Alright, reuploaded them to a (hopefully) better site. I wasn't able to get all of em so there's 2 missing, but those were not so important; I uploaded one vs another grandmaster protoss and one vs what I think is LiquidHero to make up for it. His points were insane, like 1350 while other number one master players had like 1250 and he said he was the real hero after the game when I asked so I think it's him.

http://drop.sc/86182 - GM toss (dRw), going for robo into double stargate
http://drop.sc/86187 - LiquidHero (I think), just for the hell of it (or: why 14 14 sucks)

Have fun!
ps: don't mind my shitty ladder points, I'm switching to terran.

n0btozz

Iceland115 Posts

January 07 2012 13:29 GMT

#103

I´d love to see you play this style vs Ranged, his muta defenses are usually sick, and I played against a variation of this yesterday, instead of the normal 2 base ling muta, he went for early roaches off of 2 bases, and then to muta, so he had roaches to defend the 7 gate I was going to pump at him. However, +2 blink stalkers allowed me to get my 3rd up while killing a bunch of his army, his mutas were not aggressive, and he tried to harass my 3rd and main and all that sht, but when i have that sort of advantage I can split up stalkers to defend it. But it was a very interesting style.

imp42

398 Posts

January 08 2012 20:24 GMT

#104

this has become my standard against Protoss. What gives me the most trouble are 7/8 gate all ins with or without robo.
But decaf already stated that. I probably just have to scout it better.

Apart from the I really feel zvp is a battle of denying Protoss' third base.

FindMuck

63 Posts

January 11 2012 03:44 GMT

#105

Hey, still new to this style, and I have a couple of questions

Scenario

I constantly deny toss' third base. However, he seems to have a solid defense of his 2 main bases, with blink stalkers and..
STORM.

Do i transition into a more roach heavy army, or do i just say F**K it and keep making ling even if he is making many hts

Also, how do I decide if I can take on his army, or if I should go for a base trade? Judging army size isnt too difficult, but when toss has 5-10 storms available, im not so sure anymore

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

January 11 2012 11:10 GMT

#106

Hey, if you play more you'll get a feeling for it, but to answer your question: expand a bunch and spine up, if he moves out destroy his buildings and attack him when he faces your spines. I like to be a little more roach heavy vs that last all in (spines free up supply).

evanthebouncy!

United States12796 Posts

January 11 2012 11:49 GMT

#107

man templars are tricky. I barely won a game with this but those templars really made me afraid. My great wall of spines delayed him just enough to kill all of his structures phew~

Macpo

453 Posts

January 11 2012 11:56 GMT

#108

I have a question: what do you do when protoss has a kind of easy third to take, like tal darim or even more entombed valley?
cause then I feel that multipronged attacks are overall harder ...

Iksf

United Kingdom444 Posts

January 11 2012 12:34 GMT

#109

Been really hitting a wall with my ZvP recently. Iv been doing a generally similar build (12 pool for life) but seeing how you follow up after the 2 base pressures is helpful as its really what iv been failing at so thank you!

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

January 11 2012 18:37 GMT

#110

On January 11 2012 20:56 Macpo wrote:
I have a question: what do you do when protoss has a kind of easy third to take, like tal darim or even more entombed valley?
cause then I feel that multipronged attacks are overall harder ...

I got entombed valley vetoed, never played a single game on it so I'm not sure. On TDA multipronged attacks (esp with zerglings) are a bit harder when he walls off his 3rd but it's possible. Roaches can hit the gates while mutas harass the main's and nat's mineral lines. Sometimes ling runbys into the main and 3rd work as well while you harass with mutas elsewhere (most Ps forget to put a stalker back at the wall in at the nat when they move stalkers through to defend mutas). Make sure to check out the game vs imakki.

phzbox

Cape Verde38 Posts

January 12 2012 01:53 GMT

#111

I love that strat. Look, I'm not saying I'm any good (Far from it) but at least I start to win more and more zvp.. and this strat helped a lot. I always felt like zvp was so easy from the protoss perspective (Even when I'd offrace and play as PvZ, I'd totally rape my opponent.) I mean, there's so many cheese that protoss can do.. and even if you resist to all of them, you'll often lose to mass colo + stalk.. and if it goes to the late game, whatever number of base you have, mothership deathball will just decimate the army. (There's an excellent strategy guide talking about that.. I've tried but I'm sadly not good enough to execute it correctly, meh).

So, yeah, muta. For once, I feel like it's my turn to make them rage. They have to "think" for once, damnit. They can't just turtle and go for a 7 gate push without taking into consideration what the zerg is doing.. And for some reason, I've always found roach to be really bad against protoss. Force field / Colo just eat them alive and in the late game they take so much supply, it's not even funny.

