|
On March 17 2011 01:45 Albrithe wrote:
Hey OP, I like this build a lot. I'm curious what maps on the current ladder pool this works well on, and which you've had troubles with. I'm gonna watch the replays when I get home.
Hey, Michael, don't forget about the people with legitimate questions! (not just build bashing, as most of these posts seem extremely baseless)
|
On March 17 2011 02:24 Albrithe wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 01:45 Albrithe wrote:
Hey OP, I like this build a lot. I'm curious what maps on the current ladder pool this works well on, and which you've had troubles with. I'm gonna watch the replays when I get home. Hey, Michael, don't forget about the people with legitimate questions! (not just build bashing, as most of these posts seem extremely baseless)
Ah, sorry I didn't see. I haven't had any trouble on any specific map. Because this build is based on countering, and not hitting a timing window, it is much more forgiving on range and maps.
Also, because you can spot double OLs abutting either side of your opponent's ramp, you can similarly harass on either side without risking the single OL you'd otherwise have.
I have the following maps downvoted:
Scrap Station
Delta Quadrant
Typhon Peaks
So, maybe this build could be less effective on these maps, but I don't like these maps to begin with (Scrap because of rush distance and I cheese a lot, TP because it's very big and new, and DQ simply because I never play on it. I think if I were a better player I'd pick DQ over BG, but I like BG a lot.)
On March 17 2011 02:06 wackedupwacko wrote:
Edit: responding to some of your claims. 11 roaches may 2 shot tanks, question is how do you 2 shot tanks if they GREATLY outrange your roaches AND destroy them hella fast , are you really going to try and suicide up a ramp WITH marines (and most likely a bunker) you would lose at least 1 roach getting up before you take your first shot. If theres siege mode you cant attempt it and be economical in keeping enough roaches alive.
You have prehaps misunderstood regarding the banshees. There is no reason a terran going banshee will not have scouted your roaches. a hellion is part of the build simply because you can scout with it, kill a billion non speedlings and harass while still doing the build economically. Now if you march across the map with 4-5 roaches, it cant break a bunker in time before banshees are out (you can test this if you like) you MAY get a depot depending on positioning. Further there is 2 variants of the banshee build, cloak or expo. if its cloak then even if you take the time to fend off the roaches , your lair is so delayed that it is a close race for detection. you are already low on drone count and even with queens out a good terran can kill 2-3 drones per banshee before flying away with 1 queen at a base.
I also believe you do not understand the current concept of 2 rax pressure. The goal is to force the zerg to make lots of units to break it not to "kill" things. That in itself does damage simply because the zerg invested quite alot into units that the terran will see and defend accordingly. Hence if the bunker goes up and you make roaches then you have already one what the 2 rax was designed to do.
There's way too much theorycrafting and what-if-then's going on to produce an effective reply to most of this, but regarding the 2-rax pressure:
You're not going to accomplish anything when the Zerg player doesn't plan on making more drones for the foreseeable future. You can't 2-rax anyone who goes for an early warren. You will lose on that trade every time, no exception. You don't come out ahead when you deal no damage and lose your standing army + 1-3 SCVs. The damage you "deny" in my making units is mitigated by your losing everything you pushed with.
Further, by extending that same logic to loosely address all the theorycrafting you did above, my roach army isn't exactly going to be unhecked in your base... you have to pull SCVs off mining to repair when I'm harassing or your wall will crumble. No matter how you wall, there are holes where roaches can harass unchecked, and you'll be forced to lift or let your buildings die. Once that happens, the roaches can walk in. And if you really think you can get a banshee out in time to stop this by going 1-1-1, then I think you should play against this build.
1-1-1 banshee loses almost outright to just about every kind of early roach aggression, and this is by no means an exception.
|
Ok I am not trying to bash your build and that its a nice "funky" strat to have, I feel that it is reliant on the opponent not scouting you. Without speedling you can't truly have early map control. That is the key problem i find with the build compared with speedling baneling. I will go through a few terran opens just to explain the terran perspective.
2 rax: rally rines IF bunker goes up and you make roaches after about 1 minute its served its purpose, I have an expo building, i know you made roaches. Normal 2 rax progression is techlab as to get stim. begin marauder production with 1 rax. bunker at the top of the ramp will be very hard to break, you can scout this but it is not much of a deviation from normal 2 rax progression and it will serve its purpose.
