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On March 20 2011 22:36 morimacil wrote:Michael, I love you for coming up with the idea for this build, but lets not get overboard here. It IS pretty close to an all-in. Yes, you can stop making roaches, and start droning, but you can also do that with a 6 pool, and thats still pretty all-in. Its not a "very economical opener that you can be extremely flexible with". Classic speedling expand would fit that description. This build doesnt. If anything, its a very strong agressive build, that has the option of falling back and catching back up in economy pretty fast and pretty safely should the attack fail. But since there is no way for you to be ahead in economy before the 7 minute mark, calling it "very economical" would just be wrong. Its really good as is. No need to try and make it look better than it is with wrong statements 
Mmm.... the reason I don't agree is because you don't even "commit" to this build until almost 4 minutes into the game. And unlike most "all-in" in the opening minutes, you don't have 2 bases already established.
You can very easily just make a couple lings, 3-4 roaches and from your scouting information, double queen + drone like a madman and be ahead or equal to anything your opponent could be doing economically.
You can abandon a 6pool too, but you don't have the ability to simultaneously make 2 queens and saturate two bases. I think if there's a weakness it's that this "transition" period can take upwards of 90 seconds if you mark from the start of queen production to the first inject pop (although you could have made 12 drones by that time)
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If you end up skipping the queen, making the roach warren, and making roaches, then you are behind economically.
It doesnt mean that you cant catch up, but you start off behind, and it would be strange to call it very economical when you start off behind.
If you dont make the roach warren and roaches, and instead make queens and drones... Then its just a standard 14p 15h. The things that set this build appart, skipping the queen, and making the roaches, are also what sets it behind in economy compared to other builds.
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I used this the other day in a 2v2 (ZZ vs TP) game and it seemed pretty good. The other zerg went mass slings on 1 base and it was a fast win.
You can get enough overlords to support the first batch of roaches, then when both hatches have 3 larva you can time it to get 6 roaches, and reinforce with 2 more roaches at a time as the larva spawns. I think you slowly run out of gas if still on 1 extractor but this is great as it forces you to drone up a little and afford 1 or 2 queens eventually.
Even though this is about ZT i think the 2 hatch roach could be good against protoss as well if you can contain them and put pressure on their ramp. I'll try to iron out a build that has mainly roaches at the start and then a delayed speedling push to deal with the stalkers, assuming the stalkers can be chased away to begin with using good OL scouting and roach numbers. Maybe something like roaches until 1 queen pops, all drones back on mins once metabolic is researching, and then when meta is done have the first larva injects worth of speedlings running in.
The risks are base trading with void rays, constant FFs on the ramp while they get a bigger econ lead or them not building a wall at the ramp (haha).
The thing that detracts from this against terran is that if the warren is scouted they can counter so easily with bunkers and marauders, I don't believe the protoss would have an easy time even if they scout what you are doing.
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United States7483 Posts
My concern is the general lack of larva due to missing a few potential injects. Wouldn't that mean having a lesser economy or less military units overall? Generally the advantage of going queen-less is faster tech, not econ, since you can get a lair quicker.
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I feel like you have enough larva for roaches and some spare for drones. This is early game pressure where you could nearly compare it to 2 hatches or 1 hatch and a queen.
Spawn larva creates 4 Larva after a duration of 40 seconds.
Hatchery at a rate of 1 larva every 15 seconds.
So really roughly you miss out on 1 larva every 40 seconds in exchange you get a less bumpy supply early game (roaches coming out like 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 instead of 1, 1, 5, 1, 1, 5).
Plus you have an expansion that changes how the opponent plays, and you can change course and macro hard with 2 queens if they give you long enough.
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this is really awesome. feels like a great defence against 4 gate as well.
awesome michael! and thanks July,
Edit: or would this be horrible for protoss?
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On March 22 2011 08:51 Whitewing wrote:
My concern is the general lack of larva due to missing a few potential injects. Wouldn't that mean having a lesser economy or less military units overall? Generally the advantage of going queen-less is faster tech, not econ, since you can get a lair quicker.
There are a few major things to note:
With 14 drones (3 on gas) you can 2 naked hatches can support constant roach production + slightly extra. You won't larva cap until longafter you've transitioned to something else, but it feels pretty close to 100%, and it's very easy to maintain.
If you queen after FE, you NEVER inject first, ever. You always want to tumor first, and theo nly advantage of tumor is for the queens, which you don't have, or to defend, which you aren't doing.
Generally, you are correct, and that's why I think this build is unique in that regard.
On March 22 2011 10:18 aneruok wrote:
this is really awesome. feels like a great defence against 4 gate as well.
awesome michael! and thanks July,
Edit: or would this be horrible for protoss?
I think it could be great against protoss, but you pretty much aren't going to win outright. You can very easily push a contain on 3-gate expand (and drain sentry FF while doing it), and I feel it is strong against 4gate, but not overly so, at least not without ling support, and you'd want to start queens and probably pump speedlings/a few drones once you suspect that 4gate is definitely coming.
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been playing on KOR ladder today and every terran opens fast reaper all of a sudden. Just 1 reaper really fucks this build, because even when you deal with it, the transition is already there for heavy marauder. It hits at the perfect time where you've already partially committed and are behind no matter where you transition from, and you can force a normal game at best, but may well lose to 1-base stim counter aggression if you've made too many roaches.
