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So I see Day9 continually harp on top Zergs neglecting the Adrenal Gland upgrade in ZvT.
While I initially disliked this due to the underwhelming nature of the upgrade, I eventually have to start siding with him. That upgrade makes all the difference.
Let's talk numbers.
Assuming 3/3 on both sides:
A fully-upgraded Marine has 45hp after stim and can be healed to a maximum of 55.
A medivac heals at 9hp/sec.
A zergling with no adrenal gland deals 7.2 DPS, leaving the target marine with a net gain of 1.8 heals while pumping out their insane damage.
An Adrenal Gland Zergling deals 8.5 DPS, reducing that same assumed net gain of HPs down to 0.5 A 72% increase in effective DPS of 1 zergling vs 1 healed marine!
2 Zerglings dead 5.4 net DPS to a marine, but 2 Adrenal Lings deal 8 net DPS a 48% increase in effective DPS!
In short. Due to the existence of Medivacs in ZvT, Adrenal Glands is probably the best use of 200/200 in the late game.
Why are pros refusing to research this upgrade?
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I sometimes wonder what would happen if you broodlings got crack upgrade. It would make the brood lord the worse mother ever as it would be throwing her crack addicted baby suicide bombers.
I think people just forget it since it is quite useful but its not necessary since you aren't relying on zerglings to deal damage, only pin. Now if zerg doom dropped it would be different but since they focus on making a death ball, its not strickly the best thing ever.
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It's basically a +4 attack that is cheaper, researches faster, and can be researched at the same time as +3. It really does make a big difference in ling dps, and lets them trade pretty well with marines.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
It is the most important upgrade for zvt lategame... i wrote this sig like a week ago because it seems like everyone is unaware how amazing this upgrade is because the "20% dps increase" is far more due to interaction with healing.
Get the word out 
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It's crazy how good adrenal is haha, such a simple thing! Maybe there should be like adrenal rush builds.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On October 22 2011 13:38 KimJongChill wrote:
It's crazy how good adrenal is haha, such a simple thing! Maybe there should be like adrenal rush builds.
Yes.
Upgrades increase ling damage by soooooo much...
13.6dps instead of 7.2 with 3 attack and adrenal.
Medivacs heal at 9hp/sec.
The interaction between dps and healing is really really important for combatting any number of forces with medivacs using lings, and in general rushed 3/3 lings with adrenal would clean up anything on the ground... massive numbers of siege tanks and hellions would deal with them, but marines? Drops in general? Completely worthless.
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And don't forget.... No gas. And those dps numbers are for EACH ZERGLING.
People assume hydras are the dps dealers.
Think of 4 lings vs 1 hydra. Lings get more dps. By far with this upgrade.
Problem though... 3/3/3 zlots, forcefields, tanks, colossus.......
wait... so basically protoss.... stupid op protoss, lol
But I agree, after watching Idra not use it in his matches, I will always remember to vs terran.
I never seem to get that far though...
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On October 22 2011 13:50 Blu3 wrote:
And don't forget.... No gas. And those dps numbers are for EACH ZERGLING.
People assume hydras are the dps dealers.
Think of 4 lings vs 1 hydra. Lings get more dps. By far with this upgrade.
Problem though... 3/3/3 zlots, forcefields, tanks, colossus.......
wait... so basically protoss.... stupid op protoss, lol
But I agree, after watching Idra not use it in his matches, I will always remember to vs terran.
I never seem to get that far though...
3/3 lings with adrenal beat 3/3/3 charge zealots in any choke, and annihilate them with a surround.
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adrenal glands is such an amazing upgrade. anyone going melee and not getting this upgrade late game is foolish.
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On October 22 2011 14:00 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 13:50 Blu3 wrote:
And don't forget.... No gas. And those dps numbers are for EACH ZERGLING.
People assume hydras are the dps dealers.
Think of 4 lings vs 1 hydra. Lings get more dps. By far with this upgrade.
Problem though... 3/3/3 zlots, forcefields, tanks, colossus.......
wait... so basically protoss.... stupid op protoss, lol
But I agree, after watching Idra not use it in his matches, I will always remember to vs terran.
I never seem to get that far though... 3/3 lings with adrenal beat 3/3/3 charge zealots in any choke, and annihilate them with a surround.
actually in a unit tester i found just now that 1 zel will defeat 4 lings (both sides fully upgraded) where only 2 lings can attack at a time. they do well with a surround but not annihilation by any means..16 lings fully surround 4 zealots for the entire duration of the fight and theres 7 lings left at the end.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On October 22 2011 14:31 orbit2021 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 14:00 Cyro wrote:On October 22 2011 13:50 Blu3 wrote:
And don't forget.... No gas. And those dps numbers are for EACH ZERGLING.
People assume hydras are the dps dealers.
Think of 4 lings vs 1 hydra. Lings get more dps. By far with this upgrade.
Problem though... 3/3/3 zlots, forcefields, tanks, colossus.......
wait... so basically protoss.... stupid op protoss, lol
But I agree, after watching Idra not use it in his matches, I will always remember to vs terran.
I never seem to get that far though... 3/3 lings with adrenal beat 3/3/3 charge zealots in any choke, and annihilate them with a surround. actually in a unit tester i found just now that 1 zel will defeat 4 lings (both sides fully upgraded) where only 2 lings can attack at a time. they do well with a surround but not annihilation by any means..16 lings fully surround 4 zealots for the entire duration of the fight and theres 7 lings left at the end.
supply cap vs supply cap wins in a straight wall fight without a surround
Edit: I was wrong, 3/3/3 zeals do infact beat lings in a choke.
Without the shield upgrades however, 3/3 adrenal gland lings WILL win WITHOUT a surround
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I always get the glands when I get my +3 +3. I'm usually at 3-4-5 bases by then so it seems pretty stupid not to spend 200/200 to improve my mineral dump. Especially since you're often pretty close to supply max and have high income at that time. Also I tend to forget ol speed and burrow so I have already saved that money ;-)
The few lings that actually connect with the stimmed marines have to deal some dps while they evaporate...
