Strategy The concept is simple enough--disguise hard early aggression as a slightly greedy economical opener. You open with a late pool/hatch and then follow-up with NO QUEENS and heavy roaches.
Unlike the dated 7RR or any 1-base roach variant, this is much more difficult to scout, much less difficult to execute, and offers very easy transitions both into and out of an economic playstyle.
The Build (Optional early drone scout) 15 Spawning Pool 15 Extractor 16 hatchery (Optional 0-6 Zerglings) (Optional Metabolic Boost research) @150min Roach Warren Overlord x2 (Optional x1 if you made 4-6 lings) Roach x8-11
* If you opt for 6 lings, you can allow meta boost to finish, and not impact your roach timing.
* Be sure you have OLs spotting the ramp. Due to your map control, you should be able to position two overlords (one on either side of his ramp).
Why This Works When a player scouts, he would like to react to the information he sees. In this case, the terran opponent sees a late pool, a fast expansion, and early gas. For most players, this means economy and speedlings for defense.
However, the kicker is that by NOT getting the queen, you can start the warren as you chase away the scout. If you were building a queen, you wouldn't have the money for a warren, and because the terran player assumes you will make your first queen immediately, he leaves (or is chased out) feeling content that he saw everything he needed to see at that time.
Also, you can begin research on ling speed immediately so that he DOES see a wiggling spawning pool and he will reaffirm what he expected: economic FE and Queens/speedlings for defense. Due to the design of this build, you have roughly one minute to decide whether to allow meta boost to finish or cancel and use the gas for more roaches.
Also of vital importance, is that this build does not seek to exploit a timing window! Instead, it seeks to bait one of several reactions that are hard-countered by this roach aggression.
Further, if the Terran does turtle and happens to appropriate an awesome response, you've set yourself up for a nice contain that can delay his expansion considerably.
And lastly, because you have no queens during the opening minutes of this game and through your aggression, your APM and attention can be almost exclusively zoned in on microing your army. This is a tangible advantage in battle that other aggression builds don't have.
Adaptability Because this hard aggression has an economic opener as its base, the decision is not to "abandon" this build but to instead transition INTO it. The deciding factor becomes only when you drop your Roach Warren (instead of making the initial Queen).
With a safe expansion already established, you can easily double queen and drone up to play the contain, or transition back into a standard game. You should deal some damage, but you aren't dead in the water if you don't.
This is definitely a cheese. It is most certainly NOT an all-in.
Terran Decision-Making and the Proper Response Upon scouting 15pool/gas/16 hatch, The terran opponent should decide to continue with his 2-rax aggression, or transition into a 1-1-1/1-2-1 or FE build of his own. ONLY with the realization that there is NO queen (and instead a hidden warren once he leaves) can the very keen Terran player understand what's going on.
You may say "well I can just look at the hatch and tell." Watch this video and see just how close they truly are. Unlike other zerg buildings where production is obvious, the hatch movements are much less pronounced:
Vs. 2-rax aggression, any early roaches will counter this, but most players will be coin-flipping at best whether to aggress against a pool-first build, even one that is late and follows with a quick FE. If he aggresses, you will win in this trade off, but if he double bunkers after, he should be able to hold, so your best bet from 2-rax aggression is just go back into a normal game after using those few roaches to force him back. If he doesn't aggress, you should be able to overpower him, as he won't expect the roaches, and your lings can clear the map of scouting.
Vs. Blue Flame Hellion or any hellion harass, he is basically GG. In many of the replays, the natural response to this build is blue flame hellion harass. This means his tech lab ISN'T on his Barracks, and he can't make marauders OR research siege mode. In these cases, there is usually one tank with SCVs attempting to repair it, but it's simply no match vs the burst damage of 11 roaches.
Closing Comments In my still limited testing, I do feel this is a tournament-worthy cheese. The skill level required to execute this is low compared with other cheeses, and the ease of transition both into and out of this build only increase its usability.
Please post any comments, questions, criticisms, and replays you have.
Replays I will post more as I get them. And please feel free to submit your own (see below)
To comment the experience I've had with this opening, I'd say it defintly works on larger maps as well, if you're lucky enough not to get cross position on Typhoon peaks and Backwater Gulchas it might be hard to get an overlord there in time.
I failed against a protoss 4gate + forge on one base only because of poor choicemaking on my side, same against fast void ray with a single cannon behind the wall, attacking the cannon would have given me the win easy peasy lemon squeezy.
The other comment i would make concern "transitions" : against 1-1-1 opening, depending on terran's building placement, it's possible he succeeds to pop a banshee. You've normally killed enough scv's that you can stop attack, start queens at both expansion, stop the attack and play safely, it's freewin later on. Just be patient.
There is a game with baneling nest instead. I think i went 16 hatch 15 pool 14 gas, as Michael said in another topic about no queen FE, He thinks it's what July did in a GSL game against Nada. It did enough damage, and had to keep on playing normally knowing the win would come later. The spirit behind this is the same though, and it's pretty interesting : you will do damage so long you make good decisions (and this come with playing games with this opening), and know when to stop, start queens and droning.
On March 20 2011 20:23 morimacil wrote: Well the reason not to hatch first here, is that you can get your lings up slightly earlier, thus shoo the scouting SCV away slightly earlier, and thus start your roach warren slightly earlier, and so your roaches arrive at his base slightly earlier, and so on. And by slightly earlier, I mean 45 seconds earlier. at 14 drones and 200 minerals, you start the pool, instead of moving out, making a hatch, making 2 more drones, getting another 200 minerals, and then only starting the pool. And really, I dont think hatch first makes it much harder to scout. I mean, 14 pool 15 hatch? No way in hell that this looks unorthodox, or will alert the terran to any form of cheese
These guys are like at 1500-2500k masters, so nothing top notch, but not bronze either.
The good news is, my build works, kind of. I was able to decently transition to a macrogame with a giant advantage in 2 of them, outright killed my opponent in the other 2. The bad? news, is that Im not sure the transition is really needed In those games where I did transition out of roaches, and made more drones, and got lingspeed, and outmacroed them....well those games felt like if Id just kept making roaches instead of taking the giant advantage, and making a queen plus some drones, I probably would have just outright won. The other thing is, against a 2rax build, its really good, but it feels incredibly aqward to try and transition out of it. Usually, he will have a second CC, and 3 rax up, so if you just kill a bunch of marines and SCVs, and then go home... with double mules, plus the rest of his SCVs, he can regain a macro disadvantage quite fast. Plus, with no lingspeed, its kinda trivial for him to make some marauders with his marines, and push you back, so if you drone hard, especially on close positions, it feels super risky. But if you dont, then with double orbital, he can catch up and outecon you pretty fast, at least thats the feeling I get. So in most cases, against 2rax I think that the best solotuion is to just keep making roaches for a while, its very hard for him to keep up anyway, since hes got the same amount of workers as you, but has to keep repairing with a lot of them, and your roaches are more costeficient than his marines if the marines exit the bunkers.
4-0 today with the build, 6-1 altogether, and the loss was the first time I used the build, where I got greedy and made only 2 lings as the OP suggested, he came back to scout with his SCV, and scouted a roach popping, he had time to make a techlab, a marauder, and a bunker, since it was on scrap station.
So Id say the build is pretty damn good :D Now I just need to play against a terran that can actually hold this off without knowing that its coming beforehand, and then once that happens a couple of times, Ill be able to tell if its actually beneficial to try and have a way to transition out of it, or if its better to just all-in. Also, since the opening is so normal, you pretty much could do it reactively. 14 pool 15 hatch, and if hes 2raxing on close positions, roach warren and go kill him. Its kind of hard to try and think about using the build reactively when ive had no losses with it that I wouldnt have been able to avoid though, since so far, I cant really think of anything I would scout that wouldnt make me wanna do this. Even seeing a rax with a techlab on it, its going to be blueflamed hellions 90% of the time, so no need to worry about marauders...
On March 17 2011 18:30 lodidodi- wrote: Here are replays from the games i played yesterday, systematically using this opening in all match-ups (input from a 2900 EU diamond player - mediocre level)
On April 07 2011 23:27 mizak wrote: If you still want replays heres a masters game of myself on ladder. I cleaned up a double rax with factory pumping rine hellion. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/5959/Mizak_vs_Max
It's so refreshing to see inspired, fresh new Zerg builds like Queenless FE Roach expands... For the longest time it's felt like us Zergies were getting left out of the variety of openers, and I can't wait to try this when I get home.
Kudos, sir! This'll really throw my Terran buddy off. I cancel baneling nests and roach warrens to mess up his opener but I don't think he'd even notice the lack of a queen on his early scout.
On March 16 2011 12:57 BlazedHydra wrote: omg thank you, ive been looking for a new build to use vs terran... they have been kicking my ASS on the ladder.
On March 16 2011 12:57 AimlessAmoeba wrote: It's so refreshing to see inspired, fresh new Zerg builds like Queenless FE Roach expands... For the longest time it's felt like us Zergies were getting left out of the variety of openers, and I can't wait to try this when I get home.
Kudos, sir! This'll really throw my Terran buddy off. I cancel baneling nests and roach warrens to mess up his opener but I don't think he'd even notice the lack of a queen on his early scout.
Please post replays if and when you have them so I can include them in the OP, and good luck!
Awesome ideas there. I would extend this contain into taking the gold or a hidden expo, seeing how this will prompt a T to play defensively and maybe even make him think you are all-in'ing. Thanks for this post, really shines through all the garbage in the strategy forum.
I didn't watch the replays because i'm at work but answer this please.
As a T i have one question, what happens if someone hold your push while expoing ? 2 bunker at nat should be enough to hold this (but yes, a terran wouldn't put 2 bunkers if he doesn't know this is coming).
I mean, terran would par on bases + mules and you would have much less larva due to late queens isn't? BTW, at what mark this 11 roach push comes?
Personally, I prefer getting queens earlier so its easier to hold banshees should he have proxied his starport or whatever.
But I don't have many early attacks in my arsenal aside from baneling busts. And I've had my limbs handed back to me when I go up against hellion builds. So I might try this out and see how I like it.
And on the reply/view issue. People in the strategy forum tend to like to bash other peoples guides or bad posts rather than hail good posts. This in turn causes the bad guides and threads to move up, while the good ones slowly die down. Resulting in people calling the strategy forum a shithole.
Just keep at it, add some updates/constant replays. And say you've added replays or content after a week or so of no replies. This will put your thread in the spotlight for a little bit again. If people stop posting on it, they've lost interrest and no amount of bumping will bring it back. So when its time for a guide to die, let it die. Don't get too attached to the stuff you wrote and did your best on, thats all the advice I can give you on that matter.
On March 16 2011 23:17 antilyon wrote: I didn't watch the replays because i'm at work but answer this please.
As a T i have one question, what happens if someone hold your push while expoing ? 2 bunker at nat should be enough to hold this (but yes, a terran wouldn't put 2 bunkers if he doesn't know this is coming).
I mean, terran would par on bases + mules and you would have much less larva due to late queens isn't? BTW, at what mark this 11 roach push comes?
The push can come anywhere between ~5:30 and 6:30. This depends on exactly how you execute it, and when you decide to engage. If there's less stuff, you engage earlier with fewer roaches while the others are en route.
TheDoctor (3600 master) said he thinks the correct response to this would just be double bunkers (off 2-rax) but that he never does that because he's cocky (which is why he felt he lost).
If they hold the push, it won't be by a lot, and it will be by turtling. There isn't really a way to safely expo with this number of roaches on the field unless you went marauder, but given the game situation, it's exceedingly unlikely you had the fortitude to manage a marauder heavy army composition.
While you find a way to safely expand (a defensive banshee, siege mode, marauder + stim bio ball less so), Z just double queens and drones up, or goes for the all-in (the former is more likely I think).
I can't recall which replay(s) offhand where this happened, but I was definitely NOT behind when the attack failed. I attacked, did a fair trade of damage to roaches lost, and we were basically even afterward.
While I think it would be wrong to call this something other than cheese, it is most certainly NOT an all-in by any standard. You have a secure expansion before you even attack and with your standing army you can quickly secure a large boom in economy.
On March 16 2011 23:18 Chaosvuistje wrote: And on the reply/view issue. People in the strategy forum tend to like to bash other peoples guides or bad posts rather than hail good posts. This in turn causes the bad guides and threads to move up, while the good ones slowly die down. Resulting in people calling the strategy forum a shithole.
Someone told me my posts are too cerebral or information-filled, and so there aren't as many of the usual questions to ask. Perhaps if I just limit the information initially, I can get lots of "your idea sucks because of X" and build up some pages of adament posters I piss off.
just watched two of your replays, the first one against the master, where you get bunker rushed and the one against 3 barracks fast expand.
To comment this, the bunker rush is easily fended off, although the terran failed to finish the bunker on the first attempt and failed to send a SCV fast enough to finish it. But, even if this attack had been optimized, your 3 first roches are poping fast enough to end the pressure before much marines come out. So it seems safe against bunker pressure although this would have to be actually tested while well performed.
Against the three barracks into expand into two factories, he doesn't care to bunker rush, so you don't even care to make lings and when roaches arrives to his base, it's just game as he even fails to repair the right barrack (!)
I did not watch the replay against helions pressure as the issue seems pretty obious.
This opening is very interesting, at least to me, and it definitly throws the opponent off. What would tip him would be the 15 hatch after scouting pool gaz first, which is obviously no queen, so it would tip to scout the fast roach warren.
