Disclaimer: This guide is directed towards diamond+ players. If you're looking for fundamentals read this guide instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096 Special thanks to KangaRuthless for being awesome and casting my replays! Make sure to check out his channel ( http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless ) and subscribe! He does a real good job at casting and deserves some attention =).
Introduction: Hey, this is decaf again ~~ Some of you _might_ know me from the other two guides I wrote way back. + Show Spoiler +
Usually I'm top 8 masters on EU, right now I'm slumping a bit because I haven't gotten to play a whole lot so don't read too much into that, I'll be writing a guide instead~~
So, this is my guide about my rather new ZvP style. After the infestor nerf in ZvP I thought they were quite useless so I started fooling around with other stuff. Hydras, baneling drops, aggressive builds, but nothing seemed to work quite well till I finally got to roach ling muta. ZvP is my strongest matchup by far right now and I don't lose unless my opponent manages to hide tech or warpgates and I don't socut it in time.
That being said I'll start off. Basic Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
Against FFE: Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14).
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) ~32 3rd hatchery @~6min double gas in main @~7min evo chamber, roach warren @~8:45min 3rd, 4th gas gas spent on: ling speed->+1ranged attack->lair->roach speed (with as many roaches as you need mixed in) note: if I don't expect an all in I will take my 5th and 6th gas the second my 3rd finishes, if I do I wait till I defended it properly
Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build and I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though). If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off. Sac an overlord at 7:30 minutes to see what he's doing. Start making units at 8:30. If he does an all in and you haven't made any units by then you'll most likely lose. Even if your opponent does not all in it can be really good to make units, because you will be able to deny his third.
Against 1gate/3gate FE:
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch gas when pool is done 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) @100gas: ling speed @ 24gas: evo chamber @100gas: +1ranged attack @100gas: lair, 2nd gas Get the roach warren in time to have roaches ready at the 8minute mark Add 3rd and 4th gas when you reach 2 base saturation
I open this build on maps where I know he's not going for an FFE or where it's really unlikely. If I scout him doing the unexpected and go for a fast forge expand my reaction is to cancel the gas geyser or if I scout him last to simply not mine from it and continue with my vs FFE build. Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair and my third and fourth gas when I have 2 base saturation (around the time when I'm taking my third). Sac an overlord at ~6minutes to scout what he's doing. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.
What I spend my gas on: Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy. For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base. If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade for flying units and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.
Scouting One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it. Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).
When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't recommend it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden. After an all-in: If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game
Realizing he's going to take a third: If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend off his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus.
Robo tech: Make mutas. Simple as that, unless he goes for a real fast robo bay and will do some kind of 2-3 colossi push. But this is always off of an FFE and if you scout with an overseer you'll see it. Just get corruptors instead of hydras and prepare for the all in. The other case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas.
Stargate tech: This one is tricky. Against 1 stargate it really depends on what he's doing. If he's really heavy on the vrays you can get mutas to clean em all up but you will have to rely on your spores/queens for a long time. Against 1 stargate pumping vrays I usually defend like that. If he instead goes very phoenix heavy it's iffy. You can go mutas if you have a ton of ressources saved up and you're sure to overpower his phoenix count, if you don't you're better off getting hydras. Most players tend to get like 4 to 5 phoenixes and then switch to robo tech, in that situation it's fine to make mutas as well. I don't really recommend using mutas unless you're sure your opponent quickly switches to robo tech. Against 2 stargates you must not build mutas. It's an all in and mutas don't work vs any kind of all in.
Your main goal is to prevent his third base. With this style I do double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade. You can also try to catch parts of his army off guard, because he will spread his army to deal with the mutas properly.
Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin: You're able to deny his third: If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing. You're not able to deny his third: On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously. If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.
Basically this whole build revolves around wearing your opponent down - and mutas do a damn good job at it. The roaches' sole purpose is to carry you safely to the midgame, after that you're free to abuse the ability you gain from muta ling. Keep upgrading and if you can't fight the opposing army go for a basetrade and take the whole map.
Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough. I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.
With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much? It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.
On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down? It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
Do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade? The longer the game goes, the more mutas and thus lings I will add to the composition. The roaches' sole purpose is to keep me alive throughout the mid-game. Usually I'll have 2 evo chambers upgrading melee and carapace upgrades so lings (ultras, broodlings) will be even stronger. I don't think I ever upgraded the +2 ranged attacks upgrade with this style. In case of a basetrade you will need the mobility thus slowly getting rid of the roaches is a good idea. With this style I don't really transition into anything else, I just keep upgrading. If your army is too weak to fight the opponent's go for a basetrade.
Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? The reason why I get my +1 before lair is because all my timings are based on my lair timing. This is something I personally found out and it works really well for me. First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster. Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it. As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades.
http://drop.sc/86186 - SFTO|GruntT ~#220 on ladder, playing vs one base into expansion http://drop.sc/86185 - GM toss (tinToss), scouts spire and tries to counterreact on TD cross (no mutas were made) http://drop.sc/86184 - GM toss (imakki), taldarim cross, gets 3 bases up http://drop.sc/86183 - opp going for DT into archon immortal while taking a 3rd http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)
If you like this cast go ahead and check out his channel http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless and don't forget to subscribe, because his casting is actually really good :>
This looks pretty interesting and the guide is really well written,
will watch the replays later but I have a few questions.
when do you feel is a good time to get your 3rd/4th, i would imagine to get your 3rd when your mutas are out, or if you hold the 2 base push. but this could be wrong.
On October 21 2011 17:32 jtixs wrote: when do you feel is a good time to get your 3rd/4th, i would imagine to get your 3rd when your mutas are out, or if you hold the 2 base push. but this could be wrong.
(or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark.
Seems to be 3rd at 5 minutes vs forge expand, 8 or 9 or so vs 1-3 gate expand (probably depending on whether or not it was 1 or 3 gate expand).
This guide is exactly where I want it to be. It is not a gimmicky build so there's nothing new or fancy about it, if you don't like standard play go read a different guide. I intentionally didn't put in an overload of information because there already is guides that do that, like the Art of ZvP thread by Zerg~Legend. It's a guide directed towards people struggling in the matchup and looking for standard play. I have purposely not included any kind of cheesy play by the protoss player because it's simply out of place.
I've listed all essential timings and if you feel it's not enough go ahead and read other guides like the one I already mentioned. It is useless to post everything all over again if it has already been written down and at that point I'd just be stealing from someone.
I expect my readership to be smart about what they do anyways, so I'm not going to state the obvious.
And for the record, an opening that transitions into a composition while discussing certain contingencies equals a guide.
I've been thinking about doing something like this, not the build since i open 14 pool 16 hatch in ZvP, but typically against an FFE you get to the 3 base roach ling, after that I usually transition into baneling drops but I wondered if getting mutas instead would be viable. The spire only costs as much as the drop tech alone and on 6 gas you can get a fair share of mutas out. I've never seen pro zergs do it though, against stargate openers it might be even better than robo because you can get the 2-3 corrupters needed to deny the phoenix and then swarm mutas, plus you can dump minerals into extra lings since colossi will be delayed. I'll give it a try
I've been struggling with ZvP a lot lately due to my wide variety of timing pushes and all ins failing even though I get economic advantages through hatch first openings against forge first and even nexus first builds. So I have a lot of questions lined up for you.
1. When you have mapcontrol with the mutalisks, do you take an agressive fourth and fifth and tech to hive or do you stay on lair tech?
2. When do you take your third and fourth gasses so you can have a continious flood of roaches coming out? I haven't played around with that Nestea opening but by now I'm willing to try anything out.
3. With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much?
4. Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough.
5. Say you scout a stargate, what means do you use to ensure that you get mapcontrol without committing to a unit like the mutalisk that is risky to use against phoenixes? Should you go for a hydralisk/infestor timing off of 3 base or does that open you up too much for a collosus techswitch?
6. On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down?
7. Against a blink stalker timing, do you just ditch this whole strategy alltogether and go for infestor play regardless?
8. Air attack/ carapace upgrades, yes or no and when?
9. Would you be willing to collect more ZvP replays and post them in this thread?
Wow, that's quite a bunch of quetions and it looks like ZvP is not as clear to some people as I thought it would be. I got school in like an hour so I'm not sure if I got the time to update the thread right now, but I will definitely do a massive update when I get home.
Thanks for the quick answers! There were definitely a couple of new things in here for me. Especially the second overlord being able to just spread out to the map sooner for easier scouting. Very interresting!
Will be using this opening for my next couple of games, thanks again!
I watched both replays and 12 pool opening was bad, because vs non FE build you won't do any damage, and vs. FE the cannon is going to be in time.. Is it only to kill nexus first opponent?
Also roach muta unit composition is very supply inefficient, because both roaches and mutas do very little damage and take a lot of supply.
But overall you could just as well get drops and for the price of mutas make drops into opponents base and it would be the same thing.
And if the map is with 3rd easy to defend you should lose vs. strong colossus push I think cause muta won't really help in direct battle.
Mutas are incredibly supply efficient, roaches aren't though. If you go heavier roaches you will have less mutas at some point. This comp is definitely more supply efficient then let's say heavy roach compositions are.
The 12 pool is an extremely safe opening while you don't sacrifice a lot of economy. Sure, a hatch first is a little better, but I wouldn't take the risk. You also have to take into consideration that you get your first round of larvae much earlier so it might even be better, I'm not sure - no one has made charts on it. The fact that nestea uses this opening should be enough varification anyways.
And mutas are quite strong in battles if supported by roach ling. I don't think it's the composition's fault if you lose to such a colossus attack rather than your own.
Will be using this opening for my next couple of games, thanks again!
Great build and breakdown! I use 11 pool 18 hatch for every T or P and still use a 11pool roach opener vs Z. 12 is a nice change of pace and I like the larvae not being idle. NICE POST!
On October 21 2011 22:36 Alpina wrote: I think that's July style ZvP =)
I watched both replays and 12 pool opening was bad, because vs non FE build you won't do any damage, and vs. FE the cannon is going to be in time.. Is it only to kill nexus first opponent?
