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If this doesn't warrant it's own discussion, then please close this thread and/or point me in the right direction.
The latest changes to WG only add 20 seconds (140 live, 160 on PTR, was 180 initially). With reallocation of chronoboost and slight build order alteration, you can still hit the 4gate timing with ease, and with just as much (if not more) force.
The new timings allow you to warp in 2 stalkers and 2 zealots on the 2nd wave, rather than 1 stalker and 3 zealots.
replay here : http://drop.sc/9609
What I did:
build:+ Show Spoiler +10 pylon
10 gate (scout, never returns)
11 assim (3 on gas)
12-14 nexus chrono x2
15 core (4x chrono)
18 gate
18 zealot
22 gate
22 stalker (stop probes at 20)
24 gate
24 stalker (2nd gate)
26 proxy pylon with scout
26 7th chrono on 2nd gateway to finish stalker.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8doTk.jpg)
6 stalkers and 1 zealot hitting the ramp
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/gtVcN.jpg)
2nd wave warped in (2 stalkers, 2 zealots)
compare to the standard 6-stalker 1-zealot 4-gate
build:+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon (scout, never returns)
11 nexus chrono
12 gate
13 nexus chrono
14 assim (3 on gas)
17 core
17 pylon
18 zealot
21 warp gate research (chrono x3)
22 stalker
24 gateway
24 gateway
24 gateway
24 stalker (chrono 1st gate)
26 proxy pylon with scout
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UQKYs.jpg)
6 stalkers and 1 zealot hitting the ramp
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ybnnF.jpg)
2nd wave warped in (1 stalker, 3 zealots) NOTE: this screenshot is from a 2v1 custom.
My comments
I was really happy with the 40 second addition to wg research time. I'm undecided about the 20 seconds, as the standard 4-gate can't really make use of that final chrono boost, whereas the new one can make complete use of it.
Thoughts?
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Very nice OP, very informational and very, very disappointing for PvP
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While nerfing 4 gate, they buffed it. Only possible by Blizzard. Where fixing games is low priority.
/sarcasm....kind of...
But no really thats kind of funny that while trying to nerf it they made it better lol. Hope they figure out something that actually nerfs it like they intend. I already hate the current 4 gate tt
EDIT: Wow didn't even realize this was the strategy forums lol.
User was warned for this post
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hmmm. thats really interesting. I wonder what blizzard will do with this info.
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Well to hit as hard as before you're 10 times more all in with even lower economy. If you're seeing a 10 gate, you go standard 12-13 gate and it's a sure win from there unless you really fuck up.
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I think it makes it much more obvious as to what you are doing, seeing a gateway and core with assimilator that early with that much chrono being saved up. The four gate is not going to go away, but it is very obvious what is going on. A 4wg push off of a 10 gate is really strong right now, but the chronoboosting will be a lot smoother now with this version. You will have to be diligently watching the assimilator to see if probes are pulled in lieu of a zealot only 4gate, and verify that it will be some sort of traditional zealot/stalker mix, as well as keeping track of how many chronos go onto the nexus. This makes the rush still as potent, but much easier to scout and prepare for than with an ambiguous 12 gate opening.
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Yeah 20 second increase with chrono boost is near nothing. Some map differences account for that time difference.
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From the replay it seems your timing is well 20 seconds slower. Your normal 4 gate hits at 6 minutes, this can be pushed to about 5:45 I think. The other picture is 6.20, which I assume may be pushed to 6:10 considering they way you slow your economy down with a 10 pylon 10 gate. So it hits 20 seconds slower? 
Edit: This 20 second difference means everything in the world in PvP. It is 1.3 less forcefields, meaning you won't run out of them until you get your immortal out, perhaps you may even get 2 immortals out. Since the 4 gate nerf was intented for PvP mostly this seems like exactly the thing to aim for.
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Been through testing alot on PTR myself. Can get the 4 gate to hit at 5:57 at my best( warped in and running up ramp). This timing is still good on no ramp maps but gets destroyed by sentrys on a ramp. So easy to have enough units out by this point. I always did a 3 gate with whatever tech I wanted on ramp maps and it still works on GM level.
This change will make 4 gate almost obselete at decent levels of play. Not gone but its soo weak on ramp maps now
edit: my timing was also done with a 12 gate/ 13 gas and only 1 chrono on nexus, rest on WG. Lines all the gates and wg up perfectly. a 10 gate is pointless because it screws your already screwed economy and it actually makes getting the 4wg push slower. As shown by your pictures.