Adv: Terran unless you do damage with your roaches. You may light contain him but it is rather moot point, it just means that his income will be lower for a short period of time but scv production should be at least equal to drones if not greater.
NOTE: If a terran rallies more than 5 rines to your base then hes going to all in you and im not sure if 3-4 roaches that you pop immediately can break all in marines. there will be about another 5-6 marines at your base as you kill the bunker and the things inside.
Against Rax stim timing: Coin Flip. Some go Marine Marauder. That will be a big problem for roaches, stim MM chew through roaches in similar numbers. If its Marine only then it should be fine to break.
Against 1 Rax FE very viable if unscouted. If scouted it is a problem because the production capacities will kick in soon and double bunker turtling is enough. Once production kicks in you will be hard pressed to continue pressuring. However i do concede alot of terrans dont scout but all it takes is a glance at your saturation at your natural to figure it out. If you dont do damage with roaches, you are behind because of the amount of larva dedicated to roaches.
Reactor helion: a bit old but still an opening. first 2 hellions will encounter roach. that will trigger the reponse of either marauder or tanks. Also you probably cannot move out with all your roaches. It is neither a net gain or loss but you will have little to no map control for a while.
Blue Flame: build order counter, easy win for zerg
Marine tank: you state that 11 roaches 2 shot tanks. I ask how do you hit the tank? tanks out range roachs by QUITE a bit. they do insane damage unsieged and sieged to roaches and there will always be marines to support. if you win it is more likely that the terran did not micro correctly rather than a good counter.
Banshee: you state that you attack earlier, but with less roaches a bunker stops it in its tracks. 1 scouting hellion is part of the build. There is plenty of time to get that first banshee up if you attack earlier by delaying. If you attack with 11 roaches all together then the first banshee is out, and a second is popping out. The banshee follow up is usually command centre so if it results in nil damage on either side then nothing will come of it.
2 port banshee: the all in version of the above build, similar idea to banshee but it will be alot harder to stop the banshee counter attack.
By all means it can catch a terran offguard, but it is not economical in anyway as it sacrifices economy to apply early pressure. If there is little to no damage then you are quite a ways behind even if you start immediate drone production. ( you will be sub 20 drones when you get 11 roaches where as terran should easily be in the 20s) .
Again i stress that the build truly counters no scouting by the terran rather than terran builds.
|
I really like this idea. There are a lot of things that I like about it.
1) hatch will partially fill the role of the queen in giving you extra larva.
2) producing roaches instead of zerglings you will need less larva anyway.
3) you still get a pretty fast expansion up!! this is excellent. You can either keep making roaches to pressure or you can drone up!!
I can't play on the ladder now because of my poor internet, but this makes me wish I could 
|
Very nice idea for a build. I'll have to try this next time I spawn close positions on ST, Metal or DQ.
On March 17 2011 02:55 wackedupwacko wrote:
Ok I am not trying to bash your build and that its a nice "funky" strat to have, I feel that it is reliant on the opponent not scouting you. Without speedling you can't truly have early map control. That is the key problem i find with the build compared with speedling baneling. I will go through a few terran opens just to explain the terran perspective.
The OP says that the build includes 0-6 zerglings with speed optional. Personally I would definitely want to build 4-6 to deny all scouting. The greatest strength of this build is misinformation.
|
I tried it vs a plat player (will most likely be diamond soon if you look at his stats) and got bunker rushed and he managed to take my nat hatchery down. Mostly due to me messing up alot and sloppy play. Once I got a few more roaches up I rolled him easily even with only one hatch left.
The question I got is how I should react to marauders? They are not likely unless he manages to scout the warren but sometimes T just gets a few marauders anyway.
|
Michael stop breaking the game and get into Masters already.
~ Mr.NoFilter
|
I've only managed to try it once (where are the terrans on ladder??) and he delayed my expo. My roaches fended off his rine attack easily but he bunkered up and I was unable to push up his ramp. Took my expo and started droning when I saw his CC building. I still had like 8 roaches, but I figured marauders would come so once I hit saturation+2 gas, I went mass speedling with some blings. Caught his army while it was on the move, then went over and destroyed his base.
I think with the roaches you basically just feel more aggressive with what you can do. Those two bunkers and scvs coming to repair could do nothign against my 8 roach+speedling army.
|
wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow?
|
On March 17 2011 10:05 vojnik wrote:
wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow?