I noticed a common trend with the Terrans you played against. They've been scouting lazy and it seems like it's their own fault for losing each and every time. They would scout the hatch, then go to the main, see the pool, and run. Sometimes your roach warren was at like 50% when the SCV could have scouted yet they missed the RW EACH TIME. It's sad how comfortable Terran players have been getting and this pretty much shuts down hellion and rine only openings.
I am curious if banshees would make a difference if a Terran was teching and then realized you were going roach. I guess it seems like the best counter is 3 rax with rauders and marines.
This was a very good thread read and great OP. Thanks for this !
EDIT:
On March 16 2011 23:17 antilyon wrote: I didn't watch the replays because i'm at work but answer this please.
As a T i have one question, what happens if someone hold your push while expoing ? 2 bunker at nat should be enough to hold this (but yes, a terran wouldn't put 2 bunkers if he doesn't know this is coming).
I mean, terran would par on bases + mules and you would have much less larva due to late queens isn't? BTW, at what mark this 11 roach push comes?
In the replays he busts down the walls by bringing an overlord to the cliff to take out supply depots or barrack's that are not in range of bunker fire. It's really smart and gives your roaches a much wider concave. Once the Terran lifts his barracks you have a nice choke to walk through.
And when I was looking at the income tabs during the games [bc I was curious about the economic disadvantage] it was funny as you see the Z and T go from even income tabs to the Z staying at about 460-500M and the Terran shoot up to about 800 because of the MULE. Don't forget that the Terran has to pull SCVs and can't build SCV's during the orbital build time, so that keeps the game on an even field. Once you push you are forcing him to pull SCV's onto buildings on fire to repair. There's so much damage being dealt by the roaches that it requires more than just 2-3 to repair (as many Terrans were doing in the replays). Once they pull more than 5 your economy is on par and sometimes superior to the Terran economy, so it balances out even if you only harass with this, but it seems like Terrans can't stop this from happening since they aren't scouting properly anyway.
I tried it on the silver ladder today and went 2 for 2. One time against a protoss and once vs terran. I believe that both of my opponents spotted my early expansion and likely changed their build accordingly.
he protoss went for a 2 gate zealot push and was simply crushed by the roaches. This build can be somewhat viable against the protoss army if you push early and you don't scout a starport. I am sure this equation would work out quite differently on the higher tiers of play. If you went for 5 or so fast roaches and then researched metabolic boost. You could do a variation on the 3 roach speedling all in.
I really like this build because it throws a wrench in the scouting process/decision making that most players are used to.
On March 16 2011 23:44 lodidodi- wrote: This opening is very interesting, at least to me, and it definitly throws the opponent off. What would tip him would be the 15 hatch after scouting pool gaz first, which is obviously no queen, so it would tip to scout the fast roach warren.
I think the reason is that when the pool finishes, you start a queen ALWAYS (well except in this build). If you make that queen, you won't see it, and Z won't have the minerals to drop a warren before lings can kill his worker. So leaving is the smart decision (albeit the wrong one).
I have a question, doesnt 0 queen mean you auto lose to banshee + bunker builds?
Also on 2nd thoughts, your relying on "scouting" but if the map isnt very large, you will easily spot the order that everything not to mention deny that "16" hatch forever because the scv SHOULD be at your natural delaying it. If he puts down an ebay your not going to be getting very much production for a long time FORCING you to either inbase hatch or queen. On larger maps or in positions where your scouted last this may work, but that is like crossing your fingers and hoping he doesn't find you.
It's a nice concept of strategy, but it just relies too much on trying to fool an opponent as opposed to having a strong economic or offensive build. I don't think it's something I'd be interested in.
I also think that if the terran just goes mass marines (which is logical considering they are supposed to think zerg is going economy, right?) zerg might get stomped because roaches do not do very good against marines, especially when they have to break a ramp which can have a bunker, and tech lab which could start producing marauders.
Considering how uneconomical the build appears to me, it makes for an extra blow against zerg in situations where the terran plans for low tier aggression (namely marines).
I think you'll find that in small numbers (ie before the 7 minute mark) that roaches do pretty damn well against marines. And they most certainly wont have +1 (unless you meant stim) and theyre only going to have that if they go for a very quick stim timing push (not even totally sure theyd have it then) and to get it that early would mean cutting out on the tanks that theyre really going to want to stop this.
I dont understand why you think you need a queen to stop a bunker rush? the bunker is going to be built well before the queen at your nat is made to defend from that you need drones to transfer.
And about not being able to put the hatch down. I get my 15hatch down in every ZvT I play at about 3k masters and I see the same thing in pro games, engi block on natural isnt really worth it IMO especially if i pool first. Lings out kill the eng bay then expo and your behind.
On March 17 2011 00:27 Xapti wrote: It's a nice concept of strategy, but it just relies too much on trying to fool an opponent as opposed to having a strong economic or offensive build. I don't think it's something I'd be interested in.
I also think that if the terran just goes mass marines (which is logical considering they are supposed to think zerg is going economy, right?) zerg will get stomped because roaches do not do very good against marines, especially when marines are upgraded (not that marines would have time to be upgraded by then).
Considering how uneconomical the build appears to me, it makes for an extra blow against zerg in situations where the terran plans for low tier aggression (namely marines).
Actually roaches are an excellent counter to marines in smallish numbers. I also reread your timings, 5-6minute mark is a very dangerous timing, mainly because if the terran is doing a timing thats when his will come. if its stim you can bet theres marauders in it, if its banshees... well auto lose. The reason builds like 3,5,7 roach rushes are so good and powerful is that they all hit BEFORE this first timing by terran.
Edit: @boonsolo: I don't think you can get a 16 hatch AFTER extractor + drone + pool + 2 drones down. 15 hatch is a whole 375 minerals faster. Also I think Engo bays are quite worth it depending on how long you let it build, if you let it build to about 95% then your going to spend about 30secs killing a 700HP building that will only cost him 30 minerals. The reason alot of people dont do it is simply because you cant get it down in time or the drone is right there already trying to expo not coming a minute later to expo
On March 16 2011 23:17 antilyon wrote: I didn't watch the replays because i'm at work but answer this please.
As a T i have one question, what happens if someone hold your push while expoing ? 2 bunker at nat should be enough to hold this (but yes, a terran wouldn't put 2 bunkers if he doesn't know this is coming).
I mean, terran would par on bases + mules and you would have much less larva due to late queens isn't? BTW, at what mark this 11 roach push comes?
The push can come anywhere between ~5:30 and 6:30. This depends on exactly how you execute it, and when you decide to engage. If there's less stuff, you engage earlier with fewer roaches while the others are en route.
TheDoctor (3600 master) said he thinks the correct response to this would just be double bunkers (off 2-rax) but that he never does that because he's cocky (which is why he felt he lost).
If they hold the push, it won't be by a lot, and it will be by turtling. There isn't really a way to safely expo with this number of roaches on the field unless you went marauder, but given the game situation, it's exceedingly unlikely you had the fortitude to manage a marauder heavy army composition.
While you find a way to safely expand (a defensive banshee, siege mode, marauder + stim bio ball less so), Z just double queens and drones up, or goes for the all-in (the former is more likely I think).
I can't recall which replay(s) offhand where this happened, but I was definitely NOT behind when the attack failed. I attacked, did a fair trade of damage to roaches lost, and we were basically even afterward.
While I think it would be wrong to call this something other than cheese, it is most certainly NOT an all-in by any standard. You have a secure expansion before you even attack and with your standing army you can quickly secure a large boom in economy.
On March 16 2011 23:18 Chaosvuistje wrote: And on the reply/view issue. People in the strategy forum tend to like to bash other peoples guides or bad posts rather than hail good posts. This in turn causes the bad guides and threads to move up, while the good ones slowly die down. Resulting in people calling the strategy forum a shithole.
Someone told me my posts are too cerebral or information-filled, and so there aren't as many of the usual questions to ask. Perhaps if I just limit the information initially, I can get lots of "your idea sucks because of X" and build up some pages of adament posters I piss off.
Thanks, i'll ask my friend to try against me later and try to find holes in this build. If i find any, i'll post here to help developing this build.
But it seems like a really stable build now that you explained it.
On March 17 2011 00:33 wackedupwacko wrote: Actually roaches are an excellent counter to marines in smallish numbers. I also reread your timings, 5-6minute mark is a very dangerous timing, mainly because if the terran is doing a timing thats when his will come. if its stim you can bet theres marauders in it, if its banshees... well auto lose. The reason builds like 3,5,7 roach rushes are so good and powerful is that they all hit BEFORE this first timing by terran.
Yeah I edited my post to explain better (but replied earlier): when the marines are inside their wall and/or on top of a ramp, they have a considerable advantage against roaches. They will also have, or the ability to construct, a bunker, and most likely marauders as well.
While they may attack before the terran pushes out, that is just as bad of a scenario as it is a good scenario, since the terran gets fast re-inforcement, a choke point advantage with range advantage, and potential bunkers.
Another issue is that this is NOT a 7 RR. 7RR are fast, and the most popular one is essentially the most efficient one known. When you build a hatchery after pool, that sort of efficiency goes down the drain. The timing that was once barely or ample time before most terran attack will turn into a too late or barely enough timing.
Like I agree it could be a very effective trick, which can win games, but because of that it's inefficient.
or you could 7rr and expand as you push out and hit at a better time. when i 7rr people think i expand seeing that I make 2 lings to push away the scout and send a drone down "acting like" i'm going to expand at that moment.
On March 17 2011 00:43 majestouch wrote: or you could 7rr and expand as you push out and hit at a better time. when i 7rr people think i expand seeing that I make 2 lings to push away the scout and send a drone down "acting like" i'm going to expand at that moment.
Yeah although I think that must be overly popular, because terrans seem to always send a 2nd SCV scout afterwards, at least at medium to high level. when their second scv gets by (which it will unless you built like 8 zerglings, or 6 zerglings and were lucky/good), they will see whether you've expanded or not, which will decide their reaction. It is why the hatch feint is so effective. They will not be able to get into your base (unless you're terrible), so they will decide based off what they can see, the expo.
On March 17 2011 00:27 Xapti wrote: It's a nice concept of strategy, but it just relies too much on trying to fool an opponent as opposed to having a strong economic or offensive build. I don't think it's something I'd be interested in.
I also think that if the terran just goes mass marines (which is logical considering they are supposed to think zerg is going economy, right?) zerg might get stomped because roaches do not do very good against marines, especially when they have to break a ramp which can have a bunker, and tech lab which could start producing marauders.
Considering how uneconomical the build appears to me, it makes for an extra blow against zerg in situations where the terran plans for low tier aggression (namely marines).
This build is basically a 1 base roach build except for the fact that you can transition into a macro game much easier. You normally get a 150 mineral queen anyways, so you're basically just using your extra hatch as an expensive queen. But the difference is when you decide to go macro, you already have your expo up, you just have to saturate it. I personally think 1 base marines would get roflstomped by this build. This is really weak to air, but dropping an preventative evo early on would probably be a decent investment. That way if you scout a banshee, you can just drop a couple spores and be fine. if he does go air though, your roach timing attack is going to steam roll him unless he has bunkers and marauders already out. Oh, and pure marines are crap against roaches. Roaches have over triple the life of a marine, plus higher DPS, for an extra 25/25. Normal one base marine aggression is basically exactly what this build counters.
On March 17 2011 00:37 Grapefruit wrote: Does this also work when you're going hatch first?
I haven't tried it because I greatly dislike any hatch-first play just as a general rule. A hyper-aggressive opponent can auto-win if he does a 2-rax with a proxy 3rd. I'm sure if you could get away with hatching first, you could be fine though.
July's "no queen" build was 15hatch 14gas 13 pool I believe.
On March 17 2011 00:43 majestouch wrote: or you could 7rr and expand as you push out and hit at a better time. when i 7rr people think i expand seeing that I make 2 lings to push away the scout and send a drone down "acting like" i'm going to expand at that moment.
Yeah although I think that must be overly popular, because terrans seem to always send a 2nd SCV scout afterwards, at least at medium to high level. when their second scv gets by (which it will unless you built like 8 zerglings, or 6 zerglings and were lucky/good), they will see whether you've expanded or not, which will decide their reaction. It is why the hatch feint is so effective. They will not be able to get into your base (unless you're terrible), so they will decide based off what they can see, the expo.
I think you are misinformed at best (both of you). I explain why 7RR is different than this in the OP, but maybe I should be clearer.
7RR expand is like a silver league strategy. It worked in early diamond for a bout a week before people realized what it was. 7RR expand is very easily both scouted and countered. You can't do either of those here.
it's easy to say "oh well I can make marauders and siege tanks and banshees and you only have roaches." Try doing that in a real game when you scout ling speed, 15pool/gas and 16hatch. There's no way you're going to do that.
banshee harass in standard 1-1-1 will get absolutely shit on because if you do that, you won't have anything to defend your ramp with, and 4-5 roaches will be able to start the attack instead of 9-11.
7RR expand is a really terrible build in all honesty in 1v1. I used it when I played 2v2 a lot before I started 1's, and this is nothing like it. It's the same in that you send roaches at your opponent with your first push, but that's about where the commonality lies. You can abandon this build at any point and come away unscathed, and you can also very easily transition into anything you want.
On March 17 2011 00:38 Xapti wrote: Like I agree it could be a very effective trick, which can win games, but because of that it's inefficient.