Also roach muta unit composition is very supply inefficient, because both roaches and mutas do very little damage and take a lot of supply.
But overall you could just as well get drops and for the price of mutas make drops into opponents base and it would be the same thing.
And if the map is with 3rd easy to defend you should lose vs. strong colossus push I think cause muta won't really help in direct battle.
Drops are very hard to poke with as losing units/OLs is highly likely versus just flying mutas in and out maintaining map control. Having drops doesn't really give you map control, it's more of a viable option of having map control.
thanks for info, seems like a good strat for me to try as i have been having trouble against P. also, i really like this advice:
[B] but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
alot of times i over commit to something cuz i have it in my head that thats what i'm going to do, i need to learn to changes things based on the the situation at hand.
This is a good guide and it's pretty much the style that should be played now with some of the early robo warp prism builds. As zergs are finding out, it's extremely difficult to defend against the multi prong warp prism attacks without muta.
The guide is correct in stating that defending the 6-7 gate is first and foremost and then transitioning to muta when they are going earlier robo (with less gateways) or taking early 3rd. The muta, roach, ling gives you the ability to base trade too against protoss (requires a lot of spines though). And as long as you engage with your ground units right before the mutas go in, the +1 or +2 air attack with the glade damage can wreck even stalker collossi armies.
One thing worth mentioning too is once they go archon or mass phoenix you have to transition to hive.tech with infestor, but alot of the time you will just win outright with muta ling roach.
On October 21 2011 17:26 decaf wrote: Disclaimer: This guide is directed towards diamond+ players. If you're looking for fundamentals read this guide instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096 Introduction: Hey, this is decaf again ~~ Some of you _might_ know me from the other two guides I wrote way back. + Show Spoiler +
Usually I'm top 8 masters on EU, right now I'm slumping a bit because I haven't gotten to play a whole lot so don't read too much into that, I'll be writing a guide instead~~
So, this is my guide about my rather new ZvP style. After the infestor nerf in ZvP I thought they were quite useless so I started fooling around with other stuff. Hydras, baneling drops, aggressive builds, but nothing seemed to work quite well till I finally got to roach ling muta. ZvP is my strongest matchup by far right now and I don't lose unless my opponent manages to hide tech or warpgates and I don't socut it in time.
That being said I'll start off. Basic Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=250539 Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though). If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off. Personally I feel it's always good to play a style that is meant to counter a 7gate all in, because if he doesn't all in you will have enough stuff to deny his third forever and ifhe does you're prepared. You'll always be ahead economically as well. Sac an overlord at 7 minutes. Start making units at 8:30.
Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair. Sac an overlord at ~6minutes. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.
Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy. For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base. If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.
One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it. Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).
When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't suggest it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden. After an all-in: If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game Realizing he's going to take a third: If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend of his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus. Robo tech: Make mutas. Simple as that. The only case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas. Stargate tech: Against 1stargate pumping voidrays I think it's definitely a good idea to kill all the voidrays with mutas (after you defended with spores/queens). Against phoenixes it's kinda iffy. Most protoss don't build more than 4 or 5 of them so it should be fine. Vs 2 stargates it's not very wise to go for mutas (it's an all-in anyways).
With this style I be doing double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade.
Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin: You're able to deny his third: If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing. You're not able to deny his third: On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously. If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.
Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough. I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.
With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much? It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.
On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down? It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
I was just thinking of this composition as a reaction to the toss getting his third base up while I was in the car. Happy to see you tested it for me Time to ladder!
So I'm assuming for stargate builds it's something different? What do you do if the protoss manages to get his third and sits while building his deathball then moves out for a final push? Do you just base trade?
its funny, i've been doing that nestea opening as a slight stylistic difference from the 11 overpool 18 hatch, the 12/19 is simply more larvae efficient thereby safer in the early game. on large maps i've really liked using this composition in the past, almost infinite counterattacking options (map dependent ofc) and roaches are excellent for defending all-in's. i think a major point people are missing is that if you scout and see that you really don't need roaches but you've put the warren down already, oh well. you'll use it later, its not a huge investment at the point in the game. and even better, now you get to have mutas faster, as almost every strategy that doesn't favor roach play will favor mutas (dbl stargate withstanding)
Against stargates you can play this style as well since 1 stargate isn't really enough to keep up with the muta production, especially if he was getting vrays. If you feel like you won't be able to overpower his stargate production simply get more roach ling and go kill him.
Ideally he shouldn't be able to get his third up in the first place unless the map is really favoring his third base position like shattered temple. As mentioned in the thread you can try to minimize his forces by constat harassment or you can try to switch to broodlord infestor with a ton of spines (don't really recommend that because you already invested so much into your mutas) or place a ton of spines and go for a basetrade where it will be like 3 bases vs 7 to 8.
Unfortunately I haven't saved any of the basetrade games I played so I'm short on replays. I will add some as I go.
On October 24 2011 03:20 decaf wrote: Against stargates you can play this style as well since 1 stargate isn't really enough to keep up with the muta production, especially if he was getting vrays. If you feel like you won't be able to overpower his stargate production simply get more roach ling and go kill him.
Ideally he shouldn't be able to get his third up in the first place unless the map is really favoring his third base position like shattered temple. As mentioned in the thread you can try to minimize his forces by constat harassment or you can try to switch to broodlord infestor with a ton of spines (don't really recommend that because you already invested so much into your mutas) or place a ton of spines and go for a basetrade where it will be like 3 bases vs 7 to 8.
Unfortunately I haven't saved any of the basetrade games I played so I'm short on replays. I will add some as I go.
Ok so I tried this style out, and I like it very much. Problem for me is sometimes I can't deny the third. For example on antiga shipyard, where the 3rd is really close, I can't deny the third without taking heavy losses, also I'm kinda new to this style. Basically in that game I was on 5 base, banking mins, while I killed like 40 probes and he was on 3 base. My main problem is I didn't know how to transition. Usually I get broodlord infestor roach which just rolls the protoss, but from muta ling roach, it's kinda an awkward transition. I got some baneling drops with roaches and muta and he just did his herp derp a move push out with some colossus and stalkers and just won. Obviously, I want to be able to prepare for situations where I cant stop his third. So what is your transition to the late game?
Haven't really gotten to the need of transitioning out of it to be honest. If oyu bust down the rocks leading to his third in antiga he will have to react to it, so you're pretty much free to fly your mutas into his main and wreck his economy, if he pulls all his stalkers into the main simply kill off the rest of his army. You have to abuse the mobility of your army. I just keep massing mutas and keep upgrading, in some games I would reach like 50 mutas and take the whole map so I will have an easy win when it comes to a basetrade. I think transitioning into broodlord might be the best choice though, becaus you're already upgrading your mutas and your lings. If he goes for heavy AA stuff get ultras instead. I will see if I got some good replays where the opponent got his third up.
edit: Here I got a replay on Antiga where the opponent manages to get his third up, but gets killed shortly afterwards. All the games where he managed to get his third up where basetrades with constant harass thourghtout the whole game iirc. When I get to play some more and face better opponents again I'll deliver a handful of replays. http://replayfu.com/r/CFCx9
On October 24 2011 06:08 Macpo wrote: Hi decaf, I have a question: do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade?
Answered in the user submitted questions section, ty.
Uploaded a replay vs an EU GM toss. I saw he was going for a third so I made a spire, he scouted it quickly and reacted with double stargate, blink, HT so I did not make any mutas at all. We play on TD cross positions. Although I didn't make mutas I had the intention to. Just showcasin that you don't have to make mutas just because you made a spire.
This is a good guide, and has been my go-to strat for ZvP for quite awhile. Roach/ling is so strong at holding off 2 base pushes, and you have so much gas left with 3 bases worth that mutas just seem like a natural transition. I switched to P for awhile recently for fun and got so many free wins from zergs who try to open up straight into ling/muta. It just dies so easily to 2 base gateway timings. More Zergs need to open up the way detailed in this guide.
On October 26 2011 08:39 Whole wrote: I don't know if it is just me, but the links say "replay not found."
The replaysite doesn't work one out of 3 times when you click on it, dunno why. If it doesn't work for you the first time just try to open the link again, it will work eventually. No idea what's up with that, but I get those error messages as well, try it again and there you go.
kk thank you. I didn't realize how bad the infestor nerf was until my 5 early Infestors (with Roach/Ling support) weren't doing jackshit vs a 2 base all-in.
Alright, added 2 more replays. One vs a GM toss ( http://replayfu.com/r/KJBcJr ) who went for a standard build including a third base on tal'darim cross positions and one vs some protoss ( http://replayfu.com/r/m94Tcd ) who went for DTs into archon immortal (no all in).
I even had a game vs a guy going for double stargate and I was barely able to overcome his all in after he lost his eco, but replayfu doesn't like that replay for some reason :/ I still don't recomment going mutas vs it though (although I did). In another game a protoss was blindly cannonrushing me and it failed hard although I didn't even scout it due to my 12pool. Just proving that it indeed is a very safe build. Enjoy.
In my experience, this build doesn't seem to work against someone stalker-heavy (I mean REALLY stalker heavy, like less than 10 sentries/zealots). If they're just massing stalkers, should you just go standard roach-hydra? Archons aren't fun either.
BTW, I'm just high plat, so I might be doing something wrong, like not harassing well or trying to engage directly.
Also (again, might be bad macro), there seems to be a massive mineral surplus. Should one just mass spines both as a mineral dump and to free up supply when you already have a good econ?
I think that's a platinum league problem. If your only response to mutas is stalkers, which suck vs roaches, lings and mutas then you're going to lose that game. I suggest watching some of the replays. Unless it's an all in, which crushes muta play, you should be very well off vs that. Against all ins you cam make hydras though, they're _great_ vs all ins, but lose you any game that goes on for any longer. And you have to magix box the archons just like you do with thors.
For the mineral surplus I recommend building macro hatcheries and expansions as well as lings. I don't know about your injects but mine tend to be perfect most of the time very deep into the game so I don't really have that problem. You can also mass spines if you feel like it.
Really feel this is the future of how to play ZvP (until HOTS at least), I tried a variation of the style that I presumed had the same goal but really struggled with the applying pressure because of the lack of an eco / gas advantage to create the scary muta flock. Following this more closely has improved my style pretty damn well.
