EPT[G] ZvT: No Queen FE Roach - Page 2
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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antilyon
Brazil2546 Posts
On March 16 2011 23:23 michaelhasanalias wrote: The push can come anywhere between ~5:30 and 6:30. This depends on exactly how you execute it, and when you decide to engage. If there's less stuff, you engage earlier with fewer roaches while the others are en route. TheDoctor (3600 master) said he thinks the correct response to this would just be double bunkers (off 2-rax) but that he never does that because he's cocky (which is why he felt he lost). If they hold the push, it won't be by a lot, and it will be by turtling. There isn't really a way to safely expo with this number of roaches on the field unless you went marauder, but given the game situation, it's exceedingly unlikely you had the fortitude to manage a marauder heavy army composition. While you find a way to safely expand (a defensive banshee, siege mode, marauder + stim bio ball less so), Z just double queens and drones up, or goes for the all-in (the former is more likely I think). I can't recall which replay(s) offhand where this happened, but I was definitely NOT behind when the attack failed. I attacked, did a fair trade of damage to roaches lost, and we were basically even afterward. While I think it would be wrong to call this something other than cheese, it is most certainly NOT an all-in by any standard. You have a secure expansion before you even attack and with your standing army you can quickly secure a large boom in economy. Someone told me my posts are too cerebral or information-filled, and so there aren't as many of the usual questions to ask. Perhaps if I just limit the information initially, I can get lots of "your idea sucks because of X" and build up some pages of adament posters I piss off.  Thanks, i'll ask my friend to try against me later and try to find holes in this build. If i find any, i'll post here to help developing this build. But it seems like a really stable build now that you explained it. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 17 2011 00:33 wackedupwacko wrote: Actually roaches are an excellent counter to marines in smallish numbers. I also reread your timings, 5-6minute mark is a very dangerous timing, mainly because if the terran is doing a timing thats when his will come. if its stim you can bet theres marauders in it, if its banshees... well auto lose. The reason builds like 3,5,7 roach rushes are so good and powerful is that they all hit BEFORE this first timing by terran. Yeah I edited my post to explain better (but replied earlier): when the marines are inside their wall and/or on top of a ramp, they have a considerable advantage against roaches. They will also have, or the ability to construct, a bunker, and most likely marauders as well. While they may attack before the terran pushes out, that is just as bad of a scenario as it is a good scenario, since the terran gets fast re-inforcement, a choke point advantage with range advantage, and potential bunkers. Another issue is that this is NOT a 7 RR. 7RR are fast, and the most popular one is essentially the most efficient one known. When you build a hatchery after pool, that sort of efficiency goes down the drain. The timing that was once barely or ample time before most terran attack will turn into a too late or barely enough timing. Like I agree it could be a very effective trick, which can win games, but because of that it's inefficient. | ||
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majestouch
United States395 Posts
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 17 2011 00:43 majestouch wrote: or you could 7rr and expand as you push out and hit at a better time. when i 7rr people think i expand seeing that I make 2 lings to push away the scout and send a drone down "acting like" i'm going to expand at that moment. Yeah although I think that must be overly popular, because terrans seem to always send a 2nd SCV scout afterwards, at least at medium to high level. when their second scv gets by (which it will unless you built like 8 zerglings, or 6 zerglings and were lucky/good), they will see whether you've expanded or not, which will decide their reaction. It is why the hatch feint is so effective. They will not be able to get into your base (unless you're terrible), so they will decide based off what they can see, the expo. | ||
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