This is not a trick... it's a very economical, standard opener that quickly transitions into very hard aggression. If by "inefficient" you mean "doesn't hit with the same force as 7RR at the same time" then sure you're correct. But in order to hit with that force, you must allow yourself to be very easily scouted, which is what dooms 7RR-e as a noob strategy.
On March 17 2011 00:51 Sm3agol wrote: This build is basically a 1 base roach build except for the fact that you can transition into a macro game much easier. You normally get a 150 mineral queen anyways, so you're basically just using your extra hatch as an expensive queen. But the difference is when you decide to go macro, you already have your expo up, you just have to saturate it.
I am aware of that, I am not mentally challenged. The issue is that the hatchery slows the roach attack substantially. You don't get the larva as fast as with a queen, and you pay over 200 extra minerals for it. That gives extra time for the terran to build more units.
On March 17 2011 00:51 Sm3agol wrote: I personally think 1 base marines would get roflstomped by this build. ...
Oh, and pure marines are crap against roaches. Roaches have over triple the life of a marine, plus higher DPS, for an extra 25/25. Normal one base marine aggression is basically exactly what this build counters.
Roaches are essentially double the cost of a marine. They have more health, but not only is their DPS lower than 2 marines, but their overkill is quite high because of the delay in a roach's attack. They also have less range, so when roaches come knocking on a barracks wall, they have to kill barracks and repairing SCVs while marines get free shots in— that's also not including potential of marauders or bunker. I don't think you're factoring in all the trouble that zerg has to deal with.
On March 17 2011 00:51 Sm3agol wrote: This build is basically a 1 base roach build except for the fact that you can transition into a macro game much easier. You normally get a 150 mineral queen anyways, so you're basically just using your extra hatch as an expensive queen. But the difference is when you decide to go macro, you already have your expo up, you just have to saturate it.
I am aware of that, I am not mentally challenged. The issue is that the hatchery slows the roach attack substantially. You don't get the larva as fast as with a queen, and you pay over 200 extra minerals for it. That gives extra time for the terran to build more units.
On March 17 2011 00:51 Sm3agol wrote: I personally think 1 base marines would get roflstomped by this build. ...
Oh, and pure marines are crap against roaches. Roaches have over triple the life of a marine, plus higher DPS, for an extra 25/25. Normal one base marine aggression is basically exactly what this build counters.
Roaches are essentially double the cost of a marine. They have more health, but not only is their DPS lower than 2 marines, but their overkill is quite high because of the delay in a roach's attack. They also have less range, so when roaches come knocking on a barracks wall, they have to kill barracks and repairing SCVs while marines get free shots in— that's also not including potential of marauders or bunker. I don't think you're factoring in all the trouble that zerg has to deal with.
You're missing the entire point of this build FYI. You aren't hitting any timing window. You're baiting one of:
a) marine aggression b) hellion aggression c) 1-1-1 tech d) terran FE
Of which this build hard counters all.
And it isn't something like canceling or hiding tech where your opponent scouting would cost you the game. It's having him scout the lack of something that he already can't really know is in production, but has to assume it is (queen).
On March 17 2011 01:01 michaelhasanalias wrote: This is not a trick... it's a very economical, standard opener that quickly transitions into very hard aggression. If by "inefficient" you mean "doesn't hit with the same force as 7RR at the same time" then sure you're correct. But in order to hit with that force, you must allow yourself to be very easily scouted, which is what dooms 7RR-e as a noob strategy.
It is not nearly as economical as many other builds. Yes it is not as efficient as a Roach rush, but economy wise it is poor as well. 15 pool 16 hatchery is not an economic opening, especially when used without queens and with a roach warren. An early hatchery means nothing when you don't have the drones to mine with. Getting a hatchery fast is not the same as in SC1 - when you want to produce both offensive units and drones, queens are superior, hatcheries are only good once you have enough drones, or if you want the option to trick the opponent. I should clairify that am not calling the build just a trick, it is the option for a trick, since you do not need to do the roach attack.
On March 17 2011 01:10 michaelhasanalias wrote: You're missing the entire point of this build FYI. You aren't hitting any timing window. You're baiting one of:
a) marine aggression b) hellion aggression c) 1-1-1 tech d) terran FE
Of which this build hard counters all.
You're mistaken, I understand the point of the build. The thing is a factory-barracks opening (1-1-1 or hellion aggression or marine-tank) is a decision made fairly early on, and when you go 15 pool 16 hatch it's not something that is baiting it any more than other builds (at least I don't see it). I don't think it's a bad build overall, I just know it is not efficient if the roaches don't deal damage, which I would say is a huge possibility unless they happen to be running a build you want them to run.
I disagree that it counters marine aggression. As a terran, once the bunker is down, you cannot use your 4-6 lings to do anything hence you have t o wait til about 3-4 roaches to pop. By that time I have usually started my CC and if saw roaches coming i instantly send my marines out and salvage then start another bunker in my base, if not 2.
Hellion aggression i will agree that it stops dead in its tracks but note. you cannot push the terran if he has a reactor Factory in play. (you move out i move in, you have no queen to defend not to mention hellions would have easily scouted the first few roaches and terran can start marauders).
Blue flame, yes you will probably destroy that cant argue there.
1-1-1 tech. It is very unlikely that you can walk all your roaches to his base before he spots them. A good terran will contest the xel naga with 2 marines. Now theres 2 variations of 1-1-1 or 1-1 teching, 1 is siege tanks, which this build will roll over and die to mainly because by the time you get there tank 2 should be on the way if not out (depends on how you spend your gas) and high likelihood of siege mode (if that is the tech).
Against 1-1-1 banshee open, I ask again, how are you able to stop the banshee that is in your base killing drones while his second banshee defends. Even if you start your queens as you move out, the banshee will be hovering near your base and you would have no economic lead nor tech. If cloak is on the way then your going to be way behind simply due to your late lair. if there is no cloak then there is an expansion already building.
FE: is iffy depending on how greedy the terran is. However do note that if terran is FEing, there is a good chance he'll scout your natural to check your drone count. The last thing i want is a baneling bust hence i check the drone count at the natural with another scv if my initial is killed.
Hey OP, I like this build a lot. I'm curious what maps on the current ladder pool this works well on, and which you've had troubles with. I'm gonna watch the replays when I get home.
If you 15 hatch 15 or 16 pool, you can grab 1 queen and 1 roach warren on 18, when your hatch/overlord finish. I also wouldn't be confident in getting a 16 hatch down after pool, their scout should easily delay it for a bit. By 15 hatching, you get a slightly more economic advantage, and your warren isn't very delayed. I'd make the first queen at your expo and throw down a creep tumor to start.
On March 17 2011 01:13 Xapti wrote: It is not nearly as economical as many other builds. Yes it is not as efficient as a Roach rush, but economy wise it is poor as well. 15 pool 16 hatchery is not an economic opening, especially when used without queens and with a roach warren. An early hatchery means nothing when you don't have the drones to mine with. Getting a hatchery fast is not the same as in SC1 - when you want to produce both offensive units and drones, queens are superior, hatcheries are only good once you have enough drones, or if you want the option to trick the opponent. I should clairify that am not calling the build just a trick, it is the option for a trick, since you do not need to do the roach attack.
.....
You're mistaken, I understand the point of the build. The thing is a factory-barracks opening (1-1-1 or hellion aggression or marine-tank) is a decision made fairly early on, and when you go 15 pool 16 hatch it's not something that is baiting it any more than other builds (at least I don't see it). I don't think it's a bad build overall, I just know it is not efficient if the roaches don't deal damage, which I would say is a huge possibility unless they happen to be running a build you want them to run.
15 pool 16 hatchery is not an economical opener? Even if you don't make more drones, the 2nd hatchery opens up 3-4 additional close mineral patches that can be mined, increasing net income by ~50/min, which is a big deal when you only have 14 drones. It's certainly LESS economical than someone who makes 11 more drones instead of up to 11 roaches, but, for lack of tact, no shit sherlock...
The "early on" decision is made after the depot scout in most cases. Therefore, you can use the information you get to decide whether or not to execute whatever you had in mind. While 2-raxing is a decision made pre-emptively, the decision to aggress or defend is made AFTER the scouting. For 1-1+-X the decision on whether to banshee harass, thor rush, tank rush, marauder rush, blue flame hellion/etc, quick drop, etc is made after scouting.
And you're right, no push is efficient if it doesn't do damage. This has nothing to do with this build. If you execute any timing push and don't do damage, you're behind. By that logic almost every timing push is bad because good scouting will allow a timely counter. I still contend you're missing the big picture here, but you're free to continue disagreeing on these lesser points.
If you think 11 roaches aren't going to deal any damage, I think you should reconsider.
On March 17 2011 01:48 Wintertime wrote: If you 15 hatch 15 or 16 pool, you can grab 1 queen and 1 roach warren on 18, when your hatch/overlord finish. I also wouldn't be confident in getting a 16 hatch down after pool, their scout should easily delay it for a bit. By 15 hatching, you get a slightly more economic advantage, and your warren isn't very delayed. I'd make the first queen at your expo and throw down a creep tumor to start.
I think the issue with this is that now you've just made a greedy opener susceptible to standard 2-rax aggression, delayed the warren further, and invested in a queen that can't be supported with roach production. The tumor you make is similarly not useful to you for the purposes of this attack.
If I were to do all the things you mention, I think this would just become standard play.
On March 17 2011 01:25 wackedupwacko wrote: I disagree that it counters marine aggression. As a terran, once the bunker is down, you cannot use your 4-6 lings to do anything hence you have t o wait til about 3-4 roaches to pop. By that time I have usually started my CC and if saw roaches coming i instantly send my marines out and salvage then start another bunker in my base, if not 2.
Hellion aggression i will agree that it stops dead in its tracks but note. you cannot push the terran if he has a reactor Factory in play. (you move out i move in, you have no queen to defend not to mention hellions would have easily scouted the first few roaches and terran can start marauders).
Blue flame, yes you will probably destroy that cant argue there.
1-1-1 tech. It is very unlikely that you can walk all your roaches to his base before he spots them. A good terran will contest the xel naga with 2 marines. Now theres 2 variations of 1-1-1 or 1-1 teching, 1 is siege tanks, which this build will roll over and die to mainly because by the time you get there tank 2 should be on the way if not out (depends on how you spend your gas) and high likelihood of siege mode (if that is the tech).
Against 1-1-1 banshee open, I ask again, how are you able to stop the banshee that is in your base killing drones while his second banshee defends. Even if you start your queens as you move out, the banshee will be hovering near your base and you would have no economic lead nor tech. If cloak is on the way then your going to be way behind simply due to your late lair. if there is no cloak then there is an expansion already building.
FE: is iffy depending on how greedy the terran is. However do note that if terran is FEing, there is a good chance he'll scout your natural to check your drone count. The last thing i want is a baneling bust hence i check the drone count at the natural with another scv if my initial is killed.
It's pretty obvious that this counters marine aggression, as every variant of early roach aggression does. whatever you pushed with is going to die. Bunker/marines/SCV. It's not like the roaches will auto attack the salvaging bunker while you walk away clean.
I will say that 2-rax aggression followed by double bunker will probably defend this build if you have good building positioning, but the problem is that you won't be able to expand, while I can drone freely and macro up. You also won't know if I've committed to roaches, or gone speedling heavy, or simply abandoned the build as soon as I shit on your 2-rax aggression.
Are you really going to build 2 bunkers when you scout 3 roaches off a late pool FE? Maybe you will, but if you do, there's no reason I have to stay committed to the build (and I don't think I would in this situation you mention).
1-1-1 tech loses to this outright. You don't have enough stuff to defend. It's easy to say "oh well I'd have a 2nd tank on the way." 11 Roaches will 2-shot a tank with 8 SCVs on it.
1-1-1 into banshee play, good luck. If you manage the fastest banshee of your life you'll get it out by 6 minutes after I've broken your ramp with my first 4-5 roaches. And while your 1 banshee whacks at the roaches killing all your SCVs, I can double queen and be fine. You can't have a banshee in my base, have one in your base killing 11 roaches, and have this happen by 6 minutes. It's just not possible. Even if you build your starport next to my hatchery in my base, you can't start killing my drones until I have already broken your wall with the initial roaches.
You seem to think that you can get a banshee out at 4 minutes into the game or that I'm not leaving my base until 7 minutes in game time.
(I do think the point you make about 2-rax and double bunker is a valid one though. The issue is that I can abandon this build at no negative cost if you do that or I suspect you will do it.)
I will have to play around with this idea a bit. I am quite sure that the terrans I face are overconfident, as I have about 50% win chance by just baneling busting. So this is a nice alternative when I feel like being aggressive.
15 hatch - > 16 pool is not economical because it sits on 3 larva for a while. 11 roaches is very powerful if you can walk them next to your opponent and hit his wall. The question is the big if there. there are many ways to scout this and adjust your build.
I am not saying that it is a bad build, I just feel that for what you are trying to achieve, it is too easily stopped and if it is stopped then you are not in a very strong economic position. I feel that given this build or a speedling/bling bust, it is alot more economical to use that and be alot harder to spot. no terran will believe something is wrong if theres 6 speedlings running around but every terran will if they see 1 roach.
On March 17 2011 02:06 wackedupwacko wrote: 15 hatch - > 16 pool is not economical because it sits on 3 larva for a while. 11 roaches is very powerful if you can walk them next to your opponent and hit his wall. The question is the big if there. there are many ways to scout this and adjust your build.
