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It's a decent upgrade but not mandatory as in get ASAP when you reach HIVE.
+3 attack is better as it affects almost all your units and gives a bigger increase in damage since your opponent will have some armor ups by that time.
The 'problem' with adrenal glands is that it only affects a small portion of your army, often you make tons of banelings and ultra's/broods as well leaving you with few lings that actually attack much.
Still anytime a zerg is 200/200 and has gas to spare they should get it, it makes lings fight rines much better and makes them quite the force to drop.
Using medivac healing and their procentual change against a unit being healed as argument in favor of adrenal glands is just idiotic though. You can always contrive upgrades to have huge procentual increases when you take them up agianst a unit being healed. It's just a pointless statistic...
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On October 23 2011 21:08 Markwerf wrote:
It's a decent upgrade but not mandatory as in get ASAP when you reach HIVE.
+3 attack is better as it affects almost all your units and gives a bigger increase in damage since your opponent will have some armor ups by that time.
The 'problem' with adrenal glands is that it only affects a small portion of your army, often you make tons of banelings and ultra's/broods as well leaving you with few lings that actually attack much.
Still anytime a zerg is 200/200 and has gas to spare they should get it, it makes lings fight rines much better and makes them quite the force to drop.
Using medivac healing and their procentual change against a unit being healed as argument in favor of adrenal glands is just idiotic though. You can always contrive upgrades to have huge procentual increases when you take them up agianst a unit being healed. It's just a pointless statistic...
Whether it only affects a small portion of your army or not is debateable. Depends on your style. I'd argue that lings will always be the biggest portion of your army in a ZvT. Because of this I always get adrenal glands as soon as possible when I reach Hive tech. I feel it's a really important upgrade and it makes lings super strong against buildings and mech units (Mech armor rarely being upgraded making adrenal glands make a massive difference here).
I do however agree, that using medivac heal on a marine vs dps output on a ling is a useless statistic. Only place where this is relevant is for defending drops. And here I do agree that adrenal glands makes defending drops much easier, by making small groups of lings very strong against marine drops. But in big engagements its not the dps of the lings that kill your opponents lategame. It's fungals, siege splash, broodlords and muta splash. Lings just clean up once you break his siege line.
Altho on a side note, upgrading adrenal glands super fast makes ling drops super strong. It was a common thing to see in BW, altho lings were about a million times stronger in bw I know. I still think it's a really strong strategy lategame to go for mass crackling drops with 3/3 against T. Here adrenal glands makes a massive difference in the dps output against buildings. They don't have a lot of armor making attack speed very strong.
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I always get Adrenal Glands, if I'm ahead I'll even spend the gas on Hive JUST for Adrenal Glands just because I can and it's so effective.
Except for BFH, Adrenal Glands are extremely effective ZvT.
20% more DPS mineral drump > 4 Mutalisks IMO
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On October 22 2011 13:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
So I see Day9 continually harp on top Zergs neglecting the Adrenal Gland upgrade in ZvT.
While I initially disliked this due to the underwhelming nature of the upgrade, I eventually have to start siding with him. That upgrade makes all the difference.
Let's talk numbers.
Assuming 3/3 on both sides:
A fully-upgraded Marine has 45hp after stim and can be healed to a maximum of 55.
A medivac heals at 9hp/sec.
A zergling with no adrenal gland deals 7.2 DPS, leaving the target marine with a net gain of 1.8 heals while pumping out their insane damage.
An Adrenal Gland Zergling deals 8.5 DPS, reducing that same assumed net gain of HPs down to 0.5 A 72% increase in effective DPS of 1 zergling vs 1 healed marine!
2 Zerglings dead 5.4 net DPS to a marine, but 2 Adrenal Lings deal 8 net DPS a 48% increase in effective DPS!
In short. Due to the existence of Medivacs in ZvT, Adrenal Glands is probably the best use of 200/200 in the late game.
Why are pros refusing to research this upgrade?
your numbers just don't make a lot of sense, because you assume very low supply situations.
Fact is, that marines potential grows exponentially, zerglings only logarithmic.