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Yeah, I consider it like a "melee upgrade level 4" for zerglings. If you can afford to get it, and you're going to use zerglings, then you ought to get it. It's usually as simple as that.
Sometimes, you can't afford to get it. What I saw again and again during the last MLG cast was IdrA with 70 gas, having just remaxed mostly on non-zergling units, and Day9 or somebody would say "jeez why isn't he getting adrenal glands?" It's a good upgrade but it's not a staple, and 200 gas isn't cheap if you're down to the wire fighting someone like Bomber who never runs out of units.
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It is easily worth the like 200-200.. I really don't know why people don't always get it.
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I don't think they refuse to get it. I think that they just forget a lot. When you get your hive, there is a lot of gas you have to allocate (+3 upgrades, greater spire or ultra cavern, etc) and I think the adrenal glands often just slips their mind.
It's a good upgrade, and at that point in the game you're often floating 500 - 1000 resources, so it really should always be researched.
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Expensive but worth it.... Generally if zerg can get Glands they probably have broodlords where glands are irrelevent...
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Even though the glands make your zerglings better, I still fail to for see a late game situation which requires lings. Planetaries with building armor still don't die to lings and you aren't touching that Terran ball without Hive tech units, in which case lings are pure fodder.
Lings just don't get close enough to the opponent unless the game has turned into a scrappy bio vs ling infestor, with Terran furiously trying to kill expos (like Idra Bomber shak and Idra Puma taldarim)
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There are arguments for how quickly lings die vs deathballs and such by that stage of the game, but honestly I think people just forget about it lol. No doubt it's a really good upgrade.
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Gas, gas gas gas and more gas.
Sometimes, its all the pros think about at that high level and that is why you see later upgrades, banes only when they have to and so on so forth. Ever wondered why baneling speed is left by some pros? Some say they forgot it, but in reality they needed all that gas into units. Its like saying, why dont pros get +3 muta attack, it increases their effic............... it does! yes, but the gas is too critical that the pros just cant spend it at that point in time, even for a critical upgrade like adrenal glands. In most situations, 2 more broods would be much more beneficial
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On October 22 2011 16:58 firehand101 wrote:
Gas, gas gas gas and more gas.
Sometimes, its all the pros think about at that high level and that is why you see later upgrades, banes only when they have to and so on so forth. Ever wondered why baneling speed is left by some pros? Some say they forgot it, but in reality they needed all that gas into units. Its like saying, why dont pros get +3 muta attack, it increases their effic............... it does! yes, but the gas is too critical that the pros just cant spend it at that point in time, even for a critical upgrade like adrenal glands. In most situations, 2 more broods would be much more beneficial
We see pro's almost everyday fighting with 100+ lings without adrenal when hive was done 10 minutes ago and they are floating 5k/3k etc
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I do upgrade it when I got the money, but 200 200 is quite an investment if you haven't had a huge economy lead all game long. But yea, it's definitely underused (probably because it was much better in bw).
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Going back to Day9, he certainly does overrate it. By listening to him during the Select Dimaga game, it sounded by his voice tone that Dimaga would have crushed had he got the upgrade, which is simply not true.
I think he's still living the days where 12 lings + 1 darkswarm could take out a cannon defended Protoss expo in seconds.
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On October 22 2011 17:05 decaf wrote:
I do upgrade it when I got the money, but 200 200 is quite an investment if you haven't had a huge economy lead all game long. But yea, it's definitely underused (probably because it was much better in bw).
200/200 is NOT an investment in lategame play, pretty much the end.
I play protoss, but jesus, that is 2 sentries and a zealot, i have to replace that crap all the time, surely you can spend TWO HUNDRED GAS when you are sat on 70-80 drones and pumping out lings as your core army?
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United Kingdom20294 Posts
On October 22 2011 17:09 Micket wrote:
Going back to Day9, he certainly does overrate it. By listening to him during the Select Dimaga game, it sounded by his voice tone that Dimaga would have crushed had he got the upgrade, which is simply not true.
I think he's still living the days where 12 lings + 1 darkswarm could take out a cannon defended Protoss expo in seconds.
Select had 10-12 medivacs that he kept alive the whole game, i think Adrenal would have atleast doubled the cost efficiency of Dimaga's engagements.
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There is no reason in the end-game to NOT get Adrenal Glands as the 200/200 investment is so so small and the Zerg player has already the tech in place for the upgrade.
The only thing that hurt my eyes during the games of Idra vs Bomber in MLG is Idra not getting Adrenal Glands while sitting on so much income.
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On October 22 2011 16:32 Micket wrote:
Planetaries with building armor still don't die to lings
I do believe 6 fully upgrades lings with glands take out a planetary fortress.
I do not 100% remember but I believe it was so, no repair that is.
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On October 22 2011 13:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
(...)
Why are pros refusing to research this upgrade?
Imo they simply forget that its there.
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On October 22 2011 22:53 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
There is no reason in the end-game to NOT get Adrenal Glands as the 200/200 investment is so so small and the Zerg player has already the tech in place for the upgrade.
The only thing that hurt my eyes during the games of Idra vs Bomber in MLG is Idra not getting Adrenal Glands while sitting on so much income.
He probably forgot considering there was so much going on in that game. I'm actually proud of him in that game considering there were so many wrong things he could've done that would put him on tilt but he held on strong through the series
Most of the time I just forget to get adrenal considering late game zerg is mostly remaxing and trying to not die
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I do believe 6 fully upgrades lings with glands take out a planetary fortress.
I do not 100% remember but I believe it was so, no repair that is.
....
With 6 fully upgraded lings attacking simultaneously from different directions the PF goes from 1500 to ~1300.
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It's good, but not the same way as it was in bw. Also later in the game your lings arent hitting 100% either, so compairing marines to zerglings to prove it doesn't really count (micro and such). It's a well spend 200/200, but it is not as awesome as day9 and some others claim it to be. Most pro's probably just forget it like mentioned earlier. You are spending your gas on upgrades / tech when you just hit hive, and DURING THAT MOMENT don't have the 200 gas. Once you do have it you are spending it on tech units again, and after that you have to understand that some people forget it.