On October 31 2011 09:45 Rigorous wrote: Masters toss here. Colossus and HT tech destroy this. One bad engagement from zerg, and its gg.
How is a toss player going to get HT, Collossus tech and be able to make gateway units and upgrades 15 minutes in the game? By the time Toss has that Zerg should be getting Ultras by then.
Also the guide specifically stated to avoid direct engagements with the army unless it's unavoidable. .
On October 31 2011 09:45 Rigorous wrote: Masters toss here. Colossus and HT tech destroy this. One bad engagement from zerg, and its gg.
How is a toss player going to get HT, Collossus tech and be able to make gateway units and upgrades 15 minutes in the game? By the time Toss has that Zerg should be getting Ultras by then.
Also the guide specifically stated to avoid direct engagements with the army unless it's unavoidable. .
One thing i'll never understand is when going muta's why don't you just go broodlords instead of ultra's (which in general toss can counter very very easily...). I have never understood why you would want to go ultra's when you have the spire already, you have muta's why not just add broodlords into the mix? Thats what I do and I personally find it much more effective then ultra's xD.
But off of 3 bases a toss can get both at a decent time but templar should be the main focus and adding in colossi later vs muta builds imo.
After your post I have been using more mutalisks. Your guide makes more sense after you played this style though . Mutalisks should only be made after you stop a timing or when you see P takes his third. Randomly starting mutalisks never works.
It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed.
Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? I prefer going lair first, I get my roach speed faster and I can get a fast overseer. Only after scouting my opponent I start upgrading accordingly. Sometimes you can even get fast burrow and really destroy sentry pushes. I feel that there is no risk in getting that lair before +1, and that lair gives you a bigger potential advantage. Is there a timing that you defend with your +1?
Free funny story: yesterday I played my first match for season 4, it was against a P who massed blink stalkers after a sentry push that did no damage but I couldn't kill any sentries as well, we went for a basetrade and it resulted in a tie. We killed each others last building in the exact same second.
On October 31 2011 17:40 Koshi wrote: After your post I have been using more mutalisks. Your guide makes more sense after you played this style though . Mutalisks should only be made after you stop a timing or when you see P takes his third. Randomly starting mutalisks never works.
It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed.
Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? I prefer going lair first, I get my roach speed faster and I can get a fast overseer. Only after scouting my opponent I start upgrading accordingly. Sometimes you can even get fast burrow and really destroy sentry pushes. I feel that there is no risk in getting that lair before +1, and that lair gives you a bigger potential advantage. Is there a timing that you defend with your +1?
[/u]
I can't answer for him but for myself getting that lair later makes it so that you can have more drones (not because of the difference in cost from +1 and lair but because of the cost of the researches and buildings you get up once lair is done) and you don't really need lair that early, you should know what he's doing and you only need a spore for detection. I get my +1 melee just in time for 6-7 gates, it helps a lot against them lings shred sentries and stalkers, and from 3 hatches you can flood roaches and lings since you have more drones then if you went for an earlier lair. Basically it's delaying tech for more economy/production, both styles are fine and have their weaknesses.
The reason why I get my +1 before lair is because all my timings are based on my lair timing. This is something I personally found out and it works really well for me. First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster. Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it.
I'll add this to the user submitted questions section, thanks. As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades.
I will change my BO to +1 ranged before lair. I need a good gameplan against Protoss, which is my weakest matchup by far. Especially when they do 1 base timings and early 2 base timings I am extremely vulnerable. Your BO is easy to remember/execute. Lair after 300 gas and then a second geyser. 3rd and 4th geyser when 2 bases are saturated.
If you have time. Could you add 1 more paragraph to your guide, what you do while waiting for the moment mutalisks are an option? In my opinion building a spire really doesn't work if your opponent hasn't attacked you yet, or when he does a "late" expand on 3 gates. These moments are difficult when mutalisks are in my head: 1) Normal 3gate expand around minute 6:00 with sentries. Q: Do you make those 20 lings around minute 5:20 to denie/delay the third? Or do you wait and try to crush the first poke with sentries/gateway on a superior economy? Or just scare that first poke away? 2) FFE, I get my third around minute 5. I produce units around minute 7:30, and the Protoss just stays in his base, and I don't know when he will move out. Do I play Ling/Roach/Corrupter get 4th and hive? What if he takes his third very late, but still turtles. No mutalisks this game? 3) What is your gameplan after you just killed/scared away 3DTs around the 6:50 minute mark with your sporecrawler? Because this gets followed up with mass speed zealot + archon a lot.
Against 3gate expand making a bunch of zerglings doesn't do anything at all, I feel it only works vs 1gate expand. Most of the time I will get 1 or 2 spines in case he does a high sentry 3gate expand timing push after he expanded, spines help oh so much vs that. Producing units at 7:30 is way too early, 8:30 is the way to go (vs FFE). You should always morph an overseer anyways, it doesn't really cost anything and it gives you so great scouting. If the protoss player doesn't move out for some reason take the time to get 3 base saturation and then make further units after that. If the protoss never gets a third your 3 base eco will be enough to deal with everything he got. You cannot really harass though, because 2 base doesn't spread him out at all, I suggest throwing waves of units at him to slowly wear him down (don't lose your mutas though). If he does take a very late third he's doing a very bad build that doesn't do anything specifically well I feel, from that point you should be able to harass him quite well. The suggestion of making units at 8:30 is for people who are unsure what they are up against. If you know for a fact that he's not going to move out just add 15 more drones before making any units and throw down a spire immediately. I think you might be getting the spire too early. Only do it when you're safe. Most of the time that's the case when you secured your third. You have to play this build a couple of times to get a feeling for that. Against DTs I usually defend it, macro up a little bit, get mutas, do some economic damage and then move in for the kill. Most of the time the protoss will just leave when he realizes he hasn't done enough damage with it. You'll find a replay vs DT play in the OP.
Just make sure to watch some of the replays displaying the situations you have problems with and more importantly play a couple of games with this build. You'll get a grip on it as your experience grow with it.
What I've discovered is that if I get roaches up and a reasonably timed third, I can just get a macro hatch and go for 4queen4hatch larvae production so I can flood with insane amounts of zerglings quickly if an attack is coming in. After those hatches I put down the spire and incase I need to build a lot of zerglings I collect enough gas for the mutalisks. If I see a forge upgrading I'll get a +1 carapace upgrade instead of a +1 range so I can make sure the zerglings survive for long enough.
I've finally nailed a good ZvP midgame that can move onto the lategame that I lacked for so long, thank you so much.
Muta's are awesome in the current ZvP which is mostly quick 3rd against FFE. If they decide to not go for an all-in but a 3rd base instead then a batch of muta's (about 7-8) is insanely good. Gives instant map control and does lots of damage on average, muta's mixed with corruptors are a fine counter to colossi as well.
Muta's are basically the reason I don't like robo first builds too much, not enough pressure and not enough AA when doing that, giving too big a oppurtunity for muta. I don't advise going muta against a stargate opener though, already having the stargate out makes getting phoenix really easy and once phoenix are out muta kind of lose their power. Sure a batch of muta's can temporarily gain map control and do good damage but overall often not worth it against a stargate i think.
Hey man thanks for posting this. I've thought about using mutas before but couldnt really hit a timing to be effective with it. This showed me a different point of view in going against FFE.
One question, how do you deal with early void rays or phoenix? i always have trouble with VRs denying third and also phoenix harass.
Very nice guide. I've been trying to incorporate MUTS in ZvP & this is exactly what I was looking for! Thanks for the contribution.
so do you ever incorporate Infestors at all to to slow down Blinks or don't bother?
On a different note I almost died laughing when you made the zerglings do a break dance twist at the end of the game while playing against a very rude 'imakki' (what a loser!). That was hilarious. did you do that on purpose?
Finally added a replay featuring stargate play! http://replayfu.com/r/5wjqcp In this case I'm defending with mutas because I had so many ressources banked up that there was no way he would be able to overpower my muta count (I build 17 simultaneously). Most protosses go for 1 stargate, get 1vray and a couple of phoenixes and transition into colossi, which would be really good vs hydra play, but loses quite hard vs muta play. Note how I covered my spire with overlords to deny scouting. I think defending with queens/spores and some spines and roaches if he addes gateway units to his little push is totally fine vs just 1 stargate.
@kushm4sta: answered in the OP @madzumo: I don't use infestors anymore in ZvP
-You repeat yourself a little bit -(minor)You contradict yourself when talking about his early lings being active (you said it, then you went back on what you said when you saw a ling was idle). It's fine, relax! His lings WERE being active, what you said was definitely correct, one was just idle for a moment. Don't worry about being "hyper" accurate, as contradicting yourself hurts your credibility. -You didn't focus much on decaf's build order. This is probably the bigger point as the cast (seems to be) intended to demonstrate decaf's build and style of play, but many important parts of the build you didn't cover - what time we take our gas; when we take our evo chamber; when we start lair; when do we start our roach warren, when do we take more geysers, when should we take our third. Do we need a macro hatch? You did not talk about any of these things, so I had to go back through the cast to note these things myself.
Otherwise great, I enjoyed it quite a bit. =) I found it pretty useful as my ZvP feels horrible, and I've been looking for something just like this style of play to learn.
-You repeat yourself a little bit -(minor)You contradict yourself when talking about his early lings being active (you said it, then you went back on what you said when you saw a ling was idle). It's fine, relax! His lings WERE being active, what you said was definitely correct, one was just idle for a moment. Don't worry about being "hyper" accurate, as contradicting yourself hurts your credibility. -You didn't focus much on decaf's build order. This is probably the bigger point as the cast (seems to be) intended to demonstrate decaf's build and style of play, but many important parts of the build you didn't cover - what time we take our gas; when we take our evo chamber; when we start lair; when do we start our roach warren, when do we take more geysers, when should we take our third. Do we need a macro hatch? You did not talk about any of these things, so I had to go back through the cast to note these things myself.