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its good that 4gate isnt completely gone. you sacrifice a lot of economy for this with the 10pylon 10gate plus 4 chronoboost and that extremely early gas. now you can scout you're being rushed and react accordingly. which is good.
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Also what Ravomat said rings true for the other races. Where 4 gate really is a non issue compared to PvP. If you can scout the intention of a 4 gate that early, either the protoss purposely disadvantaged his economy to trick you into thinking he 4 gated, or you just hold it with ease. Which people manage to do now while only scouting it leaving their base.
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The problem with this is that by throwing down a gateway at 10 supply, you broadcast that you are going 4-gate. While I don't really consider myself qualified to theorycraft, I imagine ways to counter the 4-gate will emerge, if the opponent is given so much time to prepare.
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United States17042 Posts
this is a good PTR op ; moved to strategy
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On May 06 2011 10:35 Datum wrote:
The problem with this is that by throwing down a gateway at 10 supply, you broadcast that you are going 4-gate. While I don't really consider myself qualified to theorycraft, I imagine ways to counter the 4-gate will emerge, if the opponent is given so much time to prepare.
There are already ways developed to deal with a 4gate. It's just that it is relatively hard to scout and you can be easily mislead into thinking a 4gate is coming and be forced to overcompensate for something that never comes. Now Protoss actually has to sacrifice something to do such a strong rush.
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On May 06 2011 10:35 Datum wrote:
The problem with this is that by throwing down a gateway at 10 supply, you broadcast that you are going 4-gate. While I don't really consider myself qualified to theorycraft, I imagine ways to counter the 4-gate will emerge, if the opponent is given so much time to prepare. Ways to "counter" it has emerged, it's only that they are ridiculously harder to pull off (in PvP). The other races have perfectly fine ways to deal with it (perhaps not a 5 gate cancel nexus as zerg), unless they don't see it coming until it hits their base. The normal 4 gate really is uneffective if you can scout it 30 seconds before the move out happens, with scouting it with thier first worker 4 gating should never work unless they mindgame the shit out of you (I fake faked faking a fake 4 gate, and you thought I only faked it  ).
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On May 06 2011 10:37 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
this is a good PTR op ; moved to strategy
ah thanks, wasn't sure where it should go.
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I believe that, simply with the pylon radius change, which I believe will remain reduced, the 4gate's power will be reduced. I don't think Blizzard intended the 4gate to disappear, but rather to simply make it a little bit weaker, which is what the pylon radius change did.
Very good OP and very informative
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Why do people keep saying that 4 gate is just as strong if not stronger?
It was nerfed. It is strictly inferior to what it was before. It cannot be stronger.
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^This
This 4wg is, at best, not only extremely recognizeable but also slightly weaker in its timing
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you can still 13 gate and do it just as fast, can just cut your cboost on your stalker which will obviously let him scout you longer. pretty much same as 10 gate as you are broadcasting you are 4 gating, but the builds still as strong and hits the same timing. can get sub 5:40 warp gates up still with 10/13 gate builds. (20 probes/7 units)
the pylon nerf is the biggest thing as you won't be able to warp up top as easily.
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Nice job OP w/ figuring out timings and optimizing the build order w/ the nerf.
Question is...why did Blizz just make warp gate research = Stim?....w/e...
Just happy there are people on PTR trying to break it, which results in a better game.
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The thing is, before the patch, there were builds that could beat the 4gate. However, the pre-1.3.3 4gate denied scouting before dropping the 2nd-4th gates so you weren't really sure if it was a 4gate, so if the 6-minute mark rolls by and you didn't get attacked, he could have been expanding, teching, etc. Now, you'll have even more confidence that he's 4gating so you can go ahead and do your eco-4gate or 1gate robo and be completely confident.
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Sorry, I don't see the difference of why the new change can make it stronger? They both hit with 6 stalkers 1 zealot at the same time; is the 2 stalker 2 zealot vs 1 stalker 3 zealot the only difference?
If so, then it seems a better change because in order to do so you need to 10 gate (riskier/less-economical) and cut probes (do u cut probes for the "standard" current version?), aka in order to do the 6 stalker 1 zealot you have to consider a bigger risk and a very small benefit in reward.
