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On November 10 2011 22:39 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies). You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency.
The difference is that zealots survive longer than zerglings and are likely to hit a target, while most zerglings won't ever get a hit off in their full lifetime against a tank/marine army.
If I get the upgrade in a nonzergling/upgrade focused build, how many lings do I usually have? 40? 60? (I honestly don't know exactly, but given the fact that I'm having 70supply in drones, 40+supply in mutalisks, 10 supply in queens and ~the same amount of banelings as zerglings, it shouldn't be much more than 30supply zerglings, as I still want to be able to have broodlords or ultras when I'm going for Hive) Even if it's 80 zerglings, once I'm attacking a Tank/Marine army with them, 50+ will be dead before hitting anything. So I upgraded units that are worth ~500+ minerals with a 200/200 upgrade. Let's assume that those 30lings all get an extra hit through the upgrade before the die (which is unlikely) and they are on even upgrades with their targets (which is unlikely, as I'm not playing an upgrade style): I got 150 extra damage through AG...
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On November 11 2011 00:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:39 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies). You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency. The difference is that zealots survive longer than zerglings and are likely to hit a target, while most zerglings won't ever get a hit off in their full lifetime against a tank/marine army.
That's a very good point. Most of the zerglings in late game never even reach their target, that's why adrenal is not that efficient.
But overall i think getting adrenal is really good even if you go muta/ling/bling. Zerg usually dumps most of their extra minerals into zerglings anyway so why not have upgrade for them?
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On November 11 2011 00:10 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:05 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 22:39 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies). You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency. The difference is that zealots survive longer than zerglings and are likely to hit a target, while most zerglings won't ever get a hit off in their full lifetime against a tank/marine army. That's a very good point. Most of the zerglings in late game never even reach their target, that's why adrenal is not that efficient. But overall i think getting adrenal is really good even if you go muta/ling/bling. Zerg usually dumps most of their extra minerals into zerglings anyway so why not have upgrade for them?
Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should get it at a certain point of the game (if the game reaches that point), because there still might come phases in which you just want to be able to spawn more stuff towards your opponent, and which unit is better for this than an highspeed, short buildtime, cheap unit? I just don't think that it is really essential in a standing composition that contains if you're fighting marines or splash units, while the difference between 5 broodlords and 8 broodlords is huge and simply can make the difference between winning or losing . (which is the difference between AD and 3/3, which are probably not usefull for the next engagement).
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On November 10 2011 23:35 Belial88 wrote:
Right, I get that 1 less broodlord is okay. But adrenal glands are worthless because lings are useless due to AoE. I don't care if lings do 20 dps with adrenal glands, storm, 4+ colossi, and siege tanks become fielded in extreme late game that just rape any number of lings in one shot. They are too frail.
It's the same reason you don't see blue flame hellions used against mass zealot in lategame TvP. They are just too frail, even though it nearly doubles the damage. Blue flame is a lot more 'dramatic' than adrenal glands, but at the extreme lategame, hellions, just like lings, just die too damn quickly.
You really shouldn't be getting hive until you are about 5+ bases, so the time it would make a difference is better served getting other things instead. When terran is still on tank/rine/medivac and doesn't have ghosts yet and is only on 3 bases, and I still have 20+ mutas, I'd rather spend the gas on an infestor and then run in with mass ling/bane/muta.
But extreme late game, when you get hive - I am not making lings anymore, because they aren't really useful anymore. You don't use zerglings in extreme lategame against Terran, you go for ultralisks, and you turn all lings into banes, if you even have any. Against protoss you make roaches or ultras or broodlords, a single storm or 4+ colossi just makes all zerglings useless.
How about reaper speed. It makes reapers soo much faster! Oh, because in lategame, they just die too fast to be useful and you are moving on to bigger and better tech. I'm sure Terran would rather have an extra ghost than blue flame on all his hellions.
Great now you got ultras, but now eventually they've got a ridiculous number of ghosts with which to destroy ultras and broodlords if they are controlled well. Tanks are in position to blow up banes, which are even more fragile than lings. So now is a great time to do a quick ling switch, with literally over a hundred lings at times. Probably would be nice to have adrenal as opposed to 1 extra infestor.
Also the point of this thread isn't why zergs don't go adrenal in every game. He was specifically pointing out particular games where the zerg might be on ultraling or whatever with a not insignificant number of lings, often to the point where a lot of them will get quite a few hits off. Not to mention they are useful for backstabbing planetaries and expansions in general.
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top players stick with the 'trends' usually... use what's tried and tested, if it works then you don't need to switch it up.
i feel the same way about reapers... upgraded reapers are godlike in lategame with the more 'spread' expos and slower logistics. but noone seems to use lategame reapers, not even if their opponent is overwhelming them with zealot/marine/ling pressure.
oh no mutas stopped your medivac drops? errr upgraded reapers move faster than mutas.
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It's a very unobtrusive upgrade, meaning that it's very easy to overlook. You only ever click on your spawning pool when you get ling speed, and since the upgrade is hive tech, you don't get it all that often.
I think it's definitely worth getting, but it's just easy to forget about. Also, day[9] makes such a huge deal about it since it was a much bigger deal in BW.
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cracklings aren't what they used to be : (
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I think one of the big reasons that pros neglect this upgrade is because they never get to a point where they feel they are using enough lings in their main army to warrant it. I mean, it's a great upgrade, and I agree that everyone should take it when they get a chance, but if lings aren't in your comp for anything but run-by's and drop prevention, then you could get mad upgrades other places before investing in the crack upgrade.