Otherwise great, I enjoyed it quite a bit. =) I found it pretty useful as my ZvP feels horrible, and I've been looking for something just like this style of play to learn.
That's some solid feedback! I feel like decaf's timings on Roach Warren/Evo are less about "make X at 45 supply" and more like "because I am playing on X map and my opponent is doing Y, I can make my Roach Warren and Evo Chamber around this time." As a rule of thumb, it would make sense to build the Roach Warren + Evo at around 40ish supply, and if the map is larger, then maybe delay for a few more Drones. It all has to do with scouting, map size, and spawning locations. However, I'll take this into account and try to touch on this more in the next few casts.
Also, I've noticed that I have a tendency to repeat myself. It would be helpful for me to relax more while casting and have more of a "script" to follow than to wing it like I usually do
Again, thanks for the feedback!
By the way, Game 2 is up, and I'll be re-casting games 4&5 so I can focus more on things like the build order and what the spawning locations/map mean for the build.
Again, really well done. Looking forward to finally seeing me beat GMs :> One thing I have to mention though is that some of the reasons you give for what I do are not necessarily correct from my point of view. For instance the size of a map does not really matter when playing protoss due to the warpfate mechanic. When I build my extractor although I haven't scouted anything it's because I don't know if he FFEd or not. Yes, on taldarim I won't build that extractor because it's very likely that he's going to do so, but on meta for instance I will build htat extractor just in case so I get it up eariler and if I scout him doing an FFE then I will cancel it or simply not mine from it. You could also pay some attention to me spreading out the first 2 of my overlords, because the 12 pool is so early that I don't really need to be safe in that kind of way. My gas timings and evo chamber roach timings should always be the same (sometimes I'm a little bit sloppy though), unless something crazy happened. In the game on metalopolis I scouted with my overlord because his sentry count was so low and I found the amount of buildings placed at his natural to be weird. So I guess my only criticism is improving your gameknowledge a little bit (esp since it's meant to be for a guide), rest is really good. I don't have any demands though, because you do it basically for free and I really like what you do. Keep up the good work, mate, looking forward to seeing the GM replays and thank you very much once again :3
edit: also, if someone has any questions regarding my build feel free to ask =) (unless it's in the OP, then I won't reply) and feel free to share your experience with this build, because I'm curious to see how it works out for you and if I have been helpful and how I can improve the guide
@decaf: I made a mistake in trying to analyze these videos without asking you why you did certain things. Since I don't like having videos up that are factually incorrect, I'm going to redo Metalopolis and Tal Darim (and the final game, as I'm not satisfied with it!) so that the errors are not current in the analysis. I'll make a note for the Nerazim Crypt game, but because the decision making was based off of what you had scouted and your ability to mess up his build with those Lings, I don't feel like it needs to be completely redone; I'll just make a note in the comments. Anyways, apologies for not going to you first to hear your opinions on the matter and hopefully the revamped VODs will be more factual/accurate.
I don't think you really need to redo them. They're fine. It's not like they're the only source to help people, if someone really wants to know how to play this build he/she will read this guide and download some of the replays. I think you will get the idea of why I do certain things when you play this build several times. But it's your choice and I find them already pretty good =) If you feel like responding to this send me a PM so we can keep this guide on topic. Best regards.
Hi, I have a question. I have always gone fast third in ZvP, but recently I've been more aggressively making ling/roaches in the early game to deny the third and hold 6 gates (i suppose I know the build better) and then going mutas, I suppose a little like this.
I have 4 questions though:
1. When should you not go mutas? You talk a bit about when to do it, and it's very helpful, but you didn't address the following: - Mass gateways (maybe a 7 gate that isn't all-in, as he doesnt cut probes) - Blink Tech - High Templar Tech (i dont know, maybe something goofy like archons or something, just saying).
I was also wondering, what if they go double stargate and you hold the all-in, and they transition into double robo deathball or something of the sort. What if after beign held up, they don't make phoenixes but just void rays from those 2 stargates and maybe add on colossi for deathball or just lots of gateways for whatever. I'm aware a good response to this would be mass corruptor/speedbane (no sentries) but just wondering how you think mutas would do, if they 'had' 2 stargates but were maybe no longer prioritizing them, like especially if they tack on robos.
2. The base trade.
I am totally... newb, I suppose, at the whole base trade scenario. When first doing this style, I think there were even a few games I could have solidly won if I just base traded, and today I did my first base trade with mass muta. It was clear he had no chance, but I mean he did kill every hatch of mine and I only had extractors everywhere (i had so many lings and mutas though that no building of his would survive, but you know, base trades are still scary).
When should you not base trade? If protoss pushes out, should you just always base trade when having 20+ mutas? When can you lose in the base trade? What should be your priorities?
When should you simply just fight the opponent? As in what compositions may or may not be better, etc.
3. Motherships. Wtf do you do against motherships. Vortexing mutas is such a pain in the ass, but yet you have to kill it somehow.
4. When, or do you at all, ever tech up? When do you stop making mutas and 'move on'? Or do you just always get 20+ mutas and go for the base trade because it always works? If you do eventually 'move on', what do you recommend? Do you recommend supplementing the mutas, maybe going straight for ultras? Or do you just do a good 'solid' go-to composition (maybe for some it's roach/hydra, for me it's roach/banelingrain/infestor, for destiny it was ling/infestor lol).
Thanks. I thoroughly enjoyed your guide, and it has helped me.
1. If he doesn't cut probes he should have less units thus it's easier to hold, but still don't make any mutas. If you hold it without losing your third and then transition into mutas he's pretty muched screwed, because he doesn't have the tech necessary to deal with your mutas. If he doesn't allin he will at least do a push which needs to do damage, because he's not teching or expanding or doing something else. Blink is not enough of a reaction to counter mutas. First off he will be stuck in his base forever while you can expand and get more mutas and if he decides to move out your roach ling muta will simply crush his composition. High Templars are not too good vs mutas. You need a really good economy to get them going and it does take quite some times to tech to them. If you catch him being greedy while teching to HTs skip mutas and crush him with roach ling.
2. You should not basetrade when you can fight his army head on. Also, 20+ mutas sounds kinda low, I have ilke 40 mutas in every basetrade scenario, so maybe you should work on not losing them or macro better. My priority is killing his nexi first so I can see if he's building pylons near his army. Keep an eye on his probes and make sure no probe leaves the base. You should have a surplus of minerals when you basetrade so just pull all your drones to a safe area and keep building hatchers all over the map (even in his old main). If he wants to protect buildings he has to split up his army. Fighting the deathball can be a little difficult if he has archons and HTs as well as some upgraded blink stalkers.
3. Usually when my opponent goes motherships I have about 20 mutas the time it pops and simply kill it by focus firing. But maybe that was just my opponents being bad. I have no real solution to motherships and find them ridiculously overpowered vs zerg. Maybe you can go harass his base and try to catch the mothership off-guard, it's really slow. I haven't had problems with that though.
4. I never tech up, the only thing I do is get more mutas, get less roaches and get more upgrades as well as more bases. I don't think I've ever lost the basetrade vs toss so I think you don't really need to transition. I only get ultras when I feel like my opponent should have left the game a couple of minutes ago. Thanks for you questions, hope I helped.
1. If he doesn't cut probes he should have less units thus it's easier to hold, but still don't make any mutas. If you hold it without losing your third and then transition into mutas he's pretty muched screwed, because he doesn't have the tech necessary to deal with your mutas. If he doesn't allin he will at least do a push which needs to do damage, because he's not teching or expanding or doing something else.
I don't make a lair in ZvP when going fast third vs FFE until about 90+ supply, or 120+ if there's gateway pressure. If you lose the third or a bunch of drones or something like that, then yea the game is kind of lost already I'm not really worried about how to use mutas when I'm worried about how to survive when on hatch tech. I was just saying, like what if he got 6 gateways and just playing standard macro, maybe did some pressure but wasn't all-in, and then I held him off, would it be wise to get mutas. I guess your answer is yes though, thanks.
You should not basetrade when you can fight his army head on. Also, 20+ mutas sounds kinda low, I have ilke 40 mutas in every basetrade scenario, so maybe you should work on not losing them or macro better
Oh wow, I just assumed around 20-30 was enough. I'm usually maxed by the time I have about 20-30 mutas, getting 40 sounds wild. I guess you must be constantly be making spines, instead of making lings that take up supply like I am. Maybe I'm making too many roaches (i really don't make that much, just enough to hold his gateway early pressure and then I dont make any more really, rest of gas goes to mutas). Or maybe you just bank a shitton of minerals o_o
Fighting the deathball can be a little difficult if he has archons and HTs as well as some upgraded blink stalkers.
Do you recommend getting infestors if I see he's getting blink? Or should I not worry myself about that? Seeing that it's a problem, what exactly do you do about it? Or does that just make the game more interesting lol.
3. Usually when my opponent goes motherships I have about 20 mutas the time it pops and simply kill it by focus firing. But maybe that was just my opponents being bad. I have no real solution to motherships and find them ridiculously overpowered vs zerg. Maybe you can go harass his base and try to catch the mothership off-guard, it's really slow. I haven't had problems with that though.
I believe the experiences I had with it were maybe just situations I should've base traded in. They turtle on 3 base, get a mothership along with some huge deathball, and I can't do any damage with the mothership around, even as fast as mutas are they just cloak and recall everywhere in their turtled 3 bases, as if warp ins and blink and general p mobility was hard enough to deal with against someone stuck on a very tiny 3 bases that is small enough of an area to guard as is. It's really horrible when they attack you then recall when you try to base trade.
4. I never tech up, the only thing I do is get more mutas, get less roaches and get more upgrades as well as more bases. I don't think I've ever lost the basetrade vs toss so I think you don't really need to transition. I only get ultras when I feel like my opponent should have left the game a couple of minutes ago. Thanks for you questions, hope I helped.
Ah, very nice. That's very useful! So you basically transition into purely 2/2 melee and 2/2 air. Do you ever get an infestation pit or hive (and not just in games to 'finish off' a rude opponent who isn't leaving and already lost the game)? What about a second spire for upgrades?