The problems lategame zergs are facing are, that lowrange units don't get into range anymore against lots of tanks and massive marine balls. Making one of those units (the zergling) do more damage doesn't make a lot of difference in army vs army scenarios. That's why a lot of pros just don't get the upgrade right away when they hit hive unless they play a zergling style (ling/ultra/infestor).
Especially if you want to go for broodlords, an extra broodlord is just way better, than adrenalin glands, because once again, broodlords power grows exponentially.
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Im not good, Though my main strategy involves in both ZvT and ZvP revolves around heavily upgraded lings, and banes.
I often go up to hive on 3 bases just to get quick adrenal. Really feel that Adrenal should be started before 3/3 for lings. Pretty sure its cheaper and faster to upgrade.
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Unless you go for a Roach heavy composition, your army will have zerglings at some point of the late game. Adrenal Glands will always be more cost effective than 200 gas on a tech unit, simply because the zergling is the mineral dump unit.
Many people put too much stock in pro players. It's a late game upgrade on a tier 0 unit, so they understandably forget, amongst all the multitasking and pressure they put up with.
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On October 24 2011 01:54 Remb wrote:
Unless you go for a Roach heavy composition, your army will have zerglings at some point of the late game. Adrenal Glands will always be more cost effective than 200 gas on a tech unit, simply because the zergling is the mineral dump unit.
Many people put too much stock in pro players. It's a late game upgrade on a tier 0 unit, so they understandably forget, amongst all the multitasking and pressure they put up with.
zerglings are tier 1
tier 0 includes only drones and overlords
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it's the gas cost of 1 ultra to make your zerglings actually worth something against marines and zealots...
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I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory.
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On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory.
The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon)
If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades.
Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition.
It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies).
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Russian Federation473 Posts
it's just stupid not to get this upgrade if you have many zerglings. +20 % attack speed always helps.
don't see what to discuss here.
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Often times lings are no longer a game changer in super lategame ZvX, so it's not worth getting adrenal glands. You want to focus your gas into more infestors or broodlords or ultras, not zerglings. A single storm still 1 shots lings, siege tanks will still 2 shot them, but the majority of your supply will likely be in t2-t3 units anyways. You don't see zerg hive tech with ton of lings, generally in very late game zerg has their supply filled up in ultras or bls or infestors or mutas.
And a single ultra does much better than lings in a big fight.
If it was lair tech maybe it'd be more useful. I'm not really sure, but you don't see protoss stick to only stalkers or terran still using mostly marines. They usually will ahve lots of ghosts and siege tanks and thors, or colossi and storm and archons, all of which own cracklings.
However I believe stephano has a build where he goes super fast 2 base hive and only makes zerglings. He gets 3/3 extremely fast and just goes pure ling, and does quite well in zvt with it it seems. I know kas raged against it.
It's the same reason you don't see protoss get charge when they are using colossi heavy or deathball sort of armies in the lategame, or terran get blue flame. You just aren't reliant on such cheap, flimsy units anymore. If Terran promises he'll only make tank/marine/medivac even on 6+ bases in late game, then sure, I'll get adrenal. But most likely they are maxing tanks and ghosts.
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On October 22 2011 13:28 Jermstuddog wrote:
Why are pros refusing to research this upgrade?
Cost of 200/200, i think it's quite obvious. There is no other reason to not research this upgrade.
if lings got 3/3 i think it's always worth upgrading adrenal glands if you have economy for that.
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passive buffs = always nice to get if you use the unit or building anyway. The reason why people got it rarely is easy: "omg its only 1/3 as good as in bw, such a waste". Then everyone hated lings (as evo chambers where never build for upgrades). Now lings came back a while ago after some pros used them effectively with upgrades.
The meele upgrade is nice to have anyway since all t3 unit benefit from it. So if you want to build more then 12 lings on hive get the upgrade  , since you have the meele and armor upgrades anyway.
Don't worry its just a matter of time till everyone jumps on the wagon. New finds always take some time until they are adapted.