Thanks for shraing!
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On May 06 2011 11:51 PJA wrote:
Why do people keep saying that 4 gate is just as strong if not stronger?
It was nerfed. It is strictly inferior to what it was before. It cannot be stronger.
Quoted for truth. You can achieve the exact same results as you did now by following the exact same build order. The only difference is that your Warpgate will come... Sooner. The way your economy lines up and all that will be exactly the same.
The 4gate was pretty much optimized for that matchup... And saying that making Warp Gate 20 seconds slower (slightly less with the extra chrono) and a reduced pylon radius makes the build magically better? I think not... Especially when you've also got a weaker economy. It makes absolutely no sense.
As others have posted, the additional time hasn't completely nuked 4gate strategies, but they make it MUCH more obvious and easy to prepare for... Because the opponent can't just "fake" the 4gate without putting himself behind. Even if the opponent goes for an eco 4gate, he may be down the 150 minerals for that extra gate, but you're down a ton more from the lower economy.
Also thing to note: Sentry build time has been reduced, and as a result, they will spawn faster and accumulate more energy right from the get-go. Just reducing the Sentry build time alone has an impact on 4gate, nevermind the nerfs they imposed on the build.
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Just gotta ask this - has anyone tried using a build order optimizer(or whatever version you like using of such a program) with the new PTR changes for doing a 4wg?
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Lol, your doing the 4 gate wrong dude.
the standard 6-stalker 1-zealot 4-gate hits at 5:45, not @6min
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there is no possible way to make the 4 gate stronger by making warp gate take longer to research >.<
with chrono boost all the way i believe its 10 seconds slower? does chrono cut time in half?
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On May 06 2011 15:34 Anomandaris wrote:
Lol, your doing the 4 gate wrong dude.
the standard 6-stalker 1-zealot 4-gate hits at 5:45, not @6min
you are aware that this is the PTR right? I'd say that unnerfed 4g hits at 5:45 tho.
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it's not the same, it just cannot... it's physically impossible. Let's say you chronoboosted all the time in the old version and the new version:
still makes the new 4gate ~13sec slower. Not saying this might not be enough for PvP, but add the Pylon nerf to this and I think PvP could develope really differently.
the real thread of highlevel 4gate is warping in units in the opponents base. with a Pylon only having 6.5 range and a stalker having 6range, in order to have 0.5range on the high ground, you have to get into stalker range when you build the pylon.
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4 gate wasnt a problem to start with. or maybe in casual play but pros have been finding ways to deal with it
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On May 06 2011 16:11 _Fiction_ wrote:
there is no possible way to make the 4 gate stronger by making warp gate take longer to research >.<
with chrono boost all the way i believe its 10 seconds slower? does chrono cut time in half?
Nope, chrono boost reduces the time by 33% (or as the tooltip says, increases speed by 50%) so it comes out 13.33 seconds slower if fully chrono boosted.
This build does seem interesting, but I don't think anyone will be caught off guard by it in PvP and the other matchups already have better tools to deal with 4 gate than protoss does. The slight increase in economic loss by going 10 pylon 10 gate makes it even more of an all-in. And it'd be so easy to scout. As people have mentioned, part of what made 4 gate so strong was that the length of time between revealing a 4 gate was occurring and when the attack is launched was very narrow. Now it's as wide as the Grand Canyon.
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On May 06 2011 16:11 _Fiction_ wrote:
there is no possible way to make the 4 gate stronger by making warp gate take longer to research >.<
It's possible in PvP if the defender relies on warpgate tech himself (very likely).
I doubt 4gate will be nearly as strong as it currently is though.
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So, your first stalker comes out at 4:56 at which point you have already made your 4 gates. This build is easily scoutable and thus very easy to defend. The magic of 4 gate currently is that you get a stalker out, then make 3 more gates. It is difficult to tell from scouting alone whether or not a 4 gate will occur. Basically this build cuts a few probes in order to get an easily scoutable 4 gate attack approximately 15 seconds later than normal.
If you see something different please let me know.
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Strength of original 4 gate : opens standard 12 gate and unscoutable after first stalker.
Your build : obvious 10 gate, and 4 gates before stalker chases out scouting probe.
When you KNOW 4 gate is coming for sure, its really not a problem to deal with.
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Wow but this one is even worse, I mean this seems really easy to hold and if it fails it's just over like before, there's no coming back.