Do you mass spines at all, and if you do, how do you do it? Do you ever lower your drone count from the 80ish count to maybe 50ish when it's very late game, to increase the ratio of mutas to workers in your army?
Also, do you ever get a baneling nest? I feel that getting baneling nest and baneling speed is extremely intuitive if you are going mass ling style, but just wondering what you felt about that seeing as how gas intensive banes are.
And final question: What do you lose against when doing this? What gives you problems? What do you think is the 'right' response from protoss to fight this, the correct 'counter' protoss can do, and what's the counter-counter for zerg to do in response to that?
moar muta?
edit: another question: When do you take your 5th and 6th gas? I find 4 gas from fast third more than enough gets gas for mutas, and if you have 5-6 gases you will have too much gas not enough minerals. I feel the 'sweet spot' where you balance the minerals and gas is like when you have 75+ drones, which means like 120+ supply at least. I was just wondering when you get those gas, as banking gas from 4 geysers when making lair when you aren't spending gas on anything (no roaches, no upgrades maybe? no infestors or anything though) should be enough to pop like 15-20 mutas when spire finishes. Or do you work on banking gas quick and early?
I don't make a lair in ZvP when going fast third vs FFE until about 90+ supply, or 120+ if there's gateway pressure.
I don't know about the supply when getting my lair vs FFE but I think it's much earlier, maybe you should stick to my timings and see how it works out and then judge which style to use.
Do you recommend getting infestors if I see he's getting blink? Or should I not worry myself about that? Seeing that it's a problem, what exactly do you do about it? Or does that just make the game more interesting lol.
No, I don't get infestors vs blink, because it's too expense and I don't really gain map control from it and I've already upgraded my air weapons and armor, it's really killing the flow. I will try to kill his templar archives, snipe templars and magic box archons. If he's really heavy on the archos I will start getting more raoches again.
Do you mass spines at all, and if you do, how do you do it? Do you ever lower your drone count from the 80ish count to maybe 50ish when it's very late game, to increase the ratio of mutas to workers in your army?
Yes, I do mass spine when I feel like he's going to push anytime soon, it's good for both basetrading and fighting his army ead on. As for the drone count I don't stick to 80 drones, I stick to an amount that assures me a greater income, whatever that may be.
I don't know about the supply when getting my lair vs FFE but I think it's much earlier, maybe you should stick to my timings and see how it works out and then judge which style to use.
Oh, I do quite well for myself. I just had questions in general about how to best utilize mutas, not about lair timings or when to get mutas. I suppose you could say I use nesteas style. I find if you go for lair early, you will straight up die to mass gateway early pushes, and you can't deny their third.
Sorry, for some reason I didn't see the questions in the bottom ~~ I only get Hive for my upgrades, getting double spire can be a pretty bold move depeding on when you do it. I don't think it ever really pays off, but if you can afford, why not.
I don't get banelings, no.
Most of the time I lose ZvP it's because I couldn't scout anything (about 90% of my losses). Other 10% I messed something up and played too greedily or whatever. As for the best unit composition I guess you have to get blink, storm and phoenixes without doing too much stuff at the same time, or roach ling pushes will just kill you. Most of the things that counter mutas get countered by roach ling, so that'd be my response. Even if he tries to counter it with let's say a stargate and blink, that's just not enough to deal with what you got. I think if you play this style really well there's just no real way to lose a game unless you do some terrible mistake. Protoss probably lacks some anti muta, but it's too early to judge. I think protosses will have to open with at least 1stargate every game now, we'll see.
I take my 5th and 6th gas asap - when I'm safe to go mutas that is. Check out the replays and you'll see that it works out just fine (even vs allins). Hope I got em all now.
On November 11 2011 04:14 decaf wrote: edit: also, if someone has any questions regarding my build feel free to ask =) (unless it's in the OP, then I won't reply) and feel free to share your experience with this build, because I'm curious to see how it works out for you and if I have been helpful and how I can improve the guide
I'm Diamond and my ZvP was terrible; the matchup just felt gross, and it was my least favourite to play. I basically concluded lategame protoss is ridiculously stupid strong, that I was playing too passively (and thus allowing protoss to reach that stupid strong army too easily), and that getting much more aggressive would probably help enormously. I found this thread on TL and it seemed to be exactly what I was looking for; an earlygame that made sense leading into a midgame that looked genuinely scary while being SAFE and ROBUST at the same time.
And it seems to be just that! I've only had four ZvPs so far, but I've won 3 of them in a devastatingly convincing fashion and the 4th I only lost because I neglected to take my 2nd/3rd gases early enough. 4 games isn't exactly much to go on, but those games felt really, really good; very divorced from my previous ZvP experience. I'm actually looking forward to getting a ZvP now.
Thank you, great to hear I have been helpful =) Update: I changed the format of the OP a little bit. Removed some spoilers and added a proper build order so you guys don't have to read another thread. Also included what to do vs fast colossi pushes. You will now be able to find this guide also at: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255
On November 22 2011 21:12 sandg wrote: Hi, how come you do 12 pool 19 hatch rather than 11pool 18 hatch? Is there much difference?
Hey, when you do 12 pool 19 hatch you will have exactly 2 larvae and 250 minerals when your spawning pool finishes and you'll be able to make a queen and 4 lings, it's just incredibly smooth. That's the reason, it wins and loses vs the same cheeses, too.
Really sick guide you have here. I've been doing something similar (but different) lately. I open with +1 range and roaches as well to be safe any 2 base pushes but I like to only get around 15 mutas and turtle up to BLs if he gets a third. Defending certain pushes with bling ling mutas and spines. But this is probably a better way to use mutas. It feels more zerglike (more like zvt actually) where you use mobility and map control to slowly chip away at your opponent. (I might even start 12 pooling).
I have a few questions though, what do you do if they go for an early (or late) 2 base colossus push? The earlier one with double robos and the later one with 3-3 upgrades? Do you just try and go for the base trade and delay their army with spines? What are the possible ways to lose in a base race with them?
Also what do you do if they turtle really hard on 3 bases and open with blink stalkers and get HTs, plus a ton of cannons? Do you just go for the base trade or do you try and get BLs out?
Oh and what are your throughts on drone scouting with a 12 pool opening?
Quite frankly, I have been inactive for about 3 weeks, because I don't really got the time and it will take me another 2 weeks to get back. I'm saying this because I haven't really faced a lot of those 'new' responses. I mean yea, protosses were countering what I'm doing, but I don't really know how well. I assume that it's still almost the same, though. That being said: If you're talking about a colosses push that comes so early that it's an all in you have to treat it as such. I think squirtle and some other korean were doing this at IPL or something and it's insanely strong. I guess the counter to it is either mass ling roach or ling roach and a handful of corruptors. The other one you're talking about should come much later when you've already harassed him a ton so it's really up to that I'd say. The rule of thumb is always if you can't fight his army fight his buildings instead.
The turtle one is harder to predict. If you saw CrazyMoving vs HerO in gsl code A then you got a good example of it. I think the counter of protoss vs mutas is somehwat a 50/50 chance of winning if both players play equally well. So it comes down to who's the better player. You just have to have very good muta control. Still, the main point this guide is trying to make is denying the protosses third. Also I think an overreaction by protoss can always be killed by roach ling so keep scouting with an overseer.
Sorry, didn't catch your edit, just saw it. Drone scouting is not really needed, since you can spread out your first 2 overlords and lings will be so early that he can't really do anything that would go unscouted. Also the 12pool is so early that it's like you reacted to some sort of cheese while doing a later pool build after drone scouting. The only time when I do send out a drone is to check my natural when I feel suspicious. Sometimes a protoss will simply put a pylon and let it finish, you'll need 6 lings vs that or it will take you ages to out-dps a building cyber core. 2 overlords and 4 lings really are all the scouting you need.
Once again, thank you very much =) I really appreciate the time and work you've put into this and I hope that people can learn a lot from these casts. I especially like the ones vs the GM players, really well done. I'll add 'em to the OP so guys make sure to check out those casts and go subscribe his channel =)
Hi decaf, I have a question. I'm a toss player that switching to Zerg in next season, I didn't watch all the replays but from the replays I watched I didn't see much creep spread. How do you handle creep spread? Is it a stylistic choice going using all the Queen energy for injects?
On December 11 2011 04:56 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi decaf, I have a question. I'm a toss player that switching to Zerg in next season, I didn't watch all the replays but from the replays I watched I didn't see much creep spread. How do you handle creep spread? Is it a stylistic choice going using all the Queen energy for injects?
Hey, vs protoss I simply don't find it that necessary. If you want to spread creep aggressively get an extra queen (I probably should do this, since it does help even if there's no split micro like in ZvT going on), because you'll need all your injects to drone up in the early game, which is super important. Plus ling muta is a style that really isn't that dependent on creep. So yea, you can and should do it and if you do get a 3rd queen for it (which is always nice vs stargate play anyways).
I do the 3 Queen opener so I can get creep everywhere. It especially helps when you creep your base like Stephano so Warp Prism/Stargate plays are easier to deal with. This means less minerals obviously but since I'm pretty bad at macro, this isn't really an issue for me
Sorry I know this is a bit OT , amazing guide btw it's given me some direction which I was clearly lacking in this MU, pretty ,much relying on hydra ling drops to win me the game before they can build an army to deal with it :< Was wondering if you have any plans for guides for dealing with the other mu's? Also nice having the games casted and in replay form thanks a lot for the time you have clearly put into this guide.
Well, I didn't put any work into the casts, that's all KangaRuthless' work who voluntarily agreed to do it, so credit for the casts goes to him! Right now I have a ZvZ guide in mind with heavy focus on the early game, but that'll take quite some time to finish, because as one of my friends said: "ZvZ is too fucked for guides". Maybe with the start of the new ladder season or something like that.
Thanks a ton for doing all that work, I really appreciate it! I have been giving your guidelines a try and so far I am pretty happy with the way the eco gets up to speed so quickly.
On December 11 2011 04:56 ApocAlypsE007 wrote: Hi decaf, I have a question. I'm a toss player that switching to Zerg in next season, I didn't watch all the replays but from the replays I watched I didn't see much creep spread. How do you handle creep spread? Is it a stylistic choice going using all the Queen energy for injects?
