EPTInspired by July's no queen FE baneling bust vs MVP in GSL5 ro32 game2.
This guide is derivative of this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201178
Strategy
The concept is simple enough--disguise hard early aggression as a slightly greedy economical opener. You open with a late pool/hatch and then follow-up with NO QUEENS and heavy roaches.
Unlike the dated 7RR or any 1-base roach variant, this is much more difficult to scout, much less difficult to execute, and offers very easy transitions both into and out of an economic playstyle.
The Build
(Optional early drone scout)
15 Spawning Pool
15 Extractor
16 hatchery
(Optional 0-6 Zerglings)
(Optional Metabolic Boost research)
@150min Roach Warren
Overlord x2 (Optional x1 if you made 4-6 lings)
Roach x8-11
* If you opt for 6 lings, you can allow meta boost to finish, and not impact your roach timing.
* Be sure you have OLs spotting the ramp. Due to your map control, you should be able to position two overlords (one on either side of his ramp).
Why This Works
When a player scouts, he would like to react to the information he sees. In this case, the terran opponent sees a late pool, a fast expansion, and early gas. For most players, this means economy and speedlings for defense.
However, the kicker is that by NOT getting the queen, you can start the warren as you chase away the scout. If you were building a queen, you wouldn't have the money for a warren, and because the terran player assumes you will make your first queen immediately, he leaves (or is chased out) feeling content that he saw everything he needed to see at that time.
Also, you can begin research on ling speed immediately so that he DOES see a wiggling spawning pool and he will reaffirm what he expected: economic FE and Queens/speedlings for defense. Due to the design of this build, you have roughly one minute to decide whether to allow meta boost to finish or cancel and use the gas for more roaches.
Also of vital importance, is that this build does not seek to exploit a timing window! Instead, it seeks to bait one of several reactions that are hard-countered by this roach aggression.
Further, if the Terran does turtle and happens to appropriate an awesome response, you've set yourself up for a nice contain that can delay his expansion considerably.
And lastly, because you have no queens during the opening minutes of this game and through your aggression, your APM and attention can be almost exclusively zoned in on microing your army. This is a tangible advantage in battle that other aggression builds don't have.
Adaptability
Because this hard aggression has an economic opener as its base, the decision is not to "abandon" this build but to instead transition INTO it. The deciding factor becomes only when you drop your Roach Warren (instead of making the initial Queen).
With a safe expansion already established, you can easily double queen and drone up to play the contain, or transition back into a standard game. You should deal some damage, but you aren't dead in the water if you don't.
This is definitely a cheese. It is most certainly NOT an all-in.
Terran Decision-Making and the Proper Response
Upon scouting 15pool/gas/16 hatch, The terran opponent should decide to continue with his 2-rax aggression, or transition into a 1-1-1/1-2-1 or FE build of his own. ONLY with the realization that there is NO queen (and instead a hidden warren once he leaves) can the very keen Terran player understand what's going on.
You may say "well I can just look at the hatch and tell." Watch this video and see just how close they truly are. Unlike other zerg buildings where production is obvious, the hatch movements are much less pronounced:
Vs. 2-rax aggression, any early roaches will counter this, but most players will be coin-flipping at best whether to aggress against a pool-first build, even one that is late and follows with a quick FE. If he aggresses, you will win in this trade off, but if he double bunkers after, he should be able to hold, so your best bet from 2-rax aggression is just go back into a normal game after using those few roaches to force him back. If he doesn't aggress, you should be able to overpower him, as he won't expect the roaches, and your lings can clear the map of scouting.
Vs. Blue Flame Hellion or any hellion harass, he is basically GG. In many of the replays, the natural response to this build is blue flame hellion harass. This means his tech lab ISN'T on his Barracks, and he can't make marauders OR research siege mode. In these cases, there is usually one tank with SCVs attempting to repair it, but it's simply no match vs the burst damage of 11 roaches.
Closing Comments
In my still limited testing, I do feel this is a tournament-worthy cheese. The skill level required to execute this is low compared with other cheeses, and the ease of transition both into and out of this build only increase its usability.
Please post any comments, questions, criticisms, and replays you have.
Replays
I will post more as I get them. And please feel free to submit your own (see below)
Master
vs 
Michael vs TheDoctor ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
FE Roach vs. 2-rax aggression Diamond
vs Michael vs ButTmanHD FE roach vs. proxy rax bunker contain vs Michael vs fur FE roach vs 1-1 reactor hellion vs Michael vs HotlipsTT FE roach vs 2-rax bunker contain FE vs Michael vs zeus FE roach vs 1-2 blue flame hellion vs Michael vs 커티스 FE roach vs 3rax Fast CC vs Michael vs Janu FE Roach vs 1-1 hellion + fast CC vs Michael vs DeathKnight FE roach vs 1-2 blue flame hellion vs Michael vs 아미노케토 FE Roach vs 1-2 BF Hellion vs Michael vs 아미노케토 FE roach vs 1-2-1 BF Hellion 2 vs Michael vs Ayjay FE roach vs 2-1 FE or something goofy vs Michael vs FallenAngel FE Roach vs. 2port bansheeUser-Submitted Replays:
+ Show Spoiler +
You can submit them without a replay site account to http://topreplays.com/Replays/Upload
Then use the "teamliquid forum text" to link.