On March 17 2011 00:27 Xapti wrote: It's a nice concept of strategy, but it just relies too much on trying to fool an opponent as opposed to having a strong economic or offensive build. I don't think it's something I'd be interested in. I also think that if the terran just goes mass marines (which is logical considering they are supposed to think zerg is going economy, right?) zerg might get stomped because roaches do not do very good against marines, especially when they have to break a ramp which can have a bunker, and tech lab which could start producing marauders. Considering how uneconomical the build appears to me, it makes for an extra blow against zerg in situations where the terran plans for low tier aggression (namely marines). This build is basically a 1 base roach build except for the fact that you can transition into a macro game much easier. You normally get a 150 mineral queen anyways, so you're basically just using your extra hatch as an expensive queen. But the difference is when you decide to go macro, you already have your expo up, you just have to saturate it. I personally think 1 base marines would get roflstomped by this build. This is really weak to air, but dropping an preventative evo early on would probably be a decent investment. That way if you scout a banshee, you can just drop a couple spores and be fine. if he does go air though, your roach timing attack is going to steam roll him unless he has bunkers and marauders already out. Oh, and pure marines are crap against roaches. Roaches have over triple the life of a marine, plus higher DPS, for an extra 25/25. Normal one base marine aggression is basically exactly what this build counters. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 17 2011 00:37 Grapefruit wrote: Does this also work when you're going hatch first? I haven't tried it because I greatly dislike any hatch-first play just as a general rule. A hyper-aggressive opponent can auto-win if he does a 2-rax with a proxy 3rd. I'm sure if you could get away with hatching first, you could be fine though. July's "no queen" build was 15hatch 14gas 13 pool I believe. On March 17 2011 00:49 Xapti wrote: Yeah although I think that must be overly popular, because terrans seem to always send a 2nd SCV scout afterwards, at least at medium to high level. when their second scv gets by (which it will unless you built like 8 zerglings, or 6 zerglings and were lucky/good), they will see whether you've expanded or not, which will decide their reaction. It is why the hatch feint is so effective. They will not be able to get into your base (unless you're terrible), so they will decide based off what they can see, the expo. I think you are misinformed at best (both of you). I explain why 7RR is different than this in the OP, but maybe I should be clearer. 7RR expand is like a silver league strategy. It worked in early diamond for a bout a week before people realized what it was. 7RR expand is very easily both scouted and countered. You can't do either of those here. it's easy to say "oh well I can make marauders and siege tanks and banshees and you only have roaches." Try doing that in a real game when you scout ling speed, 15pool/gas and 16hatch. There's no way you're going to do that. banshee harass in standard 1-1-1 will get absolutely shit on because if you do that, you won't have anything to defend your ramp with, and 4-5 roaches will be able to start the attack instead of 9-11. 7RR expand is a really terrible build in all honesty in 1v1. I used it when I played 2v2 a lot before I started 1's, and this is nothing like it. It's the same in that you send roaches at your opponent with your first push, but that's about where the commonality lies. You can abandon this build at any point and come away unscathed, and you can also very easily transition into anything you want. On March 17 2011 00:38 Xapti wrote: Like I agree it could be a very effective trick, which can win games, but because of that it's inefficient. This is not a trick... it's a very economical, standard opener that quickly transitions into very hard aggression. If by "inefficient" you mean "doesn't hit with the same force as 7RR at the same time" then sure you're correct. But in order to hit with that force, you must allow yourself to be very easily scouted, which is what dooms 7RR-e as a noob strategy. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 17 2011 00:51 Sm3agol wrote: I am aware of that, I am not mentally challenged. The issue is that the hatchery slows the roach attack substantially. You don't get the larva as fast as with a queen, and you pay over 200 extra minerals for it. That gives extra time for the terran to build more units.This build is basically a 1 base roach build except for the fact that you can transition into a macro game much easier. You normally get a 150 mineral queen anyways, so you're basically just using your extra hatch as an expensive queen. But the difference is when you decide to go macro, you already have your expo up, you just have to saturate it. On March 17 2011 00:51 Sm3agol wrote: I personally think 1 base marines would get roflstomped by this build. ... Oh, and pure marines are crap against roaches. Roaches have over triple the life of a marine, plus higher DPS, for an extra 25/25. Normal one base marine aggression is basically exactly what this build counters. Roaches are essentially double the cost of a marine. They have more health, but not only is their DPS lower than 2 marines, but their overkill is quite high because of the delay in a roach's attack. They also have less range, so when roaches come knocking on a barracks wall, they have to kill barracks and repairing SCVs while marines get free shots in— that's also not including potential of marauders or bunker. I don't think you're factoring in all the trouble that zerg has to deal with. