[G] ZvP Roach Ling Muta - Page 7

Against FFE:
Against protoss I do this opener every game on every map (except xel naga, where I do 14 14).

9 overlord
12 pool
15 overlord
15 queen + 4lings
19 hatch
2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery)
~32 3rd hatchery
@~6min double gas in main
@~7min evo chamber, roach warren
@~8:45min 3rd, 4th gas
gas spent on: ling speed->+1ranged attack->lair->roach speed (with as many roaches as you need mixed in)
note: if I don't expect an all in I will take my 5th and 6th gas the second my 3rd finishes, if I do I wait till I defended it properly

Basically it's an early pool transitioning into an expansion. Nestea invented this build and I find it to be really good. It is safe vs just everything and quite economical as well and it can also give you autowins vs Nexus first builds (that's kinda rare though).
If you stick to this BO on maps where a FFE is likely (shakuras, taldarim, antiga and some others) you'll be well off.
Sac an overlord at 7:30 minutes to see what he's doing. Start making units at 8:30. If he does an all in and you haven't made any units by then you'll most likely lose. Even if your opponent does not all in it can be really good to make units, because you will be able to deny his third.

Against 1gate/3gate FE:

9 overlord
12 pool
15 overlord
15 queen + 4lings
19 hatch
gas when pool is  done
2nd queen (start it after the queen's inject when your hatchery is halfway done and send your first queen down to your hatchery)
@100gas: ling speed
@ 24gas: evo chamber
@100gas: +1ranged attack
@100gas: lair, 2nd gas
Get the roach warren in time to have roaches ready at the 8minute mark
Add 3rd and 4th gas when you reach 2 base saturation

I open this build on maps where I know he's not going for an FFE or where it's really unlikely. If I scout him doing the unexpected and go for a fast forge expand my reaction is to cancel the gas geyser or if I scout him last to simply not mine from it and continue with my vs FFE build. Basically it's the same build, I had to adjust it a little bit though. I'm getting gas when my pool is done (or when I scout he didn't go for FFE on iffy maps) and take my third at the 8 to 9 minute mark rather than the 5 minute mark. I take my second gas when I start my lair and my third and fourth gas when I have 2 base saturation (around the time when I'm taking my third).
Sac an overlord at ~6minutes to scout what he's doing. Pushes are likely to come at the 8 minute mark.

What I spend my gas on:
Whether I play vs FFE or one base into exansion builds, gas always goes into the same stuff: It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Obiously you will have to make some roaches at some point, but you'll have enough gas for that anyways and spine crawlers are really good vs protoss as well if you're very mineral heavy.
For those who are unsure, I get my 3rd and 4th gas when I'm fully saturated on 2 base.
If mutas indeed are the right option I will get my 5th and 6th gases asap. After getting the first batch of mutas I will get the +1 attack upgrade for flying units and will also keep upgrading my ground army as I go.

Scouting
One of the advantages of the 12 pool 19 hatch build is that you can afford to send your first _2_ overlord to directions other than your natural. This is huge. Your lings will be so early that you're able to deal with cannon rushes even if you don't scout it. I still suggest placing your third overlord above your natural and in case you're getting suspicous send a drone just for good measure. On some maps sending one overlord out will suffice though (like ST or meta). Always try to get as many overlords as possible into the right position, you will need it.
Additionally be active with the lings. Check for the locations you're going to get your third at. Proxy pylons are likely to be nearby (especially vs FFE).

When you are safe. It is not wise (and I don't recommend it) to get mutas blindly when you don't know what you're up to. You will outright lose to any all in, since 6 to 8 gates are the reason why mutas disappeared all of a sudden.
After an all-in:
If you survived an all in the game is practically over and you won. If for some reason the game goes on you can feel free to make mutas or just end the game

Realizing he's going to take a third:
If he's not going for an all in but rather take a third and do a slight push (5gate robo might be an example) you can add mutas once you have enough roach ling and maybe spines to fend off his push. Or if you just scout him building his third nexus.

Robo tech:
Make mutas. Simple as that, unless he goes for a real fast robo bay and will do some kind of 2-3 colossi push. But this is always off of an FFE and if you scout with an overseer you'll see it. Just get corruptors instead of hydras and prepare for the all in. The other case in which it is not a good idea to make mutas is when your opponent adds 7 or 8 gates, then you have to prepare for an extreme all in that can only be stopped with hydra support. Other than that robo tech is weak vs mutas.

