EPTPvZ simple cheese with ~80% w/r in high masters - Page 4
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rokbe
Netherlands17 Posts
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EvilZergling
United States194 Posts
I simply allow him to cannon up while I rush to 3 queens, 2 spines and pure drones. Once I'm ready to take out the cannons I move my spines up to the ramp to attack the cannons and pylons while making 6-8 lings and then use my queens and lings to kill whatever is left from what my spines can't reach. The thing is to focus on timings and ignore that you are forced to one base. I normally aim for a 5min evo, 545ish +1 melee. Normally break down the block in around 6 and expand immediately. Take a fast 3rd and lair at 750ish. The rush to 3 queens is perfect because the normal follow up seems to be air play using phoenix and/or voidray and the 3 fast queens make it really easy to defend while you have the lings with +1 at the ready. You just keep poking the front and doing runby's. I've done so much damage doing just runbys and can normally win the game right then and there. If not, I just tech like normal, infestation pit after lair get +2 melee and keep going. | ||
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Orangu
Canada198 Posts
On September 14 2011 20:50 iNkopwnz wrote: k ill ask u a question, why cheeses exist? and to ur question my answer is simple, if u train with pros ull become good faster than when ur training with ur lvl ppl Cheese keeps tournament play interesting in BOX situations, BO1 everyone hates it unless its cool or really well executed cheese, cannon wall in doesn't count as either. I also don't think cheesing random people on ladder, whether they are really good or not counts as training. The skill set required to play standup games with ppl that know how to is completely different from cheesing a person, even if you have to follow up or not since as soon as that wall goes down, P gets a significant advantage, enough to win if he follows through properly. So you are going to be less likely to be able to gain an advantage in other ways since you have not played enough to learn them. That being said it is good to know a cheese well if you plan on playing in tournaments, or if you just want to have fun on ladder thats fine too, but don't say that one of the best ways to learn to play is to cheese cause whether your cheesing a bronze or a GM, if they don't know how to respond to a wall in or mess it up they will lose since they will offer no challenge in the rest of the game. All you've done is learned how to put down a wall. | ||
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kedinik
United States352 Posts
On September 14 2011 23:10 shadymmj wrote: this isn't cheese, it's reactionary. it's an FFE with the potential to punish hatch first. to stop this, stop making a naked hatch. it's not the maps fault. the end. ??? This is a cheese that hits before 100% standard 14-pool play can possibly have lings out in time. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
... funny tread xD | ||
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mage36
415 Posts
On September 14 2011 23:18 EvilZergling wrote: This happens to me all the time and I must say I've gotten really good at still winning these types of games. I simply allow him to cannon up while I rush to 3 queens, 2 spines and pure drones. Once I'm ready to take out the cannons I move my spines up to the ramp to attack the cannons and pylons while making 6-8 lings and then use my queens and lings to kill whatever is left from what my spines can't reach. The thing is to focus on timings and ignore that you are forced to one base. I normally aim for a 5min evo, 545ish +1 melee. Normally break down the block in around 6 and expand immediately. Take a fast 3rd and lair at 750ish. The rush to 3 queens is perfect because the normal follow up seems to be air play using phoenix and/or voidray and the 3 fast queens make it really easy to defend while you have the lings with +1 at the ready. You just keep poking the front and doing runby's. I've done so much damage doing just runbys and can normally win the game right then and there. If not, I just tech like normal, infestation pit after lair get +2 melee and keep going. I find the biggest problem with people doing this sort of cheese is that they get too confident and start to relax and don't make use of their advantage, thinking they've already won. If they just played safe, ling runbys won't happen. Zerg won't be able to take a quick 3rd because of the air units that are already out by the time you do and have an army in time to keep them from droning up too much at their natural even. I agree with you that nydus are usually not effective because that is what an alert protoss is expecting almost all the time and the only way to catch up is getting an early third because the toss expo is so way ahead of yours. | ||
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decaf
Austria1797 Posts
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hocash
United States82 Posts
It is very effective, though better players will easily stop it by simply patrolling a drone at the base of the ramp. I prefer not to expand and just 5 gate them all in after the delay with +1 attack. Unless he's gone very heavy on spine crawlers you take an auto win. If he does you just take an expo and hold his off as long as you can. Waiting too long to attack makes you susceptible to nydus play. If they nydus outside your expo they will break your wall in fast if all your units are outside his main containing him. | ||
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Girondelle
France969 Posts
I did a 14 pool 16 hatch and died to it, you cannot kill the wall fast enough. I guess the drone patrol is the only safe option. | ||
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ssartor
United States129 Posts
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Girondelle
