose.
(Enemy can just go 1-2 gate robo and get a quick immortal holding off with a little handful of gateway units and 1-2 sentries.