I am not saying that it is a bad build, I just feel that for what you are trying to achieve, it is too easily stopped and if it is stopped then you are not in a very strong economic position. I feel that given this build or a speedling/bling bust, it is alot more economical to use that and be alot harder to spot. no terran will believe something is wrong if theres 6 speedlings running around but every terran will if they see 1 roach.
Well, this is a 15 pool / 16 hatch build, so there aren't 3 larva sitting around, and you make overlords and/or lings with the excess larva while you wait for the warren. If yo uspend 2 larva, you will have 3rd pop as the warren does (if properly timed).
Please explain "there are many ways to scout this and adjust your build."
Also please do more than generalize "it's too easily stopped so it's bad." You don't give any reasons.
Last, they won't see a roach if you make lings. That's where the "optional" part comes in. Do what you need to do hide the tech. The deception built-in to this opener is very high. And even if he scouts the warren, you can just make 1-2 roaches, bait an over-response or tech switch, and continue with your meta boost, then double queen/drone and be none the poorer from standard play.
This is much more difficult to scout than a ling/bling bust, but due to the structure of your final two sentences, I'm unsure if you feel my build or the ling/bling bust is better.
On March 17 2011 01:45 Albrithe wrote: Hey OP, I like this build a lot. I'm curious what maps on the current ladder pool this works well on, and which you've had troubles with. I'm gonna watch the replays when I get home.
Hey, Michael, don't forget about the people with legitimate questions! (not just build bashing, as most of these posts seem extremely baseless)
On March 17 2011 01:45 Albrithe wrote: Hey OP, I like this build a lot. I'm curious what maps on the current ladder pool this works well on, and which you've had troubles with. I'm gonna watch the replays when I get home.
Hey, Michael, don't forget about the people with legitimate questions! (not just build bashing, as most of these posts seem extremely baseless)
Ah, sorry I didn't see. I haven't had any trouble on any specific map. Because this build is based on countering, and not hitting a timing window, it is much more forgiving on range and maps.
Also, because you can spot double OLs abutting either side of your opponent's ramp, you can similarly harass on either side without risking the single OL you'd otherwise have.
I have the following maps downvoted:
Scrap Station Delta Quadrant Typhon Peaks
So, maybe this build could be less effective on these maps, but I don't like these maps to begin with (Scrap because of rush distance and I cheese a lot, TP because it's very big and new, and DQ simply because I never play on it. I think if I were a better player I'd pick DQ over BG, but I like BG a lot.)
On March 17 2011 02:06 wackedupwacko wrote: Edit: responding to some of your claims. 11 roaches may 2 shot tanks, question is how do you 2 shot tanks if they GREATLY outrange your roaches AND destroy them hella fast , are you really going to try and suicide up a ramp WITH marines (and most likely a bunker) you would lose at least 1 roach getting up before you take your first shot. If theres siege mode you cant attempt it and be economical in keeping enough roaches alive.
You have prehaps misunderstood regarding the banshees. There is no reason a terran going banshee will not have scouted your roaches. a hellion is part of the build simply because you can scout with it, kill a billion non speedlings and harass while still doing the build economically. Now if you march across the map with 4-5 roaches, it cant break a bunker in time before banshees are out (you can test this if you like) you MAY get a depot depending on positioning. Further there is 2 variants of the banshee build, cloak or expo. if its cloak then even if you take the time to fend off the roaches , your lair is so delayed that it is a close race for detection. you are already low on drone count and even with queens out a good terran can kill 2-3 drones per banshee before flying away with 1 queen at a base.
I also believe you do not understand the current concept of 2 rax pressure. The goal is to force the zerg to make lots of units to break it not to "kill" things. That in itself does damage simply because the zerg invested quite alot into units that the terran will see and defend accordingly. Hence if the bunker goes up and you make roaches then you have already one what the 2 rax was designed to do.
There's way too much theorycrafting and what-if-then's going on to produce an effective reply to most of this, but regarding the 2-rax pressure:
You're not going to accomplish anything when the Zerg player doesn't plan on making more drones for the foreseeable future. You can't 2-rax anyone who goes for an early warren. You will lose on that trade every time, no exception. You don't come out ahead when you deal no damage and lose your standing army + 1-3 SCVs. The damage you "deny" in my making units is mitigated by your losing everything you pushed with.
Further, by extending that same logic to loosely address all the theorycrafting you did above, my roach army isn't exactly going to be unhecked in your base... you have to pull SCVs off mining to repair when I'm harassing or your wall will crumble. No matter how you wall, there are holes where roaches can harass unchecked, and you'll be forced to lift or let your buildings die. Once that happens, the roaches can walk in. And if you really think you can get a banshee out in time to stop this by going 1-1-1, then I think you should play against this build.
1-1-1 banshee loses almost outright to just about every kind of early roach aggression, and this is by no means an exception.
Ok I am not trying to bash your build and that its a nice "funky" strat to have, I feel that it is reliant on the opponent not scouting you. Without speedling you can't truly have early map control. That is the key problem i find with the build compared with speedling baneling. I will go through a few terran opens just to explain the terran perspective.
2 rax: rally rines IF bunker goes up and you make roaches after about 1 minute its served its purpose, I have an expo building, i know you made roaches. Normal 2 rax progression is techlab as to get stim. begin marauder production with 1 rax. bunker at the top of the ramp will be very hard to break, you can scout this but it is not much of a deviation from normal 2 rax progression and it will serve its purpose.
Adv: Terran unless you do damage with your roaches. You may light contain him but it is rather moot point, it just means that his income will be lower for a short period of time but scv production should be at least equal to drones if not greater.
NOTE: If a terran rallies more than 5 rines to your base then hes going to all in you and im not sure if 3-4 roaches that you pop immediately can break all in marines. there will be about another 5-6 marines at your base as you kill the bunker and the things inside.
Against Rax stim timing: Coin Flip. Some go Marine Marauder. That will be a big problem for roaches, stim MM chew through roaches in similar numbers. If its Marine only then it should be fine to break.
Against 1 Rax FE very viable if unscouted. If scouted it is a problem because the production capacities will kick in soon and double bunker turtling is enough. Once production kicks in you will be hard pressed to continue pressuring. However i do concede alot of terrans dont scout but all it takes is a glance at your saturation at your natural to figure it out. If you dont do damage with roaches, you are behind because of the amount of larva dedicated to roaches.
Reactor helion: a bit old but still an opening. first 2 hellions will encounter roach. that will trigger the reponse of either marauder or tanks. Also you probably cannot move out with all your roaches. It is neither a net gain or loss but you will have little to no map control for a while.
Blue Flame: build order counter, easy win for zerg
Marine tank: you state that 11 roaches 2 shot tanks. I ask how do you hit the tank? tanks out range roachs by QUITE a bit. they do insane damage unsieged and sieged to roaches and there will always be marines to support. if you win it is more likely that the terran did not micro correctly rather than a good counter.
Banshee: you state that you attack earlier, but with less roaches a bunker stops it in its tracks. 1 scouting hellion is part of the build. There is plenty of time to get that first banshee up if you attack earlier by delaying. If you attack with 11 roaches all together then the first banshee is out, and a second is popping out. The banshee follow up is usually command centre so if it results in nil damage on either side then nothing will come of it.
2 port banshee: the all in version of the above build, similar idea to banshee but it will be alot harder to stop the banshee counter attack.
By all means it can catch a terran offguard, but it is not economical in anyway as it sacrifices economy to apply early pressure. If there is little to no damage then you are quite a ways behind even if you start immediate drone production. ( you will be sub 20 drones when you get 11 roaches where as terran should easily be in the 20s) .
Again i stress that the build truly counters no scouting by the terran rather than terran builds.
Very nice idea for a build. I'll have to try this next time I spawn close positions on ST, Metal or DQ.
On March 17 2011 02:55 wackedupwacko wrote: Ok I am not trying to bash your build and that its a nice "funky" strat to have, I feel that it is reliant on the opponent not scouting you. Without speedling you can't truly have early map control. That is the key problem i find with the build compared with speedling baneling. I will go through a few terran opens just to explain the terran perspective.
The OP says that the build includes 0-6 zerglings with speed optional. Personally I would definitely want to build 4-6 to deny all scouting. The greatest strength of this build is misinformation.
I tried it vs a plat player (will most likely be diamond soon if you look at his stats) and got bunker rushed and he managed to take my nat hatchery down. Mostly due to me messing up alot and sloppy play. Once I got a few more roaches up I rolled him easily even with only one hatch left.
The question I got is how I should react to marauders? They are not likely unless he manages to scout the warren but sometimes T just gets a few marauders anyway.
I've only managed to try it once (where are the terrans on ladder??) and he delayed my expo. My roaches fended off his rine attack easily but he bunkered up and I was unable to push up his ramp. Took my expo and started droning when I saw his CC building. I still had like 8 roaches, but I figured marauders would come so once I hit saturation+2 gas, I went mass speedling with some blings. Caught his army while it was on the move, then went over and destroyed his base.
I think with the roaches you basically just feel more aggressive with what you can do. Those two bunkers and scvs coming to repair could do nothign against my 8 roach+speedling army.
On March 17 2011 10:05 vojnik wrote: wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow?
Single OL positioning needs to cover the whole ramp, and so is vulnerable to a scoot-n-shoot down and back up the ramp. Because of the time you attack, you can easily have 2, and possibly three overlords positioned around his ramp.
The first OL you send should go to the far side of his ramp, while the 2nd will just be positioned. Most players will have a bunker if they suspect anything, or at least some buildings on the perimeter (because they must wall). All of the buildings on edge are susceptible to free roach harass. Even though Roaches only have 4 range, the buildings give them an effective range of 6 or 7, > Hellions and > Marines. (In other words, the terran units must be behind these buildings to get in position to shoot.
With 11 Roaches, the goal isn't necessarily to bust through the wall, but to destroy it outright. Killing Terran's unit-producing structures is a sure-fire way to really crush him, moreso than killing his workers. Forcing him to lift an orange or red building has the same function because it won't be able to land during the exchange, and therefore can't produce.
So TL;DR - you'll have two OLs, and each one is positioned caddy-corner to the ramp, so neither is in range of marine fire.
On March 17 2011 10:05 vojnik wrote: wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow?
Single OL positioning needs to cover the whole ramp, and so is vulnerable to a scoot-n-shoot down and back up the ramp. Because of the time you attack, you can easily have 2, and possibly three overlords positioned around his ramp.
The first OL you send should go to the far side of his ramp, while the 2nd will just be positioned. Most players will have a bunker if they suspect anything, or at least some buildings on the perimeter (because they must wall). All of the buildings on edge are susceptible to free roach harass. Even though Roaches only have 4 range, the buildings give them an effective range of 6 or 7, > Hellions and > Marines. (In other words, the terran units must be behind these buildings to get in position to shoot.
With 11 Roaches, the goal isn't necessarily to bust through the wall, but to destroy it outright. Killing Terran's unit-producing structures is a sure-fire way to really crush him, moreso than killing his workers. Forcing him to lift an orange or red building has the same function because it won't be able to land during the exchange, and therefore can't produce.
So TL;DR - you'll have two OLs, and each one is positioned caddy-corner to the ramp, so neither is in range of marine fire.
let me rephrase, what if you overlod gets killed by a marine before the attack, i see some terrans do that they scout around the main to shoot down OVs, thus SBing you and delaying the incoming roaches? Have this happened to you before?
OP, I know this is a vT strat, but I'm wondering about the viability of this in ZvP (because it just seems to fit so well.) I just tried your build once against the Very Easy AI, screwed it up, and still had 12 roaches at 6:50. I'm not sure about 15 pool 15 gas, because I screwed it up and did 14 gas/14 pool and ended up with way too much gas. But in my screw up, you could very easily get those roaches AND Ling Speed, hit with your initial roaches, and then follow it up with a speedling all-in.
On March 17 2011 13:16 Enyalus wrote: OP, I know this is a vT strat, but I'm wondering about the viability of this in ZvP (because it just seems to fit so well.) I just tried your build once against the Very Easy AI, screwed it up, and still had 12 roaches at 6:50. I'm not sure about 15 pool 15 gas, because I screwed it up and did 14 gas/14 pool and ended up with way too much gas. But in my screw up, you could very easily get those roaches AND Ling Speed, hit with your initial roaches, and then follow it up with a speedling all-in.
Thoughts? Have you tried this before?
See the discussion thread linked in OP about No Queen FE aggression builds
On March 17 2011 10:05 vojnik wrote: wow pretty cool strat man i am deffinetly gonna try this, however i have 1 question, what happens if your overlord gets killed somehow?
Single OL positioning needs to cover the whole ramp, and so is vulnerable to a scoot-n-shoot down and back up the ramp. Because of the time you attack, you can easily have 2, and possibly three overlords positioned around his ramp.
The first OL you send should go to the far side of his ramp, while the 2nd will just be positioned. Most players will have a bunker if they suspect anything, or at least some buildings on the perimeter (because they must wall). All of the buildings on edge are susceptible to free roach harass. Even though Roaches only have 4 range, the buildings give them an effective range of 6 or 7, > Hellions and > Marines. (In other words, the terran units must be behind these buildings to get in position to shoot.
With 11 Roaches, the goal isn't necessarily to bust through the wall, but to destroy it outright. Killing Terran's unit-producing structures is a sure-fire way to really crush him, moreso than killing his workers. Forcing him to lift an orange or red building has the same function because it won't be able to land during the exchange, and therefore can't produce.