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 17 2011 01:06 Xapti wrote: I am aware of that, I am not mentally challenged. The issue is that the hatchery slows the roach attack substantially. You don't get the larva as fast as with a queen, and you pay over 200 extra minerals for it. That gives extra time for the terran to build more units. Roaches are essentially double the cost of a marine. They have more health, but not only is their DPS lower than 2 marines, but their overkill is quite high because of the delay in a roach's attack. They also have less range, so when roaches come knocking on a barracks wall, they have to kill barracks and repairing SCVs while marines get free shots in— that's also not including potential of marauders or bunker. I don't think you're factoring in all the trouble that zerg has to deal with. You're missing the entire point of this build FYI. You aren't hitting any timing window. You're baiting one of: a) marine aggression b) hellion aggression c) 1-1-1 tech d) terran FE Of which this build hard counters all. And it isn't something like canceling or hiding tech where your opponent scouting would cost you the game. It's having him scout the lack of something that he already can't really know is in production, but has to assume it is (queen). | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On March 17 2011 01:01 michaelhasanalias wrote: This is not a trick... it's a very economical, standard opener that quickly transitions into very hard aggression. If by "inefficient" you mean "doesn't hit with the same force as 7RR at the same time" then sure you're correct. But in order to hit with that force, you must allow yourself to be very easily scouted, which is what dooms 7RR-e as a noob strategy. It is not nearly as economical as many other builds. Yes it is not as efficient as a Roach rush, but economy wise it is poor as well. 15 pool 16 hatchery is not an economic opening, especially when used without queens and with a roach warren. An early hatchery means nothing when you don't have the drones to mine with. Getting a hatchery fast is not the same as in SC1 - when you want to produce both offensive units and drones, queens are superior, hatcheries are only good once you have enough drones, or if you want the option to trick the opponent. I should clairify that am not calling the build just a trick, it is the option for a trick, since you do not need to do the roach attack. On March 17 2011 01:10 michaelhasanalias wrote: You're missing the entire point of this build FYI. You aren't hitting any timing window. You're baiting one of: a) marine aggression b) hellion aggression c) 1-1-1 tech d) terran FE Of which this build hard counters all. You're mistaken, I understand the point of the build. The thing is a factory-barracks opening (1-1-1 or hellion aggression or marine-tank) is a decision made fairly early on, and when you go 15 pool 16 hatch it's not something that is baiting it any more than other builds (at least I don't see it). I don't think it's a bad build overall, I just know it is not efficient if the roaches don't deal damage, which I would say is a huge possibility unless they happen to be running a build you want them to run. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
Hellion aggression i will agree that it stops dead in its tracks but note. you cannot push the terran if he has a reactor Factory in play. (you move out i move in, you have no queen to defend not to mention hellions would have easily scouted the first few roaches and terran can start marauders). Blue flame, yes you will probably destroy that cant argue there. 1-1-1 tech. It is very unlikely that you can walk all your roaches to his base before he spots them. A good terran will contest the xel naga with 2 marines. Now theres 2 variations of 1-1-1 or 1-1 teching, 1 is siege tanks, which this build will roll over and die to mainly because by the time you get there tank 2 should be on the way if not out (depends on how you spend your gas) and high likelihood of siege mode (if that is the tech). Against 1-1-1 banshee open, I ask again, how are you able to stop the banshee that is in your base killing drones while his second banshee defends. Even if you start your queens as you move out, the banshee will be hovering near your base and you would have no economic lead nor tech. If cloak is on the way then your going to be way behind simply due to your late lair. if there is no cloak then there is an expansion already building. FE: is iffy depending on how greedy the terran is. However do note that if terran is FEing, there is a good chance he'll scout your natural to check your drone count. The last thing i want is a baneling bust hence i check the drone count at the natural with another scv if my initial is killed. | ||