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most pros dont get it in their tvz matchup because they're spending their gas elsewhere. infestor broodlord blings are all much better uses of gas than this upgrade.
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On October 22 2011 14:39 yeastiality wrote:
Sometimes, you can't afford to get it. What I saw again and again during the last MLG cast was IdrA with 70 gas, having just remaxed mostly on non-zergling units, and Day9 or somebody would say "jeez why isn't he getting adrenal glands?" It's a good upgrade but it's not a staple, and 200 gas isn't cheap if you're down to the wire fighting someone like Bomber who never runs out of units.
Exactly. IdrA needed the gas for other tech units at the moment. I think if the game is passive and the player Zerg knows it will go on for a bit, they will get the upgrade. However if any engagement in the near future could decide the game, they pour everything into that engagement.
That or IdrA simply forgot.
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It is a very nice upgrade to get, but sometimes the gas is more important for other units. It is definitely underused atm, but we did see biGz putting a lot of value into it.
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On October 22 2011 16:32 Micket wrote:Planetaries with building armor still don't die to lings and you aren't touching that Terran ball without Hive tech units, in which case lings are pure fodder.
No, really? Why would you try to take out a planetary fortress with Zerglings?
You wouldn't try to storm Fort Knox with tommy guns and spiffy suits, even if the guns fired twice as fast as regular tommy guns.
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Like somebody said earlier, a big upside of adrenal glands is that you can research it at the same time as +3 melee (or +2 melee for that matter). The same is true of chitinous plating and carapace.
One thing I've see July do (and I've done it myself at my horrible diamond level) is getting +2 melee, +2 armor, ultralisk armor and adrenal glands all at once when your economy blows up on a fast hive with a melee-based army. For me, it sorta makes intuitive sense - ultras benefit more from a large boost in armor (since tanks and things still kill +2 carapace lings as if they're +1 lings, and ultras have loads of health to 'make use of' armor) but lings benefit from quickly raising their DPS (like someone mentioned, it makes healed marines less difficult to take on).
Once your lings and ultras reach the fight, you want the ultras to have armor and the lings to do lots of damage and cycle between targets quickly. Both upgrades are geared toward that.
With someone like IdrA who has a very rigid (and excellent) ZvT style, you won't see this as much because he's constantly producing mutalisks and demolishing stuff with them. Not only are the upgrades less valuable to someone whose ground army is smaller, but it's much harder to afford them. In the IdrA vs Bomber series, I really don't remember any times that he was floating lots of gas and didn't start the upgrade...but if it happened, it's probably because he was flustered with how intense that game was.
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On October 22 2011 17:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 16:58 firehand101 wrote:
Gas, gas gas gas and more gas.
Sometimes, its all the pros think about at that high level and that is why you see later upgrades, banes only when they have to and so on so forth. Ever wondered why baneling speed is left by some pros? Some say they forgot it, but in reality they needed all that gas into units. Its like saying, why dont pros get +3 muta attack, it increases their effic............... it does! yes, but the gas is too critical that the pros just cant spend it at that point in time, even for a critical upgrade like adrenal glands. In most situations, 2 more broods would be much more beneficial We see pro's almost everyday fighting with 100+ lings without adrenal when hive was done 10 minutes ago and they are floating 5k/3k etc
When and if you are floating 3000 gas then sure why not, but most times people dont have that much
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For what it's worth Sen remembered (or even prioritized) adrenal glands today against select.
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its a great upgrade as proven in the OP, but day9 repeatedly harping on top pro players not researching it the fucking second hive finishes is extremely annoying. it costs 200 gas in a time that zerg needs all the gas they can get and has a fairly long build time. im sure there has been an instance or two where a top zerg has forgot it, but its extremely annoying listening to a b-level caster repeatedly criticizing pro players and saying they are making a "massive blunder" by trying to squeeze out as many tech units as possible with their gas.
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On October 22 2011 13:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
So I see Day9 continually harp on top Zergs neglecting the Adrenal Gland upgrade in ZvT.
While I initially disliked this due to the underwhelming nature of the upgrade, I eventually have to start siding with him. That upgrade makes all the difference.
Let's talk numbers.
Assuming 3/3 on both sides:
A fully-upgraded Marine has 45hp after stim and can be healed to a maximum of 55.
A medivac heals at 9hp/sec.
A zergling with no adrenal gland deals 7.2 DPS, leaving the target marine with a net gain of 1.8 heals while pumping out their insane damage.
An Adrenal Gland Zergling deals 8.5 DPS, reducing that same assumed net gain of HPs down to 0.5 A 72% increase in effective DPS of 1 zergling vs 1 healed marine!
Isn't this math misleading? You can't really use the "net dps" to show gains in dps in general especially by percentages, because at certain numbers it will look way more powerful than it is. Say we're in a universe where a zergling without adrenal does the same dps as a medivac heals, and then adrenal glands adds .01 dps to the zergling. We'd then according to this kind of analysis or whatever say that adrenal glands adds infinity percent effective dps to the zergling when attacking a healed marine.
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its a 20 % increase in dps, as the tooltip says, i dont know why your math says something about 72% ... also why is the healing important for the zergling dps?
if the target has 1000 hp or 500hp/s healing, its still just 20% increase in zergling dps..
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If I have extra min/gas I get adrenal glands, otherwise I don't in ZvT (in ZvZ and ZvP I always get it at Hive tech).
Consider the fact that lings die so quickly, it's rare for a ling to get more than one shot off, two at most. They're not the real damage dealers of your army late game, that's what the infestors/broodlords are for.
If I'm going ling/ultra/infestor composition it's a must though, because in that case the ultras are tanking while the lings provide the dps.
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Wow I never knew that having adrenal glands makes that much of a difference. A lot of the time I forget to upgrade it, but I'm going to try and remember to now.
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I guess its b/c its so simple to only think tier 3 units and such things when you finally reach that stage of the game... But clearly zergs should be getting it!
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There's nothing absolutely nor empirically superior about it; if one should find inspiration in this upgrade then perhaps it could be a means for the build someone has in mind to come together.
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There's a reason they're called "cracklings". 
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They're amazing for stopping drops and they absolutely wreck buildings.