So TL;DR - you'll have two OLs, and each one is positioned caddy-corner to the ramp, so neither is in range of marine fire.
let me rephrase, what if you overlod gets killed by a marine before the attack, i see some terrans do that they scout around the main to shoot down OVs, thus SBing you and delaying the incoming roaches? Have this happened to you before?
On every map there are good places to hide the OLs until you need them. If he pushes out to try and kill he will lose his marines most of the time.
On March 17 2011 13:49 Schnieder.sc2 wrote: Have you tried this vs any 2 port banshee? I dont see it under the Replay list and think that the banshees could provide alot of trouble?
I think one of the replays was a guy trying 2-port banshee but failed. The timing just isn't there vs a zerg going roaches. Just about any roach aggression is going to auto-win vs 2-port banshee. That kind of strat is best against a speedling FE opening or hatch first. If he rushed gas before rax and got a quick fact for 2-port to get those banshees by about 6minutes, he might have one out while the roaches are destroying his entire base, and two late banshees are going to simply not deal enough damage on the attack to the roaches that can walk in almost for free.
2-Port banshee relies on that wall holding and you using the money you'd use on units to tech faster. The factory you don't use, the two starports + tech labs + cloak + banshees researching is all an investment that won't pay off when I'm attacking you.
Can we get someone with credibility to comment on this? I'd like to have another build in my toolbelt, but seeing "it worked great in diamond/platinum!" makes me leery of trying it in Masters.
About the bancheese, I can see it going either way really. The real question is, will the terran be able to get the bancheese up in time? It seems really close. It sounds like it would be in favor of the terran, since it would take a while for the roaches to bust through the wall, and then still take some more time to kill any bunkers, and then actually destroy the starport before a banshee pops. If 2 bansheese manage to pop off a double starport build, a terran who realizes what is happening would be able to just fly to your base, kill a large amount of drones before your 2 queens pop, kill the queens, and then kill off the rest of your stuff, while his base just flies around. 2 bancheese come out, and as a zerg doing this build, you would be 100% dead, even after forcing all his buildings to lift off, killing all his ground army, and all of his workers. So this would really depend on timing a LOT, it would all come down to a few seconds, zerg realizing whats up (2port) and going straight for the starport kill ignoring any SCVs thrown his way, terran going straight for the zerg main, ignoring the fact that his base is being trashed. It might depend on spawn positions too.
Its too hard to tell, since its so close, and both sides just have theorycrafting, banshee ppl saying they would get the bancheese out in time, zergs saying the roach timing would hit too early.
Perhaps incorporating an early scout that attempts to gas steal would be a good idea to deter 2port bancheese? Has anyone actually experienced it? Could we see a replay instead of all the theoricrafting? Replay would help more than anything at this point, since without a replay, its all useless theorycrafting.
Here are replays from the games i played yesterday, systematically using this opening in all match-ups (input from a 2900 EU diamond player - mediocre level)
On March 17 2011 02:55 wackedupwacko wrote: Ok I am not trying to bash your build and that its a nice "funky" strat to have, I feel that it is reliant on the opponent not scouting you.
Exacly, it relies on the opponent not scouting it. But that's the whole point of the build, the opponent can not scout it (without wasting a scan).
This is how I would write the build order:
scout around 12 ? 15- pool 15- extractor 16- hatch 15- 2 sets of lings @scout denied- roach warren 16-overlord x2 roaches
This is the point of getting pool first, you deny scouting before starting the roach warren.
On March 17 2011 17:20 brain_ wrote: Can we get someone with credibility to comment on this? I'd like to have another build in my toolbelt, but seeing "it worked great in diamond/platinum!" makes me leery of trying it in Masters.
You can try the build yourself and see what you think... The majority of people who read these forums are plat/diamond level players who are trying to bump themselves up. You can't fault my OP because of this reaason.
There's a game vs. a 3700 Master terran who is ~top 300 NA. That should be at least something.
On March 17 2011 18:30 lodidodi- wrote: Here are replays from the games i played yesterday, systematically using this opening in all match-ups (input from a 2900 EU diamond player - mediocre level)
On March 17 2011 17:48 morimacil wrote: About the bancheese, I can see it going either way really. The real question is, will the terran be able to get the bancheese up in time? It seems really close. It sounds like it would be in favor of the terran, since it would take a while for the roaches to bust through the wall, and then still take some more time to kill any bunkers, and then actually destroy the starport before a banshee pops. If 2 bansheese manage to pop off a double starport build, a terran who realizes what is happening would be able to just fly to your base, kill a large amount of drones before your 2 queens pop, kill the queens, and then kill off the rest of your stuff, while his base just flies around. 2 bancheese come out, and as a zerg doing this build, you would be 100% dead, even after forcing all his buildings to lift off, killing all his ground army, and all of his workers. So this would really depend on timing a LOT, it would all come down to a few seconds, zerg realizing whats up (2port) and going straight for the starport kill ignoring any SCVs thrown his way, terran going straight for the zerg main, ignoring the fact that his base is being trashed. It might depend on spawn positions too.
Its too hard to tell, since its so close, and both sides just have theorycrafting, banshee ppl saying they would get the bancheese out in time, zergs saying the roach timing would hit too early.
Perhaps incorporating an early scout that attempts to gas steal would be a good idea to deter 2port bancheese? Has anyone actually experienced it? Could we see a replay instead of all the theoricrafting? Replay would help more than anything at this point, since without a replay, its all useless theorycrafting.
Here's a replay I just played vs 2port banshee. I don't know how well or poorly he executed it, but it went pretty much exactly as I expected.
To comment the experience I've had with this opening, I'd say it defintly works on larger maps as well, if you're lucky enough not to get cross position on Typhoon peaks and Backwater Gulchas it might be hard to get an overlord there in time.
I failed against a protoss 4gate + forge on one base only because of poor choicemaking on my side, same against fast void ray with a single cannon behind the wall, attacking the cannon would have given me the win easy peasy lemon squeezy.
The other comment i would make concern "transitions" : against 1-1-1 opening, depending on terran's building placement, it's possible he succeeds to pop a banshee. You've normally killed enough scv's that you can stop attack, start queens at both expansion, stop the attack and play safely, it's freewin later on. Just be patient.
There is a game with baneling nest instead. I think i went 16 hatch 15 pool 14 gas, as Michael said in another topic about no queen FE, He thinks it's what July did in a GSL game against Nada. It did enough damage, and had to keep on playing normally knowing the win would come later. The spirit behind this is the same though, and it's pretty interesting : you will do damage so long you make good decisions (and this come with playing games with this opening), and know when to stop, start queens and droning.
On March 17 2011 17:48 morimacil wrote: About the bancheese, I can see it going either way really. The real question is, will the terran be able to get the bancheese up in time? It seems really close. It sounds like it would be in favor of the terran, since it would take a while for the roaches to bust through the wall, and then still take some more time to kill any bunkers, and then actually destroy the starport before a banshee pops. If 2 bansheese manage to pop off a double starport build, a terran who realizes what is happening would be able to just fly to your base, kill a large amount of drones before your 2 queens pop, kill the queens, and then kill off the rest of your stuff, while his base just flies around. 2 bancheese come out, and as a zerg doing this build, you would be 100% dead, even after forcing all his buildings to lift off, killing all his ground army, and all of his workers. So this would really depend on timing a LOT, it would all come down to a few seconds, zerg realizing whats up (2port) and going straight for the starport kill ignoring any SCVs thrown his way, terran going straight for the zerg main, ignoring the fact that his base is being trashed. It might depend on spawn positions too.
Its too hard to tell, since its so close, and both sides just have theorycrafting, banshee ppl saying they would get the bancheese out in time, zergs saying the roach timing would hit too early.
Perhaps incorporating an early scout that attempts to gas steal would be a good idea to deter 2port bancheese? Has anyone actually experienced it? Could we see a replay instead of all the theoricrafting? Replay would help more than anything at this point, since without a replay, its all useless theorycrafting.
Here's a replay I just played vs 2port banshee. I don't know how well or poorly he executed it, but it went pretty much exactly as I expected.
Hm, well it still looks very tight, but its a lot closer than Id like. If hed made the tech lab on his factory, he definitely could have started his banshee from the first starport before the roaches arrived. And if hed used the rax to make a tech lab for the second starport, or got a slightly earlier second gas and cut an SCV, and then made both the tech labs on the factory before the starports finished (since he didnt make the standard scouting hellion), then he could have started both banshees before the depot fell. Or if hed had a marine scouting around the map and delayed the overlrd a bit, he could have delayed the bust long enough to have the 2 bansheese underway. After that, its just a matter for him to delay with his marines and SCVs until the bansheese finish, and rush them towards the zerg while lifting off.
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly. However, any mistep by terran would cost him the game, so at anything below masters, it should kill bancheese without any problems.
I haven't countered this build or watch the replays yet, but from the build order and timing, it seems to be a nice build. As a Terran, I must say that if you indeed have 8 roach pressure around 6 minutes mark, you basically deny most of Terran conventional aggression, and even cripple him hard. - Bunker rush is weak against pool first, following by roaches. - greedy expand with bunker is basically dead. - if the Terran go banshee, he should barely make it. I don't know if bunker can defend against roach push with overlord spotting though. imo banshee strat is weak against this build. You literally have to pull most of your scv to repair the bunker if the roaches focus fire it. And even if the Terran have banshee, Zerg should be able to have queens with 3,4 drone lost at max. - Blue flame hellion is weak.
I just wonder about hellion+marauder push strat. Normally when the Terran go reactor hellions, he usually switch to tank and expand when he sees roaches. But there's the build that Terran go 2 rax 1 fact on 1 base and pump out marauders+hellion and do a timing push. I don't know this strat can stop it or not. Someone please play and upload a replay :p.
Overall, this is a nice strat. It basically counter a lot of Terran aggression build. Of course if Terran goes with the boring turtle rax expand without putting any pressure, he has no problem defending this strat (I don't think defending is countering though), but hey that's the whole point of it, no pressure = win.
On March 18 2011 00:42 canikizu wrote: I haven't countered this build or watch the replays yet, but from the build order and timing, it seems to be a nice build. As a Terran, I must say that if you indeed have 8 roach pressure around 6 minutes mark, you basically deny most of Terran conventional aggression, and even cripple him hard. - Bunker rush is weak against pool first, following by roaches. - greedy expand with bunker is basically dead. - if the Terran go banshee, he should barely make it. I don't know if bunker can defend against roach push with overlord spotting though. imo banshee strat is weak against this build. You literally have to pull most of your scv to repair the bunker if the roaches focus fire it. And even if the Terran have banshee, Zerg should be able to have queens with 3,4 drone lost at max. - Blue flame hellion is weak.
I just wonder about hellion+marauder push strat. Normally when the Terran go reactor hellions, he usually switch to tank and expand when he sees roaches. But there's the build that Terran go 2 rax 1 fact on 1 base and pump out marauders+hellion and do a timing push. I don't know this strat can stop it or not. Someone please play and upload a replay :p.
Overall, this is a nice strat. It basically counter a lot of Terran aggression build. Of course if Terran goes with the boring turtle rax expand without putting any pressure, he has no problem defending this strat (I don't think defending is countering though), but hey that's the whole point of it, no pressure = win.
Hellion-Marauder works well vs this build IMO. I played vs someone who did that and although I won, it wasn't because of a strat counter but just superior execution imo.
At that though, I really feel like hellion/marauder is a horrible strat to do vs pool/+1hatch, as that's trademark speedling defense, which would crush hellion/marauder.
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly.
So let me get this right, you just saw a replay where a 2 port banshee is like 100s late to defend this, and your conclusion is a "flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily".
Sorry no, not even close, at least from the replay.
In the replay, the terran loose his supply depot 5second before even starting the banshee. In the replay, michale forgot to make lings to deny scouting, so the roach warren is 5s early. Let's imagine, you don't need a reactor to make banshee, so the banshee can start 25s sooner, and the roach warren is delayed by 5s. The banshee build time is 100s. That leaves 75s to the roaches (after killing the first supply depot) to do damage against only 5 marines... Even if your starports don't get sniped during that time, there won't be much left in your base.
And the bottomline is: it takes 35s+30s to get spore colonies up, and 50s to make queens. The zerg will be more than ready to kill 2 puny banshees.
I really do like this but I have one major problem with it and its that none of the games are past 10 minutes and you never build more than 15 drones but at the end of the game every time you have ~300 minerals and no queens on the way for the later game with 3 larva at each hatchery i feel this could be much stronger if you stopped at maybe 8-10 roaches and made only drones while attacking then transition into something. but as it is now its just another roach rush
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly.
So let me get this right, you just saw a replay where a 2 port banshee is like 100s late to defend this, and your conclusion is a "flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily".
Sorry no, not even close, at least from the replay.
In the replay, the terran loose his supply depot 5second before even starting the banshee. In the replay, michale forgot to make lings to deny scouting, so the roach warren is 5s early. Let's imagine, you don't need a reactor to make banshee, so the banshee can start 25s sooner, and the roach warren is delayed by 5s. The banshee build time is 100s. That leaves 75s to the roaches (after killing the first supply depot) to do damage against only 5 marines... Even if your starports don't get sniped during that time, there won't be much left in your base.
And the bottomline is: it takes 35s+30s to get spore colonies up, and 50s to make queens. The zerg will be more than ready to kill 2 puny banshees.
Well he was only 5 seconds away from starting the banshee, and his build was quite sloppy. A banshee also only take 60 seconds to build, not 100.