Stargate tech:
This one is tricky. Against 1 stargate it really depends on what he's doing. If he's really heavy on the vrays you can get mutas to clean em all up but you will have to rely on your spores/queens for a long time. Against 1 stargate pumping vrays I usually defend like that. If he instead goes very phoenix heavy it's iffy. You can go mutas if you have a ton of ressources saved up and you're sure to overpower his phoenix count, if you don't you're better off getting hydras. Most players tend to get like 4 to 5 phoenixes and then switch to robo tech, in that situation it's fine to make mutas as well. I don't really recommend using mutas unless you're sure your opponent quickly switches to robo tech.
Against 2 stargates you must not build mutas. It's an all in and mutas don't work vs any kind of all in.

Your main goal is to prevent his third base. With this style I do double pronged attacks all the time. Send mutas into you opponent's mineral line and focus fire his third with roach ling at the same time. The second you kill his third you basically win the game. If you scout a lack of AA in his army comp you can also try to outright kill his army. If your opponent manages to get that third I think it's wise to transition into muta ling and go for a basetrade.
You can also try to catch parts of his army off guard, because he will spread his army to deal with the mutas properly.

Basically there's two different situations given your opponent is not going for an allin:
You're able to deny his third:
If you manage to do that I suggest getting up to 4 bases and keep harassing non stop. Don't ever attack right into your opponent unless you're sure you can take it. The protoss player has to be going to all in you if he's not able to get his macro up. If you defend this all in (like any other all in) wihtout losing all your economy or something like that you have won the game. Get spines and the right army composition. Mutas are perfect scouts, you should always know exactly what your opponent is doing.
You're not able to deny his third:
On some maps it can be really hard to deny his third (like ST). In that case I suggest expanding like a madman, the fact that your opponent is getting a third gives you much more time. I find 3 base protoss to be retardedly strong, so I will almost always go for a basetrade in which case the extra bases all over the map will help you tremendously.
If you feel like you can do it you can also try to go for the infestor broodlord roach combo, but I don't recommend it. You've already invested a serious amount of gas into mutalisks.

Basically this whole build revolves around wearing your opponent down - and mutas do a damn good job at it. The roaches' sole purpose is to carry you safely to the midgame, after that you're free to abuse the ability you gain from muta ling. Keep upgrading and if you can't fight the opposing army go for a basetrade and take the whole map.

Should you be getting the spire before or after you take the third? And do you need the extra 2 gasses to get up that critical amount of mutalisks quick enough.
I don't condition it on getting my third or not. It's rather about being safe to do so or not. In most cases being safe means having that third up though, because against FFE I will take it at 5:30 and against 1gate/3gate into expanion I will take it at 8:00-9:00.

With the overseer buffed in the latest patch, would it be wise to skip the +1 and go straight for lair so you get quick access to scouting info and get the upgrade while the lair is morphing? Or would this impede the timings too much?
It is always a good idea to get an overseer because it's really cheap now for what it does and sometimes your sacced overlord just doesn't see anything in which case I will get an overseer asap but my lair timing always remains the same.

On maps where it is hard to take a third, do you use the same strategy or do you resort to 2 base plays to keep his third down?
It's a matter of style. For instance vs stargate play on tal'darim I'd go for a hydra nydus all in. Roach ling muta is my ultimate ZvP macro game goal, but I don't try go get to it no matter what. You have to be smart about what you do, if it's not the right place and time, do something else that fits the map/style of your opponent better.

Do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade?
The longer the game goes, the more mutas and thus lings I will add to the composition. The roaches' sole purpose is to keep me alive throughout the mid-game. Usually I'll have 2 evo chambers upgrading melee and carapace upgrades so lings (ultras, broodlings) will be even stronger. I don't think I ever upgraded the +2 ranged attacks upgrade with this style. In case of a basetrade you will need the mobility thus slowly getting rid of the roaches is a good idea. With this style I don't really transition into anything else, I just keep upgrading. If your army is too weak to fight the opponent's go for a basetrade.

Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take?
The reason why I get my +1 before lair is because all my timings are based on my lair timing. This is something I personally found out and it works really well for me.
First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster.
Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it.
As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades.

Have fun watching.

http://drop.sc/86186 - SFTO|GruntT ~#220 on ladder, playing vs one base into expansion
http://drop.sc/86185 - GM toss (tinToss), scouts spire and tries to counterreact on TD cross (no mutas were made)
http://drop.sc/86184 - GM toss (imakki), taldarim cross, gets 3 bases up
http://drop.sc/86183 - opp going for DT into archon immortal while taking a 3rd
http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate
http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)

If you like this cast go ahead and check out his channel
http://www.youtube.com/user/KangaRuthless
and don't forget to subscribe, because his casting is actually really good :>