On March 17 2011 22:33 lodidodi- wrote:
More replays :
ZvT
ZvT
ZvT
ZvT
ZvP
To comment the experience I've had with this opening, I'd say it defintly works on larger maps as well, if you're lucky enough not to get cross position on Typhoon peaks and Backwater Gulchas it might be hard to get an overlord there in time.
I failed against a protoss 4gate + forge on one base only because of poor choicemaking on my side, same against fast void ray with a single cannon behind the wall, attacking the cannon would have given me the win easy peasy lemon squeezy.
The other comment i would make concern "transitions" : against 1-1-1 opening, depending on terran's building placement, it's possible he succeeds to pop a banshee. You've normally killed enough scv's that you can stop attack, start queens at both expansion, stop the attack and play safely, it's freewin later on. Just be patient.
There is a game with baneling nest instead. I think i went 16 hatch 15 pool 14 gas, as Michael said in another topic about no queen FE, He thinks it's what July did in a GSL game against Nada. It did enough damage, and had to keep on playing normally knowing the win would come later. The spirit behind this is the same though, and it's pretty interesting : you will do damage so long you make good decisions (and this come with playing games with this opening), and know when to stop, start queens and droning.
More replays :
ZvT
ZvT
ZvT
ZvT
ZvP
To comment the experience I've had with this opening, I'd say it defintly works on larger maps as well, if you're lucky enough not to get cross position on Typhoon peaks and Backwater Gulchas it might be hard to get an overlord there in time.
I failed against a protoss 4gate + forge on one base only because of poor choicemaking on my side, same against fast void ray with a single cannon behind the wall, attacking the cannon would have given me the win easy peasy lemon squeezy.
The other comment i would make concern "transitions" : against 1-1-1 opening, depending on terran's building placement, it's possible he succeeds to pop a banshee. You've normally killed enough scv's that you can stop attack, start queens at both expansion, stop the attack and play safely, it's freewin later on. Just be patient.
There is a game with baneling nest instead. I think i went 16 hatch 15 pool 14 gas, as Michael said in another topic about no queen FE, He thinks it's what July did in a GSL game against Nada. It did enough damage, and had to keep on playing normally knowing the win would come later. The spirit behind this is the same though, and it's pretty interesting : you will do damage so long you make good decisions (and this come with playing games with this opening), and know when to stop, start queens and droning.
On March 20 2011 20:23 morimacil wrote:
Well the reason not to hatch first here, is that you can get your lings up slightly earlier, thus shoo the scouting SCV away slightly earlier, and thus start your roach warren slightly earlier, and so your roaches arrive at his base slightly earlier, and so on.
And by slightly earlier, I mean 45 seconds earlier.
at 14 drones and 200 minerals, you start the pool, instead of moving out, making a hatch, making 2 more drones, getting another 200 minerals, and then only starting the pool.
And really, I dont think hatch first makes it much harder to scout. I mean, 14 pool 15 hatch? No way in hell that this looks unorthodox, or will alert the terran to any form of cheese
On to some replays:
vs Morimacil vs mindover
vs Morimacil vs swArm
vs Morimacil vs RAYDEN
vs Morimacil vs RegoMadcheck
These guys are like at 1500-2500k masters, so nothing top notch, but not bronze either.
The good news is, my build works, kind of. I was able to decently transition to a macrogame with a giant advantage in 2 of them, outright killed my opponent in the other 2.
The bad? news, is that Im not sure the transition is really needed
In those games where I did transition out of roaches, and made more drones, and got lingspeed, and outmacroed them....well those games felt like if Id just kept making roaches instead of taking the giant advantage, and making a queen plus some drones, I probably would have just outright won.
The other thing is, against a 2rax build, its really good, but it feels incredibly aqward to try and transition out of it. Usually, he will have a second CC, and 3 rax up, so if you just kill a bunch of marines and SCVs, and then go home... with double mules, plus the rest of his SCVs, he can regain a macro disadvantage quite fast. Plus, with no lingspeed, its kinda trivial for him to make some marauders with his marines, and push you back, so if you drone hard, especially on close positions, it feels super risky. But if you dont, then with double orbital, he can catch up and outecon you pretty fast, at least thats the feeling I get. So in most cases, against 2rax I think that the best solotuion is to just keep making roaches for a while, its very hard for him to keep up anyway, since hes got the same amount of workers as you, but has to keep repairing with a lot of them, and your roaches are more costeficient than his marines if the marines exit the bunkers.
4-0 today with the build, 6-1 altogether, and the loss was the first time I used the build, where I got greedy and made only 2 lings as the OP suggested, he came back to scout with his SCV, and scouted a roach popping, he had time to make a techlab, a marauder, and a bunker, since it was on scrap station.
