So I'm assuming for stargate builds it's something different? What do you do if the protoss manages to get his third and sits while building his deathball then moves out for a final push? Do you just base trade?

Dbla08

United States211 Posts

October 21 2011 19:04 GMT

#22

its funny, i've been doing that nestea opening as a slight stylistic difference from the 11 overpool 18 hatch, the 12/19 is simply more larvae efficient thereby safer in the early game. on large maps i've really liked using this composition in the past, almost infinite counterattacking options (map dependent ofc) and roaches are excellent for defending all-in's. i think a major point people are missing is that if you scout and see that you really don't need roaches but you've put the warren down already, oh well. you'll use it later, its not a huge investment at the point in the game. and even better, now you get to have mutas faster, as almost every strategy that doesn't favor roach play will favor mutas (dbl stargate withstanding)

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 23 2011 18:20 GMT

#23

Against stargates you can play this style as well since 1 stargate isn't really enough to keep up with the muta production, especially if he was getting vrays. If you feel like you won't be able to overpower his stargate production simply get more roach ling and go kill him.

Ideally he shouldn't be able to get his third up in the first place unless the map is really favoring his third base position like shattered temple. As mentioned in the thread you can try to minimize his forces by constat harassment or you can try to switch to broodlord infestor with a ton of spines (don't really recommend that because you already invested so much into your mutas) or place a ton of spines and go for a basetrade where it will be like 3 bases vs 7 to 8.

Unfortunately I haven't saved any of the basetrade games I played so I'm short on replays. I will add some as I go.

Chinesewonder

Canada354 Posts

October 23 2011 19:18 GMT

#24

On October 24 2011 03:20 decaf wrote:
Against stargates you can play this style as well since 1 stargate isn't really enough to keep up with the muta production, especially if he was getting vrays. If you feel like you won't be able to overpower his stargate production simply get more roach ling and go kill him.

Ideally he shouldn't be able to get his third up in the first place unless the map is really favoring his third base position like shattered temple. As mentioned in the thread you can try to minimize his forces by constat harassment or you can try to switch to broodlord infestor with a ton of spines (don't really recommend that because you already invested so much into your mutas) or place a ton of spines and go for a basetrade where it will be like 3 bases vs 7 to 8.

Unfortunately I haven't saved any of the basetrade games I played so I'm short on replays. I will add some as I go.

Ok so I tried this style out, and I like it very much. Problem for me is sometimes I can't deny the third. For example on antiga shipyard, where the 3rd is really close, I can't deny the third without taking heavy losses, also I'm kinda new to this style. Basically in that game I was on 5 base, banking mins, while I killed like 40 probes and he was on 3 base. My main problem is I didn't know how to transition. Usually I get broodlord infestor roach which just rolls the protoss, but from muta ling roach, it's kinda an awkward transition. I got some baneling drops with roaches and muta and he just did his herp derp a move push out with some colossus and stalkers and just won. Obviously, I want to be able to prepare for situations where I cant stop his third. So what is your transition to the late game?

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 23 2011 19:28 GMT

#25

Haven't really gotten to the need of transitioning out of it to be honest.
If oyu bust down the rocks leading to his third in antiga he will have to react to it, so you're pretty much free to fly your mutas into his main and wreck his economy, if he pulls all his stalkers into the main simply kill off the rest of his army. You have to abuse the mobility of your army.
I just keep massing mutas and keep upgrading, in some games I would reach like 50 mutas and take the whole map so I will have an easy win when it comes to a basetrade.
I think transitioning into broodlord might be the best choice though, becaus you're already upgrading your mutas and your lings. If he goes for heavy AA stuff get ultras instead.
I will see if I got some good replays where the opponent got his third up.

edit:
Here I got a replay on Antiga where the opponent manages to get his third up, but gets killed shortly afterwards. All the games where he managed to get his third up where basetrades with constant harass thourghtout the whole game iirc.
When I get to play some more and face better opponents again I'll deliver a handful of replays.
http://replayfu.com/r/CFCx9

Macpo

453 Posts

October 23 2011 21:08 GMT

#26

Hi decaf, I have a question: do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade?

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 23 2011 22:06 GMT

#27

On October 24 2011 06:08 Macpo wrote:
Hi decaf, I have a question: do you ever transition out of mutas or just mass them up with upgrades until he has to go for basetrade?

Answered in the user submitted questions section, ty.

