Sup guys, iv seen many ppl struggling with PvZ, so if u want like a 80% win rate vs zergs on ladder (im high masters ~1300 pts and this works almost every time), just do the 3pylon ramp block..
Basically heres how its done: At 8 supply rally ur probe from nexus to ur nat At 9 build a pylon at ur nat and send that probe to scout At 13 build a forge At 17 u should have ~250 minerals, go down to zergs ramp and build 3 pylons like this After they r done building, put 1 cannon there
if zerg tries to do that 'drill' bull****, just reinforce the wall with pylons and gates, depending on witch pylon he tries to brake
Once he brakes one of the pylons and realizes that theres a new wall being built and the cannon is almost done, he will retread his units (or even leave right there), u should cancel the morphing gate+pylon and place a new pylon completing the 3pylon wall again (i mean replace the pylon that was just destroyed)
After the zerg is trapped in his base, u should expand and just macro up for a bit. If the zerg doesnt try to brake out his wall, just prepare for some nydus/overloard drop/muta play from him (i usually get fast warpgate and build 6gates)
If you see roaches killing the wall, build some cannons in ur expo and u should be fine as long as ur simcity is good
Notes: After the ramp block is completed and cannon is already morphed, scout for hidden expos with that probe
When ur building the ramp block, send 1 probe to ur expo to block his drone from building a hatchery there
This works very good if zerg goes for hatch first or ~14pool
I dont recommend doing this every matchup, because ur game sense / skill or w/e its called will drop eventually (now i do this myself only if i see zerg going hatch before pool)
Yeah, that "amazing" dronedrill is bullshit. I have practiced it with a friend and even if you do it almost perfectly you lose a ton of time and they can simply put a gateway and cancel it. Once the cannon is up you can't do anything anymore.
Best thing to do for zerg is to 9 scout himself, if protoss wallins you with 3 pylons just go rofl and expand on another main. Pretty easy win from there .
Drill trick is actually quite useless since like the OP said, you can easily reinforce the wall and you lose almost all of your drone mining time. This build can be stopped if you go for something like 11 pool and just build 1 set of lings as the timing allows you to prevent any pylon blocks. OR you can always patrol a drone.
This kind of BS is why tournaments put a neutral depot at the bottom of ramps. It is too easy to pull off while the zerg is always very far behind if he fails to prevent it.
ye like i said guys, this is only for free ladder points, its easily done. But zerg have the same 'bullshit' strategy in the late game, its called brood infestor :p
a lot of cheesy idiots technical players do this to me, and it always kills me if i cant prevent it from happening every time
and it's not really easily beaten by 11 pool, i mean i usually go for 12 pool and if i dont have a drone to harass that probe he can get the walling completed
On September 14 2011 18:18 Koshi wrote: Yeah, that "amazing" dronedrill is bullshit. I have practiced it with a friend and even if you do it almost perfectly you lose a ton of time and they can simply put a gateway and cancel it. Once the cannon is up you can't do anything anymore.
Best thing to do for zerg is to 9 scout himself, if protoss wallins you with 3 pylons just go rofl and expand on another main. Pretty easy win from there .
unless the Protoss is above Gold and scouts for it and kills it with 1 pylon 1 canon
This is the reason that I've been 11 overpooling except in certain maps recently -_- but once you do the 11 overpool, you're totally fine and this won't be able to do any damage on you as long as you have the micro capabilities of at least a kindergartner.
How do you counter all-in from zerg after he breaks it with spinecrawler/roaches or gets nydus to your base or in front of it and baneling busts you, after you invest 500 minerals and even more if you reinforce your wall with those gates and propably expand behind it?
On September 14 2011 18:40 Dariusz wrote: How do you counter all-in from zerg after he breaks it with spinecrawler/roaches or gets nydus to your base or in front of it and baneling busts you, after you invest 500 minerals and even more if you reinforce your wall with those gates and propably expand behind it?
cannons and decent sim city. and pylons all around your main to scout for nyduses.
On September 14 2011 18:33 Geo.Rion wrote: a lot of cheesy idiots technical players do this to me, and it always kills me if i cant prevent it from happening every time
and it's not really easily beaten by 11 pool, i mean i usually go for 12 pool and if i dont have a drone to harass that probe he can get the walling completed
On September 14 2011 18:18 Koshi wrote: Yeah, that "amazing" dronedrill is bullshit. I have practiced it with a friend and even if you do it almost perfectly you lose a ton of time and they can simply put a gateway and cancel it. Once the cannon is up you can't do anything anymore.
Best thing to do for zerg is to 9 scout himself, if protoss wallins you with 3 pylons just go rofl and expand on another main. Pretty easy win from there .
unless the Protoss is above Gold and scouts for it and kills it with 1 pylon 1 canon
Well, you are obliged to do it. I currently have 850 points in Masters, but I am under that line were the good Masters are, and it didn't get scouted last game.
And there is no other viable strat to do when the wallin starts. You are going to have those excess 300 minerals and making a macro hatch in your main is silly. It isn't that bad to let the Protoss make another pylon + cannon if he finds it.
I always try to mine 100 gas -->lair -->nydus to my third -->expand there --> clear natural with roaches--> take 3rd ---> Lose against Protoss deathball.
@iNkopwnz I am actually interested in reading how you lose the 20% of your games doing this. Can you answer these 3 questions? Because I don' t face this enough to know how to beat it.
1) In the beginning I tried to Nydus into his base, which doesn't work, even if I use 2 nydus. Then I tried to macro hatch and burst out and try to do damage. Which also never works. Can this ever work?
2) Last guy that blocked me didn't see my 9 scout. And because I didn't find him on my first scoutlocation I went back to there and made a hatchery. Do you really send out a second scout for the hatchery? Do you? Every time? Because if you send out that first probe to scout AFTER securing the ramp, it feels like a gamble I want to take. The hatchery would go up 50% of the time I feel.
3) Can zerg ever win a macro game after this? I speak of fast Nydus to third--> expand there-->clear natural with roaches/hydra--> expand again if no 6 gate is scouted. Or is it autoloss?
what is the point in having a build only for ladder? It does call in to question what you are actually getting better for - even small tournaments use mlg and gsl maps now
On September 14 2011 19:01 iNkopwnz wrote: just did this on shakuras vs #44 gm, he went 13pool, when his lings were killing the pylon i just put down a gate and a pylon and that was it.
anyway, this is just a ladder strategy, its very effective :p
On September 14 2011 19:16 Koshi wrote: @iNkopwnz I am actually interested in reading how you lose the 20% of your games doing this. Can you answer these 3 questions? Because I don' t face this enough to know how to beat it.
1) In the beginning I tried to Nydus into his base, which doesn't work, even if I use 2 nydus. Then I tried to macro hatch and burst out and try to do damage. Which also never works. Can this ever work?
2) Last guy that blocked me didn't see my 9 scout. And because I didn't find him on my first scoutlocation I went back to there and made a hatchery. Do you really send out a second scout for the hatchery? Do you? Every time? Because if you send out that first probe to scout AFTER securing the ramp, it feels like a gamble I want to take. The hatchery would go up 50% of the time I feel.
3) Can zerg ever win a macro game after this? I speak of fast Nydus to third--> expand there-->clear natural with roaches/hydra--> expand again if no 6 gate is scouted. Or is it autoloss?
i dont rly loose to nydus with this, the only problems i had is some roach bust and i didnt prepare with cannons in time for it. lings/banes also might work, but only if the toss didnt make cannons at his expo. As for the 2nd probe, ye i send it always at my natural to prevent a hatchery there. Also zerg must do some allin in this situation, i dont think zerg can catch up with macro after being delayed this much
On September 14 2011 19:25 lcl wrote: what is the point in having a build only for ladder? It does call in to question what you are actually getting better for - even small tournaments use mlg and gsl maps now
the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
On September 14 2011 19:29 schmutttt wrote: How is this new?
did i say it was new or i invented it? its old, yet very effective, so why shouldn't it be used??
I have seen and used this before but I do wonder: What would happen if the zerg just expanded in-base (macro hatchery)? They would still get as many larvae but would saturate their minerals quickly. But they could just take their gasses and bust out fairly quickly (i think).
On September 14 2011 19:25 lcl wrote: what is the point in having a build only for ladder? It does call in to question what you are actually getting better for - even small tournaments use mlg and gsl maps now
the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
This is actually the funniest shit I read in a long time.
So once you get matched to decent players you stop doing that and ..... do what?
Because you're so gosu anyways you are not needing these strats to go up in the ladder? Then... why do them in the first place? Why not 7pool there, it's much faster than that.
Fact is, you won't have nearly the skills to compete with a GM player when you cannonrush to high masters.
I hate this cheese that protoss do, this is the reason i 7 pool now and again which is a complete hard counter to it ive won a few times against this either roach allin with burrow, or sneak a hatch with ur scouting drone. Thing is if he finds your drone building the hatch the toss just puts more cannons beside it. But this can be stopped with a few drones 1 to sit on a spot where the pylon needs to go to finish the wall and the other 1/2 drones to attack the probe/probes
Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
This
And
I'm glad this kinda thing is impossible to do to me, I always have a drone out ready to intercept a probe in case of plyon cannon shenanigans
Zergs not blocking the bottom of their ramp to stop this ... real problem. MLG Maps ~ Block the wallin with a neutral supply depot (Yes Author mentioned this is Ladder-only strategy)
And yeah it's nothing new. I don't do this on ladder, and still see between 20-25% of zergs patrolling the ramp that do/attempt to do hatch first, and a great number attacking my probe with a drone.
i know why i go for tumor first or put a hatch close to my ramp, when i see the forge (if its not pointing out towards an forge expand that is). having invested into so many stuff at the ramp, just to face a macro hatch often pointing towards a ling all in is pretty evil :3. (also tend to skip early speed, not needed in this scenario)
Anyway if you want to do your fancy drone drill stuff. First off recall your scouting drone, you can block any reinforcement buildings long enough to drill trough. If the toss builds only by seeing that drone, well thats more wasted minerals for him. Also if he doesn't know that you have seen this, stack your drones perfectly, so it looks like just a scouting drone.
I wouldn't even consider it cheese (since cheese has something to do with not being scouted in time and if its instant lose, also its a do or die thing, making this not really fitting to be called cheese), more an abuse of that the opponent doesn't know what to do and that people tend to do the standard which is the only wrong thing in that case.
I do this a lot when the zerg goes for a hatch first build. I haven't tried it against 14 pool. I much prefer to get my nexus up instead. Yup, the most probable opening you will face is a nydus worm. Just keep an open eye for it and kill it with probes. I think I had one opponent try 4 nydus worms on my base. So he already spent a whole ton of money. By the time he finally got a nydus up in my main, I already had sufficient defenses to kill him off. I personally prefer to open stargate just to scout what the enemy has. And kill any overlords around. This really prevents nydus play. If he was teching to it. It would just be wasted tech from there. This strat is kind of cheesy but I only do it against hatch first builds. Any other build, then I would much rather have my nexus up earlier.
Edit: though any good zerg will be prepared for this when he sees a forge first. The only reason this is deceiving is because he might think you're just going for a regular FFE so he may play greedy and do a hatch first build. I'd say that if you get the zerg to go 11 pool, then the damage has been done already because he goes for an earlier pool while you go for an FFE.
On September 14 2011 19:25 lcl wrote: what is the point in having a build only for ladder? It does call in to question what you are actually getting better for - even small tournaments use mlg and gsl maps now
the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
This is actually the funniest shit I read in a long time.
So once you get matched to decent players you stop doing that and ..... do what?
Because you're so gosu anyways you are not needing these strats to go up in the ladder? Then... why do them in the first place? Why not 7pool there, it's much faster than that.
Fact is, you won't have nearly the skills to compete with a GM player when you cannonrush to high masters.
im glad i made u happy, now im gonna make u sad by telling u how getting ladder pts is usefull. Once u get matched with someone better than u (pros) u will improve much faster than when ur matched with someone whos at ur lvl
and this build (unlike 7pool) has a followup, u dont win with just pylon block, u have to macro and adapt afterwards, so no. if u put a masters zerg vs a silver toss, silver would defo fuck this up
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
On September 14 2011 19:40 iNkopwnz wrote:the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
Why not become better and get there legitimately? If you use these types of cheese you're not helping yourself because you end up at a higher league than you should, and you hit a ceiling when you start playing real games or when your opponents are good enough to stop it.
On September 14 2011 19:40 iNkopwnz wrote:the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
Why not become better and get there legitimately? If you use these types of cheese you're not helping yourself because you end up at a higher league than you should, and you hit a ceiling when you start playing real games or when your opponents are good enough to stop it.
k ill ask u a question, why cheeses exist? and to ur question my answer is simple, if u train with pros ull become good faster than when ur training with ur lvl ppl
I've read both your arguments and while on one hand, you won't get as good when you do this, I think it is also a legitimate strategy against a hatch first build. If it works, then woopee for the toss. If the zerg is smart enough to be able to break out before cannons but after pylons then woopee for the zerg because the toss wasted a whole lot of time and minerals for this. If it is totally prevented the woopee! Regular game.
If I'm a zerg (and I have played zerg before) and I get greedy and the toss blocks my ramp, I just feel. Ok, he took the ball to my court. Now it's my move. How am I going to react? One game I canceled a hatch and snuck to another base. Luckily for me, my opponent didn't scout where i placed my hatch and he subsequently canceled the cannons he was making to spend it on something else probably since my hatch wasn't there anymore. I got my hatch at the natural afterwards and was actually working on 3 bases while he probably thought i was working on two.
Really, there is nothing wrong with that. Don't mind how other people play. If that's how they want to play, then so be it. Personally, I much prefer seeing the toss do a cannon rush because I have not lost to it since season one. Yes I don't get a lot better than I was in a regular game, but those are the cards I've been dealt so to speak and I just try to do my best to minimize or even prevent any damage or loss on my part. It's not like. Oh, the zerg is going 15 hatch while I spent an extra 150 on a forge before i can get my nexus. I'll just let him expand freely. While some people may think I can get my nexus up earlier and try to deal with it from there, some people would much prefer to disrupt the plans early on. It takes some people really out of their game and they start to panic. Just part of the mind games.
I always try to mine 100 gas -->lair -->nydus to my third -->expand there --> clear natural with roaches--> take 3rd ---> Lose against Protoss deathball.
Pretty much this. And sorry protosses, I do really get mad when someone does this
But in all seriousness, what is the best reaction from zerg if the 3 pylons do go down?
I hate all these moral judgements flying around. If a strategy is successful, what business do you have telling people it's bad to use those strategies? Any strategy that wins is a good strategy, this is really just the "no rush 15 min" attitude in disguise.
@lcl: "What's the point in having a build only for ladder?": any build is "only for ladder" if, like most people, you don't participate in tournaments. This is like saying "what is the point in singing only in the shower". Weird question.
@Saechiis: "flaunt your 80% winrate" suggests that the OP is a braggart. I can find no evidence of that. He could have written "this always wins", instead the OP tries to give a realistic assessment.
@schmutttt: "How is this new?" OP correctly points out he never claimed it was new.
@Sententia: "Why not become better and get there legitimately?" What kind of legitimacy are you talking about here?
There is always going to be variability in what kind of motivations people have for the game, how they like to behave and what kind of strategies they want to use and the reasons for doing so. It is ridiculous to expect everyone to stick to a narrow code of conduct in a game like this. I sure as hell will never subscribe to such a code. In fact, it would be horrible if some of you guys got your way and there would be a starcraft honour code: everyone would quickly become terribly vulnerable to cheese, leading to a more unstable metagame.
Although I understand that you get annoyed if you die to this guy's strat, the way to make it disappear is by preparing against it so that its success rate drops. Tl;dr: please stop complaining and deal with it. There is no moral flaw in the OP, just a whole lot of grammatical and spelling errors.
I'm an High Diamond Zerg, and I have never lost to this.
One time I faced this on the ladder and I just nydused the protoss. Later on I have perfected it:
If you see the protoss doing this, throw down immediatly 2 extractors. If you can, try to deny scouting from the protoss, but this can still work even if he scouts it. As soon as you can, you start lair tech. Then, after you're fully saturated, you start producing roaches. As the Lair finishes you throw down a Nydus worm, and also start a second queen.
Then take all your forces into the nydus worm (queens too) and try to nydus his main, if this fails because it got spotted. Nydus again before his base, break down his wall and march in. If you have broken his wall he won't have much forces that pose a threat to you. Some protosses will go for air, to prevent the roach bust, hence the 2 queens.
Additional points: - Immediatly get some overlords in position for the nydus attempts. One at the back of the base for the first attempt and maybe a second in the front of his base. Remember that every unit can spot for you, so if you still have your scouting drone outside your base, try to hide it so you can deploy your nydus with it! - It is also very handy to put a creep tumor and a spine in your base. Once you have creeped to the ramp, you can pick the pylons with the spine of! - Try to keep your queens alive, you can lay creep tumors around the nydus for more vision and speed. If you're in the main it will also irritate the protoss very much.
Even if you don't destroy the protoss, you will most likely win because of the damage you done, protoss can't even expand if you have creep in their natural
Also I realise this is an all-in, but trying to continue the game noramlly would be suïcide in my opinion.
On September 14 2011 21:47 shoop wrote: I hate all these moral judgements flying around. If a strategy is successful, what business do you have telling people it's bad to use those strategies? Any strategy that wins is a good strategy, this is really just the "no rush 15 min" attitude in disguise.
@lcl: "What's the point in having a build only for ladder?": any build is "only for ladder" if, like most people, you don't participate in tournaments. This is like saying "what is the point in singing only in the shower". Weird question.
@Saechiis: "flaunt your 80% winrate" suggests that the OP is a braggart. I can find no evidence of that. He could have written "this always wins", instead the OP tries to give a realistic assessment.
@schmutttt: "How is this new?" OP correctly points out he never claimed it was new.
@Sententia: "Why not become better and get there legitimately?" What kind of legitimacy are you talking about here?