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That upgrade is awesome if you are not playing with Broodlords.
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Is adrenal glands better than getting +3 attack?
To my un-Zergy eyes, it would seem that not getting adrenal glands would be like not getting stim for marines.
It makes sense if you're not relying on them to do the majority of damage, but rather to distract and take damage which seems to be the case in a lot of games...you have roachs/mutas/fungal growth to do the damage, the lings are there for fodder.
But I'm terran...so if adrenal glands are good to get versus terran...DON'T GET THEM! :D
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Adrenal glands are necessary versus protoss imo because when you start doing late game ling drops to destroy infrastructure adrenal glands makes it so zerglings beat zealots for cost so protoss can't just warp a few in to crush the lings.
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Its the first thing i get from hive tech in a zergling heavy game. Too often pros skip right over it though. The damage increase coupled with +3 is downright insane
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On October 23 2011 08:14 ilovelings wrote:
That upgrade is awesome if you are not playing with Broodlords.
Don't most Zergs support their Broodlords with mass zerglings?
I know I've seen that a lot personally, especially in ZvP
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you always want the units of your choice upgraded. And since a Zerg using lings is more gas drowned then starved i guess getting this upgrade is a good idea. But since the upgrade isn't even close to what it was in bw people neglected it and wiped it from their mind.
But they forgot that lings were terrible strong compared to their bw buddies from the start, that was why the end had to be weaker.
Lings were since then never considered damage dealers, but then people found out the real damage comes from the broodlings and they started to upgrade melee attack for their broodlings. As a sideeffect they noticed how good lings suddenly are.
A funny way how a ground t1 unit becomes popular because of a flying t3 unit. Don't worry after their recent success upgraded lings will soon become popular. Though right now mutas are the thing again.
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On October 22 2011 13:34 Antisocialmunky wrote:
I sometimes wonder what would happen if you broodlings got crack upgrade. It would make the brood lord the worse mother ever as it would be throwing her crack addicted baby suicide bombers.
LOL This is golden.
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As terran, how do you kill 250 3/3 Zerglings with adrenal? I think that it would take an insane marine/tank/medivac army in great position or maybe some sort of mass blue flame hellion thor tank style with heavy upgrades. In any event, I'll be incorporating adrenal glands in the late game much more often now
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On October 23 2011 16:10 TangSC wrote:As terran, how do you kill 250 3/3 Zerglings with adrenal? I think that it would take an insane marine/tank/medivac army in great position or maybe some sort of mass blue flame hellion thor tank style with heavy upgrades. In any event, I'll be incorporating adrenal glands in the late game much more often now
Which means... never? Since you never get past 15 minutes?
I've said for ages fast upgraded lings rape face and break the game lol. As a terran, what's 200/200 at that point when you're already on 4+ base. Get the upgrade, just to make a 'base trade' situation faster with sling bling muta.
Run bys are more deadly. You can completely surround and kill a PF rather fast with cracklings, and not even lose them all!
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On October 22 2011 17:05 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2011 16:58 firehand101 wrote:
Gas, gas gas gas and more gas.
Sometimes, its all the pros think about at that high level and that is why you see later upgrades, banes only when they have to and so on so forth. Ever wondered why baneling speed is left by some pros? Some say they forgot it, but in reality they needed all that gas into units. Its like saying, why dont pros get +3 muta attack, it increases their effic............... it does! yes, but the gas is too critical that the pros just cant spend it at that point in time, even for a critical upgrade like adrenal glands. In most situations, 2 more broods would be much more beneficial We see pro's almost everyday fighting with 100+ lings without adrenal when hive was done 10 minutes ago and they are floating 5k/3k etc
saving up for hive tech units?
just because hive is finished doesn't mean you can get the broodlords+ultras right away
the upgrade is nice and well worth it imo.
But lings alone cannot deal with split map situations with planetary fortress and tanks splitting the map.
I do think that ling drops with adrenalin glands could be extremely amazing in late game through
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The upgrade was crucial in BW... I think people forget about it in SC2...
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for those of you saying trading lings for marines you don't know what you are talking about.
no zerg ever expects to trade zerglings for marines, that is a mistake on the terran part.
the reason pros don't get it is because zerglings are useless lategame besides for counter attacks - the only purpose they serve is to deal splash damage to the terrans units.
talks of trading marines for zerglings is useless because you will almost always have 10+ more zerglings to clean it up than you need.
the 200/200 is a big investment for something that gets off 2 attacks and dies, if that.
the + dmg is for banelings, not zerglings
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On October 23 2011 08:53 mikiao wrote:
Is adrenal glands better than getting +3 attack?
It depends on the target's armor.
Adrenal glands increases Zergling dps by 18.6%.
+3 Melee vs +2 Melee increases Zergling dps by 1.44. So vs
0 armor: 14.3%
1 armor: 16.7%
2 armor: 20.0%
3 armor: 25.0%
4 armor: 33.3%
5 armor: 50.0%
6 armor: 100.0%
Overall, I'd rather get +3 melee, especially given banelings and ultras. If I can afford it, I'll get both obviously.
That said, Adrenal Glands does research 90s faster (130s vs 220s). Not to be overlooked IMO.
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Nestea would of won if he read this thread before the last game
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It's a decent upgrade but not mandatory as in get ASAP when you reach HIVE.
+3 attack is better as it affects almost all your units and gives a bigger increase in damage since your opponent will have some armor ups by that time.
The 'problem' with adrenal glands is that it only affects a small portion of your army, often you make tons of banelings and ultra's/broods as well leaving you with few lings that actually attack much.
Still anytime a zerg is 200/200 and has gas to spare they should get it, it makes lings fight rines much better and makes them quite the force to drop.
Using medivac healing and their procentual change against a unit being healed as argument in favor of adrenal glands is just idiotic though. You can always contrive upgrades to have huge procentual increases when you take them up agianst a unit being healed. It's just a pointless statistic...
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On October 23 2011 21:08 Markwerf wrote:
It's a decent upgrade but not mandatory as in get ASAP when you reach HIVE.
+3 attack is better as it affects almost all your units and gives a bigger increase in damage since your opponent will have some armor ups by that time.
