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On February 07 2012 04:09 weikor wrote:
Another pretty good way of dealing with this, is breaking out with a spine (break the wall) a few lings and a queen while having made constant Drones in the back. you get to saturate your natural instantly, have a healthy surplus of gas (for the tech you want), and even take a relatively quick third.
Dont forget that this has put the protoss WAY behind in tech, expanding, probe production and units lost (at least 600 minerals 3 pylon 1 cannon + he needs at least 1 cannon at his base usually more if you break out)
He can use his flawed production to do one of a few things :
Expand (economy)
tech quickly (tech)
or followup pressure (army)
this isnt as terrifying as it seems to be honest
Yea thats what I do, I generally go for quick infestors after this, because il be so stressed for minerals for a bit, while there are no colossi for a good while, getting them early lets them generate energy and you can use them to deal with any form of follow up from protoss.
Still they should add depots, balance aside, games that play out like this just arnt enjoyable.
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I just patrol the ramp, a relative mineral loss but 70% of the Protoss are doing this strategy, better than being locked imo.
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This is slowly becoming popular again. A drone on patrol is pretty much a must on the smaller maps where you can just go directly to your opponent (xel'naga, that new arid map). Other than that I don't think it's gamebreaking. A drone scout on 9 or 10 reveals what your opponent is up to/capable of and you should act accordingly. The fact that this gives a 80% winrate in masters is probably people who haven't seen it often enough.
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What Zerg player tries hatch first against toss? Isn't it pointless because of pylon blocks, cannons, etc? A 14 pool should bust through, right? And if it doesn't, proxy hatch or hydra nydus should kill him if he goes to 2 base after blocking you?
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Well a hatch first build is always possible on larger maps. Since larger maps usually makes the zerg player feel safer. However considering this focuses mainly on maps with a narrow ramp. It's not unheard of for a spine crawler or roach bust since you can just use 3 roaches and break the pylons.
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On February 08 2012 02:26 Advocado wrote:
This is slowly becoming popular again. A drone on patrol is pretty much a must on the smaller maps where you can just go directly to your opponent (xel'naga, that new arid map). Other than that I don't think it's gamebreaking. A drone scout on 9 or 10 reveals what your opponent is up to/capable of and you should act accordingly. The fact that this gives a 80% winrate in masters is probably people who haven't seen it often enough.
The worst part about this is that I believe it skews the winrate PvZ on the ladder toward Protoss. And because David Kim has said he doesn't watch the GSL and we've seen Blizzard release ladder statistics supporting their balance decisions, this is bad.
Still, it is an awesomely powerful strategy.
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On February 07 2012 04:09 weikor wrote:
Another pretty good way of dealing with this, is breaking out with a spine (break the wall) a few lings and a queen while having made constant Drones in the back. you get to saturate your natural instantly, have a healthy surplus of gas (for the tech you want), and even take a relatively quick third.
Dont forget that this has put the protoss WAY behind in tech, expanding, probe production and units lost (at least 600 minerals 3 pylon 1 cannon + he needs at least 1 cannon at his base usually more if you break out)
He can use his flawed production to do one of a few things :
Expand (economy)
tech quickly (tech)
or followup pressure (army)
this isnt as terrifying as it seems to be honest
I do this as well, only I'll tweak it by adding a macro hatch in my main (before I break out) and adding extra queens, all the while I'm doing this I just make a metric fuck tonne of drones. Like you said, once you break out (I'll generally spread creep out to add spines, or use the creep from the macro hatch), your natural is instantly saturated and your production (with the macro hatch) goes through the roof.
Usually I catch the Protoss of guard because they didn't expect me to have so much econ and army after being "stuck" like that.
Of course, there's always the nydus/drop route - and if I nydus, it's almost never in or at their base, usually just outside mine for a flank or contain break. Most Protoss that do this are cautious about the in-base nydus.
Silly strat, though. I find stuff like this so gauche.
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On February 08 2012 02:43 DoctorFunk wrote:
What Zerg player tries hatch first against toss? Isn't it pointless because of pylon blocks, cannons, etc? A 14 pool should bust through, right? And if it doesn't, proxy hatch or hydra nydus should kill him if he goes to 2 base after blocking you?
