Again, really well done. Looking forward to finally seeing me beat GMs :> One thing I have to mention though is that some of the reasons you give for what I do are not necessarily correct from my point of view. For instance the size of a map does not really matter when playing protoss due to the warpfate mechanic. When I build my extractor although I haven't scouted anything it's because I don't know if he FFEd or not. Yes, on taldarim I won't build that extractor because it's very likely that he's going to do so, but on meta for instance I will build htat extractor just in case so I get it up eariler and if I scout him doing an FFE then I will cancel it or simply not mine from it. You could also pay some attention to me spreading out the first 2 of my overlords, because the 12 pool is so early that I don't really need to be safe in that kind of way. My gas timings and evo chamber roach timings should always be the same (sometimes I'm a little bit sloppy though), unless something crazy happened. In the game on metalopolis I scouted with my overlord because his sentry count was so low and I found the amount of buildings placed at his natural to be weird. So I guess my only criticism is improving your gameknowledge a little bit (esp since it's meant to be for a guide), rest is really good. I don't have any demands though, because you do it basically for free and I really like what you do. Keep up the good work, mate, looking forward to seeing the GM replays and thank you very much once again :3
edit: also, if someone has any questions regarding my build feel free to ask =) (unless it's in the OP, then I won't reply) and feel free to share your experience with this build, because I'm curious to see how it works out for you and if I have been helpful and how I can improve the guide
@decaf: I made a mistake in trying to analyze these videos without asking you why you did certain things. Since I don't like having videos up that are factually incorrect, I'm going to redo Metalopolis and Tal Darim (and the final game, as I'm not satisfied with it!) so that the errors are not current in the analysis. I'll make a note for the Nerazim Crypt game, but because the decision making was based off of what you had scouted and your ability to mess up his build with those Lings, I don't feel like it needs to be completely redone; I'll just make a note in the comments. Anyways, apologies for not going to you first to hear your opinions on the matter and hopefully the revamped VODs will be more factual/accurate.
I don't think you really need to redo them. They're fine. It's not like they're the only source to help people, if someone really wants to know how to play this build he/she will read this guide and download some of the replays. I think you will get the idea of why I do certain things when you play this build several times. But it's your choice and I find them already pretty good =) If you feel like responding to this send me a PM so we can keep this guide on topic. Best regards.
Hi, I have a question. I have always gone fast third in ZvP, but recently I've been more aggressively making ling/roaches in the early game to deny the third and hold 6 gates (i suppose I know the build better) and then going mutas, I suppose a little like this.
I have 4 questions though:
1. When should you not go mutas? You talk a bit about when to do it, and it's very helpful, but you didn't address the following: - Mass gateways (maybe a 7 gate that isn't all-in, as he doesnt cut probes) - Blink Tech - High Templar Tech (i dont know, maybe something goofy like archons or something, just saying).
I was also wondering, what if they go double stargate and you hold the all-in, and they transition into double robo deathball or something of the sort. What if after beign held up, they don't make phoenixes but just void rays from those 2 stargates and maybe add on colossi for deathball or just lots of gateways for whatever. I'm aware a good response to this would be mass corruptor/speedbane (no sentries) but just wondering how you think mutas would do, if they 'had' 2 stargates but were maybe no longer prioritizing them, like especially if they tack on robos.
2. The base trade.
I am totally... newb, I suppose, at the whole base trade scenario. When first doing this style, I think there were even a few games I could have solidly won if I just base traded, and today I did my first base trade with mass muta. It was clear he had no chance, but I mean he did kill every hatch of mine and I only had extractors everywhere (i had so many lings and mutas though that no building of his would survive, but you know, base trades are still scary).
When should you not base trade? If protoss pushes out, should you just always base trade when having 20+ mutas? When can you lose in the base trade? What should be your priorities?
When should you simply just fight the opponent? As in what compositions may or may not be better, etc.
3. Motherships. Wtf do you do against motherships. Vortexing mutas is such a pain in the ass, but yet you have to kill it somehow.
4. When, or do you at all, ever tech up? When do you stop making mutas and 'move on'? Or do you just always get 20+ mutas and go for the base trade because it always works? If you do eventually 'move on', what do you recommend? Do you recommend supplementing the mutas, maybe going straight for ultras? Or do you just do a good 'solid' go-to composition (maybe for some it's roach/hydra, for me it's roach/banelingrain/infestor, for destiny it was ling/infestor lol).
