EPTConclusion: Mutas are good units
[G] ZvP Roach Ling Muta - Page 3
| Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy |
|
BasicBarcode
United States56 Posts
Conclusion: Mutas are good units | ||
|
sagefreke
United States241 Posts
On October 31 2011 09:45 Rigorous wrote: Masters toss here. Colossus and HT tech destroy this. One bad engagement from zerg, and its gg. How is a toss player going to get HT, Collossus tech and be able to make gateway units and upgrades 15 minutes in the game? By the time Toss has that Zerg should be getting Ultras by then. Also the guide specifically stated to avoid direct engagements with the army unless it's unavoidable. . | ||
|
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On October 31 2011 17:17 sagefreke wrote: How is a toss player going to get HT, Collossus tech and be able to make gateway units and upgrades 15 minutes in the game? By the time Toss has that Zerg should be getting Ultras by then. Also the guide specifically stated to avoid direct engagements with the army unless it's unavoidable. . One thing i'll never understand is when going muta's why don't you just go broodlords instead of ultra's (which in general toss can counter very very easily...). I have never understood why you would want to go ultra's when you have the spire already, you have muta's why not just add broodlords into the mix? Thats what I do and I personally find it much more effective then ultra's xD. But off of 3 bases a toss can get both at a decent time but templar should be the main focus and adding in colossi later vs muta builds imo. | ||
|
Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
 . Mutalisks should only be made after you stop a timing or when you see P takes his third. Randomly starting mutalisks never works. It's ling speed -> +1melee or +1ranged attacks -> lair -> roach speed. Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? I prefer going lair first, I get my roach speed faster and I can get a fast overseer. Only after scouting my opponent I start upgrading accordingly. Sometimes you can even get fast burrow and really destroy sentry pushes. I feel that there is no risk in getting that lair before +1, and that lair gives you a bigger potential advantage. Is there a timing that you defend with your +1? Free funny story: yesterday I played my first match for season 4, it was against a P who massed blink stalkers after a sentry push that did no damage but I couldn't kill any sentries as well, we went for a basetrade and it resulted in a tie. We killed each others last building in the exact same second. | ||
|
NeonFox
2373 Posts
On October 31 2011 17:40 Koshi wrote: [/u]After your post I have been using more mutalisks. Your guide makes more sense after you played this style though . Mutalisks should only be made after you stop a timing or when you see P takes his third. Randomly starting mutalisks never works. Is there a reason why you go +1 before lair? I don't really see the point in getting a random +1 to melee or range, how do you decide which one to take? I prefer going lair first, I get my roach speed faster and I can get a fast overseer. Only after scouting my opponent I start upgrading accordingly. Sometimes you can even get fast burrow and really destroy sentry pushes. I feel that there is no risk in getting that lair before +1, and that lair gives you a bigger potential advantage. Is there a timing that you defend with your +1? I can't answer for him but for myself getting that lair later makes it so that you can have more drones (not because of the difference in cost from +1 and lair but because of the cost of the researches and buildings you get up once lair is done) and you don't really need lair that early, you should know what he's doing and you only need a spore for detection. I get my +1 melee just in time for 6-7 gates, it helps a lot against them lings shred sentries and stalkers, and from 3 hatches you can flood roaches and lings since you have more drones then if you went for an earlier lair. Basically it's delaying tech for more economy/production, both styles are fine and have their weaknesses. | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
First off you will have upgrades faster, the +1 attack upgrade finishes by the time an all in would come (or shortly after that) and you will be able to get your second upgrade faster. Now the reason why I get the upgrade before lair is because it buys me some more time. I always get my second gas when I start my lair to keep smoothly producing (roaches and roach speed). So when I get my lair earlier it also means I will have to get gas earlier and buy the upgrades earlier. My economy simply won't be as good as when I waited a little bit longer. Usually when I do ling speed -> upgrade -> lair it will work out so my roach warren is ready before the lair finishes, I've started my ugrade and I can get some roaches. It's just better imo. I worked a long time on the gas timings and I found this to be the best way to manage it. I'll add this to the user submitted questions section, thanks. As for +1 melee or +1 ranged attacks: It's personal preference. Julyzerg gets the +1melee, NesTea gets the +1 ranged attacks. I started off doing julyzerg's style (who gave me the inspiration to start this build in the first place), but the +1 melee is rather weak vs all ins, where I will be very roach heavy. Nowadays I will always get +1 ranged attacks and then switch to melee and carapace upgrades. | ||
