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On December 11 2011 04:56 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
Hi decaf, I have a question. I'm a toss player that switching to Zerg in next season, I didn't watch all the replays but from the replays I watched I didn't see much creep spread. How do you handle creep spread? Is it a stylistic choice going using all the Queen energy for injects?
Hey, vs protoss I simply don't find it that necessary. If you want to spread creep aggressively get an extra queen (I probably should do this, since it does help even if there's no split micro like in ZvT going on), because you'll need all your injects to drone up in the early game, which is super important. Plus ling muta is a style that really isn't that dependent on creep.
So yea, you can and should do it and if you do get a 3rd queen for it (which is always nice vs stargate play anyways).
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I do the 3 Queen opener so I can get creep everywhere. It especially helps when you creep your base like Stephano so Warp Prism/Stargate plays are easier to deal with. This means less minerals obviously but since I'm pretty bad at macro, this isn't really an issue for me 
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Sorry I know this is a bit OT , amazing guide btw it's given me some direction which I was clearly lacking in this MU, pretty ,much relying on hydra ling drops to win me the game before they can build an army to deal with it :< Was wondering if you have any plans for guides for dealing with the other mu's? Also nice having the games casted and in replay form  thanks a lot for the time you have clearly put into this guide.
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Well, I didn't put any work into the casts, that's all KangaRuthless' work who voluntarily agreed to do it, so credit for the casts goes to him!
Right now I have a ZvZ guide in mind with heavy focus on the early game, but that'll take quite some time to finish, because as one of my friends said: "ZvZ is too fucked for guides". Maybe with the start of the new ladder season or something like that.
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ok thanks mate and yeah sorry for not mentioning kanga's name while thanking people for time
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Hey decaf,
Thanks a ton for doing all that work, I really appreciate it! I have been giving your guidelines a try and so far I am pretty happy with the way the eco gets up to speed so quickly.
Cheers, glhf and spread the love.
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On December 11 2011 05:10 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 04:56 ApocAlypsE007 wrote:
Hi decaf, I have a question. I'm a toss player that switching to Zerg in next season, I didn't watch all the replays but from the replays I watched I didn't see much creep spread. How do you handle creep spread? Is it a stylistic choice going using all the Queen energy for injects? Hey, vs protoss I simply don't find it that necessary. If you want to spread creep aggressively get an extra queen (I probably should do this, since it does help even if there's no split micro like in ZvT going on), because you'll need all your injects to drone up in the early game, which is super important. Plus ling muta is a style that really isn't that dependent on creep. So yea, you can and should do it and if you do get a 3rd queen for it (which is always nice vs stargate play anyways).
It may be a bit outdated by now, but from what I remember seeing a few months ago out of Losira/Nestea is that they get about 2 creep tumors down in the beginning with their first 2 queens. This creates a lull in their production where their money starts stacking up even with constant production, which allows them adequate funds to get their third hatch down around 30 supply. Those early tumors also help to connect your nat and third for quicker rally/queen assistance.
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I dunno if it's just me, but the first 3 replays, as well as the last one, can not be found. Could you possibly re-up them? Great guide btw, I've been looking for something to replace my now-defunct infestor style, and this seems like a strong style.
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On December 13 2011 16:25 Lobotomist wrote:
I dunno if it's just me, but the first 3 replays, as well as the last one, can not be found. Could you possibly re-up them? Great guide btw, I've been looking for something to replace my now-defunct infestor style, and this seems like a strong style.
Allow me to quote myself from the OP:
Note: It might occur that the link doesn't work the first time you click on it. You'll get an error message saying "Replay Not Found". Just try again and it will work at the 2nd or 3rd time. I have no idea what's up with that, I get the same message sometimes as well.
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Do you see any maps that favor this build or is it essentially map independent? Thanks for the great guide. Have a Happy Holidays.
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Watching the replays and such, it seems to me that Mutas are sort of 'countered' by a fast third. In all of the games, you deny the protoss' third with roach/ling. It appears, that to make mutas work, not only does protoss have to open in a way favorable to mutas (no bunch of phoenix, no blink, preferably robo), but you have to deny protoss' third with roach/ling before getting the muta tech out.
I mean, what do you think of that analysis decaf? I think the 'closer' games appear to be when protoss does get the third, but loses his army in the process, or does get the third, but only after being delayed uncomfortably, or does get the third, but loses tech or probes in the process.
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Generally: the larger the map the better it is for zerg, same goes for this style.
About taking a fast third: if you catch him doing that (which is fairly easy because you're free to spread your overlords) then your reaction should be to not make any units at all. Protoss is too good defensively and sacrificing your economy and hope to get his down won't end very well for you. Whenever I see the protoss player taking a fast third (like the game vs imakki) I immediatly turn all my larvae into drones and take my 5th and 6th geysers and get macro hatcheries and start expanding once my economy allows me to do so. Don't make any roaches, they're there to carry you safely into the midgame and when your opponent is being greedy there's no use playing safely. Just go straight to ling muta and harass him as much as you can, you will always find yourself in a spot where you're magic boxing his mineral line. Just be greedy yourself and skip roaches alltogether.