There is always going to be variability in what kind of motivations people have for the game, how they like to behave and what kind of strategies they want to use and the reasons for doing so. It is ridiculous to expect everyone to stick to a narrow code of conduct in a game like this. I sure as hell will never subscribe to such a code. In fact, it would be horrible if some of you guys got your way and there would be a starcraft honour code: everyone would quickly become terribly vulnerable to cheese, leading to a more unstable metagame.
Although I understand that you get annoyed if you die to this guy's strat, the way to make it disappear is by preparing against it so that its success rate drops. Tl;dr: please stop complaining and deal with it. There is no moral flaw in the OP, just a whole lot of grammatical and spelling errors.
LOL, don t you know why GSL / MLG have neutral depots in the ramp? don t you think pros could prepare against it? This cheeses break the game. 6 pool is so all-in and the probes can fight slowlings, but u can t break this wall as zerg. I don t say "don t use it", i think evry toss should do it evry game, so it get patched
On September 14 2011 22:19 Wortie wrote: I'm an High Diamond Zerg, and I have never lost to this.
One time I faced this on the ladder and I just nydused the protoss. Later on I have perfected it:
If you see the protoss doing this, throw down immediatly 2 extractors. If you can, try to deny scouting from the protoss, but this can still work even if he scouts it. As soon as you can, you start lair tech. Then, after you're fully saturated, you start producing roaches. As the Lair finishes you throw down a Nydus worm, and also start a second queen.
Then take all your forces into the nydus worm (queens too) and try to nydus his main, if this fails because it got spotted. Nydus again before his base, break down his wall and march in. If you have broken his wall he won't have much forces that pose a threat to you. Some protosses will go for air, to prevent the roach bust, hence the 2 queens.
Additional points: - Immediatly get some overlords in position for the nydus attempts. One at the back of the base for the first attempt and maybe a second in the front of his base. Remember that every unit can spot for you, so if you still have your scouting drone outside your base, try to hide it so you can deploy your nydus with it! - It is also very handy to put a creep tumor and a spine in your base. Once you have creeped to the ramp, you can pick the pylons with the spine of! - Try to keep your queens alive, you can lay creep tumors around the nydus for more vision and speed. If you're in the main it will also irritate the protoss very much.
Even if you don't destroy the protoss, you will most likely win because of the damage you done, protoss can't even expand if you have creep in their natural
Also I realise this is an all-in, but trying to continue the game noramlly would be suïcide in my opinion.
Quick question. Don't the protoss you play against have a couple of cannons out front? As soon as I see the first nydus worm, I deny it with probes or one zealot or a combination of both. Then I just put up a few more cannons in addition to the ones i already have in case he makes a nydus outside the natural (with almost a wall) coz I know he can't possibly attempt anything but banes or roaches at my front as I'm denying the nydus at the back with just workers. And by the time you get to do that, the protoss is so far ahead anyway. In fact, I even put down extra cannons out front just in case either way because I know I can afford to be safe when I see he never put down an expo anywhere else. Warpgate will probably be done already when you get to attack and he will probably have around 4 gates already. (at least that's the number I had the last time I got hit with a nydus with stargate too).
On September 14 2011 22:41 kedinik wrote: I'm fairly certain that if you see this with a defensive 2nd OL and immediately drone-drill, you break the contain before any pylons can even finish.
Which, granted, takes more map awareness and reaction speed than the vast majority of even master league players have.
And practice with the drone drill technique too. And I don't think a vast majority of the people on ladder actually know about it yet.
This all relies on zerg not patrolling a drone at the bottom of their ramp, sure it's a freewin if they don't, but doesn't matter what you do if you can make your opponent play like an idiot.
On September 14 2011 22:19 Wortie wrote: I'm an High Diamond Zerg, and I have never lost to this.
One time I faced this on the ladder and I just nydused the protoss. Later on I have perfected it:
If you see the protoss doing this, throw down immediatly 2 extractors. If you can, try to deny scouting from the protoss, but this can still work even if he scouts it. As soon as you can, you start lair tech. Then, after you're fully saturated, you start producing roaches. As the Lair finishes you throw down a Nydus worm, and also start a second queen.
Then take all your forces into the nydus worm (queens too) and try to nydus his main, if this fails because it got spotted. Nydus again before his base, break down his wall and march in. If you have broken his wall he won't have much forces that pose a threat to you. Some protosses will go for air, to prevent the roach bust, hence the 2 queens.
Additional points: - Immediatly get some overlords in position for the nydus attempts. One at the back of the base for the first attempt and maybe a second in the front of his base. Remember that every unit can spot for you, so if you still have your scouting drone outside your base, try to hide it so you can deploy your nydus with it! - It is also very handy to put a creep tumor and a spine in your base. Once you have creeped to the ramp, you can pick the pylons with the spine of! - Try to keep your queens alive, you can lay creep tumors around the nydus for more vision and speed. If you're in the main it will also irritate the protoss very much.
Even if you don't destroy the protoss, you will most likely win because of the damage you done, protoss can't even expand if you have creep in their natural
Also I realise this is an all-in, but trying to continue the game noramlly would be suïcide in my opinion.
Quick question. Don't the protoss you play against have a couple of cannons out front? As soon as I see the first nydus worm, I deny it with probes or one zealot or a combination of both. Then I just put up a few more cannons in addition to the ones i already have in case he makes a nydus outside the natural (with almost a wall) coz I know he can't possibly attempt anything but banes or roaches at my front as I'm denying the nydus at the back with just workers. And by the time you get to do that, the protoss is so far ahead anyway. In fact, I even put down extra cannons out front just in case either way because I know I can afford to be safe when I see he never put down an expo anywhere else. Warpgate will probably be done already when you get to attack and he will probably have around 4 gates already. (at least that's the number I had the last time I got hit with a nydus with stargate too).
Cannons are not invincible, with this push you can have around 10 roaches and a few lings, so there is a chance you can break them down. Sure it is possible for protoss to put so much defense up so you can't break it, but with that much of an investment, they are crippling themselves. Anything protoss can throw at you, is gonna be weaker and delayed with every cannon they build.
If you don't succeed to do damage, you can break the wall at your natural down with the force you have outside, the wall will be weaker because you will have a better arc than on top of the ramp. After that you can easily take your natural and a 3rd. Also remember that the nydus worm gives you more mobility than any race has. You can take expo's at really weird locations. You will always be faster there than they will be.
The probelm with taking the natural right away, is that he easily can nydus you.. Even if you have a probe on patrol. At least on maps lite taldarim...
I just go 9 pylon, 13 forge at my main choke, 15 3 pylons. 15 cannon
15 Gateway at my choke
Then 2 gas right away.
I upgrade to at least +1 attack and go blink stalkers right away. You never lose if you keep your focus.
On September 14 2011 22:19 Wortie wrote: I'm an High Diamond Zerg, and I have never lost to this.
One time I faced this on the ladder and I just nydused the protoss. Later on I have perfected it:
If you see the protoss doing this, throw down immediatly 2 extractors. If you can, try to deny scouting from the protoss, but this can still work even if he scouts it. As soon as you can, you start lair tech. Then, after you're fully saturated, you start producing roaches. As the Lair finishes you throw down a Nydus worm, and also start a second queen.
Then take all your forces into the nydus worm (queens too) and try to nydus his main, if this fails because it got spotted. Nydus again before his base, break down his wall and march in. If you have broken his wall he won't have much forces that pose a threat to you. Some protosses will go for air, to prevent the roach bust, hence the 2 queens.
Additional points: - Immediatly get some overlords in position for the nydus attempts. One at the back of the base for the first attempt and maybe a second in the front of his base. Remember that every unit can spot for you, so if you still have your scouting drone outside your base, try to hide it so you can deploy your nydus with it! - It is also very handy to put a creep tumor and a spine in your base. Once you have creeped to the ramp, you can pick the pylons with the spine of! - Try to keep your queens alive, you can lay creep tumors around the nydus for more vision and speed. If you're in the main it will also irritate the protoss very much.
Even if you don't destroy the protoss, you will most likely win because of the damage you done, protoss can't even expand if you have creep in their natural
Also I realise this is an all-in, but trying to continue the game noramlly would be suïcide in my opinion.
Quick question. Don't the protoss you play against have a couple of cannons out front? As soon as I see the first nydus worm, I deny it with probes or one zealot or a combination of both. Then I just put up a few more cannons in addition to the ones i already have in case he makes a nydus outside the natural (with almost a wall) coz I know he can't possibly attempt anything but banes or roaches at my front as I'm denying the nydus at the back with just workers. And by the time you get to do that, the protoss is so far ahead anyway. In fact, I even put down extra cannons out front just in case either way because I know I can afford to be safe when I see he never put down an expo anywhere else. Warpgate will probably be done already when you get to attack and he will probably have around 4 gates already. (at least that's the number I had the last time I got hit with a nydus with stargate too).
Cannons are not invincible, with this push you can have around 10 roaches and a few lings, so there is a chance you can break them down. Sure it is possible for protoss to put so much defense up so you can't break it, but with that much of an investment, they are crippling themselves. Anything protoss can throw at you, is gonna be weaker and delayed with every cannon they build.
If you don't succeed to do damage, you can break the wall at your natural down with the force you have outside, the wall will be weaker because you will have a better arc than on top of the ramp. After that you can easily take your natural and a 3rd. Also remember that the nydus worm gives you more mobility than any race has. You can take expo's at really weird locations. You will always be faster there than they will be.
I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. Just want to have a good discussion to understand the situation more. I know they're not invincible... But at least I have at least 3. And add more seeing the first nydus and have gateway units out. (also with a VR or so to help) I don't know. Won't you still be behind if you don't succeed to do damage because you've teched to nydus ASAP while your opponent had 2 bases up for a while. even if you finally break through and start your expo, IMO, you'd still be vastly behind even if he invested that much because you did invest an equal amount and I'd say cannons (especially with ground support) are more cost effective than roaches and lings.
Nothing new here. I do it every time I see a Zerg goes for a Hatch 1st build (Can't stand greedy openings like this) against me and 90% of the time I win because the Zerg would not patrol with a drone in the bottom of the ramp, I wall him off and go to 6gate him for the win. Nydus? Spread pylons and be aware of the minimap. Roaches? Build few more cannons in the natural. Anything else will just die to the 6gate.
The probelm with taking the natural right away, is that he easily can nydus you.. Even if you have a probe on patrol. At least on maps lite taldarim...
I just go 9 pylon, 13 forge at my main choke, 15 3 pylons. 15 cannon
15 Gateway at my choke
Then 2 gas right away.
I upgrade to at least +1 attack and go blink stalkers right away. You never lose if you keep your focus.
this isn't cheese, it's reactionary. it's an FFE with the potential to punish hatch first. to stop this, stop making a naked hatch. it's not the maps fault. the end.
This happens to me all the time and I must say I've gotten really good at still winning these types of games. I simply allow him to cannon up while I rush to 3 queens, 2 spines and pure drones. Once I'm ready to take out the cannons I move my spines up to the ramp to attack the cannons and pylons while making 6-8 lings and then use my queens and lings to kill whatever is left from what my spines can't reach. The thing is to focus on timings and ignore that you are forced to one base.
I normally aim for a 5min evo, 545ish +1 melee. Normally break down the block in around 6 and expand immediately. Take a fast 3rd and lair at 750ish. The rush to 3 queens is perfect because the normal follow up seems to be air play using phoenix and/or voidray and the 3 fast queens make it really easy to defend while you have the lings with +1 at the ready. You just keep poking the front and doing runby's. I've done so much damage doing just runbys and can normally win the game right then and there. If not, I just tech like normal, infestation pit after lair get +2 melee and keep going.
On September 14 2011 19:40 iNkopwnz wrote:the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
Why not become better and get there legitimately? If you use these types of cheese you're not helping yourself because you end up at a higher league than you should, and you hit a ceiling when you start playing real games or when your opponents are good enough to stop it.
k ill ask u a question, why cheeses exist? and to ur question my answer is simple, if u train with pros ull become good faster than when ur training with ur lvl ppl
Cheese keeps tournament play interesting in BOX situations, BO1 everyone hates it unless its cool or really well executed cheese, cannon wall in doesn't count as either. I also don't think cheesing random people on ladder, whether they are really good or not counts as training. The skill set required to play standup games with ppl that know how to is completely different from cheesing a person, even if you have to follow up or not since as soon as that wall goes down, P gets a significant advantage, enough to win if he follows through properly. So you are going to be less likely to be able to gain an advantage in other ways since you have not played enough to learn them.
That being said it is good to know a cheese well if you plan on playing in tournaments, or if you just want to have fun on ladder thats fine too, but don't say that one of the best ways to learn to play is to cheese cause whether your cheesing a bronze or a GM, if they don't know how to respond to a wall in or mess it up they will lose since they will offer no challenge in the rest of the game. All you've done is learned how to put down a wall.
On September 14 2011 23:10 shadymmj wrote: this isn't cheese, it's reactionary. it's an FFE with the potential to punish hatch first. to stop this, stop making a naked hatch. it's not the maps fault. the end.
???
This is a cheese that hits before 100% standard 14-pool play can possibly have lings out in time.
is this a troll tread ? not only its made since beta (nerfed to 3 from 2 pylons) also its nowadays easy counterable from even good diamonds (nydus in dual expand etc etc)
On September 14 2011 23:18 EvilZergling wrote: This happens to me all the time and I must say I've gotten really good at still winning these types of games. I simply allow him to cannon up while I rush to 3 queens, 2 spines and pure drones. Once I'm ready to take out the cannons I move my spines up to the ramp to attack the cannons and pylons while making 6-8 lings and then use my queens and lings to kill whatever is left from what my spines can't reach. The thing is to focus on timings and ignore that you are forced to one base.
I normally aim for a 5min evo, 545ish +1 melee. Normally break down the block in around 6 and expand immediately. Take a fast 3rd and lair at 750ish. The rush to 3 queens is perfect because the normal follow up seems to be air play using phoenix and/or voidray and the 3 fast queens make it really easy to defend while you have the lings with +1 at the ready. You just keep poking the front and doing runby's. I've done so much damage doing just runbys and can normally win the game right then and there. If not, I just tech like normal, infestation pit after lair get +2 melee and keep going.
I find the biggest problem with people doing this sort of cheese is that they get too confident and start to relax and don't make use of their advantage, thinking they've already won. If they just played safe, ling runbys won't happen. Zerg won't be able to take a quick 3rd because of the air units that are already out by the time you do and have an army in time to keep them from droning up too much at their natural even. I agree with you that nydus are usually not effective because that is what an alert protoss is expecting almost all the time and the only way to catch up is getting an early third because the toss expo is so way ahead of yours.
This build has been around for a long time. I did it myself for a while.
It is very effective, though better players will easily stop it by simply patrolling a drone at the base of the ramp.
I prefer not to expand and just 5 gate them all in after the delay with +1 attack. Unless he's gone very heavy on spine crawlers you take an auto win. If he does you just take an expo and hold his off as long as you can.
Waiting too long to attack makes you susceptible to nydus play. If they nydus outside your expo they will break your wall in fast if all your units are outside his main containing him.
I played the OP yesterday and he did it to me on sharkuras plateau. I did a 14 pool 16 hatch and died to it, you cannot kill the wall fast enough. I guess the drone patrol is the only safe option.
I think this will be nerfed slightly with 1.4. The sight up a ramp will be reduced by 1 therefore increasing the number of roaches able to shoot the cannon without being shot back.
On September 15 2011 00:07 ssartor wrote: I think this will be nerfed slightly with 1.4. The sight up a ramp will be reduced by 1 therefore increasing the number of roaches able to shoot the cannon without being shot back.
It has never occured to me, this is true, maybe you can kill the wall with roaches more easily. But still, you never wanna stay on base as zerg, the drone patrol allows you to play in your confort zone.
On September 14 2011 22:42 mage36 wrote: And practice with the drone drill technique too. And I don't think a vast majority of the people on ladder actually know about it yet.
If I don't have a Protoss partner around on a given night, is there a decent way to practice the drone drill technique (custom map or trick with AI players)?
On September 14 2011 22:42 mage36 wrote: And practice with the drone drill technique too. And I don't think a vast majority of the people on ladder actually know about it yet.
If I don't have a Protoss partner around on a given night, is there a decent way to practice the drone drill technique (custom map or trick with AI players)?
Thanks,
~rj
Play against very easy A.I., pick protoss and use your probes to kill the wall you built.
This thread is comical. Pylon walls have been around since beta and cannon rushes have been around since BW. How is this worthy of a new thread?
Here's the counter for it, Zergies, and it doesn't involve nydus worms, roach burrow, or 1 base muta (LOL). Go 14 pool 21 hatch, and patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp if you scout a forge first, or any sort of sketchy probe movement. Play standard.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to start my new thread.... "NEW AWESOME ZERG CHEESE-- CHEESE YOUR WAY TO MASTER LEAGUE!! I CALL IT 'THE 6 POOL'!!!"
Unfortunately this works well against every non-intelligent zerg. 0 skill required to pull off, and can get you into grandmasters (seriously piqliq and katari did this like 75% of their games to get there...)
I usually open 11 pool vs Toss so this hasn't happened to me in many games anymore. However, I've been bunkered in so many times and I just tech to roach burrow/speed and counter all in. I've also done this vs the few times I have been cannoned in. With micro, you should never lose a roach to a cannon and if the protoss has THAT many cannons to stop 10-12 roaches with speed and burrow, he doesn't have a nexus and his economic advantage is wasted.
Roaches also own early sim city designs for cannons as there's always a weak spot in the wall with only 1 cannon or no cannons protecting certain key buildings or the mineral line.
On September 15 2011 00:07 ssartor wrote: I think this will be nerfed slightly with 1.4. The sight up a ramp will be reduced by 1 therefore increasing the number of roaches able to shoot the cannon without being shot back.
It has never occured to me, this is true, maybe you can kill the wall with roaches more easily. But still, you never wanna stay on base as zerg, the drone patrol allows you to play in your confort zone.
I'm not sure if this will help. unless the toss player commits to really containing you like adding more cannons and stuff. But usually they just expand behind maybe 1, at most 2 cannons down at your natural and macro up. Plus all he needs to see are the front roaches. I'm not sure, but shouldn't the cannon be far enough from the ramp that your roaches will have to still move down enough to be seen? Oh well.. I'll find out when the new patch comes out.