Thanks. I thoroughly enjoyed your guide, and it has helped me.
1. If he doesn't cut probes he should have less units thus it's easier to hold, but still don't make any mutas. If you hold it without losing your third and then transition into mutas he's pretty muched screwed, because he doesn't have the tech necessary to deal with your mutas. If he doesn't allin he will at least do a push which needs to do damage, because he's not teching or expanding or doing something else. Blink is not enough of a reaction to counter mutas. First off he will be stuck in his base forever while you can expand and get more mutas and if he decides to move out your roach ling muta will simply crush his composition. High Templars are not too good vs mutas. You need a really good economy to get them going and it does take quite some times to tech to them. If you catch him being greedy while teching to HTs skip mutas and crush him with roach ling.
2. You should not basetrade when you can fight his army head on. Also, 20+ mutas sounds kinda low, I have ilke 40 mutas in every basetrade scenario, so maybe you should work on not losing them or macro better. My priority is killing his nexi first so I can see if he's building pylons near his army. Keep an eye on his probes and make sure no probe leaves the base. You should have a surplus of minerals when you basetrade so just pull all your drones to a safe area and keep building hatchers all over the map (even in his old main). If he wants to protect buildings he has to split up his army. Fighting the deathball can be a little difficult if he has archons and HTs as well as some upgraded blink stalkers.
3. Usually when my opponent goes motherships I have about 20 mutas the time it pops and simply kill it by focus firing. But maybe that was just my opponents being bad. I have no real solution to motherships and find them ridiculously overpowered vs zerg. Maybe you can go harass his base and try to catch the mothership off-guard, it's really slow. I haven't had problems with that though.
4. I never tech up, the only thing I do is get more mutas, get less roaches and get more upgrades as well as more bases. I don't think I've ever lost the basetrade vs toss so I think you don't really need to transition. I only get ultras when I feel like my opponent should have left the game a couple of minutes ago. Thanks for you questions, hope I helped.
1. If he doesn't cut probes he should have less units thus it's easier to hold, but still don't make any mutas. If you hold it without losing your third and then transition into mutas he's pretty muched screwed, because he doesn't have the tech necessary to deal with your mutas. If he doesn't allin he will at least do a push which needs to do damage, because he's not teching or expanding or doing something else.
I don't make a lair in ZvP when going fast third vs FFE until about 90+ supply, or 120+ if there's gateway pressure. If you lose the third or a bunch of drones or something like that, then yea the game is kind of lost already I'm not really worried about how to use mutas when I'm worried about how to survive when on hatch tech. I was just saying, like what if he got 6 gateways and just playing standard macro, maybe did some pressure but wasn't all-in, and then I held him off, would it be wise to get mutas. I guess your answer is yes though, thanks.
You should not basetrade when you can fight his army head on. Also, 20+ mutas sounds kinda low, I have ilke 40 mutas in every basetrade scenario, so maybe you should work on not losing them or macro better
Oh wow, I just assumed around 20-30 was enough. I'm usually maxed by the time I have about 20-30 mutas, getting 40 sounds wild. I guess you must be constantly be making spines, instead of making lings that take up supply like I am. Maybe I'm making too many roaches (i really don't make that much, just enough to hold his gateway early pressure and then I dont make any more really, rest of gas goes to mutas). Or maybe you just bank a shitton of minerals o_o
Fighting the deathball can be a little difficult if he has archons and HTs as well as some upgraded blink stalkers.
Do you recommend getting infestors if I see he's getting blink? Or should I not worry myself about that? Seeing that it's a problem, what exactly do you do about it? Or does that just make the game more interesting lol.
3. Usually when my opponent goes motherships I have about 20 mutas the time it pops and simply kill it by focus firing. But maybe that was just my opponents being bad. I have no real solution to motherships and find them ridiculously overpowered vs zerg. Maybe you can go harass his base and try to catch the mothership off-guard, it's really slow. I haven't had problems with that though.
I believe the experiences I had with it were maybe just situations I should've base traded in. They turtle on 3 base, get a mothership along with some huge deathball, and I can't do any damage with the mothership around, even as fast as mutas are they just cloak and recall everywhere in their turtled 3 bases, as if warp ins and blink and general p mobility was hard enough to deal with against someone stuck on a very tiny 3 bases that is small enough of an area to guard as is. It's really horrible when they attack you then recall when you try to base trade.