I'll post replays when I can.
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what if he scouts and notices your hatch isnt wiggling??? seems like after a while, terran will start scouting better, looking for the wiggle on the hatch, and this build will become much less potent.
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I am liking the defensive ability of this build in ZvZ too. if they don't go for super early lings you can get out enough roaches to defend whatever is incoming. There isn't a queen out for them to snipe early and the only thing they can get at are your drones which is where your roaches are spawning from.
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I just saw a couple of these replays, and it looks ridiculously strong... nice find 
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Interesting find, and that Ayjay replay made me giggle : he bunker rushes you, fails dramatically, and proceed to QQ on zerg all-ins and OP race.
That was a fun watch, thank you guy .
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What if Terran 2Rax, gets contained and FE's inbase?
I think you come out worse since Terran can just saturate/mule his econ up on one base faster than you can with a delayed queen.
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Replay
I tried this for the first time... I think it would only work against a hellion opening though.
Also, mules are imba. Good thing I still won in the end!
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On March 23 2011 12:55 BlazedHydra wrote:
what if he scouts and notices your hatch isnt wiggling??? seems like after a while, terran will start scouting better, looking for the wiggle on the hatch, and this build will become much less potent.
This is definitely something that needs to be added to the list of scouting information obtained before the SCV leaves. While it could simply mean there is a delayed queen, it may well mean there is some funny stuff going on.
If this build becomes more popular, this will be the key to scouting and successfully defending this build (or just opening with a reaper, which seems to be the trend on KOR lately in my ZvT matches).
On March 31 2011 21:05 Antisocialmunky wrote:
What if Terran 2Rax, gets contained and FE's inbase?
I think you come out worse since Terran can just saturate/mule his econ up on one base faster than you can with a delayed queen.
He is definitely behind if he tries for a one-base all-in. I would say that in most cases vs 2-rax FE, the terran is forced to lift or never put down his CC (depending on his timing) and just mule in-base. This is a win for me every time in that battle because he's mining out his main faster with no access to his nat. The added minerals can only be dumped into bio, and a lair / baneling nest is a sure counter to that.
He definitely can't out-macro a 2-base zerg, especially if you double queen when you push out rather than fully commit to the roach aggression.
On March 31 2011 15:22 zergrushkekeke wrote:
I am liking the defensive ability of this build in ZvZ too. if they don't go for super early lings you can get out enough roaches to defend whatever is incoming. There isn't a queen out for them to snipe early and the only thing they can get at are your drones which is where your roaches are spawning from.
Would like to try and keep this discussion only to this specific ZvT build. But for more general applicability of no queen FE roach builds, please post anything you want to talk about in this discussion thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201178
Personally I'd never pool past 14 on zvz, and almost never do anything other than 11pool, just because it's so much safer and there are so many 7pool all-ins and 15hatches that 11pool just build-counters.
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Have been playing around with this both versus terran and zerg, and it seems to work great, especially against the former. It also makes for an interesting and intense zvz. I am on gold and platinum level though. But this is extremely fun to do!
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This build is quite excellent! I have won many games thanks to it. I have actually used it a few times on protoss as well and it worked out.
However my friend found a way to counter me as terran. (note: he did not know i was using this build) This build relies heavily on the fact that your opponent does not find out about your roach warren, destroying the scouting SCV is not a problem. A major counter to this build is if a terran goes reaper scout first, this is rare but a problem for two reasons:
1. He will almost certainly scout out that you have a roach warren and or expo.
2. Since he scouted early he will already have a tech lab built given him plenty of time to get a marauder or two out before you can do decent rush damage.
3. He will also feel the need to get siege tanks earlier then usual.
Just be aware of this possibility.
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On April 07 2011 07:29 BossKey wrote:
This build is quite excellent! I have won many games thanks to it. I have actually used it a few times on protoss as well and it worked out.
However my friend found a way to counter me as terran. (note: he did not know i was using this build) This build relies heavily on the fact that your opponent does not find out about your roach warren, destroying the scouting SCV is not a problem. A major counter to this build is if a terran goes reaper scout first, this is rare but a problem for two reasons:
1. He will almost certainly scout out that you have a roach warren and or expo.
2. Since he scouted early he will already have a tech lab built given him plenty of time to get a marauder or two out before you can do decent rush damage.
3. He will also feel the need to get siege tanks earlier then usual.
Just be aware of this possibility.
I 100% agree with you. When I play terran, I almost always make an early reaper scout as soon as my tech lab is finished. Although most terran on SEA/NA don't seem to, almost every terran I've tried this against on KOR the pst week or two has opened with reaper scout, and I'd say it pretty much fucks this build completely.
Just the reaper by itself is going to cause a lot of damage if it's early enough since you have no queens, and your roaches won't be out that early.
That said, its exceedingly common to not do this, and when you scout that early tech lab you should opt to proceed as a normal 15p/g/16h game, allowing ling speed to finish, and pumping double queens.
If you don't, you'll end up seeing either marauder/hellion or reaper shenanigans that will mess you up pretty good.
I don't scout usually because I'm a very greedy player, and feel confident in my aggression that i'd rather have the extra 50-70 minerals, but it's admittedly a poor choice, and with this being more common, sending a 9 or 12- drone on these 4-player maps would be wise.
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Wow.
Looks viable,
Am going to definatley try that out.
Thanks :D
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EPT