Who knows, though? I think it's just something that hasn't caught on in the metagame, and if lings are used more late game in the coming months, I think we will see more pros getting this upgrade. The pros in Zerg have been improving by leaps and bounds lately, and I think this is one more step they can take to continue that trend. Top Zergs get it often (Nestea, Leenock) the rest will follow suit.
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Wow OP that is interesting math, never thought of it that way o.o I always liked to get it cus it just seems like such a cool upgrade but never really thought about whether or not it was "practical" xD
On November 11 2011 00:55 ishboh wrote:
cracklings aren't what they used to be : (
Well the adrenal glands upgrade attack boost is much much less than it was in BW, but I think that's because, coupled with the zerglings' improved AI in SC2, it would be too strong of an upgrade.
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On October 22 2011 13:38 KimJongChill wrote:
It's crazy how good adrenal is haha, such a simple thing! Maybe there should be like adrenal rush builds.
If I'm ahead ZvT I'll start my Hive as early as 12:00 just to get +3 and Adrenal.
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On November 11 2011 00:55 ishboh wrote:
cracklings aren't what they used to be : (
Yeah that's another thing. I think that many pros have strayed away from Adrenal Glands because it isn't NEARLY as good as it was in BW. In BW, AG was a vital upgrade. Now, it is very possible to win with other tech because people are straying away from heavy Zerglings in the time where they have a Hive. If you can go upgrades for Brood Lords or Ultras rather than AG, that is typically what you will do.
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~8 hatch ling bane with full upgrades + a few infestors can beat any terran comp, tech farther and die to ghosts then complain about imbalance... Same comp but with 2-4 ultras beats any protoss comp. Also, zergs are the slowest teching highest econ race in the game, that needs to change, they need hive way faster, and it really bugs me when they neglect it, and then waste 4k/3k on a bunch of broods late game and then complain that the game is broken. No you are just retarded, no army except mass thor works well when entirely based around super SUPPORT units.
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On November 11 2011 03:22 Zirith wrote:
~8 hatch ling bane with full upgrades + a few infestors can beat any terran comp, tech farther and die to ghosts then complain about imbalance... Same comp but with 2-4 ultras beats any protoss comp. Also, zergs are the slowest teching highest econ race in the game, that needs to change, they need hive way faster, and it really bugs me when they neglect it, and then waste 4k/3k on a bunch of broods late game and then complain that the game is broken. No you are just retarded, no army except mass thor works well when entirely based around super SUPPORT units.
And who makes you decide what a support unit is what not?
Mass broodlord works, mass thor works, mass tank works, mass void ray works, mass archon works... That's all higher tech units, and has nothing to do with their role in the army, which varies in different compositions and in different unit counts.
(best example--> marine/tank turns into tank/marine in the lategame)
Also... Tell Mass Orbital 50scv macro terrans like MVP that they must not have a higher income than their zerg counterparts, and that they should tech faster to ghosts, even though there is no reason for it...
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I wish I could have Adrenal Crystals for my Zealots... it would make Warp Prism harass a lot more entertaining.
More on-topic, I think it's the same reason that a lot of pros will forget to get Concussive Shells from time to time. They've trained themselves so well to focus on things like building workers that things that more casual players like myself would consider mindless fall by the wayside. Oh well, they're the best players in the world. I'm hardly in a position to criticize them for those slip-ups. When some of them start to get the more general things down as well, I'm sure we'll see a whole new level of professional play.
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Personal experience is that this upgrade is a huge buff to my lings, especially since I favor ling heavy builds. Lings are the marines of Zerg (except they don't shoot up lulz), but they are always stimmed once you research the upgrade  .
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United States7166 Posts
i want to shoot anyone who calls lings with adrenal in sc2 "cracklings" because that name only belongs to the bw cracklings, which actually attack insanely fast with adrenal... hence the name. the adrenal upgrade is not only a smaller increase, but the base attack speed is significantly lower in sc2... really sc2 adrenalings seems about equivalent to normal zerglings in BW.
in a more serious note, when going for ling-builds and can afford it I'll always get it. the order of precedence is melee upgrades up to and including lvl 2, then adrenal, then level 3. i heard a while back that +2 attack is more cost effective than adrenal, which is more cost effective than +3. it does feel about equivalent to one extra attack upgrade, as others have said
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Adrenal Glands is great, but even with 3/3, it is hard to engage against splash units. It's still definitely worth the money, but generally people don't even care about zerglings at that point in the game in any matchup.
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On November 11 2011 07:22 Zelniq wrote:
i want to shoot anyone who calls lings with adrenal in sc2 "cracklings" because that name only belongs to the bw cracklings, which actually attack insanely fast with adrenal... hence the name. the adrenal upgrade is not only a smaller increase, but the base attack speed is significantly lower in sc2... really sc2 adrenalings seems about equivalent to normal zerglings in BW.
in a more serious note, when going for ling-builds and can afford it I'll always get it. the order of precedence is melee upgrades up to and including lvl 2, then adrenal, then level 3. i heard a while back that +2 attack is more cost effective than adrenal, which is more cost effective than +3. it does feel about equivalent to one extra attack upgrade, as others have said
I apologize, my good sir. I believe you want to shoot me now.
Adrenalings. That is their new name. 
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EPT