RvB

Netherlands6225 Posts

October 24 2011 20:39 GMT

#28

Thanks for this guide! It helped my ZvP tremendously it's my standard ZvP atm basically.

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 25 2011 16:37 GMT

#29

http://replayfu.com/r/W5xpqj

Uploaded a replay vs an EU GM toss. I saw he was going for a third so I made a spire, he scouted it quickly and reacted with double stargate, blink, HT so I did not make any mutas at all. We play on TD cross positions.
Although I didn't make mutas I had the intention to. Just showcasin that you don't have to make mutas just because you made a spire.

Tachion

Canada8573 Posts

October 25 2011 16:49 GMT

#30

This is a good guide, and has been my go-to strat for ZvP for quite awhile. Roach/ling is so strong at holding off 2 base pushes, and you have so much gas left with 3 bases worth that mutas just seem like a natural transition.
I switched to P for awhile recently for fun and got so many free wins from zergs who try to open up straight into ling/muta. It just dies so easily to 2 base gateway timings. More Zergs need to open up the way detailed in this guide.

Whole

United States6046 Posts

October 25 2011 23:39 GMT

#31

I don't know if it is just me, but the links say "replay not found."

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 26 2011 11:34 GMT

#32

On October 26 2011 08:39 Whole wrote:
I don't know if it is just me, but the links say "replay not found."

The replaysite doesn't work one out of 3 times when you click on it, dunno why. If it doesn't work for you the first time just try to open the link again, it will work eventually. No idea what's up with that, but I get those error messages as well, try it again and there you go.

Whole

United States6046 Posts

October 26 2011 11:36 GMT

#33

kk thank you. I didn't realize how bad the infestor nerf was until my 5 early Infestors (with Roach/Ling support) weren't doing jackshit vs a 2 base all-in.

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 29 2011 23:31 GMT

#34

Alright, added 2 more replays. One vs a GM toss ( http://replayfu.com/r/KJBcJr ) who went for a standard build including a third base on tal'darim cross positions and one vs some protoss ( http://replayfu.com/r/m94Tcd ) who went for DTs into archon immortal (no all in).

I even had a game vs a guy going for double stargate and I was barely able to overcome his all in after he lost his eco, but replayfu doesn't like that replay for some reason :/ I still don't recomment going mutas vs it though (although I did).
In another game a protoss was blindly cannonrushing me and it failed hard although I didn't even scout it due to my 12pool. Just proving that it indeed is a very safe build. Enjoy.

GoldTalon

United States43 Posts

October 30 2011 13:54 GMT

#35

In my experience, this build doesn't seem to work against someone stalker-heavy (I mean REALLY stalker heavy, like less than 10 sentries/zealots). If they're just massing stalkers, should you just go standard roach-hydra? Archons aren't fun either.

BTW, I'm just high plat, so I might be doing something wrong, like not harassing well or trying to engage directly.

Also (again, might be bad macro), there seems to be a massive mineral surplus. Should one just mass spines both as a mineral dump and to free up supply when you already have a good econ?

decaf

Austria1797 Posts

October 30 2011 15:33 GMT

#36

I think that's a platinum league problem. If your only response to mutas is stalkers, which suck vs roaches, lings and mutas then you're going to lose that game. I suggest watching some of the replays. Unless it's an all in, which crushes muta play, you should be very well off vs that.
Against all ins you cam make hydras though, they're _great_ vs all ins, but lose you any game that goes on for any longer. And you have to magix box the archons just like you do with thors.

For the mineral surplus I recommend building macro hatcheries and expansions as well as lings. I don't know about your injects but mine tend to be perfect most of the time very deep into the game so I don't really have that problem. You can also mass spines if you feel like it.

KriBern

Sweden1 Post

October 30 2011 23:44 GMT

#37

Nice guide. This is how i play ZvP now

Denzil

United Kingdom4193 Posts

October 31 2011 00:09 GMT

#38

Really feel this is the future of how to play ZvP (until HOTS at least), I tried a variation of the style that I presumed had the same goal but really struggled with the applying pressure because of the lack of an eco / gas advantage to create the scary muta flock. Following this more closely has improved my style pretty damn well.

good guide well thought out.

Corsica

Ukraine1854 Posts

October 31 2011 00:30 GMT

#39

Thats some epic shit guys! Learn it! This circles on ladder currently and I have so much trouble with this unit composition

Rigorous

74 Posts

October 31 2011 00:45 GMT

#40

Masters toss here. Colossus and HT tech destroy this. One bad engagement from zerg, and its gg.

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