Regardless, I think the damage has already been done when he makes you build a significant force before you get your expo up. and he has been able to get his set up comfortably while you are stuck with one, which is never a good position to be in as zerg.
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
And fellow Zergs, I'm going to reiterate... the counter to this build is NOT to build 3 spines and take it out from the high ground... or go 1 base muta... or do the super obvious nydus play... The counter to his build is to stop it before it happens. Go 14 pool ALWAYS against protoss, and patrol a drone at your ramp until you get a set of lings out. The cheese is now null and void. Expo and play standard. Sure, you lose... what... 75 minerals' worth of mining time from the drone? But now you can expo in time, or even double expo, and you're not wasting larva and resources that should be going into drones by building spines or roaches to bust out. One base nydus is just retarded. Any Protoss that doesn't exepect and prepare for a nydus is just asking to lose.
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
And fellow Zergs, I'm going to reiterate... the counter to this build is NOT to build 3 spines and take it out from the high ground... or go 1 base muta... or do the super obvious nydus play... The counter to his build is to stop it before it happens. Go 14 pool ALWAYS against protoss, and patrol a drone at your ramp until you get a set of lings out. The cheese is now null and void. Expo and play standard. Sure, you lose... what... 75 minerals' worth of mining time from the drone? But now you can expo in time, or even double expo, and you're not wasting larva and resources that should be going into drones by building spines or roaches to bust out. One base nydus is just retarded. Any Protoss that doesn't exepect and prepare for a nydus is just asking to lose.
I must agree with you! this is the best way because the toss is satisfied you didn't get hatch first and the zerg is satisfied that the toss didn't get to wall off his ramp. And yes, Nydus is too predictable to work for toss players who do this every game while mutas will die to the common follow up for the toss which is stargate with several gateways. even if you do damage with mutas, it won't justify being on one base.
Edit: with mutas, at the end of the day, you'll still be on one base. while you may disrupt mining for one of his bases for a time until he gets stalkers and/or phx to hold off your mutas.
Edit 2: I think this is also better than 11 pool because while you use a drone to patrol your ramp, it is still more economical.
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
what? i told ya, i didnt look this up anywhere lmfao, i know there was like a 2pylon block very long time ago or smth like that. And i never see anything like this anywhere nowadays (replays streams ladder etc) so i posted it here and now im getting bashed by the likes of u. LOL
On September 14 2011 23:13 rokbe wrote: I think nydus is not a good option. For the price of the worm you can get +1, speed and burrow.
Or overlord speed + drops, which gets you the same effect as nydus (sneak into his main) without the random chance of getting denied. I tend to build my second hatch in my main (saw idra do this vs tester in beta) and go straight for a hydra-ling drop (does quite well against anything that isn't colossi, and they're delaying their own tech. Pretty cost-efficient unit-wise too.)
Building a second hatch anyway is REALLY DAMN IMPORTANT though. That way, though your econ may be hit a bit, your production isn't. You don't have a chance in hell without that extra larva.
It's not a guaranteed win response, but it's good enough that I take wins off the cheeser at least often enough that I don't rage. I tend to poke the ramp with a spine while lair is morphing, too.
Haven't had this done to me in over a month - but my rough order in which I get things (i tend to wing it..) Gas Pool (these two are standard, and probably already chosen by the time I see cannon contain) Queen + Hatch-in-base + Speed Gas + Tumor Lair + Second queen - start massing lings Overlord Drops right when lair is done Hydralisk den + ovie speed
As ovie speed/drops is finishing up, estimate how much gas I'll have to dump into hydra (it's like 8-10, save that many larva and make the rest into lings. Dump all minerals into lings. Go drop his base.
There's like a chance that the cannon rusher is playing really greedy and only has a handful of gateway units out (your spine crawler kills that wall REALLY slowly)
I've thought of delaying the first queen in favor of an earlier hatch in base, and more importantly, earlier lair for a more aggressive timing, but I should probably refine that before attempting it. Either way, this build burns gas like whoa. Could delay the ling speed, too - not like your lings are going anywhere anyway.
I don't really get this. I know there's this idea that you "have to" be on more bases than your opponent as Zerg, but if they've cut probes and wasted 300 minerals + 150 minerals on pylons+cannons, what's so bad about staying on one base for a bit?
Yes, obviously the best way to deal with it as Zerg is to prevent it from happening with a patrolling drone. However, if it DOES happen, it seems pretty easy to beat it by:
Plopping down a creep tumor and a spine crawler. Push creep to your ramp while you pump infinity drones. Plop down the spine and watch it get free pylon kills, which your protoss player will probably have to replace at home eventually.
In the meantime, get Lair tech and an evo chamber. You can also grab a roach warren too, but I tend to really like just plain ol' Hydra Ling. If they expanded in the meantime, a Nydus OUTSIDE of their natural just kills them 99% of the time. I like also getting extra queens and push creep from the Nydus as well. You can also use the Nydus to expand to other locations.
You're GOING to be ahead on one base for awhile. Unless he also expands right away and pumps only probes, you are just plain better off. I don't understand why zergs are so afraid of this strat.
I remember not always succeeding with 14pool against that when it only required 2 pylons. But 3 pylons and with a lower range? Shouldn't two zerglings be sufficient to obliterate this?
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
what? i told ya, i didnt look this up anywhere lmfao, i know there was like a 2pylon block very long time ago or smth like that. And i never see anything like this anywhere nowadays (replays streams ladder etc) so i posted it here and now im getting bashed by the likes of u. LOL
Not questioning you that you came up with this yourself without knowledge that this existed, but, with all due respect, if you knew about the 2 then I guess that's where you got the idea of it though... The only reason the 2 pylon block doesn't exist anymore is that they changed the ramp so that you now need 3 pylons to block it. Besides, I was able to learn how to counter the drone drill with this strat, which is fairly new so it's not like this thread didn't add anything to the past posts. take it easy, fella. I was actually trying to learn how zergs may counter this so I can prepare for those next time I do this strat.
Don't be a foolish toss and expand, just 4gate. There is no way the zerg can hold that off ever. And when you expand you actually give the zerg a chance to come back.
i dont get it why do zergs not understand that all you have to do is patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp and this cannot happen to you its that easy
Retard tactics; as a zerg, I would just leave. He cares so much about the ladder points, I'll give them to them. I want to play a game, not play 'who has the most retarded cheese on the books'.
On September 15 2011 01:05 justiceknight wrote: I die to nydus when doing this build all the time,how do i do perfectly? any replays?
Sorry that I don't have a replay but just keep a lookout around your main. The moment you see a nydus starting, send 8 or more probes to attack it or zealots (which you will probably have). Even if it pops out, focus on the nydus as it will probably be low on health and he'll only get a few units out.
There isn't really a reason to play greedy when you're in this situation. The best is to play safe because of your huge lead anyway. If you have a stargate, use a phx or vr to kill overlords around and the nydus threat is gone (except for the front of your base attack) so reinforce your front from then. but generally the zerg will try to bypass the front first.
On September 15 2011 01:08 solidbebe wrote: Don't be a foolish toss and expand, just 4gate. There is no way the zerg can hold that off ever. And when you expand you actually give the zerg a chance to come back.
Sure there is. He just makes spines at his ramp. He can hold off any 4-gate forever as spines are insanely effective against gateway units, especially when he has the ramp advantage. Then you just lost any advantage you hope to have because you didn't expand while he's probably using his gas to make mutas and kill your probes while your units are all the way at his base.
On September 15 2011 01:02 TheSambassador wrote: I don't really get this. I know there's this idea that you "have to" be on more bases than your opponent as Zerg, but if they've cut probes and wasted 300 minerals + 150 minerals on pylons+cannons, what's so bad about staying on one base for a bit?
Yes, you'll be ahead for a while but by the time you execute the nydus worm and punish them, you're already behind because of the expo. Any toss that plays safe and not too greedy will be able to hold off your push at the front.
Edit: the general idea for this build (at least for me) is to expand, I think.
If you only play for the ranking and points then just cheese but if you play to see improvements and actully get better at this game but if you want the easy way then yes. Do this kind of Cheese.
It gives you fast games. You win a lot as this cheese is strong.
You dont get: Better at the game. The oposit, you get bad at that specific matchup and once the game develops better you will fall behind.
SO for all those zergs wondering how to beat this. You do not need to bust it right away, the thing is they have walled themselves out and can't get in (unless they do a pylon trick) and thus have no idea what you are doing. They then need to block every combination of wtf you could be doing and in doing so either cut corners and risk a coinflip loss or don't actually get that far ahead. It is thus important that you don't show your hand too early (i.e start attacking the pylon with your first roach thus giving them time to make more cannons before you can bust it)
Banelings -- Fairly quick way of breaking it as you can bust down 3 pylons with just 5 of them and if there is only 1-2 cannons the wall will die. Comes very fast if you go like 14gas14pool.
Roaches -- Depending on the map/positions they can hit the pylons from the highground. If there is 1 pylon they can snipe it. I think the best part about countering it with roaches is that you can counterattack and if they went FE can sometimes get a freewin.
Mutas -- Fairly risky as it will have to be 1base and very low economy. You must kill a lot of workers with them, they are good only because your opponent usually won't expect them.
Nydus -- Probably the best counter that doesn't bust it right away. You can try to do it in their base or outside their natural. In their base is risky as most good protosses will be expecting it there after a cannon rush. If you can overrun their natural with a proxy nydus you will be in a good spot.
Spines -- Good in combination with one of the above lair tech builds...
Drone drill -- Never tried it, could work i guess.
1base ultralisk -- Very bad counter to this, too much gas investment off 1 base and no guarantee you will break out of your natural. Comes out at around 9 minutes.
If you actualy are going to make a macro build after this. It works as a FFE, except you quick tech to OBS to scout for nydus and hidden bases while getting on to 6 gate. Generally a 6 gate robo build will destroy anything he comes out of that 1 base. I dont do this myself, but if i was in a bad mood thats how i would play a zerg.
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
what? i told ya, i didnt look this up anywhere lmfao, i know there was like a 2pylon block very long time ago or smth like that. And i never see anything like this anywhere nowadays (replays streams ladder etc) so i posted it here and now im getting bashed by the likes of u. LOL
Yes, I understand you don't watch or play enough SC2 to understand that this is an old, old tactic that has been in use forever. That said, you still didn't "come up with it" even if you think you did. Ignorance is not actually bliss.
Go watch Idra vs MC from a couple MLGs ago. MC pylon blocks Idra on Tal'Darim and Idra insta-ggs (this was the "epic" set where MC came back from down 2-0 to beat Idra in a BO7). Or just watch literally any pro Zerg stream and you'll see them patrolling a drone or chasing the probe with drones to prevent this. The only reason you don't see it on many pro streams is because only dumb Zergs let this happen (aka not the pros).
ways you can hold it: -drone patrol -12pool-8pool will come out ahead economically -9 scout like mentioned above and ninja hatch -15pool 15gas (the queen finishes right as you get 100 gas usually intended for speed, ie morph lair first and u will have lair done @ 5min~) at this point, drone till 20, take your 2nd gas get a roach warren + speed make 5~ roaches and rest speedlings, your nydus will be up before they have pylons around their base. pull 2 off each gas after you have all required gas. -mutalisk are possible i suppose, however, i've never tried. -never tried ol drop, however, if it were a close-by-air scenario(meta,shak horiz,shat,etc), that is what I would do.
On September 15 2011 01:02 TheSambassador wrote: I don't really get this. I know there's this idea that you "have to" be on more bases than your opponent as Zerg, but if they've cut probes and wasted 300 minerals + 150 minerals on pylons+cannons, what's so bad about staying on one base for a bit?
Yes, you'll be ahead for a while but by the time you execute the nydus worm and punish them, you're already behind because of the expo. Any toss that plays safe and not too greedy will be able to hold off your push at the front.
Edit: the general idea for this build (at least for me) is to expand, I think.
So you're going to spend 450 minerals on a contain (IF you only make ONE cannon) and then another 400 on an expansion? How will I not be able to fully saturate 1 base with ~26 drones, tech to Lair, and get way more units than you? All I have to do is Nydus somewhere relatively close to your base. I can overlord scout and see what sort of defenses you've put up. If you've wasted even more on cannons, I'll just nydus another base and expand myself. You're not going to have any units... even if you follow up with a 4 gate, Hydra-ling will absolutely destroy anything you can have at that point.
The ONLY time that I can see the 3 pylon block being useful is when a zerg does hatch first. Then you either force the cancel or outright kill the hatchery. If I hatch 1st vs toss ever, I just patrol the drone.
Against 14/14, this seems silly. I can tech up to Lair tech while you've cut probes and wasted minerals on the contain. If you've expanded, I WILL hit before you have enough units to defend, and if you've placed 3+ cannons at home I'll find another way in or double-expand.
guys theres a reason every major league disables this strategy. it is quite strong on ladder but honestly quite pointless if you want to try and carry it over to competitions.
Exploring the world of Cannon-Pressure against Zerg lately. Did this against Hatch first on XNC against Master-Z. Expanded right away after containing him. Followed his outside drone to make sure he does not grab a sneaky hatch anywhere. Rushed for Stargate -> 3 Voids afterwards like with normal FFE, denied a small Roach-Counter after he break out and his third several times, while transitioning to +2 Blinkstalker and grabing my own third. He went for Hydra/Roach meanwhile and in the end I died to a 2/2 Hydra/Roach Counter after sniping his 3rd after completion. Could have hold that of easy imho, if my transition to colossi would have come faster. Macro slipped while engaging his 3rd 2000/1000 and no colossi as he hit me. gg Though I dont like this in-your-face-cannon-wall I think sneaky cannons seem very promising, especially on larger maps where Z cant scout every potential spot so easy.
What you can do as Zerg is get a couple queens, roaches, lair, and nydus near his expansion (if you know he has expanded, that is) put some creep tumors there and destroy his wall with spines Nestea style. Queens will help with air units and if you see there's a lot of them put spores as well. Once the wall has been destroyed just send all your army inside...
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
what? i told ya, i didnt look this up anywhere lmfao, i know there was like a 2pylon block very long time ago or smth like that. And i never see anything like this anywhere nowadays (replays streams ladder etc) so i posted it here and now im getting bashed by the likes of u. LOL
Yes, I understand you don't watch or play enough SC2 to understand that this is an old, old tactic that has been in use forever. That said, you still didn't "come up with it" even if you think you did. Ignorance is not actually bliss.
Go watch Idra vs MC from a couple MLGs ago. MC pylon blocks Idra on Tal'Darim and Idra insta-ggs (this was the "epic" set where MC came back from down 2-0 to beat Idra in a BO7). Or just watch literally any pro Zerg stream and you'll see them patrolling a drone or chasing the probe with drones to prevent this. The only reason you don't see it on many pro streams is because only dumb Zergs let this happen (aka not the pros).
what i was trying to say is that i came up with this 'on the run', as in i just improvised - it worked - i tried it again - and it worked like a charm. i didnt go and search for some 'pvz cheezes' on the forums rofl
u understand that i dont watch or play enough sc2 ? u dont even know who i am and yet u judge me, wtf is wrong with u?
If you're interested, one possible reaction you can have as zerg is:
get double gas, lair, hydra den, roach warren, hydra range and nydus. Make 4 hydras and 1 overseer, then spam roaches and lings.
The timing worked so that, putting down extractor when seeing the wall go up, I could get enough gas for all this, contaminate the core, nydus outside his natural and snipe core before constant chrono wg was done (=win).
Its almost certainly unnecessarily convolute, but it's a fun "technical" allin that works because they delay the core to build all that shit at your ramp.
And if they don't build the core at their front wall, then just nydus somewhere in their base and it'll probably work anyway ^^
ehm... 1 queen destorys the pylon with your placement, speedlings runby, gg oO
if you reinforce your wall more and more, they can simply nydus out of it - you will be tons behind. i dont like that crap, just idra will lose to it because of his ragequit abilties.
On September 15 2011 01:02 TheSambassador wrote: I don't really get this. I know there's this idea that you "have to" be on more bases than your opponent as Zerg, but if they've cut probes and wasted 300 minerals + 150 minerals on pylons+cannons, what's so bad about staying on one base for a bit?
Yes, obviously the best way to deal with it as Zerg is to prevent it from happening with a patrolling drone. However, if it DOES happen, it seems pretty easy to beat it by:
Plopping down a creep tumor and a spine crawler. Push creep to your ramp while you pump infinity drones. Plop down the spine and watch it get free pylon kills, which your protoss player will probably have to replace at home eventually.
In the meantime, get Lair tech and an evo chamber. You can also grab a roach warren too, but I tend to really like just plain ol' Hydra Ling. If they expanded in the meantime, a Nydus OUTSIDE of their natural just kills them 99% of the time. I like also getting extra queens and push creep from the Nydus as well. You can also use the Nydus to expand to other locations.
You're GOING to be ahead on one base for awhile. Unless he also expands right away and pumps only probes, you are just plain better off. I don't understand why zergs are so afraid of this strat.
What if he pushes into your base after the spine crawler destroys the first pylon? Then you've got no defense and it's gg. Even if you macro and don't try to destroy the pylons a good toss will destroy it on his own and push in.
A good toss will ALWAYS poke up the ramp and see what zerg's cooking.
This whole cheese thing needs to get out of people heads. Think of 1v1 as a war. You are angry at them and want to win....so you devise a*!*"STRATEGY"*!* to win. Note emphasis on strategy.
1) If you can't deal with it, then instead of complaining on a forum go buy a gameboy with pokemon and sit in a corner and play it instead of starcraft. You will win at that. Or at least I think.
OR
2) Look up how to deal with it and study and understand what you have read. ( Most people don't really do this properly so refer to number 1 if you can't ).
This happened to me once and I learned to deal with it afterwards. It's actually not hard to block the pylons with drone on hold-position. Even if you do get blocked you have several options.
As some people have said, you can lay down one creep tumour and make one spine crawler. Make an in-base hatchery, 2nd queen, and make nothing but drones and start teching to lair and getting upgrades. Once the wall is down, expand to your natural (or even double expand). The moment your hatch pops you can instantly saturate it and start pumping an army because your upgrades/tech is already done.