The 'problem' with adrenal glands is that it only affects a small portion of your army, often you make tons of banelings and ultra's/broods as well leaving you with few lings that actually attack much.
Still anytime a zerg is 200/200 and has gas to spare they should get it, it makes lings fight rines much better and makes them quite the force to drop.
Using medivac healing and their procentual change against a unit being healed as argument in favor of adrenal glands is just idiotic though. You can always contrive upgrades to have huge procentual increases when you take them up agianst a unit being healed. It's just a pointless statistic...
Whether it only affects a small portion of your army or not is debateable. Depends on your style. I'd argue that lings will always be the biggest portion of your army in a ZvT. Because of this I always get adrenal glands as soon as possible when I reach Hive tech. I feel it's a really important upgrade and it makes lings super strong against buildings and mech units (Mech armor rarely being upgraded making adrenal glands make a massive difference here).
I do however agree, that using medivac heal on a marine vs dps output on a ling is a useless statistic. Only place where this is relevant is for defending drops. And here I do agree that adrenal glands makes defending drops much easier, by making small groups of lings very strong against marine drops. But in big engagements its not the dps of the lings that kill your opponents lategame. It's fungals, siege splash, broodlords and muta splash. Lings just clean up once you break his siege line.
Altho on a side note, upgrading adrenal glands super fast makes ling drops super strong. It was a common thing to see in BW, altho lings were about a million times stronger in bw I know. I still think it's a really strong strategy lategame to go for mass crackling drops with 3/3 against T. Here adrenal glands makes a massive difference in the dps output against buildings. They don't have a lot of armor making attack speed very strong.
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I always get Adrenal Glands, if I'm ahead I'll even spend the gas on Hive JUST for Adrenal Glands just because I can and it's so effective.
Except for BFH, Adrenal Glands are extremely effective ZvT.
20% more DPS mineral drump > 4 Mutalisks IMO
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On October 22 2011 13:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
So I see Day9 continually harp on top Zergs neglecting the Adrenal Gland upgrade in ZvT.
While I initially disliked this due to the underwhelming nature of the upgrade, I eventually have to start siding with him. That upgrade makes all the difference.
Let's talk numbers.
Assuming 3/3 on both sides:
A fully-upgraded Marine has 45hp after stim and can be healed to a maximum of 55.
A medivac heals at 9hp/sec.
A zergling with no adrenal gland deals 7.2 DPS, leaving the target marine with a net gain of 1.8 heals while pumping out their insane damage.
An Adrenal Gland Zergling deals 8.5 DPS, reducing that same assumed net gain of HPs down to 0.5 A 72% increase in effective DPS of 1 zergling vs 1 healed marine!
2 Zerglings dead 5.4 net DPS to a marine, but 2 Adrenal Lings deal 8 net DPS a 48% increase in effective DPS!
In short. Due to the existence of Medivacs in ZvT, Adrenal Glands is probably the best use of 200/200 in the late game.
Why are pros refusing to research this upgrade?
your numbers just don't make a lot of sense, because you assume very low supply situations.
Fact is, that marines potential grows exponentially, zerglings only logarithmic.
The problems lategame zergs are facing are, that lowrange units don't get into range anymore against lots of tanks and massive marine balls. Making one of those units (the zergling) do more damage doesn't make a lot of difference in army vs army scenarios. That's why a lot of pros just don't get the upgrade right away when they hit hive unless they play a zergling style (ling/ultra/infestor).
Especially if you want to go for broodlords, an extra broodlord is just way better, than adrenalin glands, because once again, broodlords power grows exponentially.
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Im not good, Though my main strategy involves in both ZvT and ZvP revolves around heavily upgraded lings, and banes.
I often go up to hive on 3 bases just to get quick adrenal. Really feel that Adrenal should be started before 3/3 for lings. Pretty sure its cheaper and faster to upgrade.
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Unless you go for a Roach heavy composition, your army will have zerglings at some point of the late game. Adrenal Glands will always be more cost effective than 200 gas on a tech unit, simply because the zergling is the mineral dump unit.
Many people put too much stock in pro players. It's a late game upgrade on a tier 0 unit, so they understandably forget, amongst all the multitasking and pressure they put up with.
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On October 24 2011 01:54 Remb wrote:
Unless you go for a Roach heavy composition, your army will have zerglings at some point of the late game. Adrenal Glands will always be more cost effective than 200 gas on a tech unit, simply because the zergling is the mineral dump unit.
Many people put too much stock in pro players. It's a late game upgrade on a tier 0 unit, so they understandably forget, amongst all the multitasking and pressure they put up with.
zerglings are tier 1
tier 0 includes only drones and overlords
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it's the gas cost of 1 ultra to make your zerglings actually worth something against marines and zealots...
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I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory.
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On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory.
The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon)
If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades.
Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition.
It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies).
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Russian Federation473 Posts
it's just stupid not to get this upgrade if you have many zerglings. +20 % attack speed always helps.
don't see what to discuss here.
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Often times lings are no longer a game changer in super lategame ZvX, so it's not worth getting adrenal glands. You want to focus your gas into more infestors or broodlords or ultras, not zerglings. A single storm still 1 shots lings, siege tanks will still 2 shot them, but the majority of your supply will likely be in t2-t3 units anyways. You don't see zerg hive tech with ton of lings, generally in very late game zerg has their supply filled up in ultras or bls or infestors or mutas.
And a single ultra does much better than lings in a big fight.
If it was lair tech maybe it'd be more useful. I'm not really sure, but you don't see protoss stick to only stalkers or terran still using mostly marines. They usually will ahve lots of ghosts and siege tanks and thors, or colossi and storm and archons, all of which own cracklings.
However I believe stephano has a build where he goes super fast 2 base hive and only makes zerglings. He gets 3/3 extremely fast and just goes pure ling, and does quite well in zvt with it it seems. I know kas raged against it.
It's the same reason you don't see protoss get charge when they are using colossi heavy or deathball sort of armies in the lategame, or terran get blue flame. You just aren't reliant on such cheap, flimsy units anymore. If Terran promises he'll only make tank/marine/medivac even on 6+ bases in late game, then sure, I'll get adrenal. But most likely they are maxing tanks and ghosts.