So Id say the build is pretty damn good :D
Now I just need to play against a terran that can actually hold this off without knowing that its coming beforehand, and then once that happens a couple of times, Ill be able to tell if its actually beneficial to try and have a way to transition out of it, or if its better to just all-in.
Also, since the opening is so normal, you pretty much could do it reactively. 14 pool 15 hatch, and if hes 2raxing on close positions, roach warren and go kill him.
Its kind of hard to try and think about using the build reactively when ive had no losses with it that I wouldnt have been able to avoid though, since so far, I cant really think of anything I would scout that wouldnt make me wanna do this. Even seeing a rax with a techlab on it, its going to be blueflamed hellions 90% of the time, so no need to worry about marauders...
Well the reason not to hatch first here, is that you can get your lings up slightly earlier, thus shoo the scouting SCV away slightly earlier, and thus start your roach warren slightly earlier, and so your roaches arrive at his base slightly earlier, and so on.
And by slightly earlier, I mean 45 seconds earlier.
at 14 drones and 200 minerals, you start the pool, instead of moving out, making a hatch, making 2 more drones, getting another 200 minerals, and then only starting the pool.
And really, I dont think hatch first makes it much harder to scout. I mean, 14 pool 15 hatch? No way in hell that this looks unorthodox, or will alert the terran to any form of cheese
On to some replays:
vs Morimacil vs mindover vs Morimacil vs swArm vs Morimacil vs RAYDEN vs Morimacil vs RegoMadcheck These guys are like at 1500-2500k masters, so nothing top notch, but not bronze either.
The good news is, my build works, kind of. I was able to decently transition to a macrogame with a giant advantage in 2 of them, outright killed my opponent in the other 2.
The bad? news, is that Im not sure the transition is really needed
In those games where I did transition out of roaches, and made more drones, and got lingspeed, and outmacroed them....well those games felt like if Id just kept making roaches instead of taking the giant advantage, and making a queen plus some drones, I probably would have just outright won.
The other thing is, against a 2rax build, its really good, but it feels incredibly aqward to try and transition out of it. Usually, he will have a second CC, and 3 rax up, so if you just kill a bunch of marines and SCVs, and then go home... with double mules, plus the rest of his SCVs, he can regain a macro disadvantage quite fast. Plus, with no lingspeed, its kinda trivial for him to make some marauders with his marines, and push you back, so if you drone hard, especially on close positions, it feels super risky. But if you dont, then with double orbital, he can catch up and outecon you pretty fast, at least thats the feeling I get. So in most cases, against 2rax I think that the best solotuion is to just keep making roaches for a while, its very hard for him to keep up anyway, since hes got the same amount of workers as you, but has to keep repairing with a lot of them, and your roaches are more costeficient than his marines if the marines exit the bunkers.
4-0 today with the build, 6-1 altogether, and the loss was the first time I used the build, where I got greedy and made only 2 lings as the OP suggested, he came back to scout with his SCV, and scouted a roach popping, he had time to make a techlab, a marauder, and a bunker, since it was on scrap station.
So Id say the build is pretty damn good :D
Now I just need to play against a terran that can actually hold this off without knowing that its coming beforehand, and then once that happens a couple of times, Ill be able to tell if its actually beneficial to try and have a way to transition out of it, or if its better to just all-in.
Also, since the opening is so normal, you pretty much could do it reactively. 14 pool 15 hatch, and if hes 2raxing on close positions, roach warren and go kill him.
Its kind of hard to try and think about using the build reactively when ive had no losses with it that I wouldnt have been able to avoid though, since so far, I cant really think of anything I would scout that wouldnt make me wanna do this. Even seeing a rax with a techlab on it, its going to be blueflamed hellions 90% of the time, so no need to worry about marauders...
On March 17 2011 18:30 lodidodi- wrote:
Here are replays from the games i played yesterday, systematically using this opening in all match-ups (input from a 2900 EU diamond player - mediocre level)
ZvP on Scrap Station / Phoenix opening
ZvP on Shattered Temple / forge 4 gate into void ray colossus
ZvT on Metalopolis / 2 barracks opening
ZvZ on Shattered Temple - Game transitions after No Queen FE roach opening
ZvZ on Xel'Naga Cavern - Game transitions after No Queen FE roach opening
Here are replays from the games i played yesterday, systematically using this opening in all match-ups (input from a 2900 EU diamond player - mediocre level)
ZvP on Scrap Station / Phoenix opening
ZvP on Shattered Temple / forge 4 gate into void ray colossus
ZvT on Metalopolis / 2 barracks opening
ZvZ on Shattered Temple - Game transitions after No Queen FE roach opening
ZvZ on Xel'Naga Cavern - Game transitions after No Queen FE roach opening
On April 07 2011 23:27 mizak wrote:
If you still want replays heres a masters game of myself on ladder. I cleaned up a double rax with factory pumping rine hellion. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/5959/Mizak_vs_Max
If you still want replays heres a masters game of myself on ladder. I cleaned up a double rax with factory pumping rine hellion. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/5959/Mizak_vs_Max
