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On March 17 2011 17:48 morimacil wrote:
About the bancheese, I can see it going either way really.
The real question is, will the terran be able to get the bancheese up in time? It seems really close.
It sounds like it would be in favor of the terran, since it would take a while for the roaches to bust through the wall, and then still take some more time to kill any bunkers, and then actually destroy the starport before a banshee pops.
If 2 bansheese manage to pop off a double starport build, a terran who realizes what is happening would be able to just fly to your base, kill a large amount of drones before your 2 queens pop, kill the queens, and then kill off the rest of your stuff, while his base just flies around.
2 bancheese come out, and as a zerg doing this build, you would be 100% dead, even after forcing all his buildings to lift off, killing all his ground army, and all of his workers.
So this would really depend on timing a LOT, it would all come down to a few seconds, zerg realizing whats up (2port) and going straight for the starport kill ignoring any SCVs thrown his way, terran going straight for the zerg main, ignoring the fact that his base is being trashed.
It might depend on spawn positions too.
Its too hard to tell, since its so close, and both sides just have theorycrafting, banshee ppl saying they would get the bancheese out in time, zergs saying the roach timing would hit too early.
Perhaps incorporating an early scout that attempts to gas steal would be a good idea to deter 2port bancheese?
Has anyone actually experienced it? Could we see a replay instead of all the theoricrafting? Replay would help more than anything at this point, since without a replay, its all useless theorycrafting.
Here's a replay I just played vs 2port banshee. I don't know how well or poorly he executed it, but it went pretty much exactly as I expected.
 vs  Michael vs FallenAngel ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) vs. 2port banshee
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More replays :
ZvT
ZvT
ZvT
ZvT
ZvP
To comment the experience I've had with this opening, I'd say it defintly works on larger maps as well, if you're lucky enough not to get cross position on Typhoon peaks and Backwater Gulchas it might be hard to get an overlord there in time.
I failed against a protoss 4gate + forge on one base only because of poor choicemaking on my side, same against fast void ray with a single cannon behind the wall, attacking the cannon would have given me the win easy peasy lemon squeezy.
The other comment i would make concern "transitions" : against 1-1-1 opening, depending on terran's building placement, it's possible he succeeds to pop a banshee. You've normally killed enough scv's that you can stop attack, start queens at both expansion, stop the attack and play safely, it's freewin later on. Just be patient.
There is a game with baneling nest instead. I think i went 16 hatch 15 pool 14 gas, as Michael said in another topic about no queen FE, He thinks it's what July did in a GSL game against Nada. It did enough damage, and had to keep on playing normally knowing the win would come later. The spirit behind this is the same though, and it's pretty interesting : you will do damage so long you make good decisions (and this come with playing games with this opening), and know when to stop, start queens and droning.
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On March 17 2011 22:32 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 17:48 morimacil wrote:
About the bancheese, I can see it going either way really.
The real question is, will the terran be able to get the bancheese up in time? It seems really close.
It sounds like it would be in favor of the terran, since it would take a while for the roaches to bust through the wall, and then still take some more time to kill any bunkers, and then actually destroy the starport before a banshee pops.
If 2 bansheese manage to pop off a double starport build, a terran who realizes what is happening would be able to just fly to your base, kill a large amount of drones before your 2 queens pop, kill the queens, and then kill off the rest of your stuff, while his base just flies around.
2 bancheese come out, and as a zerg doing this build, you would be 100% dead, even after forcing all his buildings to lift off, killing all his ground army, and all of his workers.
So this would really depend on timing a LOT, it would all come down to a few seconds, zerg realizing whats up (2port) and going straight for the starport kill ignoring any SCVs thrown his way, terran going straight for the zerg main, ignoring the fact that his base is being trashed.
It might depend on spawn positions too.
Its too hard to tell, since its so close, and both sides just have theorycrafting, banshee ppl saying they would get the bancheese out in time, zergs saying the roach timing would hit too early.
Perhaps incorporating an early scout that attempts to gas steal would be a good idea to deter 2port bancheese?
Has anyone actually experienced it? Could we see a replay instead of all the theoricrafting? Replay would help more than anything at this point, since without a replay, its all useless theorycrafting. Here's a replay I just played vs 2port banshee. I don't know how well or poorly he executed it, but it went pretty much exactly as I expected. vs Michael vs FallenAngel vs. 2port banshee
Hm, well it still looks very tight, but its a lot closer than Id like.