|
Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
I will change my BO to +1 ranged before lair. I need a good gameplan against Protoss, which is my weakest matchup by far. Especially when they do 1 base timings and early 2 base timings I am extremely vulnerable. Your BO is easy to remember/execute. Lair after 300 gas and then a second geyser. 3rd and 4th geyser when 2 bases are saturated. If you have time. Could you add 1 more paragraph to your guide, what you do while waiting for the moment mutalisks are an option? In my opinion building a spire really doesn't work if your opponent hasn't attacked you yet, or when he does a "late" expand on 3 gates. These moments are difficult when mutalisks are in my head: 1) Normal 3gate expand around minute 6:00 with sentries. Q: Do you make those 20 lings around minute 5:20 to denie/delay the third? Or do you wait and try to crush the first poke with sentries/gateway on a superior economy? Or just scare that first poke away? 2) FFE, I get my third around minute 5. I produce units around minute 7:30, and the Protoss just stays in his base, and I don't know when he will move out. Do I play Ling/Roach/Corrupter get 4th and hive? What if he takes his third very late, but still turtles. No mutalisks this game? 3) What is your gameplan after you just killed/scared away 3DTs around the 6:50 minute mark with your sporecrawler? Because this gets followed up with mass speed zealot + archon a lot. | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
Producing units at 7:30 is way too early, 8:30 is the way to go (vs FFE). You should always morph an overseer anyways, it doesn't really cost anything and it gives you so great scouting. If the protoss player doesn't move out for some reason take the time to get 3 base saturation and then make further units after that. If the protoss never gets a third your 3 base eco will be enough to deal with everything he got. You cannot really harass though, because 2 base doesn't spread him out at all, I suggest throwing waves of units at him to slowly wear him down (don't lose your mutas though). If he does take a very late third he's doing a very bad build that doesn't do anything specifically well I feel, from that point you should be able to harass him quite well. The suggestion of making units at 8:30 is for people who are unsure what they are up against. If you know for a fact that he's not going to move out just add 15 more drones before making any units and throw down a spire immediately. I think you might be getting the spire too early. Only do it when you're safe. Most of the time that's the case when you secured your third. You have to play this build a couple of times to get a feeling for that. Against DTs I usually defend it, macro up a little bit, get mutas, do some economic damage and then move in for the kill. Most of the time the protoss will just leave when he realizes he hasn't done enough damage with it. You'll find a replay vs DT play in the OP. Just make sure to watch some of the replays displaying the situations you have problems with and more importantly play a couple of games with this build. You'll get a grip on it as your experience grow with it. | ||
|
Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
What I've discovered is that if I get roaches up and a reasonably timed third, I can just get a macro hatch and go for 4queen4hatch larvae production so I can flood with insane amounts of zerglings quickly if an attack is coming in. After those hatches I put down the spire and incase I need to build a lot of zerglings I collect enough gas for the mutalisks. If I see a forge upgrading I'll get a +1 carapace upgrade instead of a +1 range so I can make sure the zerglings survive for long enough. I've finally nailed a good ZvP midgame that can move onto the lategame that I lacked for so long, thank you so much. | ||
|
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If they decide to not go for an all-in but a 3rd base instead then a batch of muta's (about 7-8) is insanely good. Gives instant map control and does lots of damage on average, muta's mixed with corruptors are a fine counter to colossi as well. Muta's are basically the reason I don't like robo first builds too much, not enough pressure and not enough AA when doing that, giving too big a oppurtunity for muta. I don't advise going muta against a stargate opener though, already having the stargate out makes getting phoenix really easy and once phoenix are out muta kind of lose their power. Sure a batch of muta's can temporarily gain map control and do good damage but overall often not worth it against a stargate i think. | ||
|
Gen_Syntax
25 Posts
One question, how do you deal with early void rays or phoenix? i always have trouble with VRs denying third and also phoenix harass. | ||