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I think most ppl just forget about it. It doesnt "feel" different (like slow roaches to fast roaches), it doesnt add clearly visible numbers (like upgrades), it adds no button (like blink), it doesnt add new graphics (like combat shields). So if I forget the critical roach speed upgrade, I will recognise that after a while (why are my roaches still slow?). If I forget about burrow, I will miss a button.
If I forget about adrenal glands... well... I forgot.
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The only time the faster attack speed is generally better than +3 (if you are actually able to start +3 at that time) is when you will not be using many banelings, ultralisks or brood lords (some of any or all is unimportant) and the enemy units have probably 0 armour upgrades so that the difference from the +3 compared to +2 is 8 instead of 7, for ~14.3% stronger instead of the 18.6% from Adrenal Glands (the 20% is a lie! Brood War AG provided +33% by the way on top of the far faster base attack speed of lings in BW).
Adrenal Glands also complete faster, but zerg wouldn't generally be planning for some exact AG timing push unless it was nicely times with +2 and an adequately fast hive to allow for AG. A nice idea behind getting AG first used to be that it allowed the lings to lay that first hit sooner, which also meant that they would be better at hitting fleeing units while chasing them, as each first hit (before they keep hitting on the spot) would have that much less of an initial delay, so that they'd be less likely to run up, get close enough and then possibly whiff due to the target getting just out of range before the attack cooldown would pass. Attack cooldowns basically start before the first attack, else every first hit would be instantaneous (not counting animation delays such as for the hydralisk attack).
Unfortunately, unlike in Brood War, this upgrade doesn't increase the attack rate by enough and lings start with a way slower attack rate anyway, so it doesn't really have a very noticeable affect on ability to hit consistently fleeing units. With their speed, lings are mostly fine at it anyway, but it really should be 33% as it used to be. 
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On November 10 2011 20:56 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2011 20:20 Sbrubbles wrote:
I don't get what the argument is! Unless you're adamant on not making lings, it is is an upgrade that's always worth getting, even if it means one less infestor/BL/ultra.
Most pros seem to forget it by a simple lapse of memory. The upgrade only makes sense when you go for a zergling style, or if you want to attack bases with them. It's like Protoss players who don't go for charge, when they only use zealots as mineraldump unit, while they get it, when they are playing a Zealot heavy style (double upgrades, Zealot/Archon) If you're going for a baneling style like ling/bling/mutalisks, the zerglings main use is to buffer damage and to block movement, so your banelings can hit the marines. Most of your zerglings will die in tank and marinefire before they even hit a target. A big number of the remaining zerglings will still die before it gets to attack even twice, no matter if they have +20%attack speed or not. Also those styles require a lot of gas for mutas and banelings early, therefore zerglings will generally be less upgraded than marines, so the +20% attack speed isn't as good as it is on even or superior upgrades. Trust the pros, they know why they are getting it asap when they play styles like ling/infestor/Ultralisk, and hardly ever instantly at hive tech when they come from ling/bling/Mutalisk or some roachbased composition. It is generally better if you go for it early against a low dps/splash composition (like gatewayheavy armies), then against a high dps/splash composition (like marineheavy armies).
You know if I could upgrade my buffer units (zealots) to also dish out an incredible amount of increased dps (cracklings) I would certainly do so by lategame. Hell I will end up with charge anyways by then usually since by then you've got a ridiculous amount of resources and you never know when you'll need a chargelot wave due to some fuckup or some other contingency.