4. I never tech up, the only thing I do is get more mutas, get less roaches and get more upgrades as well as more bases. I don't think I've ever lost the basetrade vs toss so I think you don't really need to transition. I only get ultras when I feel like my opponent should have left the game a couple of minutes ago. Thanks for you questions, hope I helped.
Ah, very nice. That's very useful! So you basically transition into purely 2/2 melee and 2/2 air. Do you ever get an infestation pit or hive (and not just in games to 'finish off' a rude opponent who isn't leaving and already lost the game)? What about a second spire for upgrades?
Do you mass spines at all, and if you do, how do you do it? Do you ever lower your drone count from the 80ish count to maybe 50ish when it's very late game, to increase the ratio of mutas to workers in your army?
Also, do you ever get a baneling nest? I feel that getting baneling nest and baneling speed is extremely intuitive if you are going mass ling style, but just wondering what you felt about that seeing as how gas intensive banes are.
And final question: What do you lose against when doing this? What gives you problems? What do you think is the 'right' response from protoss to fight this, the correct 'counter' protoss can do, and what's the counter-counter for zerg to do in response to that?
moar muta?
edit: another question: When do you take your 5th and 6th gas? I find 4 gas from fast third more than enough gets gas for mutas, and if you have 5-6 gases you will have too much gas not enough minerals. I feel the 'sweet spot' where you balance the minerals and gas is like when you have 75+ drones, which means like 120+ supply at least. I was just wondering when you get those gas, as banking gas from 4 geysers when making lair when you aren't spending gas on anything (no roaches, no upgrades maybe? no infestors or anything though) should be enough to pop like 15-20 mutas when spire finishes. Or do you work on banking gas quick and early?
I don't make a lair in ZvP when going fast third vs FFE until about 90+ supply, or 120+ if there's gateway pressure.
I don't know about the supply when getting my lair vs FFE but I think it's much earlier, maybe you should stick to my timings and see how it works out and then judge which style to use.
Do you recommend getting infestors if I see he's getting blink? Or should I not worry myself about that? Seeing that it's a problem, what exactly do you do about it? Or does that just make the game more interesting lol.
No, I don't get infestors vs blink, because it's too expense and I don't really gain map control from it and I've already upgraded my air weapons and armor, it's really killing the flow. I will try to kill his templar archives, snipe templars and magic box archons. If he's really heavy on the archos I will start getting more raoches again.
Do you mass spines at all, and if you do, how do you do it? Do you ever lower your drone count from the 80ish count to maybe 50ish when it's very late game, to increase the ratio of mutas to workers in your army?
Yes, I do mass spine when I feel like he's going to push anytime soon, it's good for both basetrading and fighting his army ead on. As for the drone count I don't stick to 80 drones, I stick to an amount that assures me a greater income, whatever that may be.
I don't know about the supply when getting my lair vs FFE but I think it's much earlier, maybe you should stick to my timings and see how it works out and then judge which style to use.
Oh, I do quite well for myself. I just had questions in general about how to best utilize mutas, not about lair timings or when to get mutas. I suppose you could say I use nesteas style. I find if you go for lair early, you will straight up die to mass gateway early pushes, and you can't deny their third.
Sorry, for some reason I didn't see the questions in the bottom ~~ I only get Hive for my upgrades, getting double spire can be a pretty bold move depeding on when you do it. I don't think it ever really pays off, but if you can afford, why not.
I don't get banelings, no.
Most of the time I lose ZvP it's because I couldn't scout anything (about 90% of my losses). Other 10% I messed something up and played too greedily or whatever. As for the best unit composition I guess you have to get blink, storm and phoenixes without doing too much stuff at the same time, or roach ling pushes will just kill you. Most of the things that counter mutas get countered by roach ling, so that'd be my response. Even if he tries to counter it with let's say a stargate and blink, that's just not enough to deal with what you got. I think if you play this style really well there's just no real way to lose a game unless you do some terrible mistake. Protoss probably lacks some anti muta, but it's too early to judge. I think protosses will have to open with at least 1stargate every game now, we'll see.
I take my 5th and 6th gas asap - when I'm safe to go mutas that is. Check out the replays and you'll see that it works out just fine (even vs allins). Hope I got em all now.
