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[G] GrandMaster SC2 Lecture: Aggressive Zerg Play - Page 12

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Acidosis
Profile Joined April 2011
United States172 Posts
November 03 2011 02:41 GMT
#221
Thanks for the guide. This is incredibly helpful to me. I've recently changed my passive macro style to somewhat aggressive timing attack to force opponent to respond wrongly. Like vT, pushing with around 10 roach at 8 min mark (which is safe for me because I often lose to reactor hellions anyways) to force him to think I'm going mass roach which he could likely to respond with marauder. Then if the first timing doesnt out right kill or dmg him, I follow up with mass ling off three base, I only morph blings if I scout a standard mass marine/tank/medivac push, in which I go standard ling/bling/muta play. Another important aspect of this is that terran has scans which for whatever reason only scan in main base for tech or just outside natural where most zerg rallies his units. NO, I deny him information by placing my army in obscure places(able to defend drops of course.

Aggressive zerg can be quite powerful early and late game. Its the mid game that we are forced to be passive to get our economy up. Mid game timings are just not as powerful for zerg as it is for terran or protoss.
“The will to win is not nearly as important as the will to prepare to win.” -BK
Catgroove
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden67 Posts
November 03 2011 04:27 GMT
#222
Take a look at the HuK vs Aria game. That's how you play aggressively the right way. OP's methods are way to "cheesy" to be effective in my opinion.
Bad_Habit
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany243 Posts
November 03 2011 13:38 GMT
#223
everyone should watch habit games if they wont to play agressive zerg -_-
I only gg vs protoss when I'm winning
Threx
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany4 Posts
November 03 2011 19:44 GMT
#224
I don't understand why everyone is so mad at Tang. He is showing us how to punish players which is a good thing for lower league players to understand, even though if you cheese to punish.

I myself improved my play using this style.
So I thank you Tang for showing me a different side of Zerg.


sSoda
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States95 Posts
November 04 2011 00:22 GMT
#225
not gm anymore lol. "I will be gm season 4". Apparently not...
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 04 2011 01:42 GMT
#226
On November 04 2011 09:22 sSoda wrote:
not gm anymore lol. "I will be gm season 4". Apparently not...


Random reset, not my fault ^^ I beat sheth, been a good day.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Rivkeh
Profile Joined September 2010
United States58 Posts
November 04 2011 01:45 GMT
#227
I'd be really happy to see non-muta aggression become a tool in Z's toolbox making a scarier race and adding to the depth of play, way to be TangSC.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 04 2011 16:41 GMT
#228
On November 04 2011 10:45 Rivkeh wrote:
I'd be really happy to see non-muta aggression become a tool in Z's toolbox making a scarier race and adding to the depth of play, way to be TangSC.


Don't forget about muta aggression though! You can always transition from the roach/ling to 4gas 2base muta
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
RoyalFlush
Profile Joined July 2010
Canada109 Posts
November 04 2011 16:58 GMT
#229
On November 04 2011 10:42 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2011 09:22 sSoda wrote:
not gm anymore lol. "I will be gm season 4". Apparently not...


Random reset, not my fault ^^ I beat sheth, been a good day.


Random Reset? LOL
they just weeded out everyone who didnt deserve GM spots
beating a progamer once on ladder literally means nothing
You called down the thunder?
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
November 04 2011 22:43 GMT
#230
It puts a smile on my face when I beat someone famous, sue me!
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
Eschaton
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1245 Posts
November 05 2011 02:02 GMT
#231
Puts a frown on my face seeing this guy spamming pub channels for GM coaching while being in masters.
sanddbox_sc2
Profile Joined October 2011
United States173 Posts
November 05 2011 08:22 GMT
#232
Let me guess. You baneling allinned him?
michaelhasanalias
Profile Joined May 2010
Korea (South)1231 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-05 13:08:20
November 05 2011 13:06 GMT
#233
On November 03 2011 10:00 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2011 09:57 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
On November 03 2011 09:12 TangSC wrote:
On November 03 2011 09:04 sanddbox_sc2 wrote:
On November 03 2011 01:39 Shado. wrote:
I don't understand the resentment towards tang. Pro players do stupid risky shit all the time... while it may not be the "correct" play in every situation, you can't argue that an aggressive play style is wrong. If you don't like it, don't use it. Not everyone wants to enter a 20minute macro war.


Because he's marketing this is a guide to improve your play. It isn't. It's a guide on getting easy ladder wins vs players who make mistakes. At the same time, he uses false information (such as being in Grandmasters) to try to get people to purchase his coaching.

His style of play might be aggressive, but it's not the right kind of aggression. If CombatEx made a guide on cannon-rushing and advertised his placement in grandmasters league to try to get people to buy his coaching, they'd flame him out of here, but somehow Tang's cheese is unique and a new, unknown style of Zerg.

(It's also kind of funny how similar Tang and CombatEx are: they're both grandmasters or ex-grandmasters who are extremely bad mannered and get easy wins by abusing cheese and allins vs people on ladder. At least CombatEx's videos are somewhat decent...)