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On October 22 2011 13:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why are pros refusing to research this upgrade?
Cost of 200/200, i think it's quite obvious. There is no other reason to not research this upgrade.
if lings got 3/3 i think it's always worth upgrading adrenal glands if you have economy for that.
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passive buffs = always nice to get if you use the unit or building anyway. The reason why people got it rarely is easy: "omg its only 1/3 as good as in bw, such a waste". Then everyone hated lings (as evo chambers where never build for upgrades). Now lings came back a while ago after some pros used them effectively with upgrades.
The meele upgrade is nice to have anyway since all t3 unit benefit from it. So if you want to build more then 12 lings on hive get the upgrade  , since you have the meele and armor upgrades anyway.
Don't worry its just a matter of time till everyone jumps on the wagon. New finds always take some time until they are adapted.
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I think most ppl just forget about it. It doesnt "feel" different (like slow roaches to fast roaches), it doesnt add clearly visible numbers (like upgrades), it adds no button (like blink), it doesnt add new graphics (like combat shields). So if I forget the critical roach speed upgrade, I will recognise that after a while (why are my roaches still slow?). If I forget about burrow, I will miss a button.
If I forget about adrenal glands... well... I forgot.
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The only time the faster attack speed is generally better than +3 (if you are actually able to start +3 at that time) is when you will not be using many banelings, ultralisks or brood lords (some of any or all is unimportant) and the enemy units have probably 0 armour upgrades so that the difference from the +3 compared to +2 is 8 instead of 7, for ~14.3% stronger instead of the 18.6% from Adrenal Glands (the 20% is a lie! Brood War AG provided +33% by the way on top of the far faster base attack speed of lings in BW).
Adrenal Glands also complete faster, but zerg wouldn't generally be planning for some exact AG timing push unless it was nicely times with +2 and an adequately fast hive to allow for AG. A nice idea behind getting AG first used to be that it allowed the lings to lay that first hit sooner, which also meant that they would be better at hitting fleeing units while chasing them, as each first hit (before they keep hitting on the spot) would have that much less of an initial delay, so that they'd be less likely to run up, get close enough and then possibly whiff due to the target getting just out of range before the attack cooldown would pass. Attack cooldowns basically start before the first attack, else every first hit would be instantaneous (not counting animation delays such as for the hydralisk attack).
Unfortunately, unlike in Brood War, this upgrade doesn't increase the attack rate by enough and lings start with a way slower attack rate anyway, so it doesn't really have a very noticeable affect on ability to hit consistently fleeing units. With their speed, lings are mostly fine at it anyway, but it really should be 33% as it used to be. 
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On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies).
You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency.
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On November 10 2011 22:25 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:The only time the faster attack speed is generally better than +3 (if you are actually able to start +3 at that time) is when you will not be using many banelings, ultralisks or brood lords (some of any or all is unimportant) and the enemy units have probably 0 armour upgrades so that the difference from the +3 compared to +2 is 8 instead of 7, for ~14.3% stronger instead of the 18.6% from Adrenal Glands (the 20% is a lie! Brood War AG provided +33% by the way on top of the far faster base attack speed of lings in BW). Adrenal Glands also complete faster, but zerg wouldn't generally be planning for some exact AG timing push unless it was nicely times with +2 and an adequately fast hive to allow for AG. A nice idea behind getting AG first used to be that it allowed the lings to lay that first hit sooner, which also meant that they would be better at hitting fleeing units while chasing them, as each first hit (before they keep hitting on the spot) would have that much less of an initial delay, so that they'd be less likely to run up, get close enough and then possibly whiff due to the target getting just out of range before the attack cooldown would pass. Attack cooldowns basically start before the first attack, else every first hit would be instantaneous (not counting animation delays such as for the hydralisk attack). Unfortunately, unlike in Brood War, this upgrade doesn't increase the attack rate by enough and lings start with a way slower attack rate anyway, so it doesn't really have a very noticeable affect on ability to hit consistently fleeing units. With their speed, lings are mostly fine at it anyway, but it really should be 33% as it used to be.
The argument isn't +3 vs Adrenal. The point is in most the pro games you see we'll be 30 minutes in and the casters will be wondering the 3/3 zerg army with many lings still doesn't have adrenal.
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On November 10 2011 21:08 Belial88 wrote:
Often times lings are no longer a game changer in super lategame ZvX, so it's not worth getting adrenal glands. You want to focus your gas into more infestors or broodlords or ultras, not zerglings. A single storm still 1 shots lings, siege tanks will still 2 shot them, but the majority of your supply will likely be in t2-t3 units anyways. You don't see zerg hive tech with ton of lings, generally in very late game zerg has their supply filled up in ultras or bls or infestors or mutas.
And a single ultra does much better than lings in a big fight.
If it was lair tech maybe it'd be more useful. I'm not really sure, but you don't see protoss stick to only stalkers or terran still using mostly marines. They usually will ahve lots of ghosts and siege tanks and thors, or colossi and storm and archons, all of which own cracklings.
However I believe stephano has a build where he goes super fast 2 base hive and only makes zerglings. He gets 3/3 extremely fast and just goes pure ling, and does quite well in zvt with it it seems. I know kas raged against it.
It's the same reason you don't see protoss get charge when they are using colossi heavy or deathball sort of armies in the lategame, or terran get blue flame. You just aren't reliant on such cheap, flimsy units anymore. If Terran promises he'll only make tank/marine/medivac even on 6+ bases in late game, then sure, I'll get adrenal. But most likely they are maxing tanks and ghosts.
I respectfully disagree with this. At 200 minerals 200 gas in the late game when you are on 4-5+ bases, adrenal glands are not the difference between having broodlords or not having broodlords. The are not the difference in having Ultralisks vs not having Ultralisks. Getting adrenal glands means having 13 broodlords instead of 14. Or 11 Ultralisks instead of 12. A dps boost to all of your speedlings has a greater impact than adding one more t3 unit.