I really like the strat because it resists to mostly all first cheese of the game and.. once you hit the mid-game, you stay there. It reminds me orc vs undead at war3.. where orc was so strong t2 that it'd stay there. So, even if undead T3 was in theory stronger, orc would expend and put so much pressure on him that he'd die or be really weak at T3. So with the muta harass, I feel it's a little bit the same thing. If you played well the begin of the game, you're stronger than the toss in mid-game and it's time to mass pressure and expend.

And the beauty of all that is.. even if I lose, I feel like the toss tried hard and had to micro and macro.. unlike just getting stalkers colossus and spamming force field.

/ end of rant.

XChoke

Australia45 Posts

January 12 2012 03:01 GMT

#112

You sir are a genious! Well you and NesTea. I love this opening as the game's pace is in my control.

I use to loathe the toss deathball - it was instant loss but now I feel like I have a fighting chance. As the OP stated, not scouting hidden tech or being too passive (10 minutes without a major engagement) are the only ways I really feel weak. Just take early pushes very seriously (stop droning before the push comes out and mass lings, roaches a few spines with 1/2 spores if DT or stargate pre-emptively) you can easily hold the push and counter attack AND move to a larger economy - leaving your opponent in an awkward position because you trade armies (always focus their gas units as this will starve them and delay tech).

My theory why the muta and roach and ling composition really works in mid game is that the constant harass probably overloads the opponents brain with too much information and quick decision making that HAS to be made. Unless they have really solid mechanics and pay attention to the entire mini-map you can hit in two to three places at once or just mix it up and you can tell when they throw in the towel. They just bundle everything up at their natural then usually start to move out about a minute later.

I've watched a lot of my replays from my opponents camera POV to try to understand their psyschology. They start missing all sorts of things once you start the constant harass - gasses don't get resaturated, supply blocks occur, they forget training drones and chronos, bases get over and undersaturated, upgrades get forgotten, scouting goes out the window...it must feel like a death from a thousand cuts...

Awesome guide <3

MapleLeafSirup

Germany950 Posts

February 09 2012 21:29 GMT

#113

really great guide !!
one question for the OP:
how do you scout/deal with this really fast +1 aggression? its this relatively new build and it owns the 7:00 roach warren timing

LazinCajun

United States294 Posts

February 09 2012 22:58 GMT

#114

Which fast +1 build?

mapleleafs791

United States225 Posts

February 09 2012 23:43 GMT

#115

On February 10 2012 06:29 MapleLeafSirup wrote:
really great guide !!
one question for the OP:
how do you scout/deal with this really fast +1 aggression? its this relatively new build and it owns the 7:00 roach warren timing

What one are your talking about because an FFE/Nex First into +1 4 gate finishes warpgate around 7:40 so the attack hits at 7:40-7:50 + warpgate conversion time + warp in + walk time so you should be fine

For that timing the 7:00 warren is sufficient if you make roaches at your 3rd rather than just making roaches from all hatches. If you are scared put a spine there as well.

ODKStevez

Ireland1225 Posts

February 09 2012 23:50 GMT

#116

It looks good, but the gas is a little problem as mutas are very cost heavy on gas. I actually do a varation of this build myself sometimes. I may try yours as it looks a lot better timed than mine. Thanks ^_^

Klumpmeister

United States31 Posts

February 10 2012 10:16 GMT

#117

This is perfect!

Msrobinson

United States138 Posts

February 10 2012 10:51 GMT

#118

What about vs the early zealot timing? I have been seeing zergs who go quick zerglings to muta get +1 carapace first instead of damage in order to survive the two shot zealots will have by then. Would you consider this to be acceptable for this build, or would you stay with your +1 ranged/melee attack first? Why?

TechSc2

Netherlands554 Posts

February 10 2012 11:46 GMT

#119

On February 10 2012 19:51 Msrobinson wrote:
What about vs the early zealot timing? I have been seeing zergs who go quick zerglings to muta get +1 carapace first instead of damage in order to survive the two shot zealots will have by then. Would you consider this to be acceptable for this build, or would you stay with your +1 ranged/melee attack first? Why?

You never have +1 carapace done by the 8 minute mark so the point is moot for the early zealot timing.

babysimba

10466 Posts

February 10 2012 12:47 GMT

#120

+1 carapace first could be good too, as DRG upgrades it when he goes mutas. Just theorycrafting here since i don't really upgrade it.
-Carapace directly upgrades the lings that you are going to produce along with mutas.
-Carapace affects roach too.
-Better against immortal timing (i believe toss cant go twilight +2 attack when they do this), when you need to produce more lings but not dying instantly to their reactive zealots warp-ins.