You can also do a 1-base drop or nydus on taldarim/metalopolis with speedlings or roaches. With roaches, you have to be good with your timing in order to attack before voidrays are out.
Or you can hide an expansion with your scouting drone.
I was surprised I thought this thread would be an old thread when I read it. This is why you 13 pool on 1v1 maps. Pull 4 drones to attack the wall until your zerglings are out. Then your zerglings do the rest. If he should decide to keep adding to the wall go double gas immediately and go mutas. Spread your creep to your ramp and kill the wall with a spine crawler while your mutas clean up all his probes or force him to cannon in and get even further behind.
Its really sad that protoss can get into high masters with just this skill level. And its even a cheese that only works on ladder. You can't even do it on tournament maps. So whats the point?
This is by the way not a cheese. You make no commitments that can be scouted and even if the zerg have mapvision it doesn't mean you fail. And it is only allin from when the 3 pylons have finished.
On September 15 2011 04:48 GrassEater wrote: This is by the way not a cheese. You make no commitments that can be scouted and even if the zerg have mapvision it doesn't mean you fail. And it is only allin from when the 3 pylons have finished.
This is a cheese.
Nothing wrong with doing it on ladder, but you've pretty much resigned to the fact that you're never gonna be good in tournaments (since they all disallow these except on TDA), since you're wasting time practicing this.
And why would I waste my time doing that shit every game? I swear to god who comes up with all this stupid cheese shit. Being able to execute this shit will never make you good as a player, I'd rather go back to the lowest slums of bronze league than use this shit. Shouldn't we atleast try to help the game itself grow and not fucking cheese our way into higher leagues only to notice that we are totally outclassed when it fails or our opponennt has a brain.
This doesent even work well in High Gold..... Iam doin this kind of stuff pretty often versus Zerg and they just go mass raoches from there or banelings and Speedling and iam dead
On September 14 2011 19:40 iNkopwnz wrote:the point is to get ladder points -_- once u get to high masters or w/e, u get matched with stronger ppl and then u can stop doing these bs strats
Why not become better and get there legitimately? If you use these types of cheese you're not helping yourself because you end up at a higher league than you should, and you hit a ceiling when you start playing real games or when your opponents are good enough to stop it.
k ill ask u a question, why cheeses exist? and to ur question my answer is simple, if u train with pros ull become good faster than when ur training with ur lvl ppl
the training is true,. However mastering the fundamentals all separately is also a true method of getting better faster.
Don't you guys see the issue with the game where you have to abuse a mechanic in an unintended way to beat an unintended consequence of how buildings/blocking works, in order to have a "normal" game? Im referring to drone drilling vs pylons.
On September 15 2011 03:39 DiaBoLuS wrote: ehm... 1 queen destorys the pylon with your placement, speedlings runby, gg oO
if you reinforce your wall more and more, they can simply nydus out of it - you will be tons behind. i dont like that crap, just idra will lose to it because of his ragequit abilties.
The Nydus is very expensive. If you include Lair, which you might not want otherwise, then you are investing 800 resources into Nydus. The whole point of the Nydus is to ignore the pylon wall, so if his pylons hang around to count as supply then he is down whatever he spent in cannons while you are down 800 going for your Nydus.
On September 14 2011 18:18 Koshi wrote: Yeah, that "amazing" dronedrill is bullshit. I have practiced it with a friend and even if you do it almost perfectly you lose a ton of time and they can simply put a gateway and cancel it. Once the cannon is up you can't do anything anymore.
Best thing to do for zerg is to 9 scout himself, if protoss wallins you with 3 pylons just go rofl and expand on another main. Pretty easy win from there .
Best thing would be for Blizzard to realize that their map pool is absolute garbage and should really change it. I don't want to play close positions Shattered Temple ever again. It's just not fun (not going to even get into balance, I play Terran so it's not really a balance issue haha).
But my real question to the OP is, how is this new? "Standard" PvZ used to be 2 pylons at the bottom of their ramp, and this doesn't appear to be anything new other than adding an extra pylon. What is the point of your entire topic again? You're talking about a pointless build that does absolutely nothing. It's not new (any thing that involves blocking the bottom of a Zergs ramp is far from new, let's be honest), you'll never be able to utilize it in a tournament setting or even a Bo just as a cheese that you do, and it doesn't improve your mechanics. Frankly, I fail to see any meaning to your entire post. I read the entire thing, but the only thing that is remotely "new" is that you mention building Gateways behind your pylons to negate the effects of drone-drilling (which, if you're only using the Gateway to block, you should know that a Cybernetics Core makes a better wall (costs the same, has lower build time, and 100 more health in shields and hitpoints).
What I find rather hilarious about your post is that you try to sound like you're helping out everybody who has trouble with PvZ, when really all you're doing is teaching them a way to succeed on ladder until they hit a certain point. You could teach a Terran how to do the 3 Rax Supply Drop All-in or teach a Zerg how to 6 pool vs Z and P or Baneling Bust vs T. If they manage to execute the build with maximum efficiency, then yes, they will do very well on ladder; but at a certain point, your "cure" to their problem, is going to stop working. They're going to start playing players who have better mechanics, better game sense, and who have earned their spot in a league by beating cheesy strategies like that. If a person knows a single build that works well against an unsuspecting opponent, eventually, they will lose with it. They will find themselves playing a person who knows how to beat it, and they will. And when that happens, they're going to be at the exact same level of PvZ that they were at before, where they can't beat Zergs.
I don't want to sound like I'm flaming, but rather I'd just really like to hear what you have to say about it. Is there something I'm missing? I don't think that there is anything new about your strategy and I want to know what you have to say to defend it and your post's merits.
On September 15 2011 06:08 Truedot wrote: Don't you guys see the issue with the game where you have to abuse a mechanic in an unintended way to beat an unintended consequence of how buildings/blocking works, in order to have a "normal" game? Im referring to drone drilling vs pylons.
Isn't that the beauty of StarCraft though? People innovating and finding new ways to be more efficient. The Drone Drill is no more an "Unintended Mechanic" then say putting your first 8 SCVs on the close mineral patches, or having your worker escape a surround by mineral walking? What on Earth is wrong with any of those things. When players come up with new ways to solve problems, that's a great thing to do. How can you honestly be against drone drilling when the person who came up with it instead of doing what many players do (I know I do it haha) and complain about imbalance. No, instead he went and found a way to beat the cheese. That's miraculous in my eyes, and it's what makes StarCraft the best video game there is.
On September 15 2011 03:39 DiaBoLuS wrote: ehm... 1 queen destorys the pylon with your placement, speedlings runby, gg oO
if you reinforce your wall more and more, they can simply nydus out of it - you will be tons behind. i dont like that crap, just idra will lose to it because of his ragequit abilties.
The Nydus is very expensive. If you include Lair, which you might not want otherwise, then you are investing 800 resources into Nydus. The whole point of the Nydus is to ignore the pylon wall, so if his pylons hang around to count as supply then he is down whatever he spent in cannons while you are down 800 going for your Nydus.
the answer is pretty simple. with your roach all in with nydus, you attack the pylons and then place nydus, have the pylons killed off, and then jump right into nydus and attack his base. because then he's heavily supply blocked and cant make defense units.
this is me theory crafting, but what about nydusing to their natural, pushing with roaches and two queens, and using overlod creep spread to build spine crawlers outside of their simcitywall. Spines kill the buildings, roaches take out any exposed cannons, and you'll probably be ahead in no time. Meanwhile, if you really want, you can expand to their expo.
On September 15 2011 06:00 Lephex wrote: This doesent even work well in High Gold..... Iam doin this kind of stuff pretty often versus Zerg and they just go mass raoches from there or banelings and Speedling and iam dead
its prolly cuz you pretty bad(no disrespect given), cheezes like that work's all the way to Top Gm...... But its not like they will help your game at all, but it will help you get to high rating, so you can play the good ppl.
... this is a shit build. a zerg canceling speed and getting out 6 fast banelings will A. kil your pylons before you put down the gateways and B. leave you with 0 tech and not even able to make nexus
On September 15 2011 06:50 Glon wrote: ... this is a shit build. a zerg canceling speed and getting out 6 fast banelings will A. kil your pylons before you put down the gateways and B. leave you with 0 tech and not even able to make nexus
On September 14 2011 18:28 dicex wrote: Brilliant strategy, thanks for working out the strategic details. Really shows why you are a high masters protoss.
Indeed, this is the kind of protoss build that shows it really is the race that takes the most skill!
Just so yall know, this autoloses to any silly 1 base nydus roach play... Toss can't stop overlord spotting unless they wanna drop a cannon everywhere, and Nydus is really suprising and powerful.
er TBH i die to this very often and im high master. I 14 pool every game vs toss just because im so scared of this and i still often die because lings come too late. I rage a lot vs this stuff
Any tips? I'm doing 1 drone patrol at 2:15 min mark cuz i figured its the timing when it should come usually. It hurts my eco a bit, any other ideas how to prevent it? I pretty much feel once the ramp is walled its over, i've played vs much worse protoss players but they managed to do it and i was behind for the whole game if i try to macro
On September 14 2011 18:28 dicex wrote: Brilliant strategy, thanks for working out the strategic details. Really shows why you are a high masters protoss.
Indeed, this is the kind of protoss build that shows it really is the race that takes the most skill!
For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote: Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this.
i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused?
The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special.
what? i told ya, i didnt look this up anywhere lmfao, i know there was like a 2pylon block very long time ago or smth like that. And i never see anything like this anywhere nowadays (replays streams ladder etc) so i posted it here and now im getting bashed by the likes of u. LOL
Yes, I understand you don't watch or play enough SC2 to understand that this is an old, old tactic that has been in use forever. That said, you still didn't "come up with it" even if you think you did. Ignorance is not actually bliss.
Go watch Idra vs MC from a couple MLGs ago. MC pylon blocks Idra on Tal'Darim and Idra insta-ggs (this was the "epic" set where MC came back from down 2-0 to beat Idra in a BO7). Or just watch literally any pro Zerg stream and you'll see them patrolling a drone or chasing the probe with drones to prevent this. The only reason you don't see it on many pro streams is because only dumb Zergs let this happen (aka not the pros).
what i was trying to say is that i came up with this 'on the run', as in i just improvised - it worked - i tried it again - and it worked like a charm. i didnt go and search for some 'pvz cheezes' on the forums rofl
u understand that i dont watch or play enough sc2 ? u dont even know who i am and yet u judge me, wtf is wrong with u?
Ok, well congratulations on discovering the cannon rush/pylon block strategy. Sorry I don't know who you are; apparently, you aren't anyone important. Keep a look out for my new and exciting 7 roach rush cheese that I invented-- the thread will be coming soon.
Zergs: Pool first, patrol drone on ramp, play standard. Don't complain about this or question "why" one might do it. People will do it because, if not prepared for properly, it can be devastating. So, prepare for it and EXPECT it vs. and forge-first protoss. To quote Deezer... EZ.
On September 15 2011 06:50 Glon wrote: ... this is a shit build. a zerg canceling speed and getting out 6 fast banelings will A. kil your pylons before you put down the gateways and B. leave you with 0 tech and not even able to make nexus
I'm going to second this. If you quickly bane bust it and stream lings to their nat, there's no way they're going to be able to hold.
This is the most ridiculous strategy I have ever heard, if I were Zerg I would just get a medium-quick lair and mass roaches in your base with lings reinforcing. SUP SON.
I'm a high Masters Zerg, and to be honest a good majority of shitty protoss players (sorry, my opinion) that try this against me generally end up failing hard with a follow up. There's no point in Nydus, nor mass X unit. The most important thing you have to do, just like in any other situation, is to keep your cool.
Whenever I spot the 3 Pylons, I first judge what to do based on how many cannons there are. I've had a couple greedy Protoss players actually drop only one in which I end up letting my 15 Hatch finish, build a drone and then a Spinecrawler out of range of the cannons. Once the Spinecrawler is finished, throw a few lings at the wall to get the Cannon to focus them rather than the Crawler burrowing nearby. Of course, if you get the uber AMAZING Protoss who decides to wall off with 2-3 cannons, I just simply drop a macro hatch in the main, drone til saturated and tech up. You 100% have to drop a macro hatch in this situation, as you'll be banking more than you can spend off of just one base's worth of larvae. Once the first Queen is finished, drop a creep tumor and inch your way closer to your ramp with a Spinecrawler where eventually you'll create a gap in which your lings/other units can escape and surround the rest of the wall. Occasionally, you can even kill a couple Pylons pending on the map.
Also, I generally don't go for a Nydus but rather standard Tech; I go +1 Melee and get a Hydra Den down just because the majority of Protoss players follow up with either [B]Stalkers or if they're REALLY good, Stargate units. With the Protoss trying to make up for the stupid ammount of minerals he spent at your base, he's set back almost as far if not even more if he decides to expand as he's probing (haaaah, get it?) and dropping a few cannons hoping that you Nydus him. Or, he could try and finish with [B]Stalkers or some sort of 1 base all in in which you'll have the upper hand with tech and a macro hatch dedicated to a larger army rather than more drones.
Sorry for the super long post, I just happened to read what some people's responses were to this and I just figured I'd throw my two-sense in. For a toss new to this, a Nydus might work or expanding at another location might work. But, if someone's taken the time to "think this out" like the OP has, they generally know what the expectations are from the Zerg. It's really not THAT hard to macro out of this situation.. just have to think a little and not overreact.
I have doubts of this achieving an "~80% win rate", along with doubts of this being called a "strategy". I highly recommend any prospective Protoss players to deviate away from this "strategy" at any and all costs. I won't make brash fabricated figures like the OP did about win rates, but I can re-assure you that this will not yield an "~80% win rate" at a respectable skill-level (high Diamond and above).
On September 15 2011 07:43 Irishladdie wrote: For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
this is a strategy because u have a backup plan on what to do next/ what to do if it fails. even 6pool is a strategy unless ur only plan is to build lings and win right there
and yeah, iv wrote this a couple of times already so this is the last time im gonna write this - i did have a ~80% or more win rate with this strat in high masters. i kept detailed logs of all my matchups on excel and it was easy for me to see that with this i won almost every pvz (im not pulling these numbers out of nowhere thats what im saying, believe it or not i dont care)
On September 15 2011 07:43 Irishladdie wrote: For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
Doesn't hurt when you're actually catapulting yourself into players of a respectable skill level. My last smurf I DT rushed every PvZ behind a fake 3 gate sentry expand to catch up to my normal MMR. That build is like, a 95% win rate <high masters.
There's nothing wrong with this play, and there's nothing wrong with 6 pool or proxy 2 rax at 11 supply 2 port banshees, queenless baneling bust julyzerg style, or whatever cheese you want to do.
Just don't expect to become a good player by doing that shit ... but if you just want to get rid of your bonus pool, it's an effective way of doing so.
It seems like the weakness of this build...as with all forge first builds, is that it would be prone to a proxy hatch in your main. I've had protoss done this to me, and they usually do not hold against a proxy hatch roach rush.
I dont think this build is any good. What do you do if zerg makes 2nd hatch in main, 2 queens, 1 spine and 0 zergling? I`m pretty certain that you are in playable situation, but It`s quite weird that you didnt describe how you react to this most obvious responce from zerg.
He breaks out using creep + that 1 spine to pick off your blockade. After that you are looking at around 50 drone zerg with 3 hatcheries and perfect+ saturation in 2 base. After that zerg can go in many directions. He definitely can hold your 6gate.
On September 15 2011 20:04 neoghaleon55 wrote: It seems like the weakness of this build...as with all forge first builds, is that it would be prone to a proxy hatch in your main. I've had protoss done this to me, and they usually do not hold against a proxy hatch roach rush.
I've faced proxy hatch several times and have been able to hold it off. Of course I am very diligent with my scouting. I know nothing's coming from the front for a while so I scout a lot around my base. I actually prefer it if the zerg does this. This way, I know exactly where his minerals are going. Once I only saw it after it popped up. Put down 2 cannons (the price of a hatch, really) and made some stalkers. Eventually held it off and was working on 2 base while the zerg was working on one. It's very risky but if it's not scouted then you probably win.
Well, I just want to say that the things I am learning here are what to prepare for the next time I play this style. From roach or hydra timing through nydus (which I think is the most viable) to hydra drop from overlord (which I think will be a little too late for the timing. The toss would be ahead already by then.)
seriously why is this even a guide im sure everyone knows how to cheese a zerg in under 3 minutes by now
and the drone drill is not that good, it doesnt even work on most maps. it's great if they only try to make 3 pylons and 1 cannon though, pretty shitty if they know how to wall or its not on one of the few maps it actually works on.
I like how people put all this effort into cheeses, because they're "easy" or "fun" way to quickly climb ladder instead of actually trying to get good at their mechanics, unit control, or macro. Maybe I'm biased because zerg doesn't have any good cheeses, I just don't see the point of putting effort into this if you're even remotely serious about SC2 (i.e. most TL users that post in SC2).
On September 14 2011 18:28 dicex wrote: Brilliant strategy, thanks for working out the strategic details. Really shows why you are a high masters protoss.
On September 15 2011 18:55 iNkopwnz wrote: this is a strategy because u have a backup plan on what to do next/ what to do if it fails. even 6pool is a strategy unless ur only plan is to build lings and win right there
and yeah, iv wrote this a couple of times already so this is the last time im gonna write this - i did have a ~80% or more win rate with this strat in high masters. i kept detailed logs of all my matchups on excel and it was easy for me to see that with this i won almost every pvz (im not pulling these numbers out of nowhere thats what im saying, believe it or not i dont care)
Without link to your SC2profile, you are pulling those stats out of your ass. Ican say i have 90% winrate with 15 hatch against Terran in high master, does it make my strat?
You are an Idiot because you suggest to your Protoss brethren to cheese most of the time "because their struggling against Zerg". And then you go and lay out a 12 month old cheese as your simple build to steal wins.
This kind of mentality is holding you back from improving and is making you struggle against Zerg.