|
kushm4sta
United States8878 Posts
| ||
|
madzumo
United States10 Posts
so do you ever incorporate Infestors at all to to slow down Blinks or don't bother? On a different note I almost died laughing when you made the zerglings do a break dance twist at the end of the game while playing against a very rude 'imakki' (what a loser!). That was hilarious. did you do that on purpose? | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
In this case I'm defending with mutas because I had so many ressources banked up that there was no way he would be able to overpower my muta count (I build 17 simultaneously). Most protosses go for 1 stargate, get 1vray and a couple of phoenixes and transition into colossi, which would be really good vs hydra play, but loses quite hard vs muta play. Note how I covered my spire with overlords to deny scouting. I think defending with queens/spores and some spines and roaches if he addes gateway units to his little push is totally fine vs just 1 stargate. @kushm4sta: answered in the OP @madzumo: I don't use infestors anymore in ZvP | ||
|
KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
Hope you guys enjoy it! + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
| ||
|
Hairy
United Kingdom1169 Posts
On November 03 2011 13:59 KangaRuthless wrote: Here is the intro cast for this strategy. Hope you guys enjoy it! + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWvymAEJRnU Nice cast! Some suggestions:-You repeat yourself a little bit -(minor)You contradict yourself when talking about his early lings being active (you said it, then you went back on what you said when you saw a ling was idle). It's fine, relax! His lings WERE being active, what you said was definitely correct, one was just idle for a moment. Don't worry about being "hyper" accurate, as contradicting yourself hurts your credibility. -You didn't focus much on decaf's build order. This is probably the bigger point as the cast (seems to be) intended to demonstrate decaf's build and style of play, but many important parts of the build you didn't cover - what time we take our gas; when we take our evo chamber; when we start lair; when do we start our roach warren, when do we take more geysers, when should we take our third. Do we need a macro hatch? You did not talk about any of these things, so I had to go back through the cast to note these things myself. Otherwise great, I enjoyed it quite a bit. =) I found it pretty useful as my ZvP feels horrible, and I've been looking for something just like this style of play to learn. | ||
|
KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
On November 04 2011 00:26 Hairy wrote: Nice cast! Some suggestions:-You repeat yourself a little bit -(minor)You contradict yourself when talking about his early lings being active (you said it, then you went back on what you said when you saw a ling was idle). It's fine, relax! His lings WERE being active, what you said was definitely correct, one was just idle for a moment. Don't worry about being "hyper" accurate, as contradicting yourself hurts your credibility. -You didn't focus much on decaf's build order. This is probably the bigger point as the cast (seems to be) intended to demonstrate decaf's build and style of play, but many important parts of the build you didn't cover - what time we take our gas; when we take our evo chamber; when we start lair; when do we start our roach warren, when do we take more geysers, when should we take our third. Do we need a macro hatch? You did not talk about any of these things, so I had to go back through the cast to note these things myself. Otherwise great, I enjoyed it quite a bit. =) I found it pretty useful as my ZvP feels horrible, and I've been looking for something just like this style of play to learn. That's some solid feedback! I feel like decaf's timings on Roach Warren/Evo are less about "make X at 45 supply" and more like "because I am playing on X map and my opponent is doing Y, I can make my Roach Warren and Evo Chamber around this time." As a rule of thumb, it would make sense to build the Roach Warren + Evo at around 40ish supply, and if the map is larger, then maybe delay for a few more Drones. It all has to do with scouting, map size, and spawning locations. However, I'll take this into account and try to touch on this more in the next few casts. Also, I've noticed that I have a tendency to repeat myself. It would be helpful for me to relax more while casting and have more of a "script" to follow than to wing it like I usually do  Again, thanks for the feedback! By the way, Game 2 is up, and I'll be re-casting games 4&5 so I can focus more on things like the build order and what the spawning locations/map mean for the build. Game 2 Game 3 | ||
|
decaf
Austria1797 Posts
ChakrA is Liquid'Drone btw. | ||
|
KangaRuthless
United States304 Posts
Part 4 focuses very heavily on the build order, I get a little distracted in part 5, but we still focus on the build order and decisions made. Anyways, here's the VODs: VOD 5 temporarily unavailable while I recast the game...sorry! Feel free to provide more feedback! | ||
| ||