Queens were not even started yet, and 2 bansheese easily take care of 2 queens. even 2 bansheese against 2 queens, and 3 spores, since the bansheese have the same range as spores, with good micro, you can still do a ton of damage, and the zerg on 13-14 drones doesnt really have the economy to make 2 queens and an evo and 3 spores anyway.. Sure enough, the terran would lose all his SCVs, and marines, and supply depots, and addons, and generally wouldnt really be able to actually defend, but if 2 bansheese start, the zerg is pretty much dead in that scenario. even if he does manage to survive by turning all his drones into spores, and getting 2 queens asap, the terran still has 2 bansheese, a floating orbital, a rax, a factory, and 2 starports. Basically, mules+ a full tech tree vs a zerg on 1 base and T1, with like 5 drones. So then its not even close even if the zerg does manage to survive the 2 bansheese.
Wow, this is quite scary and very easy to execute, but most of your opponents played very sloppy. I think a well executed 1 - 1 reactor hellion should be able to beat this. The replay in which your opponent does that it is like 20 seconds too late and you didn't even have lings out before, so he could have easily scouted your RW with his initial SCV.
If anyone wants to test it I'm available on EU server Bommes.403
From the looks of it, a flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily, especially if the terran hangs around a bit with initial SCV, thus delaying the roach warren significantly.
So let me get this right, you just saw a replay where a 2 port banshee is like 100s late to defend this, and your conclusion is a "flawless 2port bancheese would kill this off easily".
Sorry no, not even close, at least from the replay.
In the replay, the terran loose his supply depot 5second before even starting the banshee. In the replay, michale forgot to make lings to deny scouting, so the roach warren is 5s early. Let's imagine, you don't need a reactor to make banshee, so the banshee can start 25s sooner, and the roach warren is delayed by 5s. The banshee build time is 100s. That leaves 75s to the roaches (after killing the first supply depot) to do damage against only 5 marines... Even if your starports don't get sniped during that time, there won't be much left in your base.
And the bottomline is: it takes 35s+30s to get spore colonies up, and 50s to make queens. The zerg will be more than ready to kill 2 puny banshees.
Well he was only 5 seconds away from starting the banshee, and his build was quite sloppy. A banshee also only take 60 seconds to build, not 100.
Queens were not even started yet, and 2 bansheese easily take care of 2 queens. even 2 bansheese against 2 queens, and 3 spores, since the bansheese have the same range as spores, with good micro, you can still do a ton of damage, and the zerg on 13-14 drones doesnt really have the economy to make 2 queens and an evo and 3 spores anyway.. Sure enough, the terran would lose all his SCVs, and marines, and supply depots, and addons, and generally wouldnt really be able to actually defend, but if 2 bansheese start, the zerg is pretty much dead in that scenario. even if he does manage to survive by turning all his drones into spores, and getting 2 queens asap, the terran still has 2 bansheese, a floating orbital, a rax, a factory, and 2 starports. Basically, mules+ a full tech tree vs a zerg on 1 base and T1, with like 5 drones. So then its not even close even if the zerg does manage to survive the 2 bansheese.
I agree that banshees are pretty good against any early roach aggression. I've had several frustrating games where they base trade with 2 fast banshees vs a queen while my roaches are killing everything that doesn't just lift off. Then the zerg is stuck with roaches that cant hit air units vs banshees that can kill anything left without being touched.
Like with the pooling larva for roaches on 1 base you need to transition to mutas quickly, since mutas and roaches aren't cheap I guess you might be able to sustain that without queens (which would suck protecting 2 bases vs mobile banshees). That's assuming you do enough damage with the roach push to make up for your gimpy economy.
I'll give this build a try, feels pretty bad that my ZP build is a 3RR, and now my only terran builds are cheesey roach openings too.
On March 18 2011 01:51 Sega92 wrote: I really do like this but I have one major problem with it and its that none of the games are past 10 minutes and you never build more than 15 drones but at the end of the game every time you have ~300 minerals and no queens on the way for the later game with 3 larva at each hatchery i feel this could be much stronger if you stopped at maybe 8-10 roaches and made only drones while attacking then transition into something. but as it is now its just another roach rush
I think this is a great and insightful comment honestly.
The replays I posted are of me executing it, and I personally try to end games as quickly as possible, and that's just (a flaw in?) my personality. So, yes, I think you could do something like 6 lings, speed, 8 roaches, then double queen whe you push and macro hard.
It's quite possible you could secure a huge advantage in doing so. The issue with that is that it prolongs the game when I feel I can just end it outright. The money gets high because I concentrate on microing completely so that I can deal the most possible damage, with the intention of ending the game right then and there if at all possible. Yes, I do think this is a flaw in my own gameplay.
Perhaps the prudent player could use this strategy merely to secure a quick and decisive advantage in the opening minutes of the game.
You can easily secure a contain until the opponent makes a banshee, so if he hadn't planned this, you can delay his expansion by a few minutes and almost force him into 1-base bio (due to gas constraint).
I think games that go for more than 10 minutes should be where they see whats up and do something that makes you bail from the attack. If everything is going well and you are smashing it then why work on econ for later instead of ending it. If they cut scvs, pump marauders and turtle up on 1 base then you should be thinking econ.
Reading the terran cheese thread, they mentioned moving the rax to the bottom of the ramp was worth it since the rush distance is a few seconds shorter. Could you proxy the hatch somewhere sneaky, or do you need it scouted at the nat, or close enough to get roaches to your main at the start?
Did no one watch day9 funday monday when Day9 was like holy shit, going without a queen could literally be better in some cases then getting an early queen. This was like 5 months ago, lol. The second I heard that I was like, fuck I wish I knew how to play Z, I'd rock that shit.
A banshee also only take 60 seconds to build, not 100.
Oh true, does not change the issue though.
Queens were not even started yet, and 2 bansheese easily take care of 2 queens. [...]zerg on 13-14 drones doesnt really have the economy to make 2 queens and an evo and 3 spores anyway
Queens could have been started, he had enough ressources, and with the unspent gas that could have been minerals, he also had enough for the evo chamber. With his economy he can make 5 spore colonies immediately after the evo chamber.
Also, in the replay he keeps making slow roaches untill the end. Speedligns are better for reinforcement. I would put drones off gas, and make lings & queens instead of the 4 last roaches that are too late to do anything anyway. With 2 queens it's much less all-in, and it leaves the possibility to defend banshees with 4 queens.
On the other hand, if he only makes roaches, he can skip ling speed, that's enough ressources for 1 free queen full of energy in addition to the 2 built in reation to the starport.
a floating orbital, a rax, a factory, and 2 starports. Basically, mules+ a full tech tree vs a zerg on 1 base and T1, with like 5 drones. So then its not even close
Yes, it's not even close, because there are still 10 roaches preventing the OC to land.
Well i finally tried, and got 7 wins out of 7 against Master Terrans on the ladder, and 1-2 against Protoss. To me, it`s not very viable, i got a win because of the control i carry from BW, but the two guys i`ve lost to were actually descent, so i dont think that it exactly works against Protoss.
On March 18 2011 12:04 MERLIN. wrote: Did no one watch day9 funday monday when Day9 was like holy shit, going without a queen could literally be better in some cases then getting an early queen. This was like 5 months ago, lol. The second I heard that I was like, fuck I wish I knew how to play Z, I'd rock that shit.
which daily was that? must have missed it.
On March 18 2011 12:04 zergrushkekeke wrote: I think games that go for more than 10 minutes should be where they see whats up and do something that makes you bail from the attack. If everything is going well and you are smashing it then why work on econ for later instead of ending it. If they cut scvs, pump marauders and turtle up on 1 base then you should be thinking econ.
Reading the terran cheese thread, they mentioned moving the rax to the bottom of the ramp was worth it since the rush distance is a few seconds shorter. Could you proxy the hatch somewhere sneaky, or do you need it scouted at the nat, or close enough to get roaches to your main at the start?
Hmm.......
I think if you decide to proxy a hatch, you HAVE to scout first. Here's what I see:
a) Terran decides to 2-rax. He scouts late pool and then hatch and decides to push you. Because of this push, he has time to turtle and hold the aggression, even though he lost. His poor choice was dictated by his poor scouting but it works in his favor.
b) Terran decides to 2-rax. He scouts late pool and hatch and decides it's best to play it safe since he's guaranteed to lose on this exchange if zerg is competent. He plays for the speedling harass or expands (safely? :troll and gets overwhelmed by roaches and loses the game.
c) Terran decides to 2-rax. He scouts no expansion and just defends and expands. He is overrun by roaches and loses the game.
d) Terran decides to go standard 1-rax OC and upon scouting hatch decides for hellion harass. He loses from build order win.
e) Terran decides to go standard 1-rax OC and upon scouting NO hatch decides to prepare for 1-base aggression, expanding slightly later, and easily holds. Your proxy hatch is doomed as soon as he finds it.
If you can get away with it it will definitely hit harder though, but then there is really no transitioning away from it. on XNC you could take his 5th, and maybe on ST you could take your 3rd if it's cross position... I don't know how I feel about it, but it sounds interesting and worth considering.
Im doing this against every terran I meet on the ladder, and its definitely very very good. Now the next step will be that terrans will hang around the main with their initial SCV instead of going to block the hatch. It wuld be nice to see if there is some way of getting a pair of lings first, and then the roach warren, but still managing to get there on time to do damage with the roaches.
After that, terrans will figure out a safe build to do that can hold this off. Thats good. We need to keep doing this build until terrans find a way to counter it reliably, and then force them to open that way every game. A marauder opening for example seems like it would work really well against the roach opening. Personally, I really wouldnt mind it if terran was forced to open up with marauders or a bunker just because if they dont, they risk dying to roaches, similar to how zergs are forced to open with lingspeed or roaches, because if we dont, we risk dying to pressure. Using this cheese repeatedly to force terrans to actually play it safe in the early game, and force them into something specific, will do a lot to ease the pain as zerg, and overall evolve the matchup. In the end, hopefully it will be somewhat similar to PvT, where no matter how the toss opens up, they are forced to get a robo in case of bansheese, thus bottlenecking all PvT builds through the threat of agression. Lets bottleneck TvZ builds! :D
On March 18 2011 21:49 morimacil wrote: Im doing this against every terran I meet on the ladder, and its definitely very very good. Now the next step will be that terrans will hang around the main with their initial SCV instead of going to block the hatch. It wuld be nice to see if there is some way of getting a pair of lings first, and then the roach warren, but still managing to get there on time to do damage with the roaches.
After that, terrans will figure out a safe build to do that can hold this off. Thats good. We need to keep doing this build until terrans find a way to counter it reliably, and then force them to open that way every game. A marauder opening for example seems like it would work really well against the roach opening. Personally, I really wouldnt mind it if terran was forced to open up with marauders or a bunker just because if they dont, they risk dying to roaches, similar to how zergs are forced to open with lingspeed or roaches, because if we dont, we risk dying to pressure. Using this cheese repeatedly to force terrans to actually play it safe in the early game, and force them into something specific, will do a lot to ease the pain as zerg, and overall evolve the matchup. In the end, hopefully it will be somewhat similar to PvT, where no matter how the toss opens up, they are forced to get a robo in case of bansheese, thus bottlenecking all PvT builds through the threat of agression. Lets bottleneck TvZ builds! :D
The great thing about this build is that it blind counters a lot of cheese and greedy plays like tech or FE.
If they are proxy rax (with or without scv all in) you hold it and come out ahead for an auto win.
If they go blue flame hellion, you can bust in and clean up, very easy.
A bunker contain won't work either, as you can put your hatchery in your main and it has almost no affect on the build.
2rax agression is held off and you can attack after that.
One build I noticed that could fare well is if T opens with reapers. You have to hold back a few roaches to protect your drones and hatchery, and defending is easy, but you will have about 2 less roaches at their base, AND they already have a techlab on the rax so they will just get out some marauders. Luckily reaper harass is practically a cheese and isn't seen that often.
Once T players get used to the FE roach build though they will start to just add tech labs on their rax after they scout it, get a bunker and get out marauders. They might have to cancel some tech, which is a plus for z, but they can hold it with a switch to marauders, and they don't have to worry too much about speed lings as you won't have enough larvae to get lots of roaches and lings.
On March 18 2011 23:38 P00RKID wrote: The great thing about this build is that it blind counters a lot of cheese and greedy plays like tech or FE.
If they are proxy rax (with or without scv all in) you hold it and come out ahead for an auto win.
If they go blue flame hellion, you can bust in and clean up, very easy.
A bunker contain won't work either, as you can put your hatchery in your main and it has almost no affect on the build.
2rax agression is held off and you can attack after that.
One build I noticed that could fare well is if T opens with reapers. You have to hold back a few roaches to protect your drones and hatchery, and defending is easy, but you will have about 2 less roaches at their base, AND they already have a techlab on the rax so they will just get out some marauders. Luckily reaper harass is practically a cheese and isn't seen that often.
Once T players get used to the FE roach build though they will start to just add tech labs on their rax after they scout it, get a bunker and get out marauders. They might have to cancel some tech, which is a plus for z, but they can hold it with a switch to marauders, and they don't have to worry too much about speed lings as you won't have enough larvae to get lots of roaches and lings.
Oh wow, I must be a fucking idiot to have not realized you could just hatch in your main.
Against 2-rax I think this is a good idea. They will think speedlings anyway, which you can transition to later with the macro hatch.
I've had no trouble dealing with bunker contains though. Marines just don't do enough damage against the hatch, and it only needs to survive while you produce 3-4 roaches with it (~1min).