Hey, vs protoss I simply don't find it that necessary. If you want to spread creep aggressively get an extra queen (I probably should do this, since it does help even if there's no split micro like in ZvT going on), because you'll need all your injects to drone up in the early game, which is super important. Plus ling muta is a style that really isn't that dependent on creep. So yea, you can and should do it and if you do get a 3rd queen for it (which is always nice vs stargate play anyways).
It may be a bit outdated by now, but from what I remember seeing a few months ago out of Losira/Nestea is that they get about 2 creep tumors down in the beginning with their first 2 queens. This creates a lull in their production where their money starts stacking up even with constant production, which allows them adequate funds to get their third hatch down around 30 supply. Those early tumors also help to connect your nat and third for quicker rally/queen assistance.
I dunno if it's just me, but the first 3 replays, as well as the last one, can not be found. Could you possibly re-up them? Great guide btw, I've been looking for something to replace my now-defunct infestor style, and this seems like a strong style.
On December 13 2011 16:25 Lobotomist wrote: I dunno if it's just me, but the first 3 replays, as well as the last one, can not be found. Could you possibly re-up them? Great guide btw, I've been looking for something to replace my now-defunct infestor style, and this seems like a strong style.
Allow me to quote myself from the OP:
Note: It might occur that the link doesn't work the first time you click on it. You'll get an error message saying "Replay Not Found". Just try again and it will work at the 2nd or 3rd time. I have no idea what's up with that, I get the same message sometimes as well.
Watching the replays and such, it seems to me that Mutas are sort of 'countered' by a fast third. In all of the games, you deny the protoss' third with roach/ling. It appears, that to make mutas work, not only does protoss have to open in a way favorable to mutas (no bunch of phoenix, no blink, preferably robo), but you have to deny protoss' third with roach/ling before getting the muta tech out.
I mean, what do you think of that analysis decaf? I think the 'closer' games appear to be when protoss does get the third, but loses his army in the process, or does get the third, but only after being delayed uncomfortably, or does get the third, but loses tech or probes in the process.
Generally: the larger the map the better it is for zerg, same goes for this style.
About taking a fast third: if you catch him doing that (which is fairly easy because you're free to spread your overlords) then your reaction should be to not make any units at all. Protoss is too good defensively and sacrificing your economy and hope to get his down won't end very well for you. Whenever I see the protoss player taking a fast third (like the game vs imakki) I immediatly turn all my larvae into drones and take my 5th and 6th geysers and get macro hatcheries and start expanding once my economy allows me to do so. Don't make any roaches, they're there to carry you safely into the midgame and when your opponent is being greedy there's no use playing safely. Just go straight to ling muta and harass him as much as you can, you will always find yourself in a spot where you're magic boxing his mineral line. Just be greedy yourself and skip roaches alltogether.
^ That was very informative, I hadn't seen that game (was added later?).
Couldn't you also have denied P's third with roach/ling into speedroach ling? I suppose if any map protoss could stop mass roach is that map, easy third, but in general...
And secondly, did you see he was going fast third, maybe him working on the rocks? You had an overlord around there but wasn't sure if you saw him working rocks or not. But if you were wrong about him going third instead of mass gateway, you would've just died to a gateway timing (you went lair around 8:30, same time as gateway timings arrive, you had basically zero units).
Maybe if you just know protoss is going third, macro'ing and going straight into mutas is a good idea, but I think that in most cases, it's pretty much impossible to tell if protoss is doing that. You can tell things like double stargate, for example, by sacc'ing overlord and seeing nothing in the base, but you can't tell if he either has gateways in the corner or just is banking money for an expo.
I suppose if you truly know protoss is going third, and you see robo, then rushing mutas is good. I'm just not sure how your point of view in that game was, because you can't really know they are going fast third usually and will just die to mass gateway timings if you rush lair like that.
Considering it was cross map, my lings didn't find any pylons and I saw him working on the rocks I was fairly certain he wouldn't try to allin me (units on rocks means no units out that help secure a pylon). If I had reacted like he was going to all in me I could have tried to deny his third and depending on the map/spawn locations and the situational micro I would have been able to do so or not - I think it's more likely I'm successful with it though but you have a better shot winning the game when you go for the macro game like I did.
And well, there's always the possibilty of hidden tech or gates. You'll never be able to account for that.
You don't even need to see a robo, mutas even crush 1stargate play and fare well vs 2 stargate play if it hasn't been around for too long. The proper response is upraded blink stalkers with storm support.
Ah okay. You were able to confirm him going for a third because of him working the rocks. So what do you think if protoss opens some sort of gateway pressure, then takes a more 'normal' third afterwards - do you use the roaches and lings you made, and make a few more to deny the third, or do you straight away go for mutas and macro instead? I feel like 3 base protoss, even as a 5 base zerg, is much harder to deal with than 2 base protoss as a 3 base zerg. 3 base is sort of the tipping point I feel, since you can hold any 2 base protoss with hatch tech, but 3 base protoss takes either maxed out lair tech remaxing over and over, or hive tech - so, that's why I prefer going roach/ling. I suppose you can take a middle ground with it too, and I probably do, but when p takes their third is usually when they are most vulnerable, if you can't deny the third you can at least kill a bunch of units. You saw how small that guy's army was (him moving out was really stupid, especially considering he didn't see your third so naturally thought you were on 2 base).
If he does a push before taking a third you'll obviously need to defend that. If you have a lot of units left over after that fight you can always try to deny/delay his third by being annoying with your left over units. While you wait for your spire to finish you can also make a bunch of zerglings to help doing that, but I wouldn't make any more roaches at that point. Roaches cost gas and we want that gas for out mutalisks, lings are always welcome - you can toss em away to free up supply once you have some gas banked until you're at like 50 mutas. The only time I do make roaches again is when I triggered an allin due to my constand harassment and he got a couple of archons in his army to help deal with that (I'll have mass spines as well though).
Hey OP, just happened to come across this thread after just losing a game using a somewhat similar strategy, I'm hoping I could get some advice on what I could have done to play this game out better?
On December 28 2011 04:37 Michaels wrote: what do you do against 2stargate?
Tbh I don't know the correct response to the double stargate, because I feel like there's no unit that counters it. If you go hydras and you don't manage to save your third and do a signifcant amount of damage with em you're obviously dead. On some maps it's actually really hard to save your third (like on shak), especially if they choose to warp in a bunch of zealots. Dealing with double stargate is somewhat out of place in this guide though since I feel like it's kind of all in (although it's actually kinda not) and mutas aren't the right choice for several reasons. It takes way too long for the spire to finish and you will most likely lose it. By the time the first units he made out of the stargates hit it's impossible to tell if he continues to do so or if he's quickly transitioning into colossi or an all in. The only two situations I could imagine where a spire still is possible is when he only makes voidrays (but then you will most likely lose it or take serious amounts of damage) or if he's making like only 6 phoenixes and then transitions into colossi (but that's not really scoutable). The correct response imo is not losing your third, getting hydras, defend with them and trying to get rid of them as fast as possible or they will make you lose the game.
Alright, reuploaded them to a (hopefully) better site. I wasn't able to get all of em so there's 2 missing, but those were not so important; I uploaded one vs another grandmaster protoss and one vs what I think is LiquidHero to make up for it. His points were insane, like 1350 while other number one master players had like 1250 and he said he was the real hero after the game when I asked so I think it's him.
http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)
Have fun! ps: don't mind my shitty ladder points, I'm switching to terran.
I´d love to see you play this style vs Ranged, his muta defenses are usually sick, and I played against a variation of this yesterday, instead of the normal 2 base ling muta, he went for early roaches off of 2 bases, and then to muta, so he had roaches to defend the 7 gate I was going to pump at him. However, +2 blink stalkers allowed me to get my 3rd up while killing a bunch of his army, his mutas were not aggressive, and he tried to harass my 3rd and main and all that sht, but when i have that sort of advantage I can split up stalkers to defend it. But it was a very interesting style.
this has become my standard against Protoss. What gives me the most trouble are 7/8 gate all ins with or without robo. But decaf already stated that. I probably just have to scout it better.
Apart from the I really feel zvp is a battle of denying Protoss' third base.
Hey, still new to this style, and I have a couple of questions
Scenario
I constantly deny toss' third base. However, he seems to have a solid defense of his 2 main bases, with blink stalkers and.. STORM.
Do i transition into a more roach heavy army, or do i just say F**K it and keep making ling even if he is making many hts
Also, how do I decide if I can take on his army, or if I should go for a base trade? Judging army size isnt too difficult, but when toss has 5-10 storms available, im not so sure anymore
Hey, if you play more you'll get a feeling for it, but to answer your question: expand a bunch and spine up, if he moves out destroy his buildings and attack him when he faces your spines. I like to be a little more roach heavy vs that last all in (spines free up supply).
man templars are tricky. I barely won a game with this but those templars really made me afraid. My great wall of spines delayed him just enough to kill all of his structures phew~
I have a question: what do you do when protoss has a kind of easy third to take, like tal darim or even more entombed valley? cause then I feel that multipronged attacks are overall harder ...
Been really hitting a wall with my ZvP recently. Iv been doing a generally similar build (12 pool for life) but seeing how you follow up after the 2 base pressures is helpful as its really what iv been failing at so thank you!
On January 11 2012 20:56 Macpo wrote: I have a question: what do you do when protoss has a kind of easy third to take, like tal darim or even more entombed valley? cause then I feel that multipronged attacks are overall harder ...
I got entombed valley vetoed, never played a single game on it so I'm not sure. On TDA multipronged attacks (esp with zerglings) are a bit harder when he walls off his 3rd but it's possible. Roaches can hit the gates while mutas harass the main's and nat's mineral lines. Sometimes ling runbys into the main and 3rd work as well while you harass with mutas elsewhere (most Ps forget to put a stalker back at the wall in at the nat when they move stalkers through to defend mutas). Make sure to check out the game vs imakki.