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Right, I get that 1 less broodlord is okay. But adrenal glands are worthless because lings are useless due to AoE. I don't care if lings do 20 dps with adrenal glands, storm, 4+ colossi, and siege tanks become fielded in extreme late game that just rape any number of lings in one shot. They are too frail.
It's the same reason you don't see blue flame hellions used against mass zealot in lategame TvP. They are just too frail, even though it nearly doubles the damage. Blue flame is a lot more 'dramatic' than adrenal glands, but at the extreme lategame, hellions, just like lings, just die too damn quickly.
You really shouldn't be getting hive until you are about 5+ bases, so the time it would make a difference is better served getting other things instead. When terran is still on tank/rine/medivac and doesn't have ghosts yet and is only on 3 bases, and I still have 20+ mutas, I'd rather spend the gas on an infestor and then run in with mass ling/bane/muta.
But extreme late game, when you get hive - I am not making lings anymore, because they aren't really useful anymore. You don't use zerglings in extreme lategame against Terran, you go for ultralisks, and you turn all lings into banes, if you even have any. Against protoss you make roaches or ultras or broodlords, a single storm or 4+ colossi just makes all zerglings useless.
How about reaper speed. It makes reapers soo much faster! Oh, because in lategame, they just die too fast to be useful and you are moving on to bigger and better tech. I'm sure Terran would rather have an extra ghost than blue flame on all his hellions.
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On November 10 2011 22:39 EtherealDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies). You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency.
The difference is that zealots survive longer than zerglings and are likely to hit a target, while most zerglings won't ever get a hit off in their full lifetime against a tank/marine army.
If I get the upgrade in a nonzergling/upgrade focused build, how many lings do I usually have? 40? 60? (I honestly don't know exactly, but given the fact that I'm having 70supply in drones, 40+supply in mutalisks, 10 supply in queens and ~the same amount of banelings as zerglings, it shouldn't be much more than 30supply zerglings, as I still want to be able to have broodlords or ultras when I'm going for Hive) Even if it's 80 zerglings, once I'm attacking a Tank/Marine army with them, 50+ will be dead before hitting anything. So I upgraded units that are worth ~500+ minerals with a 200/200 upgrade. Let's assume that those 30lings all get an extra hit through the upgrade before the die (which is unlikely) and they are on even upgrades with their targets (which is unlikely, as I'm not playing an upgrade style): I got 150 extra damage through AG...
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On November 11 2011 00:05 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 22:39 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies). You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency. The difference is that zealots survive longer than zerglings and are likely to hit a target, while most zerglings won't ever get a hit off in their full lifetime against a tank/marine army.
That's a very good point. Most of the zerglings in late game never even reach their target, that's why adrenal is not that efficient.
But overall i think getting adrenal is really good even if you go muta/ling/bling. Zerg usually dumps most of their extra minerals into zerglings anyway so why not have upgrade for them?
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On November 11 2011 00:10 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2011 00:05 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 22:39 EtherealDeath wrote:On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies). You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency. The difference is that zealots survive longer than zerglings and are likely to hit a target, while most zerglings won't ever get a hit off in their full lifetime against a tank/marine army. That's a very good point. Most of the zerglings in late game never even reach their target, that's why adrenal is not that efficient. But overall i think getting adrenal is really good even if you go muta/ling/bling. Zerg usually dumps most of their extra minerals into zerglings anyway so why not have upgrade for them?
Don't get me wrong, I think everyone should get it at a certain point of the game (if the game reaches that point), because there still might come phases in which you just want to be able to spawn more stuff towards your opponent, and which unit is better for this than an highspeed, short buildtime, cheap unit? I just don't think that it is really essential in a standing composition that contains if you're fighting marines or splash units, while the difference between 5 broodlords and 8 broodlords is huge and simply can make the difference between winning or losing . (which is the difference between AD and 3/3, which are probably not usefull for the next engagement).
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On November 10 2011 23:35 Belial88 wrote:
Right, I get that 1 less broodlord is okay. But adrenal glands are worthless because lings are useless due to AoE. I don't care if lings do 20 dps with adrenal glands, storm, 4+ colossi, and siege tanks become fielded in extreme late game that just rape any number of lings in one shot. They are too frail.
It's the same reason you don't see blue flame hellions used against mass zealot in lategame TvP. They are just too frail, even though it nearly doubles the damage. Blue flame is a lot more 'dramatic' than adrenal glands, but at the extreme lategame, hellions, just like lings, just die too damn quickly.
You really shouldn't be getting hive until you are about 5+ bases, so the time it would make a difference is better served getting other things instead. When terran is still on tank/rine/medivac and doesn't have ghosts yet and is only on 3 bases, and I still have 20+ mutas, I'd rather spend the gas on an infestor and then run in with mass ling/bane/muta.
But extreme late game, when you get hive - I am not making lings anymore, because they aren't really useful anymore. You don't use zerglings in extreme lategame against Terran, you go for ultralisks, and you turn all lings into banes, if you even have any. Against protoss you make roaches or ultras or broodlords, a single storm or 4+ colossi just makes all zerglings useless.
How about reaper speed. It makes reapers soo much faster! Oh, because in lategame, they just die too fast to be useful and you are moving on to bigger and better tech. I'm sure Terran would rather have an extra ghost than blue flame on all his hellions.
Great now you got ultras, but now eventually they've got a ridiculous number of ghosts with which to destroy ultras and broodlords if they are controlled well. Tanks are in position to blow up banes, which are even more fragile than lings. So now is a great time to do a quick ling switch, with literally over a hundred lings at times. Probably would be nice to have adrenal as opposed to 1 extra infestor.
Also the point of this thread isn't why zergs don't go adrenal in every game. He was specifically pointing out particular games where the zerg might be on ultraling or whatever with a not insignificant number of lings, often to the point where a lot of them will get quite a few hits off. Not to mention they are useful for backstabbing planetaries and expansions in general.
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top players stick with the 'trends' usually... use what's tried and tested, if it works then you don't need to switch it up.
i feel the same way about reapers... upgraded reapers are godlike in lategame with the more 'spread' expos and slower logistics. but noone seems to use lategame reapers, not even if their opponent is overwhelming them with zealot/marine/ling pressure.
oh no mutas stopped your medivac drops? errr upgraded reapers move faster than mutas.