If hed made the tech lab on his factory, he definitely could have started his banshee from the first starport before the roaches arrived.
And if hed used the rax to make a tech lab for the second starport, or got a slightly earlier second gas and cut an SCV, and then made both the tech labs on the factory before the starports finished (since he didnt make the standard scouting hellion), then he could have started both banshees before the depot fell. Or if hed had a marine scouting around the map and delayed the overlrd a bit, he could have delayed the bust long enough to have the 2 bansheese underway.
After that, its just a matter for him to delay with his marines and SCVs until the bansheese finish, and rush them towards the zerg while lifting off.
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly.
However, any mistep by terran would cost him the game, so at anything below masters, it should kill bancheese without any problems.
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I haven't countered this build or watch the replays yet, but from the build order and timing, it seems to be a nice build. As a Terran, I must say that if you indeed have 8 roach pressure around 6 minutes mark, you basically deny most of Terran conventional aggression, and even cripple him hard.
- Bunker rush is weak against pool first, following by roaches.
- greedy expand with bunker is basically dead.
- if the Terran go banshee, he should barely make it. I don't know if bunker can defend against roach push with overlord spotting though. imo banshee strat is weak against this build. You literally have to pull most of your scv to repair the bunker if the roaches focus fire it. And even if the Terran have banshee, Zerg should be able to have queens with 3,4 drone lost at max.
- Blue flame hellion is weak.
I just wonder about hellion+marauder push strat. Normally when the Terran go reactor hellions, he usually switch to tank and expand when he sees roaches. But there's the build that Terran go 2 rax 1 fact on 1 base and pump out marauders+hellion and do a timing push. I don't know this strat can stop it or not. Someone please play and upload a replay :p.
Overall, this is a nice strat. It basically counter a lot of Terran aggression build. Of course if Terran goes with the boring turtle rax expand without putting any pressure, he has no problem defending this strat (I don't think defending is countering though), but hey that's the whole point of it, no pressure = win.
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On March 18 2011 00:42 canikizu wrote:
I haven't countered this build or watch the replays yet, but from the build order and timing, it seems to be a nice build. As a Terran, I must say that if you indeed have 8 roach pressure around 6 minutes mark, you basically deny most of Terran conventional aggression, and even cripple him hard.
- Bunker rush is weak against pool first, following by roaches.
- greedy expand with bunker is basically dead.
- if the Terran go banshee, he should barely make it. I don't know if bunker can defend against roach push with overlord spotting though. imo banshee strat is weak against this build. You literally have to pull most of your scv to repair the bunker if the roaches focus fire it. And even if the Terran have banshee, Zerg should be able to have queens with 3,4 drone lost at max.
- Blue flame hellion is weak.
I just wonder about hellion+marauder push strat. Normally when the Terran go reactor hellions, he usually switch to tank and expand when he sees roaches. But there's the build that Terran go 2 rax 1 fact on 1 base and pump out marauders+hellion and do a timing push. I don't know this strat can stop it or not. Someone please play and upload a replay :p.
Overall, this is a nice strat. It basically counter a lot of Terran aggression build. Of course if Terran goes with the boring turtle rax expand without putting any pressure, he has no problem defending this strat (I don't think defending is countering though), but hey that's the whole point of it, no pressure = win.
Hellion-Marauder works well vs this build IMO. I played vs someone who did that and although I won, it wasn't because of a strat counter but just superior execution imo.
At that though, I really feel like hellion/marauder is a horrible strat to do vs pool/+1hatch, as that's trademark speedling defense, which would crush hellion/marauder.
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On March 17 2011 23:35 morimacil wrote:
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly.
So let me get this right, you just saw a replay where a 2 port banshee is like 100s late to defend this, and your conclusion is a "flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily".
Sorry no, not even close, at least from the replay.
In the replay, the terran loose his supply depot 5second before even starting the banshee.
In the replay, michale forgot to make lings to deny scouting, so the roach warren is 5s early. Let's imagine, you don't need a reactor to make banshee, so the banshee can start 25s sooner, and the roach warren is delayed by 5s. The banshee build time is 100s. That leaves 75s to the roaches (after killing the first supply depot) to do damage against only 5 marines... Even if your starports don't get sniped during that time, there won't be much left in your base.
And the bottomline is: it takes 35s+30s to get spore colonies up, and 50s to make queens. The zerg will be more than ready to kill 2 puny banshees.