I love that strat. Look, I'm not saying I'm any good (Far from it) but at least I start to win more and more zvp.. and this strat helped a lot. I always felt like zvp was so easy from the protoss perspective (Even when I'd offrace and play as PvZ, I'd totally rape my opponent.) I mean, there's so many cheese that protoss can do.. and even if you resist to all of them, you'll often lose to mass colo + stalk.. and if it goes to the late game, whatever number of base you have, mothership deathball will just decimate the army. (There's an excellent strategy guide talking about that.. I've tried but I'm sadly not good enough to execute it correctly, meh).
So, yeah, muta. For once, I feel like it's my turn to make them rage. They have to "think" for once, damnit. They can't just turtle and go for a 7 gate push without taking into consideration what the zerg is doing.. And for some reason, I've always found roach to be really bad against protoss. Force field / Colo just eat them alive and in the late game they take so much supply, it's not even funny.
I really like the strat because it resists to mostly all first cheese of the game and.. once you hit the mid-game, you stay there. It reminds me orc vs undead at war3.. where orc was so strong t2 that it'd stay there. So, even if undead T3 was in theory stronger, orc would expend and put so much pressure on him that he'd die or be really weak at T3. So with the muta harass, I feel it's a little bit the same thing. If you played well the begin of the game, you're stronger than the toss in mid-game and it's time to mass pressure and expend.
And the beauty of all that is.. even if I lose, I feel like the toss tried hard and had to micro and macro.. unlike just getting stalkers colossus and spamming force field.
You sir are a genious! Well you and NesTea. I love this opening as the game's pace is in my control.
I use to loathe the toss deathball - it was instant loss but now I feel like I have a fighting chance. As the OP stated, not scouting hidden tech or being too passive (10 minutes without a major engagement) are the only ways I really feel weak. Just take early pushes very seriously (stop droning before the push comes out and mass lings, roaches a few spines with 1/2 spores if DT or stargate pre-emptively) you can easily hold the push and counter attack AND move to a larger economy - leaving your opponent in an awkward position because you trade armies (always focus their gas units as this will starve them and delay tech).
My theory why the muta and roach and ling composition really works in mid game is that the constant harass probably overloads the opponents brain with too much information and quick decision making that HAS to be made. Unless they have really solid mechanics and pay attention to the entire mini-map you can hit in two to three places at once or just mix it up and you can tell when they throw in the towel. They just bundle everything up at their natural then usually start to move out about a minute later.
I've watched a lot of my replays from my opponents camera POV to try to understand their psyschology. They start missing all sorts of things once you start the constant harass - gasses don't get resaturated, supply blocks occur, they forget training drones and chronos, bases get over and undersaturated, upgrades get forgotten, scouting goes out the window...it must feel like a death from a thousand cuts...
really great guide !! one question for the OP: how do you scout/deal with this really fast +1 aggression? its this relatively new build and it owns the 7:00 roach warren timing
On February 10 2012 06:29 MapleLeafSirup wrote: really great guide !! one question for the OP: how do you scout/deal with this really fast +1 aggression? its this relatively new build and it owns the 7:00 roach warren timing
What one are your talking about because an FFE/Nex First into +1 4 gate finishes warpgate around 7:40 so the attack hits at 7:40-7:50 + warpgate conversion time + warp in + walk time so you should be fine
For that timing the 7:00 warren is sufficient if you make roaches at your 3rd rather than just making roaches from all hatches. If you are scared put a spine there as well.
It looks good, but the gas is a little problem as mutas are very cost heavy on gas. I actually do a varation of this build myself sometimes. I may try yours as it looks a lot better timed than mine. Thanks ^_^
What about vs the early zealot timing? I have been seeing zergs who go quick zerglings to muta get +1 carapace first instead of damage in order to survive the two shot zealots will have by then. Would you consider this to be acceptable for this build, or would you stay with your +1 ranged/melee attack first? Why?
On February 10 2012 19:51 Msrobinson wrote: What about vs the early zealot timing? I have been seeing zergs who go quick zerglings to muta get +1 carapace first instead of damage in order to survive the two shot zealots will have by then. Would you consider this to be acceptable for this build, or would you stay with your +1 ranged/melee attack first? Why?
You never have +1 carapace done by the 8 minute mark so the point is moot for the early zealot timing.
+1 carapace first could be good too, as DRG upgrades it when he goes mutas. Just theorycrafting here since i don't really upgrade it. -Carapace directly upgrades the lings that you are going to produce along with mutas. -Carapace affects roach too. -Better against immortal timing (i believe toss cant go twilight +2 attack when they do this), when you need to produce more lings but not dying instantly to their reactive zealots warp-ins.
Since I don't play Zerg anymore I'll answer those questions in a general way: For instance if your opponent does some kind of +1 zealot pressure that comes before any roaches are out check the replay and look at what he did. Next time your recognize the same pattern simply get the roach warren adequately earlier. You might have to adjust your scouting as well. Doing simple math will help you work out some timings.
It's tough to say at this point, but my guess is that it will change only slightly. As it stands, the strategy goes something like this:
#1: take fast third, defend with roaches #2: switch to muta production when safe enough to do so #3: abuse P's inability to leave base against mutas by taking lots of bases #4: pour additional gas income into mutas which strengthens map control and future income, causing muta count to snowball #5: base race when P pushes out
So what would a fleet beacon range upgrade for the phoenix change?
#1: unaffected #2: unaffected #3: mostly unchanged. If pursuing a phoenix defense, P will not be able to move out without cannons, fleet beacon, range upgrade, and a respectable phoenix count. Z will still have a large timing window where they can take bases uncontested as P sits in his base defending. #4: effectiveness of snowballing muta count will have a limit. Pre-patch, 12 mutas are a good way to get 30 mutas, and 30 mutas are a good way to get 60 mutas, and 60 mutas wins the game. The phoenix range upgrade may put a timer on the usefulness of mutas, so that by the time Z gets 30 mutas, P might have invested in a way to kill them for free at which point further investment in pure mutas will be wasted. #5: base racing will still be a very powerful threat to pin P in his base up to the point that P has a fleet beacon and 6+ phoenixes, but when P reaches that tech, they'll have a reliable way to prevent mutas from base trading. Z will have to transition and defend in order to win.
In conclusion, I think getting 20 mutas will still be incredibly strong vs P, but the 60 muta endgame will probably be less effective.
On February 13 2012 05:29 kcdc wrote: It's tough to say at this point, but my guess is that it will change only slightly. As it stands, the strategy goes something like this:
#1: take fast third, defend with roaches #2: switch to muta production when safe enough to do so #3: abuse P's inability to leave base against mutas by taking lots of bases #4: pour additional gas income into mutas which strengthens map control and future income, causing muta count to snowball #5: base race when P pushes out
So what would a fleet beacon range upgrade for the phoenix change?
#1: unaffected #2: unaffected #3: mostly unchanged. If pursuing a phoenix defense, P will not be able to move out without cannons, fleet beacon, range upgrade, and a respectable phoenix count. Z will still have a large timing window where they can take bases uncontested as P sits in his base defending. #4: effectiveness of snowballing muta count will have a limit. Pre-patch, 12 mutas are a good way to get 30 mutas, and 30 mutas are a good way to get 60 mutas, and 60 mutas wins the game. The phoenix range upgrade may put a timer on the usefulness of mutas, so that by the time Z gets 30 mutas, P might have invested in a way to kill them for free at which point further investment in pure mutas will be wasted. #5: base racing will still be a very powerful threat to pin P in his base up to the point that P has a fleet beacon and 6+ phoenixes, but when P reaches that tech, they'll have a reliable way to prevent mutas from base trading. Z will have to transition and defend in order to win.
In conclusion, I think getting 20 mutas will still be incredibly strong vs P, but the 60 muta endgame will probably be less effective.
Since so many people asked me about double stargate and how to hold it I thought I'd link the very recent GSL game from Parting vs DRG, where DRG displayed perfect defense. Don't read further if you don't like spoilers.
This is the very first game so it's free to watch for anyone. DRG did not do a 12pool 19hatch, but that's not essential. After defending the vrays with a handful of roaches and mass queens with a few spores he got a spire and made a couple of corruptors before getting mutas.
Other than that, I agree with what kcdc said. Thanks for sharing.
On April 10 2012 10:38 Corsica wrote: how important carapace in this unit composition?
after +1 melee lets say better to go carapace? or ranged?
Actually you get the +1 ranged then you get the +1 melee. You can also get a second evo to get +1 melee and +1 carapace simultaneously to counter the +1 zealot attacks. Killing zerglings with 2 instead of 3 swipes is quite good, so preventing that can never be a bad thing. The carapace is good vs zealots, but the melee upgrade is better vs stalkers. I'd rather have the melee upgrade if I had to choose one in this situation.
On October 21 2011 17:26 decaf wrote: Disclaimer: This guide is directed towards diamond+ players. If you're looking for fundamentals read this guide instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096 Special thanks to KangaRuthless for being awesome and casting my replays! Make sure to check out his channel ( http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless ) and subscribe! He does a real good job at casting and deserves some attention =).
Introduction: Hey, this is decaf again ~~ Some of you _might_ know me from the other two guides I wrote way back. + Show Spoiler +
Usually I'm top 8 masters on EU, right now I'm slumping a bit because I haven't gotten to play a whole lot so don't read too much into that, I'll be writing a guide instead~~
So, this is my guide about my rather new ZvP style. After the infestor nerf in ZvP I thought they were quite useless so I started fooling around with other stuff. Hydras, baneling drops, aggressive builds, but nothing seemed to work quite well till I finally got to roach ling muta. ZvP is my strongest matchup by far right now and I don't lose unless my opponent manages to hide tech or warpgates and I don't socut it in time.
That being said I'll start off. Basic Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
Against FFE: Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14).
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) ~32 3rd hatchery @~6min double gas in main @~7min evo chamber, roach warren @~8:45min 3rd, 4th gas gas spent on: ling speed->+1ranged attack->lair->roach speed (with as many roaches as you need mixed in) note: if I don't expect an all in I will take my 5th and 6th gas the second my 3rd finishes, if I do I wait till I defended it properly
Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build and I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though). If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off. Sac an overlord at 7:30 minutes to see what he's doing. Start making units at 8:30. If he does an all in and you haven't made any units by then you'll most likely lose. Even if your opponent does not all in it can be really good to make units, because you will be able to deny his third.