I don't think this will be a too big of a problem just whiners that want the build removed for ever.
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Pardon my ignorance but when are the standard timings for a 3gate sentry expand or expand off of a 2 warpgate stargate build? With this 20 second delay on the 4gate push does this mean it would be safe for a Zerg to just build a full round of lings or roaches if you don't see the protoss move out or expand at the 6 minute mark? Alternatively if the map allowed for it and you wanted to plan for more economy but still be safe would it give a good timing to start planting spine crawlers around the 5:30 mark so that the 4 gate would be revealed just before they finished, else you could cancel them and pump all the recovered resources into drones?
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Sorry, but 10 gate 4 gates are possible even faster right now...Socke plays(played?) it occasionally. Earlier attack timing and even worse economy.
The fact that you need to 10 gate 4 gate in order to match a "classic" 12/13 gate 4 gate right now would only prove that this won't be a problem if you a) scout it properly and b) react properly by 4 gating more economicly.
Can't play PTR, so a somewhat theory-crafty response. But if you want to compare timings off a 10 gate 4 gate, you have to compare it to a...well....10 gate 4 gate that is possible right now.
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On May 06 2011 10:17 michaelhasanalias wrote:
you can still hit the 4gate timing with ease, and with just as much (if not more) force.
All I can say to this is... if you really believe that this now has "more" force, you don't have to wait for the patch. Just build a cyber core, then wait 20 seconds after it finishes before you start your warp gate research. Bam!
Back to reality though - don't compare a 10 gate to a 12 gate. Try a 10 gate on the current timings and compare to a 10 gate on the PTR. You won't find the PTR version stronger.
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This is a stupid post...
Gee in new patch 10 gate 4 gate is about as fast as a classic 12 gate 4 gate.... That doesn't mean the 4 gate is nerfed hard. 10 gate 4 gates are easy to scout and lose to any economical defense, say a 3 gate defense for example.
Reduction in sentry build time, lower pylon range and 4 gate being a bit slower, about 10-14 secs slower because you can CB it once more, makes a huge difference.
It's still possible the classic 4 gate maps, tal darim and scrap station, will still be some sort of 4 gate fest but at other maps it will be really easy to defend with non-4 gate builds now.
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We have to remember that the pylon radius being reduced also plays a big factor in pvp. You can 4 gate now a little slower, but you can't warp onto the high ground. The point is, it will be a little easier to defend, which is all that is needed.
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We know that with the current normal 4g the protoss can no more reinforce his army around 7min30 (assuming the fact that the first attack is around 6min) mark because his economy is getting very low.
Can we get this information for the new 4g PTR pls ? I think this point is pretty important to know how strong is the "new" 4g attack. :o
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On May 06 2011 16:42 Valkola wrote:4 gate wasnt a problem to start with. or maybe in casual play but pros have been finding ways to deal with it
By eco 4 gating or relying on luck to find proxy pylons.
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Meanwhile, in narnia:
4 gate wasnt a problem to start with. or maybe in casual play but pros have been finding ways to deal with it
Here in the real world 4gate is still an incredibly effective build that has made taking your nat lategame in PvP.
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On May 06 2011 21:56 PD wrote:Meanwhile, in narnia: Show nested quote +4 gate wasnt a problem to start with. or maybe in casual play but pros have been finding ways to deal with it Here in the real world 4gate is still an incredibly effective build that has made taking your nat lategame in PvP.
4gate is not responsible for taking your nat lategame, the warpgate mechanic in general is responsible for that. There is just hardly any defensive advantage in the matchup.
Lately 4 gate is only problematic on the wide ramp maps as well, other maps aren't showing many 4 gates anymore at top level (not even neccesarily pro).
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there's simply no way delaying something 20 seconds (even if crono'd this still amounts to 13 more seconds) can make something stronger. this is slightly more in and infinitely more scoutable. i'd feel very comfortable holding this with 2 or 3 gate robo or a 3gate as it is now more difficult to warp in on high ground. 13 more seconds to prepare to hold a ramp = win. esp if you know the rush if coming by seeing a 10 gate
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Obviously the 4gate is going to be weaker with the 20 second nerf, but I'm disappointed in the face that PvP won't change that much after the patch.