I'd say combatex and I are very different people, but I do appreciate his skill and his cheesy builds. If you get to a division, whether it's diamond or grand master, you deserve it. If you'd take the time to watch a decent amount of my games or of combatex's games, you'd see finesse in the mid-late game like any other GM player.


Really? I have 2 replays of me crushing CombatEx while he floated like a complete noob; and as to "deserving" it, it's trivial to get to grandmasters by marine scv allinning every game, but that doesn't necessarily mean you deserve it. That fact that you "appreciate his cheesy builds" is pretty reflective of your playstyle though.


I don't really take offense to that, if you could simply all-in your way to grand master without skill, like you're implying, everyone would do it. I appreciate builds that win games, be they long or short term. If you want to play SC2 well, you should be well-versed in cheesy/all-in builds, even the best of pros don't macro every single game. And honestly I think aggressive timing attacks are one of the best ways to practice fundamental mechanics.


People don't do that because it's a boring and shitty way to play this game. Only if you had some financial interest like scamming bad players out of some extra money or really put that much of a premium on the icon in your profile would you do this.

I got to high master by doing lame cheeses before I took the time to really try and improve. After 5-10 games of it it just wears on you doing the exact same build every game to every player. Ever since I stopped some months ago I've gotten much better at this game.

Unfortunately for me, all my old practice partners who just played standard and legit the entire time are competing at MLGs and trying to go pro, whereas I'm just another random mid master player (GM on SEA, but that's not a real server).

You could probably be a great player if you put the time you spend promoting yourself and cheesing into actually learning how to lay standard macro games. Instead, you continually try to forward this persona of "hey I'm the greatest and I cheese pros, pay me money and I'll reveal my secrets to you, a lowly silver player."

I can't wait to see you make it back to GM though, as I'm sure you will. Interspersed between two long streaks of cheesey all-ins will be 20-30 epic macro games of unquestionable skill. And I'm sure we won't get any replays of them.


Also don't send me 4 PMs me asking me to be nice to you when you shit on everything that this forum stands for in helping players improve by advocating your cheesy style and trying to pass it off as high level play. If you don't like being criticized for your actions, then change your actions.
KR NsPMichael.805 | AM Michael.2640 | SEA Michael.523 | 엔에스피 New Star Players
TumescentPie
Profile Joined November 2011
United States28 Posts
November 05 2011 20:05 GMT
#234
Perhaps edit the video so that the n-bomb wasn't dropped right off the bat - I was interested in this until that happened.
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-05 21:56:36
November 05 2011 21:29 GMT
#235
I didn't record or upload the video so I can't edit out the beginning - sorry.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
TangSC
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Canada1866 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-05 21:55:36
November 05 2011 21:52 GMT
#236
People don't do that because it's a boring and shitty way to play this game. Only if you had some financial interest like scamming bad players out of some extra money or really put that much of a premium on the icon in your profile would you do this.

I got to high master by doing lame cheeses before I took the time to really try and improve. After 5-10 games of it it just wears on you doing the exact same build every game to every player. Ever since I stopped some months ago I've gotten much better at this game.

Unfortunately for me, all my old practice partners who just played standard and legit the entire time are competing at MLGs and trying to go pro, whereas I'm just another random mid master player (GM on SEA, but that's not a real server).

You could probably be a great player if you put the time you spend promoting yourself and cheesing into actually learning how to lay standard macro games. Instead, you continually try to forward this persona of "hey I'm the greatest and I cheese pros, pay me money and I'll reveal my secrets to you, a lowly silver player."

I can't wait to see you make it back to GM though, as I'm sure you will. Interspersed between two long streaks of cheesey all-ins will be 20-30 epic macro games of unquestionable skill. And I'm sure we won't get any replays of them.


Also don't send me 4 PMs me asking me to be nice to you when you shit on everything that this forum stands for in helping players improve by advocating your cheesy style and trying to pass it off as high level play. If you don't like being criticized for your actions, then change your actions.

I've received an incredibly positive response from the majority of the SC2 community and I know my efforts to help people improve will not be appreciated by everyone, but that's perfectly fine. I love what I do and I thoroughly enjoy my play style so comments like yours truly don't phase me. If you took the time to constructively contribute and help improve the quality of my guides and posts, I'd happily consider your suggestions. Your criticism, however, is filled with spite and does not help anyone. I wish you'd put your time into helping out the community by doing a lecture or writing TL threads rather than spreading such negativity.
Coaching www.allin-academy.com | Team www.All-Inspiration.com
sanddbox_sc2
Profile Joined October 2011
United States173 Posts
November 06 2011 00:58 GMT
#237
On November 06 2011 06:52 TangSC wrote:
Show nested quote +
People don't do that because it's a boring and shitty way to play this game. Only if you had some financial interest like scamming bad players out of some extra money or really put that much of a premium on the icon in your profile would you do this.