France969 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:07 ssartor wrote: I think this will be nerfed slightly with 1.4. The sight up a ramp will be reduced by 1 therefore increasing the number of roaches able to shoot the cannon without being shot back. It has never occured to me, this is true, maybe you can kill the wall with roaches more easily. But still, you never wanna stay on base as zerg, the drone patrol allows you to play in your confort zone. | ||
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rudejohn
United States19 Posts
On September 14 2011 22:42 mage36 wrote: And practice with the drone drill technique too. And I don't think a vast majority of the people on ladder actually know about it yet. If I don't have a Protoss partner around on a given night, is there a decent way to practice the drone drill technique (custom map or trick with AI players)? Thanks, ~rj | ||
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Girondelle
France969 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:11 rudejohn wrote: If I don't have a Protoss partner around on a given night, is there a decent way to practice the drone drill technique (custom map or trick with AI players)? Thanks, ~rj Play against very easy A.I., pick protoss and use your probes to kill the wall you built. | ||
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McGuire72
Canada140 Posts
Here's the counter for it, Zergies, and it doesn't involve nydus worms, roach burrow, or 1 base muta (LOL). Go 14 pool 21 hatch, and patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp if you scout a forge first, or any sort of sketchy probe movement. Play standard. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to start my new thread.... "NEW AWESOME ZERG CHEESE-- CHEESE YOUR WAY TO MASTER LEAGUE!! I CALL IT 'THE 6 POOL'!!!" | ||
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ThE_OsToJiY
Canada1167 Posts
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Sox
United States13 Posts
Roaches also own early sim city designs for cannons as there's always a weak spot in the wall with only 1 cannon or no cannons protecting certain key buildings or the mineral line. | ||
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mage36
415 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:10 Girondelle wrote: It has never occured to me, this is true, maybe you can kill the wall with roaches more easily. But still, you never wanna stay on base as zerg, the drone patrol allows you to play in your confort zone. I'm not sure if this will help. unless the toss player commits to really containing you like adding more cannons and stuff. But usually they just expand behind maybe 1, at most 2 cannons down at your natural and macro up. Plus all he needs to see are the front roaches. I'm not sure, but shouldn't the cannon be far enough from the ramp that your roaches will have to still move down enough to be seen? Oh well.. I'll find out when the new patch comes out. Regardless, I think the damage has already been done when he makes you build a significant force before you get your expo up. and he has been able to get his set up comfortably while you are stuck with one, which is never a good position to be in as zerg. | ||
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McGuire72
Canada140 Posts
On September 14 2011 20:43 iNkopwnz wrote: i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused? The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special. And fellow Zergs, I'm going to reiterate... the counter to this build is NOT to build 3 spines and take it out from the high ground... or go 1 base muta... or do the super obvious nydus play... The counter to his build is to stop it before it happens. Go 14 pool ALWAYS against protoss, and patrol a drone at your ramp until you get a set of lings out. The cheese is now null and void. Expo and play standard. Sure, you lose... what... 75 minerals' worth of mining time from the drone? But now you can expo in time, or even double expo, and you're not wasting larva and resources that should be going into drones by building spines or roaches to bust out. One base nydus is just retarded. Any Protoss that doesn't exepect and prepare for a nydus is just asking to lose. | ||
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transience
Belgium74 Posts
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mage36
415 Posts
On September 15 2011 00:33 McGuire72 wrote: The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special. And fellow Zergs, I'm going to reiterate... the counter to this build is NOT to build 3 spines and take it out from the high ground... or go 1 base muta... or do the super obvious nydus play... The counter to his build is to stop it before it happens. Go 14 pool ALWAYS against protoss, and patrol a drone at your ramp until you get a set of lings out. The cheese is now null and void. Expo and play standard. Sure, you lose... what... 75 minerals' worth of mining time from the drone? But now you can expo in time, or even double expo, and you're not wasting larva and resources that should be going into drones by building spines or roaches to bust out. One base nydus is just retarded. Any Protoss that doesn't exepect and prepare for a nydus is just asking to lose. I must agree with you! this is the best way because the toss is satisfied you didn't get hatch first and the zerg is satisfied that the toss didn't get to wall off his ramp. And yes, Nydus is too predictable to work for toss players who do this every game while mutas will die to the common follow up for the toss which is stargate with several gateways. even if you do damage with mutas, it won't justify being on one base. Edit: with mutas, at the end of the day, you'll still be on one base. while you may disrupt mining for one of his bases for a time until he gets stalkers and/or phx to hold off your mutas. Edit 2: I think this is also better than 11 pool because while you use a drone to patrol your ramp, it is still more economical. | ||
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