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20 seconds is all I need to make non-4warpgate builds more smooth in their defense. 1-2 more appropriated chronoboosts to WG tech that I can scout, much less economy behind the attack by comparison to the old 4 warpgate. Pylon radius making those pesky ramp pylons more snipable. What isn't there to like?
What's this with a new comparison to 10 gate? I am seriously astounded. I scout the 10gate and KNOW that a heavily sacrificial early attack is coming and can prepare accordingly. You don't complain about a 12gate 4warpgate attack and then, post-nerf, apply the same arguments to the 10gate. As with all those early game attacking builds, you make whatever sacrifices you feel you need to hold it off and enjoy an even bigger advantage. After reading all the comments today, I would suppose most of TL laymen would prefer an overnerf to "fix" all variations of 4wg PvP and leave our race crippled in the other 2 matchups. What was needed were small changes (20 seconds WG tech, -1 radius to pylons) and we got them.
I think I'll conclude with a "GJ Blizzard" for giving me a weaker attack to defend against, but not too weak to prevent me from applying heavy pressure to an economically or tech-greedy opponent.
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On May 06 2011 10:17 michaelhasanalias wrote:Thoughts?
my thoughs? i cant really find words to describe how stupid you are
just make a suggestion on the official blizzard forum to buff marauders by giving them plus 20 second train time, that will help, i bet ! yes, 50 second train time on marauder instead of 30, is definitely a buff too, and would help much against 4gate
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This build is doable without the patch, in fact is better without the patch. the main reason this kindof four gate is not seen as an issue is because you go 10 gate, any competent player will be able to scout the fact that you went 10 gate and react accordingly as they know your either going to be aggressive or you have put yourself behind for no reason.
One of the major issues people had with 4-gate was that most protoss builds look identical until the stalker can chase away any scouts meaning a player had no idea if you were 1 gate Fe'ing, 3 gate sentry expanding, 2 gate robo'ing or indeed 4 gating.
What you have done is essentially say " i can still 4gate just as well, but only if i scream at my opponent that i'm going to do it "
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I thought the whole point was that with the pylon range nerf, you couldn't easily warp in units on his cliff ledge once you got vision. Now that it has to be much closer to the enemys cliff he can easily snipe it with stalkers/sentries while keeping his ramp forcefielded.
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It doesn't really matter if it's just as fast, the extra chrono on the core + the reduced pylon radius added together helps non 4 gate builds work a lot better than before. Also the 4 gating player won't be able to chrono a gate on the push so that's also a minor help for the defending player.
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The main reason they made the changes is because the 4gate was too prevalent in PvP. it wasnt meant to nerf the 4 gate.
the timings can remain pretty much the same, but facing the 4 gate you have more options to respond with something other than a 4 gate.
also the pylon radius change is made to avoid easy warping up the ramp.
never did blizzard state that this patch was to NERF the 4gate because its timings were so imba.
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I think that for walled off people its still a hell of a lot weaker now that I can't do my franky imba warp onto their ramp easy
well not as easy anyway.
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So I guess the main difference is you need to go 10gate instead of 12gate to get the warpgate tech done at the original time.
I don't think that would cut economy too much... to the point that it would be unusable, anyway. Thanks for have a very elaborate OP with an replay I'll have to this build now!
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umm. 20 seconds + having to waste an extra chronoboost on it rather than on probes. Not only do you lose probes due to that chronoboost, you are cutting probes to get it at the same time.
So sure, you can have the same units at the same time in his base, but you'll be ~6 probes less. I dont think that is considered a "buff".
do people seriously believe this patch was a buff to warpgates?? seriously..??
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well i think u should realize that the build u do is 10 gate...so it actually nerfs the economy too... the fact you say that the time it comes out is the same....the whole point of 4 gate is to make a bunch of units at first then as u build more units u are not able to support the 4 gate any longer...so think about the fact that you have low econ....you won't be able to keep up constant pressure as much as before...so if i were defending this 4wg...i could just stall for a bit and i will know for a fact i can roll your army with my army
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My IQ has dropped by reading this thread...
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Nice OP, very informative. I may give this a try and test out some stuff. I'm a little skeptical at stop probe production at 20 considering if it doesn't work, you pretty much lose.
(Enemy can just go 1-2 gate robo and get a quick immortal holding off with a little handful of gateway units and 1-2 sentries.
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Hmm... Did the OP forget a pylon at 16?
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EPT