To everybody talking about banshee builds countering this, consider the fact that by the time these roaches are up the terran will have MAYBE 1 banshee, You can sack his base once the banshee gets to yours. If he goes for a base trade he loses and if he pulls back to kill the roaches then you just make 2 queens and drop an evo chamber.
This is a pretty nice opener, I went into the thread thinking "pfft no queen, gtfo" but it seems like it can definitely be viable. I'll try it later after the GSL thingy thats coming on :D
This sounds odd but this build worked against a masters league player who knew it was coming and tried to proxy rax to stop it on xel naga caverns. He killed my natural(I got 2 larvae from it) and as he tried to move into my main 5 roaches popped (3main 2nat) which decimated 8 marines. I went to the proxy and when he lifts we are equal in resources lost(few more marines died). My nat is rebuilding during this time, I make a queen, and I immediately counter... a few min later after destroying his supply depots/bunkers I walk in and with some stop micro it's gg. Being smart with your overlords and using them for vision is key.
Shall do as soon as Im happy with the build, and have enough of them.
I dont think the build in the OP is optimal though. Its good, sure, but I think it can be better. for 1, Im pretty sure that you can safely get lingspeed, with no effect on the roach timing, so there should be no reason not to do it, that way, they can scout the lingspeed, and it should allow an easier transition out of the build. 2, Im pretty sure that making some lings after the pool finishes isnt optional. You kinda need them to lay down your hatch, and to prevent scouting by later SCVs. I think you can also squeeze out a drone or 2 there. 3, there is too much gas, so drones should be pulled off gas at some point. 4, with managing to squeeze out 1-2 extra drones, and pulling guys off gas at some point, it should be possible to afford a queen, and then either drone up, or make lings, since you got lingspeed.
I dont really think that making the lings should be that needed, but its good to have lingspeed for later, to transition out of it. Also think its bad to just make roaches nonstop. I think 8 roaches should be enough, though not sure on the exact number quite yet, perhaps just 6-7 would work, perhaps 10-11 are needed. From what Ive seen, if you dont break in with the first 8 roaches, you wont break in with 10 more coming along. So at this point, it would be wise to just make the required number of roaches to break in, and if you do, you kill him/cripple him, and if you dont, well you have all drones on minerals, an expo, 1-2 queens coming along, and are pumping pure drones while being relatively safe. Also wondering about a lair timing if I manage to find a somewhat decent way to transition out of it without being crippled, if it should be done straight away, so not pulling guys off gas, but just getting a lair directly, lingspeed ->8? roaches->lair, or lingspeed->8? roaches -> full minerals pumping drones for a while -> lair.
Most of the time, hes at around 20 SCVs when you hit him, and you at around 14-15. So only really 5 behind (plus mules -_-). If the push fails due to a bunker plus enough stuff to hold your roaches, then its not a tech build, its a build with lots of marines and/or marauders. And you still have the roaches, and he cant really move out before stim. So even though youd be 5 drones behind, it would give you quite a while to drone up relatively safely behind your 8? roaches. Dunno, seems like with a few tweaks here and there, the build might be able to transition if the rush fails, and thus not be all-in anymore. But havent found out how to do it yet, hope its possible though :D I need more terrans to queue up on the ladder!
14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas, the another drone. 4 lings as soon as pool pops, then roach warren as soon as lings pop and drone/SCV is out. Overlord, drone, overlord. then 4 roaches as soon as the warren pops, and 3 more right after that. then queen then drones, overlords, and lingspeed at 100 gas, and pull guys off gas after 100. then more drones and overlords.
The roaches start building at 4:25. That gives you 2 bases, 1 queens, and 32 drones at the 7 minute mark. Lingspeed at 80/110. Thats an economy thats pretty much equal to what a terran would have at that point in the game. (he would have like 27 workers and mule) Thats the best transition Ive managed to find so far in a BO tester. Are 7 roaches enough? Are they fast enough? what happens if he stays in and lets his SCV get killed by the lings instead of running it away? What happens if he blocks the hatch? Still a few questions to be answered, but that build looks like it has the potential for major damage, just like the one from the OP, but also with the posibility of an economic transition.
And 14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas would look even more tempting for a terran to try and abuse, imo, with the later gas :D What do you guys think?
after trying this out, I have to say that I was wrongly doubtful. You can get a queen AND the same amount of roaches at the same time, but the extra 30-40s you have to wait until the first roaches are at their base make a pretty big difference, because 2-3 roaches can actually delay the bunker a lot - and they have to pull scvs earlier. I think this might be a good way to open on close position. About the banshees, gas stealing should help delay them quite a bit.
On March 19 2011 02:35 morimacil wrote: 14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas, the another drone. 4 lings as soon as pool pops, then roach warren as soon as lings pop and drone/SCV is out. Overlord, drone, overlord. then 4 roaches as soon as the warren pops, and 3 more right after that. then queen then drones, overlords, and lingspeed at 100 gas, and pull guys off gas after 100. then more drones and overlords.
The roaches start building at 4:25. That gives you 2 bases, 1 queens, and 32 drones at the 7 minute mark. Lingspeed at 80/110. Thats an economy thats pretty much equal to what a terran would have at that point in the game. (he would have like 27 workers and mule) Thats the best transition Ive managed to find so far in a BO tester. Are 7 roaches enough? Are they fast enough? what happens if he stays in and lets his SCV get killed by the lings instead of running it away? What happens if he blocks the hatch? Still a few questions to be answered, but that build looks like it has the potential for major damage, just like the one from the OP, but also with the posibility of an economic transition.
And 14 pool 15 hatch 14 gas would look even more tempting for a terran to try and abuse, imo, with the later gas :D What do you guys think?
I like where you're going with this, and perhaps it should be broadened up more. On its face, the idea of not getting a queen sounds so gimp, but the tradeoff is basically creep adjoining your base (which is for the queens you wouldn't have) for very solid standing army and an expansion that is immune to everything except maybe a perfect double proxy gate.
When you FE you always use those first injects on creep tumors because you can't support the larva no matter what your build is, and so in this light, getting a queen slightly later can really be of tremendous advantage, at least insofar as we're starting to see in this thread by posters.
I don't want to go so far as to say this "vein" of play could or should be a new standard, but it's just so adaptable, and it's nice to think that zerg at least has a real option of being able to flip a switch and go heavy econ or semi-all-in at the drop of a hat.
Also, regarding the ling speed. I always start ling speed while the warren is building, and sometimes before so that even if I don't have lings, the scouting worker will see my 2 building overlords + bubbling spawning pool and think "lings and ling speed" and proceeds to run away.
Being able to get 60 seconds of meta speed researched before having to cancel it is very nice, because you get that extra time to scout and make your decision.
On March 17 2011 00:37 Grapefruit wrote: Does this also work when you're going hatch first?
I haven't tried it because I greatly dislike any hatch-first play just as a general rule. A hyper-aggressive opponent can auto-win if he does a 2-rax with a proxy 3rd. I'm sure if you could get away with hatching first, you could be fine though.
July's "no queen" build was 15hatch 14gas 13 pool I believe.
Theeeeeeeeere. I did a quick build test against computer in the morning and wanted to try against a real opponent (3200+ master). Now i understand why he's going for hatch first. It's because of the scouting scv which has all the time to block my expansion for a long time. If you really want to play pool first, i think you should opt for a quick pool instead of putting it at 15 or even worse 16. Something like p11 after a gas trick. You can always make a gas to trick ur opponent, and go for an expand. I really don't understand why you're going for p15 though... It WAYYYYYY late and does nothing but troubles imo.
The current ZvZ meta seems to be shifting to a significant amount of Zerg doing a hatch-first variant of this build. I honestly don't see why you wouldn't hatch first in ZvT anyway unless you're in some ultra-close positions anyway, since it would actually encourage a player to 2rax, and it would make the build even HARDER to scout since it would look like such a standard opening for ZvT anyway.
Well the reason not to hatch first here, is that you can get your lings up slightly earlier, thus shoo the scouting SCV away slightly earlier, and thus start your roach warren slightly earlier, and so your roaches arrive at his base slightly earlier, and so on. And by slightly earlier, I mean 45 seconds earlier. at 14 drones and 200 minerals, you start the pool, instead of moving out, making a hatch, making 2 more drones, getting another 200 minerals, and then only starting the pool. And really, I dont think hatch first makes it much harder to scout. I mean, 14 pool 15 hatch? No way in hell that this looks unorthodox, or will alert the terran to any form of cheese
These guys are like at 1500-2500k masters, so nothing top notch, but not bronze either.
The good news is, my build works, kind of. I was able to decently transition to a macrogame with a giant advantage in 2 of them, outright killed my opponent in the other 2. The bad? news, is that Im not sure the transition is really needed In those games where I did transition out of roaches, and made more drones, and got lingspeed, and outmacroed them....well those games felt like if Id just kept making roaches instead of taking the giant advantage, and making a queen plus some drones, I probably would have just outright won. The other thing is, against a 2rax build, its really good, but it feels incredibly aqward to try and transition out of it. Usually, he will have a second CC, and 3 rax up, so if you just kill a bunch of marines and SCVs, and then go home... with double mules, plus the rest of his SCVs, he can regain a macro disadvantage quite fast. Plus, with no lingspeed, its kinda trivial for him to make some marauders with his marines, and push you back, so if you drone hard, especially on close positions, it feels super risky. But if you dont, then with double orbital, he can catch up and outecon you pretty fast, at least thats the feeling I get. So in most cases, against 2rax I think that the best solotuion is to just keep making roaches for a while, its very hard for him to keep up anyway, since hes got the same amount of workers as you, but has to keep repairing with a lot of them, and your roaches are more costeficient than his marines if the marines exit the bunkers.
4-0 today with the build, 6-1 altogether, and the loss was the first time I used the build, where I got greedy and made only 2 lings as the OP suggested, he came back to scout with his SCV, and scouted a roach popping, he had time to make a techlab, a marauder, and a bunker, since it was on scrap station.
So Id say the build is pretty damn good :D Now I just need to play against a terran that can actually hold this off without knowing that its coming beforehand, and then once that happens a couple of times, Ill be able to tell if its actually beneficial to try and have a way to transition out of it, or if its better to just all-in. Also, since the opening is so normal, you pretty much could do it reactively. 14 pool 15 hatch, and if hes 2raxing on close positions, roach warren and go kill him. Its kind of hard to try and think about using the build reactively when ive had no losses with it that I wouldnt have been able to avoid though, since so far, I cant really think of anything I would scout that wouldnt make me wanna do this. Even seeing a rax with a techlab on it, its going to be blueflamed hellions 90% of the time, so no need to worry about marauders...
I was thinking maybe it's worth saving money until you do not have SCV in your base. Delaying roach warren does not seem to be bad idea because you are not getting all of roaches at the same time anyways.
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
On March 20 2011 21:56 Alpina wrote: Ok, so what does counter your build?
I was thinking maybe it's worth saving money until you do not have SCV in your base. Delaying roach warren does not seem to be bad idea because you are not getting all of roaches at the same time anyways.
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
Check my post slightly above, but still on page 5 for a build based on the same idea, but that delays the roach warren until the lings pop to chase the SCV out of your base, and for the planned followthrough that makes it not all-in, or my post witht the replays to see me playing it, and transitioning out of it.
As for what exactly counters it... thats still out there Seriously, so far, my opponents just havent been able to counter it. I can tell you what it beats though. 2rax, hellions, 1 port banshees, any type of fast expand. I suspect that the counters to it would be opening up with a reaper, or going for some sort of 3 rax stim timing. Both of which are pretty damn uncommon. 2 port banshee MIGHT be able to beat this too, but not sure. The jury is still out there on that one. It crushes any suboptimal 2 port banshee build though.
On March 20 2011 21:56 Alpina wrote: Ok, so what does counter your build?
I was thinking maybe it's worth saving money until you do not have SCV in your base. Delaying roach warren does not seem to be bad idea because you are not getting all of roaches at the same time anyways.
Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
It's not even close to being all-in..... There's never a point where you can't instantly abandon and drone up on 2 bases.
The only thing I've found that "beats" my build honestly is the number of really shitty SEA players I've been playing against. The guys that will 2-rax you anyway even when they scout pool first, because they are too noob to know you will always lose in that exchange.
but since they are bad anyway I try to all-in them. About 1/3 of the time they manage to get bunkers up and hold, and then it goes into a normal game.
There's not really any counter at all, because it's a very economical opener that you can be extremely flexible with.
The only thing I can think of that could be devastating is some hyper aggressive double 10rax SCV all-in or something equally goofy, but no one good is going to do anything like that, especially when there's no way to know what you're doing.
The best way to deal with that playstyle is a) not 2-rax (or if you do, don't aggress), or b) be content on double OC'ing one-base for the short term. Make banshees slowly while keeping strong defense (double bunker), and just play standard.
This build doesn't beat a player who plays conservatively. It beats a player who thinks he can get away being greedy or being very aggressive vs whatever zerg is doing (blue flame Hellion vs FE, 2-rax vs a late pool/FE, 2-port banshee, tank drop, etc etc.)
The whole point IMO, is to really show the power of NOT getting a queen super early, and what advantages and disadvantages that entails. If you FE, not getting a queen doesn't hurt you AS LONG AS YOU GO ROACHES for a short while. And roach is a pretty safe unit.
Even if you did something similar to this build, got ling speed, and only made a handful of roaches, you'd be basically immune to every form of aggression that terran can throw at you in the opening minutes of the game, and that is a strong reason to consider using this (or some variation) as a default opener.