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I really do like this but I have one major problem with it and its that none of the games are past 10 minutes and you never build more than 15 drones but at the end of the game every time you have ~300 minerals and no queens on the way for the later game with 3 larva at each hatchery i feel this could be much stronger if you stopped at maybe 8-10 roaches and made only drones while attacking then transition into something. but as it is now its just another roach rush
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On March 18 2011 00:59 Elean wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 23:35 morimacil wrote:
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly. So let me get this right, you just saw a replay where a 2 port banshee is like 100s late to defend this, and your conclusion is a "flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily". Sorry no, not even close, at least from the replay. In the replay, the terran loose his supply depot 5second before even starting the banshee. In the replay, michale forgot to make lings to deny scouting, so the roach warren is 5s early. Let's imagine, you don't need a reactor to make banshee, so the banshee can start 25s sooner, and the roach warren is delayed by 5s. The banshee build time is 100s. That leaves 75s to the roaches (after killing the first supply depot) to do damage against only 5 marines... Even if your starports don't get sniped during that time, there won't be much left in your base. And the bottomline is: it takes 35s+30s to get spore colonies up, and 50s to make queens. The zerg will be more than ready to kill 2 puny banshees.
Well he was only 5 seconds away from starting the banshee, and his build was quite sloppy.
A banshee also only take 60 seconds to build, not 100.
Queens were not even started yet, and 2 bansheese easily take care of 2 queens.
even 2 bansheese against 2 queens, and 3 spores, since the bansheese have the same range as spores, with good micro, you can still do a ton of damage, and the zerg on 13-14 drones doesnt really have the economy to make 2 queens and an evo and 3 spores anyway..
Sure enough, the terran would lose all his SCVs, and marines, and supply depots, and addons, and generally wouldnt really be able to actually defend, but if 2 bansheese start, the zerg is pretty much dead in that scenario. even if he does manage to survive by turning all his drones into spores, and getting 2 queens asap, the terran still has 2 bansheese, a floating orbital, a rax, a factory, and 2 starports. Basically, mules+ a full tech tree vs a zerg on 1 base and T1, with like 5 drones. So then its not even close even if the zerg does manage to survive the 2 bansheese.
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Wow, this is quite scary and very easy to execute, but most of your opponents played very sloppy. I think a well executed 1 - 1 reactor hellion should be able to beat this. The replay in which your opponent does that it is like 20 seconds too late and you didn't even have lings out before, so he could have easily scouted your RW with his initial SCV.
If anyone wants to test it I'm available on EU server  Bommes.403
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can't believe i haven't seen this thread before
great work michael!
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On March 18 2011 03:13 morimacil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2011 00:59 Elean wrote:On March 17 2011 23:35 morimacil wrote:
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly. So let me get this right, you just saw a replay where a 2 port banshee is like 100s late to defend this, and your conclusion is a "flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily". Sorry no, not even close, at least from the replay. In the replay, the terran loose his supply depot 5second before even starting the banshee. In the replay, michale forgot to make lings to deny scouting, so the roach warren is 5s early. Let's imagine, you don't need a reactor to make banshee, so the banshee can start 25s sooner, and the roach warren is delayed by 5s. The banshee build time is 100s. That leaves 75s to the roaches (after killing the first supply depot) to do damage against only 5 marines... Even if your starports don't get sniped during that time, there won't be much left in your base. And the bottomline is: it takes 35s+30s to get spore colonies up, and 50s to make queens. The zerg will be more than ready to kill 2 puny banshees. Well he was only 5 seconds away from starting the banshee, and his build was quite sloppy. A banshee also only take 60 seconds to build, not 100. Queens were not even started yet, and 2 bansheese easily take care of 2 queens. even 2 bansheese against 2 queens, and 3 spores, since the bansheese have the same range as spores, with good micro, you can still do a ton of damage, and the zerg on 13-14 drones doesnt really have the economy to make 2 queens and an evo and 3 spores anyway.. Sure enough, the terran would lose all his SCVs, and marines, and supply depots, and addons, and generally wouldnt really be able to actually defend, but if 2 bansheese start, the zerg is pretty much dead in that scenario. even if he does manage to survive by turning all his drones into spores, and getting 2 queens asap, the terran still has 2 bansheese, a floating orbital, a rax, a factory, and 2 starports. Basically, mules+ a full tech tree vs a zerg on 1 base and T1, with like 5 drones. So then its not even close even if the zerg does manage to survive the 2 bansheese.