On September 15 2011 15:43 gulati wrote: I have doubts of this achieving an "~80% win rate", along with doubts of this being called a "strategy". I highly recommend any prospective Protoss players to deviate away from this "strategy" at any and all costs. I won't make brash fabricated figures like the OP did about win rates, but I can re-assure you that this will not yield an "~80% win rate" at a respectable skill-level (high Diamond and above).
On September 15 2011 07:43 Irishladdie wrote: For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
I'm rank 1 gold and owned a platinum zerg doing this after you posted this here. I'm fairly new so I didn't know about this.
My follow up was TERRIBLE, frankly I was astonished at how much it threw off my opponent and how much they were freaking out.
I simply starting playing my standard (2 base 6 gate +1 stalker baby haha) and patrolling for any close nydus.
When he finally broke through, by spreading creep and moving 2 spine crawlers, and a handful of roaches, he double expanded right when he got out and I just rolled him.
Definitely he lost because he didn't keep his cool. Just posting this because I am gold and he was plat and someone above me said this doesn't work in gold (even though the OP is high masters.....).
Until a one or two months ago i have done this occasionally cause it just leads to games that are different than normal pvzs and from time to time I wanna have such games, but i have stopped to do it cause pretty much every zerg counter that was mentioned in this thread has beatn me. TT building so many pylons and canons just put you in a rather bad spot,
I am diamond with random and low masters with protoss
zerg gets a drone out early and makes a ninja expand instead of scouting because he sees your cheese, which is safe because your warpgates and gateways are delayed. He doesn't inject with queen and spreads creep to the ramp, he starts to spine your pylons.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
On September 15 2011 22:45 fighter2_40 wrote: zerg gets a drone out early and makes a ninja expand instead of scouting because he sees your cheese, which is safe because your warpgates and gateways are delayed. He doesn't inject with queen and spreads creep to the ramp, he starts to spine your pylons.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
Pylon health is 200/200, and 1 armor, so 90 drone shots to kill the pylon. Drone attacks every 1.5 game seconds, and pylon takes 25 game seconds to build. So a drone gets max of about 16~17 shots off on pylon before it completes. Definitely not enough time to kill it normally.
With drone drilling, if you are able to do it perfectly, the minimum drones you need to pull is 6 to kill the pylon before it finishes. If you're a human, you need to account for time to pull drones, and time it takes to perform the drone drill, so probably need to pull 8-12 drones to be able to reliably kill the pylons before it finishes.
If you bring 12 drones and only 10 drones get the shot off, it should take 13.5 game seconds to kill the pylon, plenty of time for you to react and set up the drone drill.
It's perfectly reasonable to believe that a smart zerg can stop it in time when drone drilling correctly.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
You're supposed to kill the pylons before they finish, because you have an overlord watching at your ramp.
again, iv played enough games with this pylon opening, and not a single zerg killed the pylons while they r morphing
... there is some truth in what you are saying, I just checked, there are few variables to consider, 1. where the probe start building the wall off from. [a good zerg will respond the moment that the Protoss lay out his first pylon, and while using the drill technique there's only 1 or 2 pylons that you can attack, if the probe starts building from the wrong direction it will be easier to stop the wall off] 2. the people you were playing against never practiced the drill before, it's not such a complicated thing to do but it takes like 3 times to get used to the movement and considering you need to target different crystal for each map.. yeah using the drill technique takes some practice to be mastered perfectly. 3. Zerg's drone count... for obvious reasons, when I tested this I had 15 drones, which I think I'll have normally... maybe 14...
The results of my test: If I have practiced the drill before, and you started to build your wall from the wrong direction, I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP YOU! If I have practiced and you started building from the correct direction, you will have about 1-2 seconds to build 2 buildings to rewall me in or I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP IT... anyway if I didn't practice the drill before I wont be able to stop the wall in, and that is why the Zerg you fought against couldn't stop it in time.
And lastly, If you don't believe me you can PM me and I'll send you a triggered Xel'Naga Caverns map where you start with 15 drones and after 4-5 seconds a probe will start building pylons at your ramp from the correct direction.
Looking at the replay I don't see the 80%w/r. The zerg handeled it ok and sure as behind and thorwn of but he sure had a fighting chance so sure it si a cheesy opening but sure isn't game ending by any means. you yourself isn't that far ahead after the block to justify the risk in my opionion.
Also the point with the replay is more to see the state of the game, not how you did it. I could say "3 drone harass early against protoss is great just pull 3 drones at 14 food and run to protoss bas" and it would explain it. But it would not justify what the strategy. My example is stupid I know but for something that tries to be a guide, a replay is really the least you can do.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
You're supposed to kill the pylons before they finish, because you have an overlord watching at your ramp.
again, iv played enough games with this pylon opening, and not a single zerg killed the pylons while they r morphing
... there is some truth in what you are saying, I just checked, there are few variables to consider, 1. where the probe start building the wall off from. [a good zerg will respond the moment that the Protoss lay out his first pylon, and while using the drill technique there's only 1 or 2 pylons that you can attack, if the probe starts building from the wrong direction it will be easier to stop the wall off] 2. the people you were playing against never practiced the drill before, it's not such a complicated thing to do but it takes like 3 times to get used to the movement and considering you need to target different crystal for each map.. yeah using the drill technique takes some practice to be mastered perfectly. 3. Zerg's drone count... for obvious reasons, when I tested this I had 15 drones, which I think I'll have normally... maybe 14...
The results of my test: If I have practiced the drill before, and you started to build your wall from the wrong direction, I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP YOU! If I have practiced and you started building from the correct direction, you will have about 1-2 seconds to build 2 buildings to rewall me in or I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP IT... anyway if I didn't practice the drill before I wont be able to stop the wall in, and that is why the Zerg you fought against couldn't stop it in time.
And lastly, If you don't believe me you can PM me and I'll send you a triggered Xel'Naga Caverns map where you start with 15 drones and after 4-5 seconds a probe will start building pylons at your ramp from the correct direction.
can you pls upload the custom map? i would LOVE to practive the drill
On September 15 2011 22:45 fighter2_40 wrote: zerg gets a drone out early and makes a ninja expand instead of scouting because he sees your cheese, which is safe because your warpgates and gateways are delayed. He doesn't inject with queen and spreads creep to the ramp, he starts to spine your pylons.
what do?
I think the OP explained scouting.
Zerg does not need to ninja drone out. Just make hatch in main and drone up like crazy while slowly killing pylons and cannon with high ground spine.
Basicly protoss is trading 450 minerals for 150 minerals + 1 larva and lets zerg drone up with absolutely no attacking units untill he has perfect saturations to transfer once he makes third hatch at natural.
I guess you may have plan against this and i questioned it before what is his plan. After all this is the most obvious responce from competent zerg. He had plans against all cheese zerg may try but how about if zerg plays standard?
I still fail to see the point of this entire post:
This build is nothing new, it's been around forever. The only thing that's new in 12 months is building three pylons instead of two and then building gateways behind; neither of which are particularly new.
This build doesn't even work in a tournament so it doesn't even make sense to learn this cheese to use in a BoX series.
Because it's such an easy build to accomplish, it doesn't improve your mechanics whatsoever.
Despite coming across as a "Help thread to P's who struggle vs Z," your build will not really make a person better at PvZ.
This build is not fun to do or play against, and if you're taking out the fun aspect of a game AND you're not getting better at the game, then there really is no point in doing it.
If your only motivation behind doing this build is so that you can infuriate others and get to be higher ranked, then you might as well just become a drop-hacker; you'll get wins easier and make people even angrier.
Overall, I just fail to see a point to your thread, and since you didn't respond to my last post (which I'm assuming was because it was very long), I've decided to condense those thoughts here in what you could call a TL;DR. So I actually want to hear what you think the point of this entire post is.
On September 16 2011 03:12 The Final Boss wrote: I still fail to see the point of this entire post:
This build is nothing new, it's been around forever. The only thing that's new in 12 months is building three pylons instead of two and then building gateways behind; neither of which are particularly new.
This build doesn't even work in a tournament so it doesn't even make sense to learn this cheese to use in a BoX series.
Because it's such an easy build to accomplish, it doesn't improve your mechanics whatsoever.
Despite coming across as a "Help thread to P's who struggle vs Z," your build will not really make a person better at PvZ.
This build is not fun to do or play against, and if you're taking out the fun aspect of a game AND you're not getting better at the game, then there really is no point in doing it.
If your only motivation behind doing this build is so that you can infuriate others and get to be higher ranked, then you might as well just become a drop-hacker; you'll get wins easier and make people even angrier.
Overall, I just fail to see a point to your thread, and since you didn't respond to my last post (which I'm assuming was because it was very long), I've decided to condense those thoughts here in what you could call a TL;DR. So I actually want to hear what you think the point of this entire post is.
I disagree with you and here's why...
The point of this build is that is does work on the ladder maps, so why not use it to gain an advantage? I've seen a few high ranked Korean Protoss favor this cheese over a standard cannon rush because of how effective it is for the cost of only 1 cannon and 3 pylons. It is a very effective cheese for the ladder.
Name a cheese that isn't easy to accomplish? Most require very little skill because they're at the early stages of the game where there is little macro and focus can be on micro.
If you understand the concepts of why this build is effective, it will make you better at PvZ.
This build is incredibly fun to do and many PvZs I've had on the ladder as a result of using this cheese turn out to be incredibly silly, fun games. I personally enjoy FEing behind this cheese and 1-base Nydus roach/ling all-ins can be incredibly challenging to hold off if the Zerg employs his Nydus canal well. It teaches both the Zerg and myself very crucial crisis management tactics for situations that you don't often encounter in normal games but are, nonetheless, very useful skills to have.
Comparing cheese to drop hacking? That's a slippery slope fallacy, my good sir.
^ Dude this does not lead to fun games at all. Maybe it's a challenge for you to play Spot-The-Nydus! but for Zerg it's an autoloss if you just get those pylons up.
Why do you do this if he's going hatch before pool? Zerg is just as fucked if he's going pool first if you do this.
If this happens to me and I fail to block it in time I will usually go proxy hatch (either in their base if they have a place without pylons and I'm feeling risky) or outside the natural and try and a roach bust, usually works
As BadBadMan said proxy hatch easy beat this. I always go 15 pool and scout with 13th drone. If he puts down this wall i put a hatchery in his main and go gas and roach warren. Most Protoss dont scout the proxy hatch in there main cause they are busy with the wall and feel save from any attack. Anyway even if he scouts the hatch he cant do much about it cause he doenst have a gate and if he starts building one the zealot finish same time as the hatchery. If he builds cannons around the hatchery u will be able to build 3-5 roach and a queen. u dont need to engage the cannons, just run away from them and start killing his eco. Since u have a roach warren anyway u can also build 2 roaches in ur main and start killing the pylon wall. I have never lost to the pylon block yet when i played proxy hatch.
^ That sounds incredibly luck based. I've never faced a Protoss so stupid to let a proxy hatch get up or doesn't react easily to it.
Because I know in Masters, much less Diamond, a Protoss isn't going to let you proxy a hatch, and (like the guide said) they will search for your hidden base, they will find it, and they will put cannons next to it without you being able to see it. If you try to throw a hatch in their face, unless they don't know how to deal with it, they'll just easily put a pylon next to it and when it's 50% done, they'll put 2 cannons next to it and cancel if you cancel.
So anyways, why would you do this against hatch first but not pool first? Zerglings don't pop in time and Zerg is just as fucked if they are walled in by going pool first instead of hatch first.
On September 16 2011 07:40 Belial88 wrote: ^ That sounds incredibly luck based. I've never faced a Protoss so stupid to let a proxy hatch get up or doesn't react easily to it.
Because I know in Masters, much less Diamond, a Protoss isn't going to let you proxy a hatch, and (like the guide said) they will search for your hidden base, they will find it, and they will put cannons next to it without you being able to see it. If you try to throw a hatch in their face, unless they don't know how to deal with it, they'll just easily put a pylon next to it and when it's 50% done, they'll put 2 cannons next to it and cancel if you cancel.
So anyways, why would you do this against hatch first but not pool first? Zerglings don't pop in time and Zerg is just as fucked if they are walled in by going pool first instead of hatch first.
I don't do this strat against pool first builds neither because what I'm trying to avoid is the zerg getting to drone up really quickly when he goes hatch first he could even get a quick 3rd if this were the case. With builds like 14 pool or the like, you already know that building a forge early is justified. Also, if the zerg goes hatch first and you scout him before you place your forge, you can go nexus before forge because you're totally safe and doesn't really put you behind. It's all about managing what you have and reacting to what your opponent does.
On September 16 2011 07:36 Mrs.Mirage wrote: As BadBadMan said proxy hatch easy beat this. I always go 15 pool and scout with 13th drone. If he puts down this wall i put a hatchery in his main and go gas and roach warren. Most Protoss dont scout the proxy hatch in there main cause they are busy with the wall and feel save from any attack. Anyway even if he scouts the hatch he cant do much about it cause he doenst have a gate and if he starts building one the zealot finish same time as the hatchery. If he builds cannons around the hatchery u will be able to build 3-5 roach and a queen. u dont need to engage the cannons, just run away from them and start killing his eco. Since u have a roach warren anyway u can also build 2 roaches in ur main and start killing the pylon wall. I have never lost to the pylon block yet when i played proxy hatch.
I Play zerg master 1000point
This does presuppose that the toss is busy with his proxy wall. Some prefer to just leave the wall there because the damage has been done. While he spent 450 minerals, the zerg wasn't able to expo. That's a pretty big deal. I am pretty sure that a cannon or two can be up on time to kill the hatch when scouted properly (if you are assuming the all tosses won't scout this in time, I think it's only fair I do assume that a toss will scout this in time.) And I have said this before. There is really no reason not to play safe when you are in such a huge economic advantage. Put down several pylons around the dark areas of the base even though you don't need them yet. place more cannons out front for the eventual timing attack because of the lack of an expo. Toss has 2 base (assuming he expands behind the wall. really, he has no reason not to against a hatch-first zerg because you know the pool and everything else will be later than a pool first build plus he either needs a drone to have been outside to do the proxy hatch or have to have nydus tech. If the proxy hatch is scouted (it takes forever to build a hatch, not to mention it only comes with one larva to begin with), you're pretty much wasted more minerals either 350 for hatch+drone or 150 for cancel + drone.
Wouldn't any buildings give support for a cannon drill? Like, a corner where you can bunch your drones and drill from there?
right, but by having all of your drones off mining for that long, just to have the building canceled, puts you far enough behind its gg anyways
I strongly disagree. 3 wasted pylons, a forge and a cannon with supporting gateways, cancelled or not, is easily worth more than the mining time missed.
I don't do this strat against pool first builds neither because what I'm trying to avoid is the zerg getting to drone up really quickly when he goes hatch first he could even get a quick 3rd if this were the case. With builds like 14 pool or the like, you already know that building a forge early is justified. Also, if the zerg goes hatch first and you scout him before you place your forge, you can go nexus before forge because you're totally safe and doesn't really put you behind. It's all about managing what you have and reacting to what your opponent does.
Okay, I get what you're saying. I get you want to prevent Zerg from droning up, and what you're doing isn't wrong.
But that still doesn't answer my question. Why do you choose not to totally cheese out the Zerg and get a free win if he went pool first? It doesn't matter what opening Zerg does, if you get those 3 pylons up there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to win from that point. Zerglings come out too late to deal with the pylon wall.
I almost feel like your trying to say it's some sort of strategic move or something. It's not, it's an abusive move that just autowins. I'm not trying to vent here, but there's no strategy to it. It doesn't matter what build Zerg does, if you catch a Zerg out of position with his ramp-block drone, you autowin. There's nothing Zerg can do about it, there's no build order that is safer against it, you just lose.
Personally I go 14 pool and about 16 hatch against Protoss, because if Protoss didn't FFE I like to get speed quickly for scouting, dealing with proxy 2 gates, and 4 gates or dealing with any 1 base play as well as put pressure back. The only reason I don't hatch first in PvZ is not because of cannon rushes or wall-offs, it's because I'm not sure they are going FFE. If I knew 100% they were going FFE, I would hatch first every time, because zerglings won't be out in time for cannon rushes and someone doing a BOSS cannon rush or a wall in or a simple proxy cannon will always win against no matter what Zerg opens with, they just have to have drones on hold position and another following the probe and denying him from going behind the mineral line.
I strongly disagree. 3 wasted pylons, a forge and a cannon with supporting gateways, cancelled or not, is easily worth more than the mining time missed.
The problem with the drone drill is that it's highly map and spawn dependent. There are many maps and spawn points that you simply can't do it on effectively, like any spawn on Typhon peaks. But you're right, to do a drone drill effectively you need to pull at least 15 drones. Protoss will have a much higher income even if he throws all that stuff down with his mineral line mining away at full strength the entire time.
As a zerg who suffered enough from P's cheese i actually blame Blizzard for this. The sad part of this is that Blizz guys are perfectly fine with this sh%t happening. They actually shown us that they just don't care about player's feedback, since there's almost not a single purely Blizz-made map used in any major tournament and still... they make more retarded maps!
But i think that what hurt's zerg's ego more than anything is the fact that there's absolutely not a single build(all in) that is guaranteed to do decent damage if not finish the game right away. And don't you F dare to name 6pool since the only mu where it actually take any effort at all to stop is ZvZ. If we do compare this to P's or T's actual state it is just frustrating. Brave and better players(mostly p and T lol) could say i just chose wrong race. But its not the case. Its just this "balance" infamous discussion should also go for balance between execution/counter difficulty issue. Why? Because in TvP all ins can be stopped with much more ease, while zerg have to sweat blood to actually stop an all in and THEN try to not die to after-all-in-cheese. Its just retarded the way early game works for zerg right now.
So my point is: there's always will be guys ready to take a free win, and blizz will allow it being in ladder. So my zergie friends... we'r f&cked : /
This wins because people are not prepared for it, and nothing more than that at all. This is not a good build, it just gets lucky cause Ladder is very volatile
I would appreciate it if you capitalized your words at the beginnings of sentences and didn't use shorthand notations. It's difficult to read your posts and to understand what you want to say.
What does OP think is the best counter to this? You mention an 80% winrate.
Also, feel free to read the Forum guidelines. It's stickied, so you can find it.