Against 1gate/3gate FE:
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch gas when pool is done 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) @100gas: ling speed @ 24gas: evo chamber @100gas: +1ranged attack @100gas: lair, 2nd gas Get the roach warren in time to have roaches ready at the 8minute mark Add 3rd and 4th gas when you reach 2 base saturation
I open this build on maps where I know he's not going for an FFE or where it's really unlikely. If I scout him doing the unexpected and go for a fast forge expand my reaction is to cancel the gas geyser or if I scout him last to simply not mine from it and continue with my vs FFE build. Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair and my third and fourth gas when I have 2 base saturation (around the time when I'm taking my third). Sac an overlord at ~6minutes to scout what he's doing. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.
What I spend my gas on: Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy. For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base. If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade for flying units and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.
Scouting One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it. Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).
When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't recommend it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden. After an all-in: If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game
Realizing he's going to take a third: If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend off his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus.
Robo tech: Make mutas. Simple as that, unless he goes for a real fast robo bay and will do some kind of 2-3 colossi push. But this is always off of an FFE and if you scout with an overseer you'll see it. Just get corruptors instead of hydras and prepare for the all in. The other case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas.
Stargate tech: This one is tricky. Against 1 stargate it really depends on what he's doing. If he's really heavy on the vrays you can get mutas to clean em all up but you will have to rely on your spores/queens for a long time. Against 1 stargate pumping vrays I usually defend like that. If he instead goes very phoenix heavy it's iffy. You can go mutas if you have a ton of ressources saved up and you're sure to overpower his phoenix count, if you don't you're better off getting hydras. Most players tend to get like 4 to 5 phoenixes and then switch to robo tech, in that situation it's fine to make mutas as well. I don't really recommend using mutas unless you're sure your opponent quickly switches to robo tech. Against 2 stargates you must not build mutas. It's an all in and mutas don't work vs any kind of all in.
Your main goal is to prevent his third base. With this style I do double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade. You can also try to catch parts of his army off guard, because he will spread his army to deal with the mutas properly.
Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin: You're able to deny his third: If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing. You're not able to deny his third: On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously. If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.
Basically this whole build revolves around wearing your opponent down - and mutas do a damn good job at it. The roaches' sole purpose is to carry you safely to the midgame, after that you're free to abuse the ability you gain from muta ling. Keep upgrading and if you can't fight the opposing army go for a basetrade and take the whole map.
Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough. I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.
With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much? It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.
On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down? It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
Do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade? The longer the game goes, the more mutas and thus lings I will add to the composition. The roaches' sole purpose is to keep me alive throughout the mid-game. Usually I'll have 2 evo chambers upgrading melee and carapace upgrades so lings (ultras, broodlings) will be even stronger. I don't think I ever upgraded the +2 ranged attacks upgrade with this style. In case of a basetrade you will need the mobility thus slowly getting rid of the roaches is a good idea. With this style I don't really transition into anything else, I just keep upgrading. If your army is too weak to fight the opponent's go for a basetrade.
Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? The reason why I get my +1 before lair is because all my timings are based on my lair timing. This is something I personally found out and it works really well for me. First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster. Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it. As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades.
http://drop.sc/86186 - SFTO|GruntT ~#220 on ladder, playing vs one base into expansion http://drop.sc/86185 - GM toss (tinToss), scouts spire and tries to counterreact on TD cross (no mutas were made) http://drop.sc/86184 - GM toss (imakki), taldarim cross, gets 3 bases up http://drop.sc/86183 - opp going for DT into archon immortal while taking a 3rd http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)
Decaf, just a quick question. I know you said you don't play zerg anymore, but I'm finding that I'm losing to just mass blink stalker. What do you feel is the best way to react to scouting it? Should I maybe ditch muta tech and spend the gas instead on infestors?
On October 21 2011 17:26 decaf wrote: Disclaimer: This guide is directed towards diamond+ players. If you're looking for fundamentals read this guide instead: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170096 Special thanks to KangaRuthless for being awesome and casting my replays! Make sure to check out his channel ( http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless ) and subscribe! He does a real good job at casting and deserves some attention =).
Introduction: Hey, this is decaf again ~~ Some of you _might_ know me from the other two guides I wrote way back. + Show Spoiler +
Usually I'm top 8 masters on EU, right now I'm slumping a bit because I haven't gotten to play a whole lot so don't read too much into that, I'll be writing a guide instead~~
So, this is my guide about my rather new ZvP style. After the infestor nerf in ZvP I thought they were quite useless so I started fooling around with other stuff. Hydras, baneling drops, aggressive builds, but nothing seemed to work quite well till I finally got to roach ling muta. ZvP is my strongest matchup by far right now and I don't lose unless my opponent manages to hide tech or warpgates and I don't socut it in time.
That being said I'll start off. Basic Build Order: + Show Spoiler +
Against FFE: Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14).
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) ~32 3rd hatchery @~6min double gas in main @~7min evo chamber, roach warren @~8:45min 3rd, 4th gas gas spent on: ling speed->+1ranged attack->lair->roach speed (with as many roaches as you need mixed in) note: if I don't expect an all in I will take my 5th and 6th gas the second my 3rd finishes, if I do I wait till I defended it properly
Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build and I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though). If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off. Sac an overlord at 7:30 minutes to see what he's doing. Start making units at 8:30. If he does an all in and you haven't made any units by then you'll most likely lose. Even if your opponent does not all in it can be really good to make units, because you will be able to deny his third.
Against 1gate/3gate FE:
9 overlord 12 pool 15 overlord 15 queen + 4lings 19 hatch gas when pool is done 2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery) @100gas: ling speed @ 24gas: evo chamber @100gas: +1ranged attack @100gas: lair, 2nd gas Get the roach warren in time to have roaches ready at the 8minute mark Add 3rd and 4th gas when you reach 2 base saturation
I open this build on maps where I know he's not going for an FFE or where it's really unlikely. If I scout him doing the unexpected and go for a fast forge expand my reaction is to cancel the gas geyser or if I scout him last to simply not mine from it and continue with my vs FFE build. Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair and my third and fourth gas when I have 2 base saturation (around the time when I'm taking my third). Sac an overlord at ~6minutes to scout what he's doing. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.
What I spend my gas on: Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy. For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base. If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade for flying units and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.
Scouting One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it. Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).
When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't recommend it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden. After an all-in: If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game
Realizing he's going to take a third: If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend off his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus.
Robo tech: Make mutas. Simple as that, unless he goes for a real fast robo bay and will do some kind of 2-3 colossi push. But this is always off of an FFE and if you scout with an overseer you'll see it. Just get corruptors instead of hydras and prepare for the all in. The other case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas.
Stargate tech: This one is tricky. Against 1 stargate it really depends on what he's doing. If he's really heavy on the vrays you can get mutas to clean em all up but you will have to rely on your spores/queens for a long time. Against 1 stargate pumping vrays I usually defend like that. If he instead goes very phoenix heavy it's iffy. You can go mutas if you have a ton of ressources saved up and you're sure to overpower his phoenix count, if you don't you're better off getting hydras. Most players tend to get like 4 to 5 phoenixes and then switch to robo tech, in that situation it's fine to make mutas as well. I don't really recommend using mutas unless you're sure your opponent quickly switches to robo tech. Against 2 stargates you must not build mutas. It's an all in and mutas don't work vs any kind of all in.
Your main goal is to prevent his third base. With this style I do double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade. You can also try to catch parts of his army off guard, because he will spread his army to deal with the mutas properly.
Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin: You're able to deny his third: If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing. You're not able to deny his third: On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously. If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.
Basically this whole build revolves around wearing your opponent down - and mutas do a damn good job at it. The roaches' sole purpose is to carry you safely to the midgame, after that you're free to abuse the ability you gain from muta ling. Keep upgrading and if you can't fight the opposing army go for a basetrade and take the whole map.
Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough. I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.
With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much? It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.
On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down? It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.
Do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade? The longer the game goes, the more mutas and thus lings I will add to the composition. The roaches' sole purpose is to keep me alive throughout the mid-game. Usually I'll have 2 evo chambers upgrading melee and carapace upgrades so lings (ultras, broodlings) will be even stronger. I don't think I ever upgraded the +2 ranged attacks upgrade with this style. In case of a basetrade you will need the mobility thus slowly getting rid of the roaches is a good idea. With this style I don't really transition into anything else, I just keep upgrading. If your army is too weak to fight the opponent's go for a basetrade.
Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? The reason why I get my +1 before lair is because all my timings are based on my lair timing. This is something I personally found out and it works really well for me. First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster. Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it. As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades.
http://drop.sc/86186 - SFTO|GruntT ~#220 on ladder, playing vs one base into expansion http://drop.sc/86185 - GM toss (tinToss), scouts spire and tries to counterreact on TD cross (no mutas were made) http://drop.sc/86184 - GM toss (imakki), taldarim cross, gets 3 bases up http://drop.sc/86183 - opp going for DT into archon immortal while taking a 3rd http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)
Decaf, just a quick question. I know you said you don't play zerg anymore, but I'm finding that I'm losing to just mass blink stalker. What do you feel is the best way to react to scouting it? Should I maybe ditch muta tech and spend the gas instead on infestors?
1 base blink stalker: get 1 or 2 spines, mine a total of 200 gas, get ling speed and +1 melee, get about 32 drones and a macro hatch (in addition to your natural) and a total of 3 queens, mass ling him till he's dead.
2 base blink stalker: I forgot when the timing hits, but instead of pure ling go roach ling and keep mining gas off of 2 geyers, something like 46 drones should be a good amount, add a macro hatchery and I suggest upgrading melee attacks, since blink dodges roach shots
creep spread is essential against both the 1 base and the 2 base all in. it should suffice if you spread your tumor like 2 or 3 times so you cover the entrance in creep. Don't go overboard with your spines, especially if he can easily blink up in your main or somethign like that. I always liked getting 1 or 2 spines to zone a little bit.
EPT