I agree that banshees are pretty good against any early roach aggression. I've had several frustrating games where they base trade with 2 fast banshees vs a queen while my roaches are killing everything that doesn't just lift off. Then the zerg is stuck with roaches that cant hit air units vs banshees that can kill anything left without being touched.
Like with the pooling larva for roaches on 1 base you need to transition to mutas quickly, since mutas and roaches aren't cheap I guess you might be able to sustain that without queens (which would suck protecting 2 bases vs mobile banshees). That's assuming you do enough damage with the roach push to make up for your gimpy economy.
I'll give this build a try, feels pretty bad that my ZP build is a 3RR, and now my only terran builds are cheesey roach openings too.
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On March 18 2011 01:51 Sega92 wrote:
I really do like this but I have one major problem with it and its that none of the games are past 10 minutes and you never build more than 15 drones but at the end of the game every time you have ~300 minerals and no queens on the way for the later game with 3 larva at each hatchery i feel this could be much stronger if you stopped at maybe 8-10 roaches and made only drones while attacking then transition into something. but as it is now its just another roach rush
I think this is a great and insightful comment honestly.
The replays I posted are of me executing it, and I personally try to end games as quickly as possible, and that's just (a flaw in?) my personality. So, yes, I think you could do something like 6 lings, speed, 8 roaches, then double queen whe you push and macro hard.
It's quite possible you could secure a huge advantage in doing so. The issue with that is that it prolongs the game when I feel I can just end it outright. The money gets high because I concentrate on microing completely so that I can deal the most possible damage, with the intention of ending the game right then and there if at all possible. Yes, I do think this is a flaw in my own gameplay.
Perhaps the prudent player could use this strategy merely to secure a quick and decisive advantage in the opening minutes of the game.
You can easily secure a contain until the opponent makes a banshee, so if he hadn't planned this, you can delay his expansion by a few minutes and almost force him into 1-base bio (due to gas constraint).
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I think games that go for more than 10 minutes should be where they see whats up and do something that makes you bail from the attack. If everything is going well and you are smashing it then why work on econ for later instead of ending it. If they cut scvs, pump marauders and turtle up on 1 base then you should be thinking econ.
Reading the terran cheese thread, they mentioned moving the rax to the bottom of the ramp was worth it since the rush distance is a few seconds shorter.
Could you proxy the hatch somewhere sneaky, or do you need it scouted at the nat, or close enough to get roaches to your main at the start?
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Did no one watch day9 funday monday when Day9 was like holy shit, going without a queen could literally be better in some cases then getting an early queen. This was like 5 months ago, lol. The second I heard that I was like, fuck I wish I knew how to play Z, I'd rock that shit.
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On March 18 2011 03:13 morimacil wrote:
A banshee also only take 60 seconds to build, not 100.
Oh true, does not change the issue though.
Queens were not even started yet, and 2 bansheese easily take care of 2 queens. [...]zerg on 13-14 drones doesnt really have the economy to make 2 queens and an evo and 3 spores anyway
Queens could have been started, he had enough ressources, and with the unspent gas that could have been minerals, he also had enough for the evo chamber. With his economy he can make 5 spore colonies immediately after the evo chamber.
Also, in the replay he keeps making slow roaches untill the end.
Speedligns are better for reinforcement. I would put drones off gas, and make lings & queens instead of the 4 last roaches that are too late to do anything anyway. With 2 queens it's much less all-in, and it leaves the possibility to defend banshees with 4 queens.
On the other hand, if he only makes roaches, he can skip ling speed, that's enough ressources for 1 free queen full of energy in addition to the 2 built in reation to the starport.
a floating orbital, a rax, a factory, and 2 starports. Basically, mules+ a full tech tree vs a zerg on 1 base and T1, with like 5 drones. So then its not even close
Yes, it's not even close, because there are still 10 roaches preventing the OC to land.
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Well i finally tried, and got 7 wins out of 7 against Master Terrans on the ladder, and 1-2 against Protoss. To me, it`s not very viable, i got a win because of the control i carry from BW, but the two guys i`ve lost to were actually descent, so i dont think that it exactly works against Protoss.