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DusTerr
2520 Posts
On March 17 2011 01:24 GHOSTCLAW wrote: pretty good OP agreed, definitely something I'll try out when I play Z. btw - "your build sucks" because you didn't practice on me first! BTW, do you have a transition from this build to muta?  | ||
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Albrithe
Canada187 Posts
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Wintertime
Canada64 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 17 2011 01:13 Xapti wrote: It is not nearly as economical as many other builds. Yes it is not as efficient as a Roach rush, but economy wise it is poor as well. 15 pool 16 hatchery is not an economic opening, especially when used without queens and with a roach warren. An early hatchery means nothing when you don't have the drones to mine with. Getting a hatchery fast is not the same as in SC1 - when you want to produce both offensive units and drones, queens are superior, hatcheries are only good once you have enough drones, or if you want the option to trick the opponent. I should clairify that am not calling the build just a trick, it is the option for a trick, since you do not need to do the roach attack. ..... You're mistaken, I understand the point of the build. The thing is a factory-barracks opening (1-1-1 or hellion aggression or marine-tank) is a decision made fairly early on, and when you go 15 pool 16 hatch it's not something that is baiting it any more than other builds (at least I don't see it). I don't think it's a bad build overall, I just know it is not efficient if the roaches don't deal damage, which I would say is a huge possibility unless they happen to be running a build you want them to run. 15 pool 16 hatchery is not an economical opener? Even if you don't make more drones, the 2nd hatchery opens up 3-4 additional close mineral patches that can be mined, increasing net income by ~50/min, which is a big deal when you only have 14 drones. It's certainly LESS economical than someone who makes 11 more drones instead of up to 11 roaches, but, for lack of tact, no shit sherlock... The "early on" decision is made after the depot scout in most cases. Therefore, you can use the information you get to decide whether or not to execute whatever you had in mind. While 2-raxing is a decision made pre-emptively, the decision to aggress or defend is made AFTER the scouting. For 1-1+-X the decision on whether to banshee harass, thor rush, tank rush, marauder rush, blue flame hellion/etc, quick drop, etc is made after scouting. And you're right, no push is efficient if it doesn't do damage. This has nothing to do with this build. If you execute any timing push and don't do damage, you're behind. By that logic almost every timing push is bad because good scouting will allow a timely counter. I still contend you're missing the big picture here, but you're free to continue disagreeing on these lesser points. If you think 11 roaches aren't going to deal any damage, I think you should reconsider. On March 17 2011 01:48 Wintertime wrote: If you 15 hatch 15 or 16 pool, you can grab 1 queen and 1 roach warren on 18, when your hatch/overlord finish. I also wouldn't be confident in getting a 16 hatch down after pool, their scout should easily delay it for a bit. By 15 hatching, you get a slightly more economic advantage, and your warren isn't very delayed. I'd make the first queen at your expo and throw down a creep tumor to start. I think the issue with this is that now you've just made a greedy opener susceptible to standard 2-rax aggression, delayed the warren further, and invested in a queen that can't be supported with roach production. The tumor you make is similarly not useful to you for the purposes of this attack. If I were to do all the things you mention, I think this would just become standard play. On March 17 2011 01:25 wackedupwacko wrote: I disagree that it counters marine aggression. As a terran, once the bunker is down, you cannot use your 4-6 lings to do anything hence you have t o wait til about 3-4 roaches to pop. By that time I have usually started my CC and if saw roaches coming i instantly send my marines out and salvage then start another bunker in my base, if not 2. Hellion aggression i will agree that it stops dead in its tracks but note. you cannot push the terran if he has a reactor Factory in play. (you move out i move in, you have no queen to defend not to mention hellions would have easily scouted the first few roaches and terran can start marauders). Blue flame, yes you will probably destroy that cant argue there. 