I got to high master by doing lame cheeses before I took the time to really try and improve. After 5-10 games of it it just wears on you doing the exact same build every game to every player. Ever since I stopped some months ago I've gotten much better at this game.

Unfortunately for me, all my old practice partners who just played standard and legit the entire time are competing at MLGs and trying to go pro, whereas I'm just another random mid master player (GM on SEA, but that's not a real server).

You could probably be a great player if you put the time you spend promoting yourself and cheesing into actually learning how to lay standard macro games. Instead, you continually try to forward this persona of "hey I'm the greatest and I cheese pros, pay me money and I'll reveal my secrets to you, a lowly silver player."

I can't wait to see you make it back to GM though, as I'm sure you will. Interspersed between two long streaks of cheesey all-ins will be 20-30 epic macro games of unquestionable skill. And I'm sure we won't get any replays of them.


Also don't send me 4 PMs me asking me to be nice to you when you shit on everything that this forum stands for in helping players improve by advocating your cheesy style and trying to pass it off as high level play. If you don't like being criticized for your actions, then change your actions.

I've received an incredibly positive response from the majority of the SC2 community and I know my efforts to help people improve will not be appreciated by everyone, but that's perfectly fine. I love what I do and I thoroughly enjoy my play style so comments like yours truly don't phase me. If you took the time to constructively contribute and help improve the quality of my guides and posts, I'd happily consider your suggestions. Your criticism, however, is filled with spite and does not help anyone. I wish you'd put your time into helping out the community by doing a lecture or writing TL threads rather than spreading such negativity.
Show nested quote +


You're delusional. The only positive response is from noobs that find that allins increase their winrate (no way!) and from your delusional ego congratulating yourself for swindling dozens of bad players.

None of your play is without risk, and none of it shows skill. You execute various highly-effective allins because ladder is a best of one format. It's very easy to lose to someone who 6 pools every game, but very hard to lose a best of five against them once you figure out how unskilled of a player they are.

You're no different. If you want to show your skill, play a showmatch versus someone, instead of making pretty-looking but otherwise useless guides to try to promote your website/stream/coaching. You haven't even attempted to strategically defend any aspect of your play, you've simply been saying "lots of people who are bad at this game find me helpful and why are you meanies still picking on me?". You have no intellectual honesty; you're here to profit, or at the very least to stroke your own ego.
Marokeas
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada13 Posts
November 06 2011 04:56 GMT
#238
Why are so many people getting so mad at Tang?
Tang has produced multiple productive threads for the community.
Examples include:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252865
and
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=244816

Both of these posts go in depth on the teaching part of SC2.

The post on a positive mindset has barely anything to do with starcraft but it's a great post for any one who wants to learn how to play the game nonetheless.
The post on an effective opening build describes what I believe is a popular (used to be popular?) opening for zerg. In the end, the whole post has very little to do with the build itself and highlights the thinking required for learning any new build.

I'm only a gold player, so I can't comment on Tang's play, except by saying that he's better than I am.

I can comment, just from looking at both of these posts, that he's a good teacher. I can tell from both of these posts that he knows how to explain things in a way that allows someone to walk away having learned something they can apply later. Both of these posts, after I read them, made me a better player.
This lecture is the same way.

For some reason, Tang is getting hell from some self appointed people who believe he's doing something wrong by adding onto his posts links to more of him.
He streams and he's just letting you know.
He coaches and he's just letting you know.
After putting in the effort and time to make posts like these, it's fair to give him a few lines to promote even more things he does for the community.

One last thing as well. I got some coaching from Tang. It was very informative in that it taught me about starcraft 2 and, more importantly, it gave me tools that I could use to practice better than I could before.
In life, unlike in chess, the game continues after checkmate.
Inters
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada29 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-11-06 07:52:34
November 06 2011 07:50 GMT
#239
Not sure why Tang is getting so much rap for teaching aggressive/cheesy play?

First off, cheese is the best way to learn. I flogged around for a bit in bronze league when I first started playing, then I discoved that you could actually just build a spawning pool at 6 supply. Once that got accomplished, I used that as a stepping stone to gold league by learning how to multitask/macro by building only 6 lings at the start and trying to keep them alive as long as possible. I went from bronze scrub to diamond scrub in 100 games. Obviously not record breaking, but something to consider.
Why would anyone below plat, or hell even diamond, even attempt to do complicated stuff when they can't do simple stuff like cheese? You have to start with the easy stuff or you're NEVER going to learn the hard stuff.

Oh, and EVERY progamer knows some cheese of some sort. Even IdrA. Cheese is part of the game, deal with it. If you refuse to ever cheese, you're worse off than the people who do cheese every game.
So unless you see July posting in the threads about how to do aggressive play, I'd suggest everyone stfu and give this guy a chance.
snexwang
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia224 Posts
November 06 2011 11:01 GMT
#240
cheese is the best way to learn
That's a good one.
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