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On March 18 2011 12:04 MERLIN. wrote:
Did no one watch day9 funday monday when Day9 was like holy shit, going without a queen could literally be better in some cases then getting an early queen. This was like 5 months ago, lol. The second I heard that I was like, fuck I wish I knew how to play Z, I'd rock that shit.
which daily was that? must have missed it.
On March 18 2011 12:04 zergrushkekeke wrote:
I think games that go for more than 10 minutes should be where they see whats up and do something that makes you bail from the attack. If everything is going well and you are smashing it then why work on econ for later instead of ending it. If they cut scvs, pump marauders and turtle up on 1 base then you should be thinking econ.
Reading the terran cheese thread, they mentioned moving the rax to the bottom of the ramp was worth it since the rush distance is a few seconds shorter.
Could you proxy the hatch somewhere sneaky, or do you need it scouted at the nat, or close enough to get roaches to your main at the start?
Hmm.......
I think if you decide to proxy a hatch, you HAVE to scout first. Here's what I see:
a) Terran decides to 2-rax. He scouts late pool and then hatch and decides to push you. Because of this push, he has time to turtle and hold the aggression, even though he lost. His poor choice was dictated by his poor scouting but it works in his favor.
b) Terran decides to 2-rax. He scouts late pool and hatch and decides it's best to play it safe since he's guaranteed to lose on this exchange if zerg is competent. He plays for the speedling harass or expands (safely? :troll and gets overwhelmed by roaches and loses the game.
c) Terran decides to 2-rax. He scouts no expansion and just defends and expands. He is overrun by roaches and loses the game.
d) Terran decides to go standard 1-rax OC and upon scouting hatch decides for hellion harass. He loses from build order win.
e) Terran decides to go standard 1-rax OC and upon scouting NO hatch decides to prepare for 1-base aggression, expanding slightly later, and easily holds. Your proxy hatch is doomed as soon as he finds it.
If you can get away with it it will definitely hit harder though, but then there is really no transitioning away from it. on XNC you could take his 5th, and maybe on ST you could take your 3rd if it's cross position... I don't know how I feel about it, but it sounds interesting and worth considering.
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Im doing this against every terran I meet on the ladder, and its definitely very very good.
Now the next step will be that terrans will hang around the main with their initial SCV instead of going to block the hatch. It wuld be nice to see if there is some way of getting a pair of lings first, and then the roach warren, but still managing to get there on time to do damage with the roaches.
After that, terrans will figure out a safe build to do that can hold this off.
Thats good.
We need to keep doing this build until terrans find a way to counter it reliably, and then force them to open that way every game.
A marauder opening for example seems like it would work really well against the roach opening. Personally, I really wouldnt mind it if terran was forced to open up with marauders or a bunker just because if they dont, they risk dying to roaches, similar to how zergs are forced to open with lingspeed or roaches, because if we dont, we risk dying to pressure.
Using this cheese repeatedly to force terrans to actually play it safe in the early game, and force them into something specific, will do a lot to ease the pain as zerg, and overall evolve the matchup.
In the end, hopefully it will be somewhat similar to PvT, where no matter how the toss opens up, they are forced to get a robo in case of bansheese, thus bottlenecking all PvT builds through the threat of agression.
Lets bottleneck TvZ builds! :D
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On March 18 2011 21:49 morimacil wrote:
Im doing this against every terran I meet on the ladder, and its definitely very very good.
Now the next step will be that terrans will hang around the main with their initial SCV instead of going to block the hatch. It wuld be nice to see if there is some way of getting a pair of lings first, and then the roach warren, but still managing to get there on time to do damage with the roaches.
After that, terrans will figure out a safe build to do that can hold this off.
Thats good.
We need to keep doing this build until terrans find a way to counter it reliably, and then force them to open that way every game.
A marauder opening for example seems like it would work really well against the roach opening. Personally, I really wouldnt mind it if terran was forced to open up with marauders or a bunker just because if they dont, they risk dying to roaches, similar to how zergs are forced to open with lingspeed or roaches, because if we dont, we risk dying to pressure.
Using this cheese repeatedly to force terrans to actually play it safe in the early game, and force them into something specific, will do a lot to ease the pain as zerg, and overall evolve the matchup.
In the end, hopefully it will be somewhat similar to PvT, where no matter how the toss opens up, they are forced to get a robo in case of bansheese, thus bottlenecking all PvT builds through the threat of agression.
Lets bottleneck TvZ builds! :D
Would you post some replays if you have them?
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EPT