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^ That was very informative, I hadn't seen that game (was added later?).
Couldn't you also have denied P's third with roach/ling into speedroach ling? I suppose if any map protoss could stop mass roach is that map, easy third, but in general...
And secondly, did you see he was going fast third, maybe him working on the rocks? You had an overlord around there but wasn't sure if you saw him working rocks or not. But if you were wrong about him going third instead of mass gateway, you would've just died to a gateway timing (you went lair around 8:30, same time as gateway timings arrive, you had basically zero units).
Maybe if you just know protoss is going third, macro'ing and going straight into mutas is a good idea, but I think that in most cases, it's pretty much impossible to tell if protoss is doing that. You can tell things like double stargate, for example, by sacc'ing overlord and seeing nothing in the base, but you can't tell if he either has gateways in the corner or just is banking money for an expo.
I suppose if you truly know protoss is going third, and you see robo, then rushing mutas is good. I'm just not sure how your point of view in that game was, because you can't really know they are going fast third usually and will just die to mass gateway timings if you rush lair like that.
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Considering it was cross map, my lings didn't find any pylons and I saw him working on the rocks I was fairly certain he wouldn't try to allin me (units on rocks means no units out that help secure a pylon). If I had reacted like he was going to all in me I could have tried to deny his third and depending on the map/spawn locations and the situational micro I would have been able to do so or not - I think it's more likely I'm successful with it though but you have a better shot winning the game when you go for the macro game like I did.
And well, there's always the possibilty of hidden tech or gates. You'll never be able to account for that.
You don't even need to see a robo, mutas even crush 1stargate play and fare well vs 2 stargate play if it hasn't been around for too long. The proper response is upraded blink stalkers with storm support.
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Ah okay. You were able to confirm him going for a third because of him working the rocks. So what do you think if protoss opens some sort of gateway pressure, then takes a more 'normal' third afterwards - do you use the roaches and lings you made, and make a few more to deny the third, or do you straight away go for mutas and macro instead? I feel like 3 base protoss, even as a 5 base zerg, is much harder to deal with than 2 base protoss as a 3 base zerg. 3 base is sort of the tipping point I feel, since you can hold any 2 base protoss with hatch tech, but 3 base protoss takes either maxed out lair tech remaxing over and over, or hive tech - so, that's why I prefer going roach/ling. I suppose you can take a middle ground with it too, and I probably do, but when p takes their third is usually when they are most vulnerable, if you can't deny the third you can at least kill a bunch of units. You saw how small that guy's army was (him moving out was really stupid, especially considering he didn't see your third so naturally thought you were on 2 base).
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If he does a push before taking a third you'll obviously need to defend that. If you have a lot of units left over after that fight you can always try to deny/delay his third by being annoying with your left over units. While you wait for your spire to finish you can also make a bunch of zerglings to help doing that, but I wouldn't make any more roaches at that point. Roaches cost gas and we want that gas for out mutalisks, lings are always welcome - you can toss em away to free up supply once you have some gas banked until you're at like 50 mutas. The only time I do make roaches again is when I triggered an allin due to my constand harassment and he got a couple of archons in his army to help deal with that (I'll have mass spines as well though).
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what do you do against 2stargate?
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Russian Federation8 Posts
Hey OP, just happened to come across this thread after just losing a game using a somewhat similar strategy, I'm hoping I could get some advice on what I could have done to play this game out better?
Replay: http://drop.sc/80200
Thanks.
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On December 28 2011 04:37 Michaels wrote:
what do you do against 2stargate?
Tbh I don't know the correct response to the double stargate, because I feel like there's no unit that counters it. If you go hydras and you don't manage to save your third and do a signifcant amount of damage with em you're obviously dead. On some maps it's actually really hard to save your third (like on shak), especially if they choose to warp in a bunch of zealots. Dealing with double stargate is somewhat out of place in this guide though since I feel like it's kind of all in (although it's actually kinda not) and mutas aren't the right choice for several reasons. It takes way too long for the spire to finish and you will most likely lose it. By the time the first units he made out of the stargates hit it's impossible to tell if he continues to do so or if he's quickly transitioning into colossi or an all in. The only two situations I could imagine where a spire still is possible is when he only makes voidrays (but then you will most likely lose it or take serious amounts of damage) or if he's making like only 6 phoenixes and then transitions into colossi (but that's not really scoutable).
The correct response imo is not losing your third, getting hydras, defend with them and trying to get rid of them as fast as possible or they will make you lose the game.
@LiZaRd:
Create a [H] thread please.
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I am interested in the replays, but i can't download them... Can you reupload the replays?
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EPT