1-1-1 tech. It is very unlikely that you can walk all your roaches to his base before he spots them. A good terran will contest the xel naga with 2 marines. Now theres 2 variations of 1-1-1 or 1-1 teching, 1 is siege tanks, which this build will roll over and die to mainly because by the time you get there tank 2 should be on the way if not out (depends on how you spend your gas) and high likelihood of siege mode (if that is the tech). Against 1-1-1 banshee open, I ask again, how are you able to stop the banshee that is in your base killing drones while his second banshee defends. Even if you start your queens as you move out, the banshee will be hovering near your base and you would have no economic lead nor tech. If cloak is on the way then your going to be way behind simply due to your late lair. if there is no cloak then there is an expansion already building. FE: is iffy depending on how greedy the terran is. However do note that if terran is FEing, there is a good chance he'll scout your natural to check your drone count. The last thing i want is a baneling bust hence i check the drone count at the natural with another scv if my initial is killed. It's pretty obvious that this counters marine aggression, as every variant of early roach aggression does. whatever you pushed with is going to die. Bunker/marines/SCV. It's not like the roaches will auto attack the salvaging bunker while you walk away clean. I will say that 2-rax aggression followed by double bunker will probably defend this build if you have good building positioning, but the problem is that you won't be able to expand, while I can drone freely and macro up. You also won't know if I've committed to roaches, or gone speedling heavy, or simply abandoned the build as soon as I shit on your 2-rax aggression. Are you really going to build 2 bunkers when you scout 3 roaches off a late pool FE? Maybe you will, but if you do, there's no reason I have to stay committed to the build (and I don't think I would in this situation you mention). 1-1-1 tech loses to this outright. You don't have enough stuff to defend. It's easy to say "oh well I'd have a 2nd tank on the way." 11 Roaches will 2-shot a tank with 8 SCVs on it. 1-1-1 into banshee play, good luck. If you manage the fastest banshee of your life you'll get it out by 6 minutes after I've broken your ramp with my first 4-5 roaches. And while your 1 banshee whacks at the roaches killing all your SCVs, I can double queen and be fine. You can't have a banshee in my base, have one in your base killing 11 roaches, and have this happen by 6 minutes. It's just not possible. Even if you build your starport next to my hatchery in my base, you can't start killing my drones until I have already broken your wall with the initial roaches. You seem to think that you can get a banshee out at 4 minutes into the game or that I'm not leaving my base until 7 minutes in game time. (I do think the point you make about 2-rax and double bunker is a valid one though. The issue is that I can abandon this build at no negative cost if you do that or I suspect you will do it.) | ||
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Sirion
131 Posts
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Elanshin
Australia216 Posts
I am not saying that it is a bad build, I just feel that for what you are trying to achieve, it is too easily stopped and if it is stopped then you are not in a very strong economic position. I feel that given this build or a speedling/bling bust, it is alot more economical to use that and be alot harder to spot. no terran will believe something is wrong if theres 6 speedlings running around but every terran will if they see 1 roach. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:06 wackedupwacko wrote: 15 hatch - > 16 pool is not economical because it sits on 3 larva for a while. 11 roaches is very powerful if you can walk them next to your opponent and hit his wall. The question is the big if there. there are many ways to scout this and adjust your build. I am not saying that it is a bad build, I just feel that for what you are trying to achieve, it is too easily stopped and if it is stopped then you are not in a very strong economic position. I feel that given this build or a speedling/bling bust, it is alot more economical to use that and be alot harder to spot. no terran will believe something is wrong if theres 6 speedlings running around but every terran will if they see 1 roach. Well, this is a 15 pool / 16 hatch build, so there aren't 3 larva sitting around, and you make overlords and/or lings with the excess larva while you wait for the warren. If yo uspend 2 larva, you will have 3rd pop as the warren does (if properly timed). Please explain "there are many ways to scout this and adjust your build." Also please do more than generalize "it's too easily stopped so it's bad." You don't give any reasons. Last, they won't see a roach if you make lings. That's where the "optional" part comes in. Do what you need to do hide the tech. The deception built-in to this opener is very high. And even if he scouts the warren, you can just make 1-2 roaches, bait an over-response or tech switch, and continue with your meta boost, then double queen/drone and be none the poorer from standard play. This is much more difficult to scout than a ling/bling bust, but due to the structure of your final two sentences, I'm unsure if you feel my build or the ling/bling bust is better. | ||
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