On September 16 2011 12:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: Dear OP,
I would appreciate it if you capitalized your words at the beginnings of sentences and didn't use shorthand notations. It's difficult to read your posts and to understand what you want to say.
What does OP think is the best counter to this? You mention an 80% winrate.
Also, feel free to read the Forum guidelines. It's stickied, so you can find it.
I saw some good zergs here posting on how to counter this, so u could look that up, as for capitalizing each word at the begining of the sentence...is it really such a big deal to u? wow
^ I don't think any good zergs said how to counter it, just lower level zergs saying to proxy hatch and hope protoss doesn't know how to make/cancel 2 cannons or spot for nydus.
I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
I have mentioned 2 times competent zerg standard responce to this and OP has absolutely no plan against that so i`m starting to think that he is just trolling.
It can be good if you know excatly how to capitalize on the fact that zerg natural hatchery will be later. But without good plan you will fall far behind in economy.
I saw a lot of Zergs go Roaches right after they scout the cannons and bust it. Then they drone while double expanding and using the Roaches to force a lot of cannons.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
On September 14 2011 20:03 StatX wrote: you can undo this with with a single creep tumor and a spine or 2 since they can hit from high ground.
That takes soooo long...protoss is miles ahead...
I've been encountering a lot of this on ladder (diamond). I actually don't have a clue how can Zerg not be behind after a forge opening...whatever kind. Doesn't matter if its a nexus 1st, fore>fe, forge>canon>fe, walling of your base, cannoning your natural, whatever he does i don't know how can zerg stay on pair with Toss...i am open for any tips...?
Preventing this from happening is the only way i can stay ahead, and sometimes even that won't help.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
You can either take a fast third or tech really hard (to the guy asking what to do against FFE).
I've seen a few pros do this as well, but they'll get about 12-16 lings early on to work on the rocks. I think this is horrible. You're pretty much forced to take a very far off expo, just use 3 spores or 1 spine if it's air or gateway (if they block the third they should block the natural for FFE ;/ )You can also go.... ling/infestor to hold off gateway timings, and then double expand once you hold off the pressure.
But yea, the 3 pylon wall off is an instant win. Protoss just gets a stargate, holds off possible mass 1 base roach, and then wins.
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
You can have 100 workers, you'll still be the same economy as someone with 24 workers. You can only saturate up to 3 workers per node, afterwords your actually very insignificantly hurting your economy. Long distance mining is hardly a way to get an economic edge. Also with the dynamics of 1 base larva inject vs 2 nexus chrono, Protoss will be way ahead of you in economy, especially being on 2 bases.
You're suggestion sounds kind of ridiculous. I don't know what level you play at, but Protoss on 2 base is miles ahead of a Zerg on 1 base (remember Zerg's supposed to have 1 extra base?).
It makes no sense that somehow you lose in ZvP when protoss doesn't do this and you have 2 bases mining, yet you claim to always win when your stuck on 1 base vs 2 base protoss...
Best way for Protoss to follow up is add a single stargate to hold a possible 1 base roach all-in, and make sentries.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
When I was using spine to kill pylons I always was very behind. Do you understand that toss can build probes from 2 nexus while you are producing drones only from 1 hatch? I have no idea how can you be not behind. Show me replay were you are ahead after doing this.. Not to mention you gonna die vs. 6 gate for sure.
spine isn't always effective, as their are maps with long distances from main to ramp. also better players will cancel/kill the third pylon and rally in zealots to gain vision/harass, which then denies spines and also owns zerglings/larvae
There are really still Zerg out there that don't patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp on any map that allows for this strategy?
It's so easy to counter: Just don't let the pylons get up.
Build hatch, send drone to patrol, as soon as he tries to get rid of that drone by attacking it, pull 2 more drones and deny it. Done.
Yes, a patrolling drone loses a little mining time, but if he intends on doing such a strategy, he will sacrifice a lot more eco and if he doesn't... well, as soon as your natural gets up, you'll jump ahead anyways and the single drone won't matter that much anyways, it gives you so much safety that you can make up for it later (a pair of lings should be out very soon anyways).
The best strategy against any cheese is to just not let it happen in the first place.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
You're supposed to kill the pylons before they finish, because you have an overlord watching at your ramp.
again, iv played enough games with this pylon opening, and not a single zerg killed the pylons while they r morphing
... there is some truth in what you are saying, I just checked, there are few variables to consider, 1. where the probe start building the wall off from. [a good zerg will respond the moment that the Protoss lay out his first pylon, and while using the drill technique there's only 1 or 2 pylons that you can attack, if the probe starts building from the wrong direction it will be easier to stop the wall off] 2. the people you were playing against never practiced the drill before, it's not such a complicated thing to do but it takes like 3 times to get used to the movement and considering you need to target different crystal for each map.. yeah using the drill technique takes some practice to be mastered perfectly. 3. Zerg's drone count... for obvious reasons, when I tested this I had 15 drones, which I think I'll have normally... maybe 14...
The results of my test: If I have practiced the drill before, and you started to build your wall from the wrong direction, I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP YOU! If I have practiced and you started building from the correct direction, you will have about 1-2 seconds to build 2 buildings to rewall me in or I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP IT... anyway if I didn't practice the drill before I wont be able to stop the wall in, and that is why the Zerg you fought against couldn't stop it in time.
And lastly, If you don't believe me you can PM me and I'll send you a triggered Xel'Naga Caverns map where you start with 15 drones and after 4-5 seconds a probe will start building pylons at your ramp from the correct direction.
can you pls upload the custom map? i would LOVE to practive the drill
http://sc2.nibbits.com/maps/view/136607/xelnaga-drill-pylon-block just send your overlord to your ramp and start mining, the moment you see the pylons being placed down take all your drones and start drilling, I managed to kill the bottom pylon 1 sec after it finished building.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
When I was using spine to kill pylons I always was very behind. Do you understand that toss can build probes from 2 nexus while you are producing drones only from 1 hatch? I have no idea how can you be not behind. Show me replay were you are ahead after doing this.. Not to mention you gonna die vs. 6 gate for sure.
I can see that your problem was that you were on 1 hatch.
I`m producing drones from 2 hatch fully injected - 1 inject that went on quick tumor. That is definitely more drones than 2 Chronoboosted Nexus can produce drones.
I start long distance mining when i break out which does not take eternity. 1-2 cycles from tumor and spine can start picking pylons.
Protoss may have economic advantage for a brief moment but my 1 base is saturated before protoss main is or natural in function + my 2 base are fully saturated before protoss has his 2 base saturated + I have workable tech with 2 gas that i take from main just to find drones something to do while getting 2nd base up with third hatchery.
I really dont know how u see this a problematic compared to banebusting protoss wall with 5-6 banes + some lings to tank initial shots. I think u will be most certainly be behind in worker count AND you have your base later. Your advantage is banetech which makes protoss to turtle slightly harder. Personally i would take worker and eco advantage over slight pressure but that is just me.
EDIT: Anyway my original point was that it`s pretty weird that OP didnt stress at all about spine breaking the contain which is fairly common. Not saying that it counters this or anything but not having ANY plan vs drone massing zerg can be pretty dangerous.
Which makes me wonder the legitness of the whole post. Has he really done it enough times to reach 80%? That takes at least 5 games and not a single spine busts..?! Just suspicious.
EDIT2: Belial88 post was so cute that i dont want to bash it :3 But i`m currently playing Master EU, third on Mutalisk Juliet with 1150 points. Rarely play vs GM players on ladder but i do and when i do i usually lose. So not highest EU master but i would still consider myself highish.
could easily be avoided if blizzard implemented some more tournament maps (or just added the depo at the bottom of the ramp). alot of troubles could be avoided that way
ok lol....... spinecrawlers solve that problem easily and roach rush will crush that off one base, and depending on tech can just burrow and kill you.... its easy when u do creep spread first > inject.
It's not as strong as people think, committing that much money to the 3 pylons and cannon will mean a later nexus and later cybernetics core, later warp gates, etc, while zerg is not behind at all and can bust out pretty easily as if he was just doing a one base play. If the protoss really does make A LOT of cannons then you know he has no army and can go for nydus play.
On September 16 2011 21:59 Xyik wrote: It's not as strong as people think, committing that much money to the 3 pylons and cannon will mean a later nexus and later cybernetics core, later warp gates, etc, while zerg is not behind at all and can bust out pretty easily as if he was just doing a one base play. If the protoss really does make A LOT of cannons then you know he has no army and can go for nydus play.
Actually. It is quite strong. Yes, he gets a later nexus, etc. But the zerg also gets later hatch. way later. And really, what are the zerg's options off one base? Can't produce lair tech constantly. So your options are very limited. Lings, banes and roach.
If you get lair tech, you can get a couple of hydras but the problem with that is if you choose to destroy the wall, he has ample time to prepare accordingly. If you choose to nydus, that is more money spent but that might be your best bet against a heavily macro-ing and tech-ing toss. Though, I must warn the zerg player that any toss that does this regularly will know that he should just play safe against any shenanigans by the zerg. What's the point on rushing to a very high tech or several techs when the zerg can't afford to rush to a high tech, too? Getting one stargate is not uncommon, and will in no way affect having ground units. Personally, I just use it to annoy the hell out of the zerg player some more and of course scout what he has, which is the most important reason to get the stargate so early. Besides, the protoss already has the tech to defend. It's not warpgate and it most definitely is not stargate. All he needs are (1) probes to prevent any nydus from going up in the main and (2) forge to make several cannons at the front. (No need to add a whole bunch all at once). Just spend a couple of 150 minerals every once in a while after your saturation is already more than one base because you know that while you are spending the 150 occasionally, the zerg still won't be able to match the amount you're getting, being on one base.
On September 16 2011 21:28 L3g3nd_ wrote: what if the zerg is smart and simply doesnt let you get the pylons up?
Then, good sir, we have a regular game.
On September 16 2011 21:09 CruelGame wrote: ok lol....... spinecrawlers solve that problem easily and roach rush will crush that off one base, and depending on tech can just burrow and kill you.... its easy when u do creep spread first > inject.
May I point out, kind sir, that roaches with burrow and burrow movement off one base, no less, will no longer be a roach rush and breaking through their wall with roaches will trigger the protoss to prepare defenses accordingly with a combination of cannons, stalkers and void rays. Furthermore, burrowing will do nothing because of said cannon tech.
On September 16 2011 19:05 RoastedDrone wrote: But if the zerg uses the drone drill and you build gates for support, aren't you wasting more money on a non-game ending tactic?
I think the OP's idea is to make your drone drill useless. While he spent some minerals warping in gateways that he will cancel, the zerg lost mining time. What are the exact amounts of losses? Well, for toss, it's easy. 50 minerals per gateway canceled, if i'm not mistaken. But the zerg's lost minerals due to loss of mining time is a bit harder to calculate but I'd say that at most the toss will be just slightly behind. And for the price of the zerg not being able to take his 2nd base? That is well worth it, IMO.
On September 16 2011 10:47 Belial88 wrote: But that still doesn't answer my question. Why do you choose not to totally cheese out the Zerg and get a free win if he went pool first? It doesn't matter what opening Zerg does, if you get those 3 pylons up there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to win from that point. Zerglings come out too late to deal with the pylon wall.
Well, I guess for the OP, he said he doesn't like to do it every game because things like his game sense will degrade because you don't play a normal game anymore. Also, I don't think this can be done for pools before 14. And pools before 14, I'd rather just get an economic advantage by getting my nexus up earlier and defending their 1 base push. 6 cannons with a few ground units will be able to hold off a lot. No need to hold back on cannons when you scout early roaches incoming or that he doesn't have a hatch at the natural. You're ahead so just prevent him from catching up by getting your natural destroyed. By the time he puts down his natural, you've already mined a significant amount of time at your own and he spent a lot on army units instead of focusing on econ.
Edit: Just a suggestion but I think this guide would be better if the OP can put all the zerg responses that he has faced and that have been mentioned in this thread as well as how to properly respond to these because as of now, I think a lot of people are saying that this is a bad thread because he only placed one zerg response when in actuality there are so many. I, myself have faced a ton of different builds whether I go for a normal FFE or the one blocking off the opponent's ramp. That is why I always say that FFE is a very reactionary build and not set in stone by very specific build orders.
Here are a few that have been mentioned: (1) creep tumor and attack wall off with spine crawler (2) baneling break the wall (3) nydus worm in protoss main (4.1) 2 hatch nydus worm outside protoss natural with queens and roaches (4.2) 2 hatch nydus worm outside protoss natural with hydras and lings (5) one base mutas (6) roach break wall (7) proxy hatch in-base (8) proxy hatch outside (not for mining but for roach attack) (9) overlord drop (I don't know about this but it sounds silly off one base for zerg but it was mentioned so...) (10) roach break and attack with burrow and burrow movement
And these are all just the different responses from the FFE with walling off the opponent's ramp.
The thing is roach / ling / baneling is very cost-effective against all gateway units as well as for sniping cannons, if the zerg plays smart and hits good timings most protoss won't be able to deal with it. Banelings are not cost effective for breaking this wall (and a good zerg player won't waste the resources trying it, the best way to deal with a contain is to kill the contain without losing any units aka vs safe roach / spine sniping up on cliffs or by avoiding the cannons all together with nydus). The point is toss will need A LOT of cannons if he wants to delay the zerg expo significantly (which means fewer cannons at home) or sacrifice the contain for safer play at home. Either way there is a weakness the zerg can take advantage of, its hard to say that this build puts protoss significantly ahead if the zerg uses his head instead of giving up because the protoss has an earlier expo. The later zerg hatch sacrifices late game strength for early game strength that zerg has to take advantage of, force the protoss to build many cannons at his expo and pull probes to defend.
On September 16 2011 23:32 Xyik wrote: The thing is roach / ling / baneling is very cost-effective against all gateway units as well as for sniping cannons, if the zerg plays smart and hits good timings most protoss won't be able to deal with it. Banelings are not cost effective for breaking this wall (and a good zerg player won't waste the resources trying it, the best way to deal with a contain is to kill the contain without losing any units aka vs safe roach / spine sniping up on cliffs or by avoiding the cannons all together with nydus). The point is toss will need A LOT of cannons if he wants to delay the zerg expo significantly (which means fewer cannons at home) or sacrifice the contain for safer play at home. Either way there is a weakness the zerg can take advantage of, its hard to say that this build puts protoss significantly ahead if the zerg uses his head instead of giving up because the protoss has an earlier expo. The later zerg hatch sacrifices late game strength for early game strength that zerg has to take advantage of, force the protoss to build many cannons at his expo and pull probes to defend.
Unfortunately, kind sir, there will be no good timing for getting all these up. You need to get roach warren, baneling nest, lair and nydus worm off of one base and you think there is still a chance that a toss player won't have his expansion kicking in yet? That I just don't understand. Why this wall off is so strong is because it guarantees that: (1) the zerg will have to tech up to get out sneakily (unless he is somehow able to sneak a proxy hatch which presupposes that he has a drone outside and the protoss doesn't scout). Or (2) the zerg will have to spend time making units before hatch, which is very rare these days (Usually the zerg will have only a few lings before he starts getting an expansion) unless he opts for a 1 base all-in, which in this case will surely be scouted because that will have to break the wall down.
It's not like the toss will just see "oh, he's breaking down my wall. I'll wait for him to use all the units he made and let him walk all the way across the map before I start making units from my gateways and a stargate (if any) and cannons. I'll just continue my probe production while he's crawling up towards my base." Basically he's just matching your production of units. It's not like it's wasted because you spent money on army, he spends money on army. He's on 2 base, you're on one base. While you are right that roach/ling/bling does ok against gateway units or cannons, they don't do so well when it's gateway units AND cannons.
So even Mage36 cannot theorycraft what to do against zerg most obvious responce. And OP has no answers either. Its pretty frustrating to post any real constructive comments as this threath will fill up "omg just roach-ling rush ggggg" or similar "1base vs 2base ggggggg".
I give up. I have many times given pretty clear strategy vs this that works and no-one is not even reading it propeprly. I doubt OP is high master becouse the huge cap he had in his guide. Yeah this works if zerg panics.
On September 17 2011 02:10 Arir wrote: So even Mage36 cannot theorycraft what to do against zerg most obvious responce. And OP has no answers either. Its pretty frustrating to post any real constructive comments as this threath will fill up "omg just roach-ling rush ggggg" or similar "1base vs 2base ggggggg".
I give up. I have many times given pretty clear strategy vs this that works and no-one is not even reading it propeprly. I doubt OP is high master becouse the huge cap he had in his guide. Yeah this works if zerg panics.
Arirmind signing out from this topic.
Good sir, if you may be kind enough to discuss with me about your build as I would like to learn more about it. Yes, while I have not played against this, I do have some thoughts and questions but nothing too concrete because, again, I have not played against this.
What else do you get behind the drones you produce? Or do you just produce all drones with the two hatcheries? (found answer: yes) That is something I'm not too clear about with regards to your build. Will you be able to deal with a stargate? I mean I'm sure you will have at least two queens but what else will you have? (found answer: 2 queens, 2 hatch, 0 lings) What tech do you go for as you are breaking down the wall? Do you just have one spine to break down the wall? Approximately how long (in game time) before you can move your drones to distance mine and start your natural hatchery? Approximately how many drones do you get from this? (found the answer to this one: you said approximately 50.) Do you get a lair before you get your natural hatch?
I don't know. My initial assessment from your previous posts is that while the protoss gives 450 minerals "away for free", it seems like building so much drones without additional patches to mine from and having to wait to kill the wall may cost more than 450 minerals worth of lost mining time that the zerg would have had if he were mining from those additional mineral patches. Of course the 450 I say, I cannot quantify. It's just my guesstimate by you saying that you'll be leagues ahead of the protoss economy and that the protoss would have 30 probes by that time you break out.
What I am having a hard time reconciling is that assume a normal forge fast expand with no intention to wall off and the zerg does a 15 hatch and drones off two hatcheries while perhaps getting a third one somewhere along the way. Won't the zerg be in a better position with this? And that is hardly unbeatable.