That's what I thought as well, as someone tried this. But if you go gassless 14pool, the canon is up before the the lings can kill the wall.
Also, P does not have to expand of this. Kiwikaki did a guide in this forum on 3pylon block into 1base blink stalker and though haven't played against it, judging from the guide and its replays, it looks very potent.
The worst part of this build is, that if you don't have an overlord at your opponent or a scout out before the block, you will have no clue wether you allin/"macro" against a 1base or 2base toss.
I think the best build to do is 14g/14p in this situation, because then you can just go roach/ling allin, or do some techy one base cheese (nydus or mutas) of it. (there is a guide one 1base mutas vs FFE somewhere in this forum; it's not really a good build imo, but if your opponent does this pylon block, it becomes incredibly powerful, because your opponent will have delayed stalkers/warp gate and 6-7min mutas are quite fast  )
On February 08 2012 03:14 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2012 02:26 Advocado wrote:
This is slowly becoming popular again. A drone on patrol is pretty much a must on the smaller maps where you can just go directly to your opponent (xel'naga, that new arid map). Other than that I don't think it's gamebreaking. A drone scout on 9 or 10 reveals what your opponent is up to/capable of and you should act accordingly. The fact that this gives a 80% winrate in masters is probably people who haven't seen it often enough. The worst part about this is that I believe it skews the winrate PvZ on the ladder toward Protoss. And because David Kim has said he doesn't watch the GSL and we've seen Blizzard release ladder statistics supporting their balance decisions, this is bad. Still, it is an awesomely powerful strategy.
I think you have misinterpreted something David Kim said, because blizzard always says that they look at every region seperatly and they look at ladder and tournaments when balancing the game. Doesn't mean that I think they should emphasize on ladder balance, yet I think we all can agree that it would be a terrible game if one race would be just way harder/easier than the others.
Also, there are a lot of builds that are way more powerful on the ladder, than in tournament play for every race, due to the skilldifference between pros and amateurs, so it is quite hard to blame ladderwinrates on single builds.
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Isn't this strategy, I dunno, insanely outdated?
1. Neutral depot blocks wall off on most maps
2. Zerg says lol, and proceeds to nydus bust you.
3. Zerg says lol, builds a spine crawler (150 minerals total, compared to 450+ for wall-in), busts it down and then macrostomps you.
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On February 08 2012 06:51 ticklishmusic wrote:
Isn't this strategy, I dunno, insanely outdated?
1. Neutral depot blocks wall off on most maps
2. Zerg says lol, and proceeds to nydus bust you.
3. Zerg says lol, builds a spine crawler (150 minerals total, compared to 450+ for wall-in), busts it down and then macrostomps you.
1. not on ladder
2. that's adressed in the OP
3. he needs creep near the ramp, which means he needs to wait for a queen and a creep tumor (or two)
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Something similar happened to me recently and I cried. 3 pylon wall into lots of cannons (like 6) into 2 proxy stargate VR's. I killed the 3 pylons with roaches but I wasnt able to actually leave my base because 6 cannons at the bottom of your ramp is ridiculous.
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Top masters, have no problems with this  - just drone drill and if it doesn't work for the map just keep drone close.
The key is that it delays the core by a year. So the zerg is free to drone up and easily make up the drone drill. And stargates aren't scary because its easily scouted and late core delays stargate
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I haven't lost when people do this to me. While nydus can be stopped, IMO it is the best reaction to this Play.
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On February 08 2012 09:32 Facultyadjutant wrote:Top masters, have no problems with this - just drone drill and if it doesn't work for the map just keep drone close. The key is that it delays the core by a year. So the zerg is free to drone up and easily make up the drone drill. And stargates aren't scary because its easily scouted and late core delays stargate
It was on shattered temple when it happened to me, and I didnt know you could drone drill using a far away base (and I havent used camera hotkeys before). I died around 10 or 11 minutes in. It was definitely an all-in move, but really... what is a 1 base zerg going to do to defend against a proxy 2 stargate VR.
I basically did what I shouldve done... got some roaches to break it (break failed), drone hard, get lair to nydus out. I died when my nydus finished. I MIGHT have been OK had I seen the stargates, but odds were against me.
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EPT