On November 11 2011 04:14 decaf wrote: edit: also, if someone has any questions regarding my build feel free to ask =) (unless it's in the OP, then I won't reply) and feel free to share your experience with this build, because I'm curious to see how it works out for you and if I have been helpful and how I can improve the guide
I'm Diamond and my ZvP was terrible; the matchup just felt gross, and it was my least favourite to play. I basically concluded lategame protoss is ridiculously stupid strong, that I was playing too passively (and thus allowing protoss to reach that stupid strong army too easily), and that getting much more aggressive would probably help enormously. I found this thread on TL and it seemed to be exactly what I was looking for; an earlygame that made sense leading into a midgame that looked genuinely scary while being SAFE and ROBUST at the same time.
And it seems to be just that! I've only had four ZvPs so far, but I've won 3 of them in a devastatingly convincing fashion and the 4th I only lost because I neglected to take my 2nd/3rd gases early enough. 4 games isn't exactly much to go on, but those games felt really, really good; very divorced from my previous ZvP experience. I'm actually looking forward to getting a ZvP now.
Thank you, great to hear I have been helpful =) Update: I changed the format of the OP a little bit. Removed some spoilers and added a proper build order so you guys don't have to read another thread. Also included what to do vs fast colossi pushes. You will now be able to find this guide also at: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255
On November 22 2011 21:12 sandg wrote: Hi, how come you do 12 pool 19 hatch rather than 11pool 18 hatch? Is there much difference?
Hey, when you do 12 pool 19 hatch you will have exactly 2 larvae and 250 minerals when your spawning pool finishes and you'll be able to make a queen and 4 lings, it's just incredibly smooth. That's the reason, it wins and loses vs the same cheeses, too.
Really sick guide you have here. I've been doing something similar (but different) lately. I open with +1 range and roaches as well to be safe any 2 base pushes but I like to only get around 15 mutas and turtle up to BLs if he gets a third. Defending certain pushes with bling ling mutas and spines. But this is probably a better way to use mutas. It feels more zerglike (more like zvt actually) where you use mobility and map control to slowly chip away at your opponent. (I might even start 12 pooling).
I have a few questions though, what do you do if they go for an early (or late) 2 base colossus push? The earlier one with double robos and the later one with 3-3 upgrades? Do you just try and go for the base trade and delay their army with spines? What are the possible ways to lose in a base race with them?
Also what do you do if they turtle really hard on 3 bases and open with blink stalkers and get HTs, plus a ton of cannons? Do you just go for the base trade or do you try and get BLs out?
Oh and what are your throughts on drone scouting with a 12 pool opening?
Quite frankly, I have been inactive for about 3 weeks, because I don't really got the time and it will take me another 2 weeks to get back. I'm saying this because I haven't really faced a lot of those 'new' responses. I mean yea, protosses were countering what I'm doing, but I don't really know how well. I assume that it's still almost the same, though. That being said: If you're talking about a colosses push that comes so early that it's an all in you have to treat it as such. I think squirtle and some other korean were doing this at IPL or something and it's insanely strong. I guess the counter to it is either mass ling roach or ling roach and a handful of corruptors. The other one you're talking about should come much later when you've already harassed him a ton so it's really up to that I'd say. The rule of thumb is always if you can't fight his army fight his buildings instead.
The turtle one is harder to predict. If you saw CrazyMoving vs HerO in gsl code A then you got a good example of it. I think the counter of protoss vs mutas is somehwat a 50/50 chance of winning if both players play equally well. So it comes down to who's the better player. You just have to have very good muta control. Still, the main point this guide is trying to make is denying the protosses third. Also I think an overreaction by protoss can always be killed by roach ling so keep scouting with an overseer.
Sorry, didn't catch your edit, just saw it. Drone scouting is not really needed, since you can spread out your first 2 overlords and lings will be so early that he can't really do anything that would go unscouted. Also the 12pool is so early that it's like you reacted to some sort of cheese while doing a later pool build after drone scouting. The only time when I do send out a drone is to check my natural when I feel suspicious. Sometimes a protoss will simply put a pylon and let it finish, you'll need 6 lings vs that or it will take you ages to out-dps a building cyber core. 2 overlords and 4 lings really are all the scouting you need.
Once again, thank you very much =) I really appreciate the time and work you've put into this and I hope that people can learn a lot from these casts. I especially like the ones vs the GM players, really well done. I'll add 'em to the OP so guys make sure to check out those casts and go subscribe his channel =)
Hi decaf, I have a question. I'm a toss player that switching to Zerg in next season, I didn't watch all the replays but from the replays I watched I didn't see much creep spread. How do you handle creep spread? Is it a stylistic choice going using all the Queen energy for injects?
EPT