Though suppose I'm wrong. Suppose that the protoss losses 450 minerals and the zerg doesn't lose 450 minerals worth of mining time from not having those extra patches to work on. I think we can agree, though, that you still lose a fair amount, which would not be far off from the 450 that can easily be quantified by the losses of the protoss. Wouldn't that mean that it would just be pretty much close to having the zerg do 15 hatch and not doing anything about it?
Maybe I do not understand your build completely, but that is what I got from re-reading your post about your build. I just want to get a better grasp of what you do. So if there are any flaws in my logic, please kindly point them out and let us have a healthy discussion about it. Thank you, kind sir.
Edit: In light of doing a bit more searching through your posts, regarding the fact that you have 50 drones on one base before you can start distance mining. That is a lot of drones but really once you hit 30, they're not doing you any good for a while. A long while, which I guess would be lost mining time. A lot of lost mining time. (which just one round of lost mining time from those 20 drones would already be 100 minerals not mined). And I'm pretty sure that majority of these drones will lose more than just one round of mining time. So I'd estimate that you still lose more than the 450 minerals that the protoss sacrificed.
Again, I am saying this in the most respectful way and I'm just asking your point of view and your arguments and why you think I'm wrong.
On September 14 2011 21:47 shoop wrote: I hate all these moral judgements flying around. If a strategy is successful, what business do you have telling people it's bad to use those strategies? Any strategy that wins is a good strategy, this is really just the "no rush 15 min" attitude in disguise.
@lcl: "What's the point in having a build only for ladder?": any build is "only for ladder" if, like most people, you don't participate in tournaments. This is like saying "what is the point in singing only in the shower". Weird question.
@Saechiis: "flaunt your 80% winrate" suggests that the OP is a braggart. I can find no evidence of that. He could have written "this always wins", instead the OP tries to give a realistic assessment.
@schmutttt: "How is this new?" OP correctly points out he never claimed it was new.
@Sententia: "Why not become better and get there legitimately?" What kind of legitimacy are you talking about here?
There is always going to be variability in what kind of motivations people have for the game, how they like to behave and what kind of strategies they want to use and the reasons for doing so. It is ridiculous to expect everyone to stick to a narrow code of conduct in a game like this. I sure as hell will never subscribe to such a code. In fact, it would be horrible if some of you guys got your way and there would be a starcraft honour code: everyone would quickly become terribly vulnerable to cheese, leading to a more unstable metagame.
Although I understand that you get annoyed if you die to this guy's strat, the way to make it disappear is by preparing against it so that its success rate drops. Tl;dr: please stop complaining and deal with it. There is no moral flaw in the OP.
Good post. I like your "singing in the shower" analogy.
I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
On September 17 2011 04:27 brainpower wrote: I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
Looks like I'll be trying this, thanks for the explanation
On September 17 2011 04:27 brainpower wrote: I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
How do you scout for various timing attacks? Assuming you have spine and only drones you would die easily.
re: spine crawlers. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet* is placing your in-base hatch near the ramp so you don't have to use creep tumors to get spines down. This lets your first queen keep injecting. When the hatch is ~40% done make your spines at the edge of your creep. Move them over and your hatch will be done.
Personally, I've reverted back to Nerchio's 8 pool vs toss on most maps because of pylon walls. 8 pool, 2x drones, ov (+ scout if necessary), 8 zerglings, queen and drones into expo
* Edit: Looks like I missed that in brainpower's post.
I do this build on taldrim alter if Zerg goes for 15 hatch which they tend to do on that map if they dont I just go ffe only difference in my build I scout on 9 and send a second probe out if I don't find hiim on first try. as long as you scout for nydus all in/ hidden hatchery u should win. an expo into 6 gate should kill or do a 1 gate double stargate
and listen ... i honestly think most Protoss who use this cheap build are scum i'm Rank 3 diamond (Almost masters) and i've been going
Blind 6 pooling or 10 pooling most protoss on Ladder because Protoss keep Forge Cheesing.
Give em some of their Own Medicine Zergs i can tell you this.
Now if you go blind 6 /7 pool and/or 10 pool and the protoss does a forge expand/Cheese/Pylon-Wall off
You will win guaranteed. If you have good micro. If they go for a 1 base play use your worker to block the buildings at their ramp and harass rally lings in and profit.
Make sure to attack the pylon asap when your lings get in so his zealot can't get out.
I always nydus my way out of these situations, the three pylon block has never actually worked on me.
But that doesn't mean much because I'm only in platinum.
With all the minerals invested in cannons and pylons at my ramp I usually have an absolutely massive upper hand with a good 40 lings nydus'd in protoss main.
If you don't 11 overpool 18 hatch. (which is a hard counter to this).
Then you should be 14 hatching and 15 pooling against P. The trick to stopping protoss cheese like this is to always send TWO (2) workers two your natural at 15 supply (around 150 minerals). You need them in any of the following reasons: 1. There is a probe blocking expo, then you can chase him away quickly. 2. Pylon goes down where natural expansion should be - 1 chases drone/scouts while the other waits for the pylon to be cancelled and expands (or just attacks until zlins pop). 3. The OP's build is used - when you see the first pylon go up to block your ramp, use the drone following the probe and move to the location where the middle pylon would go and procede to put up your expo, pump lings as soon as you can and the game is over. 4. No probe is at the natural - put up expo and scout with the second.
If you don't react to this properly as a zerg, you deserve to lose anyway. Good zergs used to be able to deal with this sort of pylon block when it only took 2 to block a ramp. Sure, they would generally be playing from behind, but it's not game-ending in any way. Also, the money wasted by doing this is now even more. Zergs, remember when this shit was popular, and you would make a drone patrol the foot of your ramp, once your ovie saw the scouting probe? Nothing has changed. Protoss just tried building the garbage in their natural for a while, so they could expand. Now the garbage is simply at the foot of your ramp. Roaches still own this. You can still overpool, but obviously it's risky to hatch first against this. Also, how does this even work on a 4P map? I'm thinking this 80% win-rate is somehow related to an 80% hatch first rate among the higher ranked greedy zergs.
Any zerg going pool first and losing to this is an embarrassment. They're obviously still trying to make nothing but drones. Spines and creep is too slow at breaking this contain. Get it through your heads zergs.
On September 17 2011 04:55 maragin wrote: re: spine crawlers. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet* is placing your in-base hatch near the ramp so you don't have to use creep tumors to get spines down. This lets your first queen keep injecting. When the hatch is ~40% done make your spines at the edge of your creep. Move them over and your hatch will be done.
Personally, I've reverted back to Nerchio's 8 pool vs toss on most maps because of pylon walls. 8 pool, 2x drones, ov (+ scout if necessary), 8 zerglings, queen and drones into expo
Actually if you look at the last paragraph of my post, I did mention that. However, the tumor gets your hatch up slightly faster, and if you are going to make both the inbase hatch, the spine, and 2 queens, and 2 gas you aren't actually able to afford to make drones the entire time if you constantly inject, so you want to get the tumor anyway.
On September 17 2011 04:49 Ryndika wrote: How do you scout for various timing attacks? Assuming you have spine and only drones you would die easily.
To scout for timing attacks, you need to remember that he has no cyber core until ~5 minute mark. You can just park an ovie on his base outside of cannon range, and he can't do anything about it until his first sentry is out around 5:30. If he is going for some aggressive air play, you'll see the starport go down unless he purposely delays it until he chases you out. Even then, you won't actually see a void ray until 8 minutes at the absolutely EARLIEST. It turns out that you can't support 2 hatch worth of drones off 1 base if you constantly inject, especially if you tech at all. Use an inject or two to make extra creep tumors and as soon as the cannon goes down, get creep going towards your 3rd ASAP, and your 3rd will have creep well before any void+phoenix shenanigans.
Once the wall is down, you need to make a few units anyway to go kill the cannon, although I don't think it is best to attack his natural until after your natural is up. Its much better to ride you're drone lead and set up for a 3rd. By then, you'll have finished whatever upgrades you chose to spend all that gas you stock piled earlier. Personally, I like infestor tech. Getting 2 gas geysers up before the protoss even gets 1 and going strait to lair is just really nasty because of the amount of energy you can gather. There is basically no risk of templar with storm, and only max 1-2 colossi, if that. Let your natural kick in, pressure while taking your 3rd, and thank the protoss for putting himself over a minute behind to let you drone for 3 minutes straight.
On September 17 2011 04:27 brainpower wrote: I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
Those are some really interesting points, I would want to experiment with that and see how it works. It might actually make more sense to oversaturate in that case then go for a bust.
On September 17 2011 04:55 maragin wrote: re: spine crawlers. Something that hasn't been mentioned yet* is placing your in-base hatch near the ramp so you don't have to use creep tumors to get spines down. This lets your first queen keep injecting. When the hatch is ~40% done make your spines at the edge of your creep. Move them over and your hatch will be done.
Personally, I've reverted back to Nerchio's 8 pool vs toss on most maps because of pylon walls. 8 pool, 2x drones, ov (+ scout if necessary), 8 zerglings, queen and drones into expo
Actually if you look at the last paragraph of my post, I did mention that. However, the tumor gets your hatch up slightly faster, and if you are going to make both the inbase hatch, the spine, and 2 queens, and 2 gas you aren't actually able to afford to make drones the entire time if you constantly inject, so you want to get the tumor anyway.
Actually, the post you quoted contains an asterisk. That asterisk leads to an immediate edit where I referenced that you mentioned it above, including your name. This happened as your post wasn't there when I started posting (within a half hour of each other).
I'd have to test the timings (can't, at work). When I was testing against this, I was on Nezarim Crypt where the ramp is in a different zip code. The hatch near the front seemed great, and didn't interfere with any injects at all. Will have to test again sometime this weekend.
On September 17 2011 04:27 brainpower wrote: I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
On September 16 2011 12:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote: Dear OP,
I would appreciate it if you capitalized your words at the beginnings of sentences and didn't use shorthand notations. It's difficult to read your posts and to understand what you want to say.
What does OP think is the best counter to this? You mention an 80% winrate.
Also, feel free to read the Forum guidelines. It's stickied, so you can find it.
I saw some good zergs here posting on how to counter this, so u could look that up, as for capitalizing each word at the begining of the sentence...is it really such a big deal to u? wow
Yes, it is a big deal to me. This isn't 4chan.
I did read what they had to say (the blue posters). I also read what you had to say about your strategy. However, you chalked it up to you making mistakes and misreading the zerg. I would like to know what you are genuinely afraid of when you do this build. This would help me as a player to know what goes through the head of a Protoss when he does this build.
Arir you are aware that ~24 probes spread on 2 bases is almost twice the income of 30 workers on 1 base right? Why would you think you are ahead economically of a protoss who can double chrono boost 2 nexii?
If what you're saying is so true, why wouldn't you just play 1 base 2 hatch every game? That way if Protoss doesn't wall you in, you're ahead, and if he does wall you in, well, GG right?
What you're saying is ridiculous. It makes no sense how you claim that 1 base Zerg is 'ahead economically' of 2 base FFE protoss, even though it's common knowledge that 2 base Zerg is behind a FFE protoss despite larva inject and 2 queens.
Well, I guess for the OP, he said he doesn't like to do it every game because things like his game sense will degrade because you don't play a normal game anymore. Also, I don't think this can be done for pools before 14. And pools before 14, I'd rather just get an economic advantage by getting my nexus up earlier and defending their 1 base push. 6 cannons with a few ground units will be able to hold off a lot. No need to hold back on cannons when you scout early roaches incoming or that he doesn't have a hatch at the natural. You're ahead so just prevent him from catching up by getting your natural destroyed. By the time he puts down his natural, you've already mined a significant amount of time at your own and he spent a lot on army units instead of focusing on econ.
So it has nothing to do with if zerg hatches first or not - the OP made it sound like he is actually making some brilliant tactical decision and strategy rather than just being abusive. Sure paints a different picture of this awesome strat!
Any early pool I suppose can deal with this, like 10 pool, but then there's issues with Protoss just lol-cannons at home and GG.
If you don't react to this properly as a zerg, you deserve to lose anyway. Good zergs used to be able to deal with this sort of pylon block when it only took 2 to block a ramp. Sure, they would generally be playing from behind, but it's not game-ending in any way. Also, the money wasted by doing this is now even more. Zergs, remember when this shit was popular, and you would make a drone patrol the foot of your ramp, once your ovie saw the scouting probe? Nothing has changed. Protoss just tried building the garbage in their natural for a while, so they could expand. Now the garbage is simply at the foot of your ramp. Roaches still own this. You can still overpool, but obviously it's risky to hatch first against this. Also, how does this even work on a 4P map? I'm thinking this 80% win-rate is somehow related to an 80% hatch first rate among the higher ranked greedy zergs.
Any zerg going pool first and losing to this is an embarrassment. They're obviously still trying to make nothing but drones. Spines and creep is too slow at breaking this contain. Get it through your heads zergs.
Huh? Unless Zerg goes something like 8 pool for aggressive zerglings (in which case they basically GG lose to FFE, like in this build), the wall-in will be up before zerglings. These kind of posts that know nothing are annoying, if you knew the timings better you'd know 14 pool is too late to deal with this. It's not a strat, it's abusive and Zerg autoloses unless Protoss is dumb and lets a nydus or mass roach streamroll him. Zerg just has to patrol a worker, it's he either he's doing it, or he isn't, he either is okay, or he loses.
Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground.
Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote: I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose.
The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop.
As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch.
Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option.
I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know.
On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote: Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground.
Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him.
On September 17 2011 11:04 Ghost131 wrote: Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLMqWSwzeZw&feature=youtube_gdata Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
No offense, but you sound like a total douchebag between your BM, your comments, and your "lol the idiot didn't move his drone and so I lost to an idiot [who was smart enough to keep his drone on hold position to prevent me from coming back and trying to wall him in and do the only thing he could do to stop this]"
There's no strat to this, and like your video shows, it doesnt matter what build Zerg does, Zerg will autolose to this (I think 11 pool is the only timing taht works, earlier pools is lolautowinwalloff 6 pool fail, later pool is late). Zerg has to hold position, that's the only thing.
Which is fine. But if you think there's any strat to this that's ridiculous. It's just abusive against Zergs naive enough to not have hold position.
On September 17 2011 11:04 Ghost131 wrote: Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLMqWSwzeZw&feature=youtube_gdata Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
No offense, but you sound like a total douchebag between your BM, your comments, and your "lol the idiot didn't move his drone and so I lost to an idiot [who was smart enough to keep his drone on hold position to prevent me from coming back and trying to wall him in and do the only thing he could do to stop this]"
There's no strat to this, and like your video shows, it doesnt matter what build Zerg does, Zerg will autolose to this (I think 11 pool is the only timing taht works, earlier pools is lolautowinwalloff 6 pool fail, later pool is late). Zerg has to hold position, that's the only thing.
Which is fine. But if you think there's any strat to this that's ridiculous. It's just abusive against Zergs naive enough to not have hold position.
Lol I already said it was abusive if you actually read my message. Also, why are you so mad? Btw you have to set the drone on patrol.
On September 17 2011 11:04 Ghost131 wrote: Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLMqWSwzeZw&feature=youtube_gdata Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
No offense, but you sound like a total douchebag between your BM, your comments, and your "lol the idiot didn't move his drone and so I lost to an idiot [who was smart enough to keep his drone on hold position to prevent me from coming back and trying to wall him in and do the only thing he could do to stop this]"
There's no strat to this, and like your video shows, it doesnt matter what build Zerg does, Zerg will autolose to this (I think 11 pool is the only timing taht works, earlier pools is lolautowinwalloff 6 pool fail, later pool is late). Zerg has to hold position, that's the only thing.
Which is fine. But if you think there's any strat to this that's ridiculous. It's just abusive against Zergs naive enough to not have hold position.
Lol I already said it was abusive if you actually read my message. Also, why are you so mad? Btw you have to set the drone on patrol.
im glad i made u happy, now im gonna make u sad by telling u how getting ladder pts is usefull. Once u get matched with someone better than u (pros) u will improve much faster than when ur matched with someone whos at ur lvl
and this build (unlike 7pool) has a followup, u dont win with just pylon block, u have to macro and adapt afterwards, so no. if u put a masters zerg vs a silver toss, silver would defo fuck this up
No, no, and no. You don't improve your boxing by jumping straight into the ring with Danny Green, you get your ass kicked and you limp home in defeat. You get better by competing against people marginally better than yourself so you have some points to start with to improve. There's so MANY things wrong with a silver level's play that it's essentially as easy to beat them as punching a baby in the face. It's not a build, it's placing 3 pylons at the bottom of the ramp on ladder maps. This thread and author makes me so angry.
can't go through every page so i'll ask here and come back later for an answer, what do you do vs a 1 base nydus?? in the past i've lost to 1 base nydus play (i'm high masters [WTF]) and doing something like this would seem to provoke it and leave you MORE vulnerable than what i was ( shakuras plateau Forge fast expand i did )
can't go through every page so i'll ask here and come back later for an answer, what do you do vs a 1 base nydus?? in the past i've lost to 1 base nydus play (i'm high masters [WTF]) and doing something like this would seem to provoke it and leave you MORE vulnerable than what i was ( shakuras plateau Forge fast expand i did )
i also dont see how this build stops the zerg from taking his 3rd with his scouting drone and then he has a natural that he can use to contain protoss on one base while teching to roaches or nydus...
this build like so many abusive builds is dependent on the fact that 80% of people (80% wr right?) will get tilted when facing it, and the other 20% keep their cool and win easily
Okay, so why doesn't the drone drill trick work? I'm just curious, sorry if its already been said.
EDIT: I'd also like to tell everyone that I just went into a VS AI game, and 14 probes (or drones I guess) kill a fully completed pylon in 32 seconds (ingame) using the drone drill trick. Please note that this pylon WAS part of a 3 pylon wall-in. A cannon warping in takes only 40 seconds. So also long as you see the pylon's going down, it doesn't seem that this is impossibly hard to hold off.
:3 Just my thoughts.
Also, a well-executed drone drill will do 35 damage. At least with 14 drones and in my minimal testing. Try it out for yourself .
However, a drone drill executed with SEVEN drones (read: half of 14) does 25 damage per drill. Can somebody with more time and better analytical skills test this further?
On September 17 2011 14:28 H2OSno wrote: Okay, so why doesn't the drone drill trick work? I'm just curious, sorry if its already been said.