Single OL positioning needs to cover the whole ramp, and so is vulnerable to a scoot-n-shoot down and back up the ramp. Because of the time you attack, you can easily have 2, and possibly three overlords positioned around his ramp.
The first OL you send should go to the far side of his ramp, while the 2nd will just be positioned. Most players will have a bunker if they suspect anything, or at least some buildings on the perimeter (because they must wall). All of the buildings on edge are susceptible to free roach harass. Even though Roaches only have 4 range, the buildings give them an effective range of 6 or 7, > Hellions and > Marines. (In other words, the terran units must be behind these buildings to get in position to shoot.
With 11 Roaches, the goal isn't necessarily to bust through the wall, but to destroy it outright. Killing Terran's unit-producing structures is a sure-fire way to really crush him, moreso than killing his workers. Forcing him to lift an orange or red building has the same function because it won't be able to land during the exchange, and therefore can't produce.
So TL;DR - you'll have two OLs, and each one is positioned caddy-corner to the ramp, so neither is in range of marine fire.
|
On March 17 2011 12:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 10:05 vojnik wrote:
wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow? Single OL positioning needs to cover the whole ramp, and so is vulnerable to a scoot-n-shoot down and back up the ramp. Because of the time you attack, you can easily have 2, and possibly three overlords positioned around his ramp. The first OL you send should go to the far side of his ramp, while the 2nd will just be positioned. Most players will have a bunker if they suspect anything, or at least some buildings on the perimeter (because they must wall). All of the buildings on edge are susceptible to free roach harass. Even though Roaches only have 4 range, the buildings give them an effective range of 6 or 7, > Hellions and > Marines. (In other words, the terran units must be behind these buildings to get in position to shoot. With 11 Roaches, the goal isn't necessarily to bust through the wall, but to destroy it outright. Killing Terran's unit-producing structures is a sure-fire way to really crush him, moreso than killing his workers. Forcing him to lift an orange or red building has the same function because it won't be able to land during the exchange, and therefore can't produce. So TL;DR - you'll have two OLs, and each one is positioned caddy-corner to the ramp, so neither is in range of marine fire.
let me rephrase, what if you overlod gets killed by a marine before the attack, i see some terrans do that they scout around the main to shoot down OVs, thus SBing you and delaying the incoming roaches? Have this happened to you before?
|
OP, I know this is a vT strat, but I'm wondering about the viability of this in ZvP (because it just seems to fit so well.) I just tried your build once against the Very Easy AI, screwed it up, and still had 12 roaches at 6:50. I'm not sure about 15 pool 15 gas, because I screwed it up and did 14 gas/14 pool and ended up with way too much gas. But in my screw up, you could very easily get those roaches AND Ling Speed, hit with your initial roaches, and then follow it up with a speedling all-in.
Thoughts? Have you tried this before?
|
Have you tried this vs any 2 port banshee? I dont see it under the Replay list and think that the banshees could provide alot of trouble?
|
On March 17 2011 13:16 Enyalus wrote:
OP, I know this is a vT strat, but I'm wondering about the viability of this in ZvP (because it just seems to fit so well.) I just tried your build once against the Very Easy AI, screwed it up, and still had 12 roaches at 6:50. I'm not sure about 15 pool 15 gas, because I screwed it up and did 14 gas/14 pool and ended up with way too much gas. But in my screw up, you could very easily get those roaches AND Ling Speed, hit with your initial roaches, and then follow it up with a speedling all-in.
Thoughts? Have you tried this before?
See the discussion thread linked in OP about No Queen FE aggression builds
On March 17 2011 12:28 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 12:06 michaelhasanalias wrote:On March 17 2011 10:05 vojnik wrote:
wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow? Single OL positioning needs to cover the whole ramp, and so is vulnerable to a scoot-n-shoot down and back up the ramp. Because of the time you attack, you can easily have 2, and possibly three overlords positioned around his ramp. The first OL you send should go to the far side of his ramp, while the 2nd will just be positioned. Most players will have a bunker if they suspect anything, or at least some buildings on the perimeter (because they must wall). All of the buildings on edge are susceptible to free roach harass. Even though Roaches only have 4 range, the buildings give them an effective range of 6 or 7, > Hellions and > Marines. (In other words, the terran units must be behind these buildings to get in position to shoot. With 11 Roaches, the goal isn't necessarily to bust through the wall, but to destroy it outright. Killing Terran's unit-producing structures is a sure-fire way to really crush him, moreso than killing his workers. Forcing him to lift an orange or red building has the same function because it won't be able to land during the exchange, and therefore can't produce. So TL;DR - you'll have two OLs, and each one is positioned caddy-corner to the ramp, so neither is in range of marine fire. let me rephrase, what if you overlod gets killed by a marine before the attack, i see some terrans do that they scout around the main to shoot down OVs, thus SBing you and delaying the incoming roaches? Have this happened to you before?