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On November 10 2011 22:25 Fuchsteufelswild wrote:The only time the faster attack speed is generally better than +3 (if you are actually able to start +3 at that time) is when you will not be using many banelings, ultralisks or brood lords (some of any or all is unimportant) and the enemy units have probably 0 armour upgrades so that the difference from the +3 compared to +2 is 8 instead of 7, for ~14.3% stronger instead of the 18.6% from Adrenal Glands (the 20% is a lie! Brood War AG provided +33% by the way on top of the far faster base attack speed of lings in BW). Adrenal Glands also complete faster, but zerg wouldn't generally be planning for some exact AG timing push unless it was nicely times with +2 and an adequately fast hive to allow for AG. A nice idea behind getting AG first used to be that it allowed the lings to lay that first hit sooner, which also meant that they would be better at hitting fleeing units while chasing them, as each first hit (before they keep hitting on the spot) would have that much less of an initial delay, so that they'd be less likely to run up, get close enough and then possibly whiff due to the target getting just out of range before the attack cooldown would pass. Attack cooldowns basically start before the first attack, else every first hit would be instantaneous (not counting animation delays such as for the hydralisk attack). Unfortunately, unlike in Brood War, this upgrade doesn't increase the attack rate by enough and lings start with a way slower attack rate anyway, so it doesn't really have a very noticeable affect on ability to hit consistently fleeing units. With their speed, lings are mostly fine at it anyway, but it really should be 33% as it used to be.
The argument isn't +3 vs Adrenal. The point is in most the pro games you see we'll be 30 minutes in and the casters will be wondering the 3/3 zerg army with many lings still doesn't have adrenal.
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On November 10 2011 21:08 Belial88 wrote:
Often times lings are no longer a game changer in super lategame ZvX, so it's not worth getting adrenal glands. You want to focus your gas into more infestors or broodlords or ultras, not zerglings. A single storm still 1 shots lings, siege tanks will still 2 shot them, but the majority of your supply will likely be in t2-t3 units anyways. You don't see zerg hive tech with ton of lings, generally in very late game zerg has their supply filled up in ultras or bls or infestors or mutas.
And a single ultra does much better than lings in a big fight.
If it was lair tech maybe it'd be more useful. I'm not really sure, but you don't see protoss stick to only stalkers or terran still using mostly marines. They usually will ahve lots of ghosts and siege tanks and thors, or colossi and storm and archons, all of which own cracklings.
However I believe stephano has a build where he goes super fast 2 base hive and only makes zerglings. He gets 3/3 extremely fast and just goes pure ling, and does quite well in zvt with it it seems. I know kas raged against it.
It's the same reason you don't see protoss get charge when they are using colossi heavy or deathball sort of armies in the lategame, or terran get blue flame. You just aren't reliant on such cheap, flimsy units anymore. If Terran promises he'll only make tank/marine/medivac even on 6+ bases in late game, then sure, I'll get adrenal. But most likely they are maxing tanks and ghosts.
I respectfully disagree with this. At 200 minerals 200 gas in the late game when you are on 4-5+ bases, adrenal glands are not the difference between having broodlords or not having broodlords. The are not the difference in having Ultralisks vs not having Ultralisks. Getting adrenal glands means having 13 broodlords instead of 14. Or 11 Ultralisks instead of 12. A dps boost to all of your speedlings has a greater impact than adding one more t3 unit.
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Right, I get that 1 less broodlord is okay. But adrenal glands are worthless because lings are useless due to AoE. I don't care if lings do 20 dps with adrenal glands, storm, 4+ colossi, and siege tanks become fielded in extreme late game that just rape any number of lings in one shot. They are too frail.
It's the same reason you don't see blue flame hellions used against mass zealot in lategame TvP. They are just too frail, even though it nearly doubles the damage. Blue flame is a lot more 'dramatic' than adrenal glands, but at the extreme lategame, hellions, just like lings, just die too damn quickly.
You really shouldn't be getting hive until you are about 5+ bases, so the time it would make a difference is better served getting other things instead. When terran is still on tank/rine/medivac and doesn't have ghosts yet and is only on 3 bases, and I still have 20+ mutas, I'd rather spend the gas on an infestor and then run in with mass ling/bane/muta.
But extreme late game, when you get hive - I am not making lings anymore, because they aren't really useful anymore. You don't use zerglings in extreme lategame against Terran, you go for ultralisks, and you turn all lings into banes, if you even have any. Against protoss you make roaches or ultras or broodlords, a single storm or 4+ colossi just makes all zerglings useless.
How about reaper speed. It makes reapers soo much faster! Oh, because in lategame, they just die too fast to be useful and you are moving on to bigger and better tech. I'm sure Terran would rather have an extra ghost than blue flame on all his hellions.
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