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It's a very unobtrusive upgrade, meaning that it's very easy to overlook. You only ever click on your spawning pool when you get ling speed, and since the upgrade is hive tech, you don't get it all that often.
I think it's definitely worth getting, but it's just easy to forget about. Also, day[9] makes such a huge deal about it since it was a much bigger deal in BW.
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cracklings aren't what they used to be : (
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I think one of the big reasons that pros neglect this upgrade is because they never get to a point where they feel they are using enough lings in their main army to warrant it. I mean, it's a great upgrade, and I agree that everyone should take it when they get a chance, but if lings aren't in your comp for anything but run-by's and drop prevention, then you could get mad upgrades other places before investing in the crack upgrade.
Who knows, though? I think it's just something that hasn't caught on in the metagame, and if lings are used more late game in the coming months, I think we will see more pros getting this upgrade. The pros in Zerg have been improving by leaps and bounds lately, and I think this is one more step they can take to continue that trend. Top Zergs get it often (Nestea, Leenock) the rest will follow suit.
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Wow OP that is interesting math, never thought of it that way o.o I always liked to get it cus it just seems like such a cool upgrade but never really thought about whether or not it was "practical" xD
On November 11 2011 00:55 ishboh wrote:
cracklings aren't what they used to be : (
Well the adrenal glands upgrade attack boost is much much less than it was in BW, but I think that's because, coupled with the zerglings' improved AI in SC2, it would be too strong of an upgrade.
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On October 22 2011 13:38 KimJongChill wrote:
It's crazy how good adrenal is haha, such a simple thing! Maybe there should be like adrenal rush builds.
If I'm ahead ZvT I'll start my Hive as early as 12:00 just to get +3 and Adrenal.
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On November 11 2011 00:55 ishboh wrote:
cracklings aren't what they used to be : (
Yeah that's another thing. I think that many pros have strayed away from Adrenal Glands because it isn't NEARLY as good as it was in BW. In BW, AG was a vital upgrade. Now, it is very possible to win with other tech because people are straying away from heavy Zerglings in the time where they have a Hive. If you can go upgrades for Brood Lords or Ultras rather than AG, that is typically what you will do.
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~8 hatch ling bane with full upgrades + a few infestors can beat any terran comp, tech farther and die to ghosts then complain about imbalance... Same comp but with 2-4 ultras beats any protoss comp. Also, zergs are the slowest teching highest econ race in the game, that needs to change, they need hive way faster, and it really bugs me when they neglect it, and then waste 4k/3k on a bunch of broods late game and then complain that the game is broken. No you are just retarded, no army except mass thor works well when entirely based around super SUPPORT units.
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On November 11 2011 03:22 Zirith wrote:
~8 hatch ling bane with full upgrades + a few infestors can beat any terran comp, tech farther and die to ghosts then complain about imbalance... Same comp but with 2-4 ultras beats any protoss comp. Also, zergs are the slowest teching highest econ race in the game, that needs to change, they need hive way faster, and it really bugs me when they neglect it, and then waste 4k/3k on a bunch of broods late game and then complain that the game is broken. No you are just retarded, no army except mass thor works well when entirely based around super SUPPORT units.
And who makes you decide what a support unit is what not?
Mass broodlord works, mass thor works, mass tank works, mass void ray works, mass archon works... That's all higher tech units, and has nothing to do with their role in the army, which varies in different compositions and in different unit counts.
(best example--> marine/tank turns into tank/marine in the lategame)
Also... Tell Mass Orbital 50scv macro terrans like MVP that they must not have a higher income than their zerg counterparts, and that they should tech faster to ghosts, even though there is no reason for it...
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I wish I could have Adrenal Crystals for my Zealots... it would make Warp Prism harass a lot more entertaining.
More on-topic, I think it's the same reason that a lot of pros will forget to get Concussive Shells from time to time. They've trained themselves so well to focus on things like building workers that things that more casual players like myself would consider mindless fall by the wayside. Oh well, they're the best players in the world. I'm hardly in a position to criticize them for those slip-ups. When some of them start to get the more general things down as well, I'm sure we'll see a whole new level of professional play.
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Personal experience is that this upgrade is a huge buff to my lings, especially since I favor ling heavy builds. Lings are the marines of Zerg (except they don't shoot up lulz), but they are always stimmed once you research the upgrade .
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United States7166 Posts
i want to shoot anyone who calls lings with adrenal in sc2 "cracklings" because that name only belongs to the bw cracklings, which actually attack insanely fast with adrenal... hence the name. the adrenal upgrade is not only a smaller increase, but the base attack speed is significantly lower in sc2... really sc2 adrenalings seems about equivalent to normal zerglings in BW.
in a more serious note, when going for ling-builds and can afford it I'll always get it. the order of precedence is melee upgrades up to and including lvl 2, then adrenal, then level 3. i heard a while back that +2 attack is more cost effective than adrenal, which is more cost effective than +3. it does feel about equivalent to one extra attack upgrade, as others have said
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Adrenal Glands is great, but even with 3/3, it is hard to engage against splash units. It's still definitely worth the money, but generally people don't even care about zerglings at that point in the game in any matchup.
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On November 11 2011 07:22 Zelniq wrote:
i want to shoot anyone who calls lings with adrenal in sc2 "cracklings" because that name only belongs to the bw cracklings, which actually attack insanely fast with adrenal... hence the name. the adrenal upgrade is not only a smaller increase, but the base attack speed is significantly lower in sc2... really sc2 adrenalings seems about equivalent to normal zerglings in BW.
in a more serious note, when going for ling-builds and can afford it I'll always get it. the order of precedence is melee upgrades up to and including lvl 2, then adrenal, then level 3. i heard a while back that +2 attack is more cost effective than adrenal, which is more cost effective than +3. it does feel about equivalent to one extra attack upgrade, as others have said
I apologize, my good sir. I believe you want to shoot me now.
Adrenalings. That is their new name.
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EPT