On every map there are good places to hide the OLs until you need them. If he pushes out to try and kill he will lose his marines most of the time.
On March 17 2011 13:49 Schnieder.sc2 wrote:
Have you tried this vs any 2 port banshee? I dont see it under the Replay list and think that the banshees could provide alot of trouble?
I think one of the replays was a guy trying 2-port banshee but failed. The timing just isn't there vs a zerg going roaches. Just about any roach aggression is going to auto-win vs 2-port banshee. That kind of strat is best against a speedling FE opening or hatch first. If he rushed gas before rax and got a quick fact for 2-port to get those banshees by about 6minutes, he might have one out while the roaches are destroying his entire base, and two late banshees are going to simply not deal enough damage on the attack to the roaches that can walk in almost for free.
2-Port banshee relies on that wall holding and you using the money you'd use on units to tech faster. The factory you don't use, the two starports + tech labs + cloak + banshees researching is all an investment that won't pay off when I'm attacking you.
|
Can we get someone with credibility to comment on this? I'd like to have another build in my toolbelt, but seeing "it worked great in diamond/platinum!" makes me leery of trying it in Masters.
|
About the bancheese, I can see it going either way really.
The real question is, will the terran be able to get the bancheese up in time? It seems really close.
It sounds like it would be in favor of the terran, since it would take a while for the roaches to bust through the wall, and then still take some more time to kill any bunkers, and then actually destroy the starport before a banshee pops.
If 2 bansheese manage to pop off a double starport build, a terran who realizes what is happening would be able to just fly to your base, kill a large amount of drones before your 2 queens pop, kill the queens, and then kill off the rest of your stuff, while his base just flies around.
2 bancheese come out, and as a zerg doing this build, you would be 100% dead, even after forcing all his buildings to lift off, killing all his ground army, and all of his workers.
So this would really depend on timing a LOT, it would all come down to a few seconds, zerg realizing whats up (2port) and going straight for the starport kill ignoring any SCVs thrown his way, terran going straight for the zerg main, ignoring the fact that his base is being trashed.
It might depend on spawn positions too.
Its too hard to tell, since its so close, and both sides just have theorycrafting, banshee ppl saying they would get the bancheese out in time, zergs saying the roach timing would hit too early.
Perhaps incorporating an early scout that attempts to gas steal would be a good idea to deter 2port bancheese?
Has anyone actually experienced it? Could we see a replay instead of all the theoricrafting? Replay would help more than anything at this point, since without a replay, its all useless theorycrafting.
|
|
|
On March 17 2011 00:21 alpenrahm wrote:
is this safe against a 10 pool?
how can terran 10pool?
|
On March 17 2011 02:55 wackedupwacko wrote:
Ok I am not trying to bash your build and that its a nice "funky" strat to have, I feel that it is reliant on the opponent not scouting you.
Exacly, it relies on the opponent not scouting it.
But that's the whole point of the build, the opponent can not scout it (without wasting a scan).
This is how I would write the build order:
scout around 12 ?
15- pool
15- extractor
16- hatch
15- 2 sets of lings
@scout denied- roach warren
16-overlord x2
roaches
This is the point of getting pool first, you deny scouting before starting the roach warren.
|
On March 17 2011 17:20 brain_ wrote:
Can we get someone with credibility to comment on this? I'd like to have another build in my toolbelt, but seeing "it worked great in diamond/platinum!" makes me leery of trying it in Masters.
You can try the build yourself and see what you think... The majority of people who read these forums are plat/diamond level players who are trying to bump themselves up. You can't fault my OP because of this reaason.
There's a game vs. a 3700 Master terran who is ~top 300 NA. That should be at least something.
Thanks I will post these now in OP. Do you have any comments to add?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