On March 20 2011 21:56 Alpina wrote: Btw it looks like completely all in, I mean you have like 13-14 drones when doing this rush..
i must be doing it wrong then, because i have no problem squeezing in drones when 15 hatching.
ive also found that just sitting in the natural of someone who held me off will delay the terran long enough for me to pull ahead in workers and bases. im quite comfortable taking a third if i cant kill my opponent.
its pretty common to roll up the ramp and be greeted with a techlab researching stim and sniping it will result in minutes of tank repositioning required for terran to clear you out of his natural.
Michael, I love you for coming up with the idea for this build, but lets not get overboard here. It IS pretty close to an all-in. Yes, you can stop making roaches, and start droning, but you can also do that with a 6 pool, and thats still pretty all-in. Its not a "very economical opener that you can be extremely flexible with". Classic speedling expand would fit that description. This build doesnt. If anything, its a very strong agressive build, that has the option of falling back and catching back up in economy pretty fast and pretty safely should the attack fail. But since there is no way for you to be ahead in economy before the 7 minute mark, calling it "very economical" would just be wrong.
Its really good as is. No need to try and make it look better than it is with wrong statements
On March 20 2011 22:36 morimacil wrote: Michael, I love you for coming up with the idea for this build, but lets not get overboard here. It IS pretty close to an all-in. Yes, you can stop making roaches, and start droning, but you can also do that with a 6 pool, and thats still pretty all-in. Its not a "very economical opener that you can be extremely flexible with". Classic speedling expand would fit that description. This build doesnt. If anything, its a very strong agressive build, that has the option of falling back and catching back up in economy pretty fast and pretty safely should the attack fail. But since there is no way for you to be ahead in economy before the 7 minute mark, calling it "very economical" would just be wrong.
Its really good as is. No need to try and make it look better than it is with wrong statements
Mmm.... the reason I don't agree is because you don't even "commit" to this build until almost 4 minutes into the game. And unlike most "all-in" in the opening minutes, you don't have 2 bases already established.
You can very easily just make a couple lings, 3-4 roaches and from your scouting information, double queen + drone like a madman and be ahead or equal to anything your opponent could be doing economically.
You can abandon a 6pool too, but you don't have the ability to simultaneously make 2 queens and saturate two bases. I think if there's a weakness it's that this "transition" period can take upwards of 90 seconds if you mark from the start of queen production to the first inject pop (although you could have made 12 drones by that time)
If you end up skipping the queen, making the roach warren, and making roaches, then you are behind economically. It doesnt mean that you cant catch up, but you start off behind, and it would be strange to call it very economical when you start off behind. If you dont make the roach warren and roaches, and instead make queens and drones... Then its just a standard 14p 15h. The things that set this build appart, skipping the queen, and making the roaches, are also what sets it behind in economy compared to other builds.
I used this the other day in a 2v2 (ZZ vs TP) game and it seemed pretty good. The other zerg went mass slings on 1 base and it was a fast win.
You can get enough overlords to support the first batch of roaches, then when both hatches have 3 larva you can time it to get 6 roaches, and reinforce with 2 more roaches at a time as the larva spawns. I think you slowly run out of gas if still on 1 extractor but this is great as it forces you to drone up a little and afford 1 or 2 queens eventually.
Even though this is about ZT i think the 2 hatch roach could be good against protoss as well if you can contain them and put pressure on their ramp. I'll try to iron out a build that has mainly roaches at the start and then a delayed speedling push to deal with the stalkers, assuming the stalkers can be chased away to begin with using good OL scouting and roach numbers. Maybe something like roaches until 1 queen pops, all drones back on mins once metabolic is researching, and then when meta is done have the first larva injects worth of speedlings running in. The risks are base trading with void rays, constant FFs on the ramp while they get a bigger econ lead or them not building a wall at the ramp (haha).
The thing that detracts from this against terran is that if the warren is scouted they can counter so easily with bunkers and marauders, I don't believe the protoss would have an easy time even if they scout what you are doing.
My concern is the general lack of larva due to missing a few potential injects. Wouldn't that mean having a lesser economy or less military units overall? Generally the advantage of going queen-less is faster tech, not econ, since you can get a lair quicker.
I feel like you have enough larva for roaches and some spare for drones. This is early game pressure where you could nearly compare it to 2 hatches or 1 hatch and a queen. Spawn larva creates 4 Larva after a duration of 40 seconds. Hatchery at a rate of 1 larva every 15 seconds.
So really roughly you miss out on 1 larva every 40 seconds in exchange you get a less bumpy supply early game (roaches coming out like 2, 2, 2, 2, 2 instead of 1, 1, 5, 1, 1, 5).
Plus you have an expansion that changes how the opponent plays, and you can change course and macro hard with 2 queens if they give you long enough.
On March 22 2011 08:51 Whitewing wrote: My concern is the general lack of larva due to missing a few potential injects. Wouldn't that mean having a lesser economy or less military units overall? Generally the advantage of going queen-less is faster tech, not econ, since you can get a lair quicker.
There are a few major things to note:
With 14 drones (3 on gas) you can 2 naked hatches can support constant roach production + slightly extra. You won't larva cap until longafter you've transitioned to something else, but it feels pretty close to 100%, and it's very easy to maintain.
If you queen after FE, you NEVER inject first, ever. You always want to tumor first, and theo nly advantage of tumor is for the queens, which you don't have, or to defend, which you aren't doing.
Generally, you are correct, and that's why I think this build is unique in that regard.
On March 22 2011 10:18 aneruok wrote: this is really awesome. feels like a great defence against 4 gate as well.
awesome michael! and thanks July,
Edit: or would this be horrible for protoss?
I think it could be great against protoss, but you pretty much aren't going to win outright. You can very easily push a contain on 3-gate expand (and drain sentry FF while doing it), and I feel it is strong against 4gate, but not overly so, at least not without ling support, and you'd want to start queens and probably pump speedlings/a few drones once you suspect that 4gate is definitely coming.
been playing on KOR ladder today and every terran opens fast reaper all of a sudden. Just 1 reaper really fucks this build, because even when you deal with it, the transition is already there for heavy marauder. It hits at the perfect time where you've already partially committed and are behind no matter where you transition from, and you can force a normal game at best, but may well lose to 1-base stim counter aggression if you've made too many roaches.
what if he scouts and notices your hatch isnt wiggling??? seems like after a while, terran will start scouting better, looking for the wiggle on the hatch, and this build will become much less potent.
I am liking the defensive ability of this build in ZvZ too. if they don't go for super early lings you can get out enough roaches to defend whatever is incoming. There isn't a queen out for them to snipe early and the only thing they can get at are your drones which is where your roaches are spawning from.
On March 23 2011 12:55 BlazedHydra wrote: what if he scouts and notices your hatch isnt wiggling??? seems like after a while, terran will start scouting better, looking for the wiggle on the hatch, and this build will become much less potent.
This is definitely something that needs to be added to the list of scouting information obtained before the SCV leaves. While it could simply mean there is a delayed queen, it may well mean there is some funny stuff going on.
If this build becomes more popular, this will be the key to scouting and successfully defending this build (or just opening with a reaper, which seems to be the trend on KOR lately in my ZvT matches).
On March 31 2011 21:05 Antisocialmunky wrote: What if Terran 2Rax, gets contained and FE's inbase?
I think you come out worse since Terran can just saturate/mule his econ up on one base faster than you can with a delayed queen.
He is definitely behind if he tries for a one-base all-in. I would say that in most cases vs 2-rax FE, the terran is forced to lift or never put down his CC (depending on his timing) and just mule in-base. This is a win for me every time in that battle because he's mining out his main faster with no access to his nat. The added minerals can only be dumped into bio, and a lair / baneling nest is a sure counter to that.
He definitely can't out-macro a 2-base zerg, especially if you double queen when you push out rather than fully commit to the roach aggression.
On March 31 2011 15:22 zergrushkekeke wrote: I am liking the defensive ability of this build in ZvZ too. if they don't go for super early lings you can get out enough roaches to defend whatever is incoming. There isn't a queen out for them to snipe early and the only thing they can get at are your drones which is where your roaches are spawning from.
Would like to try and keep this discussion only to this specific ZvT build. But for more general applicability of no queen FE roach builds, please post anything you want to talk about in this discussion thread:
Personally I'd never pool past 14 on zvz, and almost never do anything other than 11pool, just because it's so much safer and there are so many 7pool all-ins and 15hatches that 11pool just build-counters.
Have been playing around with this both versus terran and zerg, and it seems to work great, especially against the former. It also makes for an interesting and intense zvz. I am on gold and platinum level though. But this is extremely fun to do!
This build is quite excellent! I have won many games thanks to it. I have actually used it a few times on protoss as well and it worked out.
However my friend found a way to counter me as terran. (note: he did not know i was using this build) This build relies heavily on the fact that your opponent does not find out about your roach warren, destroying the scouting SCV is not a problem. A major counter to this build is if a terran goes reaper scout first, this is rare but a problem for two reasons:
1. He will almost certainly scout out that you have a roach warren and or expo. 2. Since he scouted early he will already have a tech lab built given him plenty of time to get a marauder or two out before you can do decent rush damage. 3. He will also feel the need to get siege tanks earlier then usual.
On April 07 2011 07:29 BossKey wrote: This build is quite excellent! I have won many games thanks to it. I have actually used it a few times on protoss as well and it worked out.
However my friend found a way to counter me as terran. (note: he did not know i was using this build) This build relies heavily on the fact that your opponent does not find out about your roach warren, destroying the scouting SCV is not a problem. A major counter to this build is if a terran goes reaper scout first, this is rare but a problem for two reasons:
1. He will almost certainly scout out that you have a roach warren and or expo. 2. Since he scouted early he will already have a tech lab built given him plenty of time to get a marauder or two out before you can do decent rush damage. 3. He will also feel the need to get siege tanks earlier then usual.
Just be aware of this possibility.
I 100% agree with you. When I play terran, I almost always make an early reaper scout as soon as my tech lab is finished. Although most terran on SEA/NA don't seem to, almost every terran I've tried this against on KOR the pst week or two has opened with reaper scout, and I'd say it pretty much fucks this build completely.
Just the reaper by itself is going to cause a lot of damage if it's early enough since you have no queens, and your roaches won't be out that early.
That said, its exceedingly common to not do this, and when you scout that early tech lab you should opt to proceed as a normal 15p/g/16h game, allowing ling speed to finish, and pumping double queens.
If you don't, you'll end up seeing either marauder/hellion or reaper shenanigans that will mess you up pretty good.
I don't scout usually because I'm a very greedy player, and feel confident in my aggression that i'd rather have the extra 50-70 minerals, but it's admittedly a poor choice, and with this being more common, sending a 9 or 12- drone on these 4-player maps would be wise.
On April 07 2011 23:27 mizak wrote: If you still want replays heres a masters game of myself on ladder. I cleaned up a double rax with factory pumping rine hellion. http://topreplays.com/Replays/Details/5959/Mizak_vs_Max
Sorry I didn't check this until now, but added to OP, thanks!
also, added a video to the OP about production hatch vs empty hatch so Terrans can see just how close it really looks.
Unplayable on Shakuras... I did what you said and he had 2 bunker with 1 banshee and 1 tank some seconds later.... What should you do against a banshee opening??
On April 19 2011 20:35 raDon wrote: Unplayable on Shakuras... I did what you said and he had 2 bunker with 1 banshee and 1 tank some seconds later.... What should you do against a banshee opening??
I can see this build working for a short period of time. The reason is that when a terran scouts and sees the spawning pool finish, they will be watching your hatchery to see if a Queen is being made. If there is no Queen, they just bunker up ramp, make a couple marauder and go banshee or pump more marauders.
I'm not trying to say that someone has been doing it for a good while before you, but...
It's kind of ironic someone mention the NASL event where he did it against an opponent, but he's been doing that for a few weeks on his stream now. You CAN FE (timing is 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas), drone up to 18, have ovies to 34, and then save larvae on both hatch to 3. You can pop 6 roaches immediately... perfectly. The money lines up damn close.
On April 24 2011 13:55 Flanagan wrote: I'm not trying to say that someone has been doing it for a good while before you, but...
It's kind of ironic someone mention the NASL event where he did it against an opponent, but he's been doing that for a few weeks on his stream now. You CAN FE (timing is 15 hatch 15 pool 15 gas), drone up to 18, have ovies to 34, and then save larvae on both hatch to 3. You can pop 6 roaches immediately... perfectly. The money lines up damn close.
I posted a thread about no queen early game after messing with it for a few weeks, and then created this thread not long after.
Just as going mass queen has some great benefits, so does going no queen provide some great advantages in games as well.
The 15hatch version is (I want to say) about 80 seconds slower than this build if you plan to do any kind of aggression. But if you're defending and you scout properly, that can also be a solid build.
15hatch roach is different than this build though and is designed with a different purpose in my opinion.
Also, I haven't been able to see this catz game, but if he did what you describe, it doesn't surprise me that he'd lose to tanks. Going hatch first is a much slower means of doing this build, and is centered more on economy and defense than early pressure.
edit: Just watched EG Master's cup Strelock/slush set1, and + Show Spoiler +
it's a prime example of why hatch-first no queen roach is a terrible, terrible build. It's just too much slower, and doesn't exploit any window. It's also build-order countered by several terran openers, including the simple 1-1-1 that strelock did.