EDIT: I'd also like to tell everyone that I just went into a VS AI game, and 14 probes (or drones I guess) kill a fully completed pylon in 32 seconds (ingame) using the drone drill trick. Please note that this pylon WAS part of a 3 pylon wall-in. A cannon warping in takes only 40 seconds. So also long as you see the pylon's going down, it doesn't seem that this is impossibly hard to hold off.
:3 Just my thoughts.
Also, a well-executed drone drill will do 35 damage. At least with 14 drones and in my minimal testing. Try it out for yourself .
However, a drone drill executed with SEVEN drones (read: half of 14) does 25 damage per drill. Can somebody with more time and better analytical skills test this further?
If14 drones takes 32 s to kill it. + 10 s to move to the wall and back to mining = 600 minerals lost from not mining.
Very true, but I think something strange about the AI in terms of worker stacking, and I don't believe drone drill damage increases arithmetically. I could be wrong though.
Yea this isn't anything new... Its just cheese + refinement (someone who just took a peice of cheese and then looked at how far it can go). I think protoss shouldn't even try walling in zergs or do any cannon rushes of any sort :| it is quite pathetic (especially with 11overpool)
But as far as this being a good cheese, its really only good if the zerg doesn't block/11overpool/7rr/6pool/dronerush
On September 17 2011 15:50 Kornholi0 wrote: Yea this isn't anything new... Its just cheese + refinement (someone who just took a peice of cheese and then looked at how far it can go). I think protoss shouldn't even try walling in zergs or do any cannon rushes of any sort :| it is quite pathetic (especially with 11overpool)
But as far as this being a good cheese, its really only good if the zerg doesn't block/11overpool/7rr/6pool/dronerush
....
I do not believe the OP suggested it was something new, merely something he had come up with independently as someone who does not watch much professional Starcraft 2. I am actually quite disappointed in the community's reaction to this thread, which is just meant to be an interesting little high-success build you can add into your ladder repertoire.
Let's be clear on a few things. I'm a high masters P as well, and I do a 3 pylon 1 cannon wall a lot and win with it a lot. Not every PvZ--that is bad--but every time 2 simple conditions are met:
I am playing on a map where FFE is my standard opener (tda, shakuras, nerazim, abyssal, sometimes shattered)
and
zerg goes hatch first.
Used against hatch first, is neither cheese nor "abusive"--it is normal. It is the protoss equivalent to a zerg all-inning a FFE attempt on Xel'Naga. This cannon rush is simply the proper response when you already went forge first and the zerg goes hatch first, end of story. If you are playing ZvP always patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp when you hatch first AND HAVE A 2ND READY TO REPLACE THE 1ST--I'll explain this in my write-up.
Here I'll explain my whole process, which I think is close to ideal, and answers a lot of the questions I've seen in this thread:
So I'm on a 4player map. I 9 scout after the nat pylon. If I scout him first, I go nexus first vs 14 pool (<12 pool or hatch first = drop forge). If I don't scout the zerg first, I build a forge on 13 AND 13 SCOUT THE OTHER DIRECTION WITH A 2ND PROBE. This keeps you safe from the classic 4player map blind 6/7/8 pool.
If the zerg went pool first anyway and I have my forge, I go nexus gateway cannon and play a normal macro game, leaving BOTH probes out to scout all-ins at specific times.
If the zerg went hatch first and has no drone patrol, I build the 3 pylon wall with the first probe that gets there (walling that probe IN his base for future scouting) and START PATROLLING 2 PROBES AT HOME. One probe is stopping him from hatch/evo blocking my natural, the other scouts for an in-base proxy hatch.
If he drone drills, the 2nd probe outside just reinforces and he loses 700 in mining time. I can also drop a high ground cannon in this case.
If the zerg drone patrols the bottom of his ramp, I attack his drone with my first probe to send it away (hiding the 2nd probe just out of sight) and use 1 or both probes to pylon wall asap. If it fails because the zerg responds correctly by pulling a 2nd drone to replace the first before I can wall, I make a nexus and play a standard game.
Okay so now the wall is up or I am playing standard. If the wall is up, BOTH probes now patrol EVERY EXPO on the map FOREVER. If he makes a hatch before breaking out, I make a pylon next to it and he has to cancel (start your cannon when the hatch is at 65% so you can cancel if you choose to after you see if he will cancel, although you can also let the cannon finish and use that as your 6gate proxy).
I make a nexus, double gas, and go either 4/5 gate stargate or 5/6 gate blink + obs, and have pylon spread to scout nydus AND patrol a drone in my main looking for nydus.
Zergs will "most often" roach bust down their main ramp AND take their natural AND attack your front with roaches AND nydus your main with lings at the same time. I think this is a pretty reasonable response and you simply have to take every precaution like I said and respond well and you will be safe. You will die here if you are greedy, careless, bad at watching your minimap, or some combination of the three. When you have a zerg walled in on 1 base it isn't a big deal to have 3 probes patrolling instead of mining--just do it.
What I think might be the best response, and I don't play zerg, is macro hatch the top of your ramp, spinecrawler break the wall, 1 base infestor into ling and double expand right when you break out and try to play as normally as possible.
With that said, the protoss is probably underprepared for a well executed multi-pronged all-in (so that might be a your best bet--again, with proper drone patrol you should never get walled in) OR is going to 2base timing you themselves (7 gate +2 attack, blink + obs) to exploit their period of economic advantage.
All in all, remember that hatch first ZvP is a nice advantage and you can't get mad at a P for trying to stop you with this any more than P can get mad at Z if you send 30 speedlings at our 1gate expo or FFE on Xel'naga. Greedy openers risk retaliation.
Finally, if you are doing a fast pool build like 11 pool 18 hatch and losing to this, you shouldn't be--you are ahead, so stop getting thrown off by a simple, 450 mineral wrench.
IF you want to improve your gamestyle and face better players. Don´t cheese, just dont do it. Wont make you better one bit...
Find a practice partner, go practice a few hours every day, smoothen out your gameplay. The argument "I cheese to face better players" is just invalid.
Play straight up, practice hard and you will rise on ladder. There are no shortcuts. Sooner or later you have to play those "pro" players and you will go lower and lower on ladder since you´re to bad of a macro player.
Otherwise cheese is good in tours... Oh wait, I forgot. You can´t actully do this cheese on tourmaps...
Or just put a drone at the bottom of your ramp like me and other Zerg players who hate losing to such skillless scrubs who obviously have no pride/dignity. Just my opinion people who do this kind of garbage are the lowest of the low, especially every game. Yea I'll lose some min to make sure toss scrubs can't steal a win off me. Lol I bet these players get a high sense of accomplishment when pulling this off lol.
Stuff like this and people like you really get me... You said you had a problem with the mu (which I fail to see how is even possible) so instead of learning to play the game to overcome your issues you use some retarded cheese. Not only that but you have the audacity to brag about it and make a guide....
On September 18 2011 00:38 Swwww wrote: Stuff like this and people like you really get me... You said you had a problem with the mu (which I fail to see how is even possible) so instead of learning to play the game to overcome your issues you use some retarded cheese. Not only that but you have the audacity to brag about it and make a guide....
I'm so sorry for you he's helping other players by teaching them something they might not know
My only issue with this thread is that its way too popular. Zergs have never been so aware of their ramp as they are right now, after everyone's read this =|
there's no way I can see this going down if zerg drone drills the second they see the blockoff happening. Maybe if they're dumb enough to let all three pylons finish, but I don't know. your 80% winrate must be a fluke vs really bad players or something, because the drone drill kills the pylon wall before the first cannon even starts building
On September 18 2011 00:56 Stropheum wrote: there's no way I can see this going down if zerg drone drills the second they see the blockoff happening. Maybe if they're dumb enough to let all three pylons finish, but I don't know. your 80% winrate must be a fluke vs really bad players or something, because the drone drill kills the pylon wall before the first cannon even starts building
The OP talked about that. He just puts down gateways to block the drone drill. The amount of time the drones spend off the line is much worse than the gateways hes going to cancel anyway once the cannon is finished.
The way to beat this build is very simple: kill the wall with 1 spine crawler, make a macro hatch, and just make 50+ drones, and long distance mine once your spine+6-8 lings break you out.
On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote: I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose.
The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop.
As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch.
Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option.
I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know.
On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote: Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground.
Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him.
You made some solid points and I'll definitely try to test out some timings, but I was just wondering... most only do this against hatch first builds so did you factor in the fact that the zerg attempted a 15 hatch and while probably half way done, he was forced to cancel. I think at this point the zerg would already have started their spawning pool by then but may not have it up in time to prevent the cannon. At least that's how it works out in the games I play.
On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote: I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose.
The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop.
As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch.
Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option.
I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know.
On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote: Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground.
Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him.
You made some solid points and I'll definitely try to test out some timings, but I was just wondering... most only do this against hatch first builds so did you factor in the fact that the zerg attempted a 15 hatch and while probably half way done, he was forced to cancel. I think at this point the zerg would already have started their spawning pool by then but may not have it up in time to prevent the cannon. At least that's how it works out in the games I play.
I'm sorry, I don't hatch first anymore on maps where you can get 3 pylon blocked. Its one thing for a protoss to wall you before you commit to a hatch. Then, he is just hoping you overreact, and waste money trying to bust out. When you hatch 1st, even if he went nexus 1st, he still has time to throw down the forge and block you. At that point, its no different than if he used zealot stalker pressure, or went all in on you when you tried to get your 3rd up. Its a response to the zerg trying to be greedy, and isn't cheesy at all.
On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote: I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose.
The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop.
As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw?
This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch.
Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option.
I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know.
On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote: Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground.
Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him.
You made some solid points and I'll definitely try to test out some timings, but I was just wondering... most only do this against hatch first builds so did you factor in the fact that the zerg attempted a 15 hatch and while probably half way done, he was forced to cancel. I think at this point the zerg would already have started their spawning pool by then but may not have it up in time to prevent the cannon. At least that's how it works out in the games I play.
I'm sorry, I don't hatch first anymore on maps where you can get 3 pylon blocked. Its one thing for a protoss to wall you before you commit to a hatch. Then, he is just hoping you overreact, and waste money trying to bust out. When you hatch 1st, even if he went nexus 1st, he still has time to throw down the forge and block you. At that point, its no different than if he used zealot stalker pressure, or went all in on you when you tried to get your 3rd up. Its a response to the zerg trying to be greedy, and isn't cheesy at all.
Ok. so now I see that we really differ from the get go already when we are discussing. Maybe that is why we have several differences in opinion. I don't do this other than for hatch first builds. I feel that if he doesn't go hatch first, I feel more confident and even more so if he rushes me with roaches or lings or a combination of any tier 1.5 units off one base (scouting it of course). And yes, the nexus comes pretty quick. In fact, I sometimes decide not to go for the 3 pylon block anymore if I have scouted him early and haven't gotten my forge up yet. But if I already started my forge, I do tend to go for the ramp block to punish the quick greedy hatch and then put down a nexus ASAP. Thanks, bro!
On September 18 2011 00:21 Galaxy_Zerg wrote: You would have 80%+ winrate with this
Why? because it's not balanced in my opinion
No other race has a lack of antiair and lack of tier1 units that are ranged
That's why it's a PvZ strat and that's it
If zerg wins the game after you succesfully doing this, you're terrible
Zerg should just leave, not waste their time trying to defend such bullshit, and go find another match when this happens
well yes, kind of? I don't like "tiers" but I would say that roaches are "tier1". And to say that you should leave and don't deal with this bullshit is a good reason to why it is succesfull. Atleast try to defend it. Also I, as I said in an earlier post, think the zerg in the replay handeled the situation fairly well. He was behind sure. But not in an unwinnable situation.
On September 16 2011 23:32 Xyik wrote: The thing is roach / ling / baneling is very cost-effective against all gateway units as well as for sniping cannons, if the zerg plays smart and hits good timings most protoss won't be able to deal with it. Banelings are not cost effective for breaking this wall (and a good zerg player won't waste the resources trying it, the best way to deal with a contain is to kill the contain without losing any units aka vs safe roach / spine sniping up on cliffs or by avoiding the cannons all together with nydus). The point is toss will need A LOT of cannons if he wants to delay the zerg expo significantly (which means fewer cannons at home) or sacrifice the contain for safer play at home. Either way there is a weakness the zerg can take advantage of, its hard to say that this build puts protoss significantly ahead if the zerg uses his head instead of giving up because the protoss has an earlier expo. The later zerg hatch sacrifices late game strength for early game strength that zerg has to take advantage of, force the protoss to build many cannons at his expo and pull probes to defend.
The problem is toss players know that the only chance we have is an early attack and that obviously puts the Zerg player in a very bad position.
I have done lots of research with this build, and the bottom line is, you will lose to a one base hydra drop if you insist on expanding, which is why the 3 gate blink transition is the most ideal.
I think it was because you kept telling us to brake and what happens if the Zerg brakes, and it was really confusing, because most of us aren't playing inside cars.
this thing is very effective. delaying expo and u putting some expo and transistion to air then colosi= EZ win against zerg who has 1 base less than u. but u need to have constant scout btw due to nydus or proxy hatch by zerg lol or drop
On September 16 2011 03:12 The Final Boss wrote: I still fail to see the point of this entire post:
This build is nothing new, it's been around forever. The only thing that's new in 12 months is building three pylons instead of two and then building gateways behind; neither of which are particularly new.
This build doesn't even work in a tournament so it doesn't even make sense to learn this cheese to use in a BoX series.
Because it's such an easy build to accomplish, it doesn't improve your mechanics whatsoever.
Despite coming across as a "Help thread to P's who struggle vs Z," your build will not really make a person better at PvZ.
This build is not fun to do or play against, and if you're taking out the fun aspect of a game AND you're not getting better at the game, then there really is no point in doing it.
If your only motivation behind doing this build is so that you can infuriate others and get to be higher ranked, then you might as well just become a drop-hacker; you'll get wins easier and make people even angrier.
Overall, I just fail to see a point to your thread, and since you didn't respond to my last post (which I'm assuming was because it was very long), I've decided to condense those thoughts here in what you could call a TL;DR. So I actually want to hear what you think the point of this entire post is.
I disagree with you and here's why...
The point of this build is that is does work on the ladder maps, so why not use it to gain an advantage? I've seen a few high ranked Korean Protoss favor this cheese over a standard cannon rush because of how effective it is for the cost of only 1 cannon and 3 pylons. It is a very effective cheese for the ladder.
Name a cheese that isn't easy to accomplish? Most require very little skill because they're at the early stages of the game where there is little macro and focus can be on micro.
If you understand the concepts of why this build is effective, it will make you better at PvZ.
This build is incredibly fun to do and many PvZs I've had on the ladder as a result of using this cheese turn out to be incredibly silly, fun games. I personally enjoy FEing behind this cheese and 1-base Nydus roach/ling all-ins can be incredibly challenging to hold off if the Zerg employs his Nydus canal well. It teaches both the Zerg and myself very crucial crisis management tactics for situations that you don't often encounter in normal games but are, nonetheless, very useful skills to have.
Comparing cheese to drop hacking? That's a slippery slope fallacy, my good sir.
Here's some problems with that. First off if you're investing 600+ minerals into shutting down your opponent's natural expansion, it's no longer an FE. What is the point of playing ladder games if you're not going to get any better or at the very least practice and become better at executing a build that you will use in some sort of tournament or BoX setting.
Knowing why this build is effective and why it works will allow you to understand PvZ when you're playing the first 5 minutes on ladder against a Zerg going Hatch First. That's a pretty specific scenario and once again it will not really help a Zerg get better. It's not a build that they'll ever have to expect to play against in a scenario that is not laddering and frankly it's just kind of stupid. It doesn't make you better at PvZ. It doesn't mean that you suddenly know all the timings that you'll have to encounter and when you finally meet a player who decides that since they're playing ladder and people do stupid builds like this all the time on ladder they put a patrol drone at the bottom of their ramp, suddenly the Protoss who you were helping "learn" PvZ has no clue what to do because they have no clue how to play PvZ.
And if you enjoy playing from a huge advantage against players that are really angry (any Zerg will tell you they hate this sort of build and do not enjoy playing against it), I feel like you have a serious problem. That's not fun, and neither is playing from behind. There is no way that this build will be fun unless you do something so stupid and idiotic that you somehow manage to even out the playing fields.
And I didn't compare cheesing to drop hacking. I said if you're going to do such a pointless and meaningless build than what on earth is the point of not drop hacking. You're doing something that will never improve your play and will infuriate your opponent just so that you can get virtual ladder points that mean nothing. Frankly, drop hacking fulfills every single criterion I just mentioned, and the only reason that it's worse really is that it breaks Blizzard's Terms of Service.
Plus, you completely neglected the first point I made, which is that your ENTIRE post is nothing that wasn't around and known about three months ago. What about your topic is new? The answer? Nothing.
I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays.
On September 18 2011 08:44 cltitran wrote: I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays.
So true. Too often, people just say something like "This is a dirty strat! I would feel very hurt if this was done to me. It's just unfair!" Instead of "This is a very hard strat to deal with but with a good discussion about this strat, I can find out what my opponent protoss might follow up with, what other zergs have been trying against this and how I can win the next time I encounter this."
Edit: These strats are here so we (as a community here in TL) can help each other. This guide/strat is here for the zergs as much as it is here for the protoss if we just stop for one second and think about how each race should react to this and discuss about it. That is why I thank the zerg posters who have given me their usual follow up so I can hopefully prepare for those the next time I play.
It's not about Protoss TLers vs Zerg TLers. Sometimes people forget that we are a community trying to gain information on the game of SCII and SC:BW. The goal of this thread should be that if you're playing someone who didn't read this, then, as zerg, you found out several reactions which may help you do something unexpected against your opponent and you know the followups of the toss player. On the other hand, as protoss, you will expect several other followups that are less popular than the nydus worm and be able to prepare accordingly.
On September 18 2011 08:44 cltitran wrote: I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays.
So true. Too often, people just say something like "This is a dirty strat! I would feel very hurt if this was done to me. It's just unfair!" Instead of "This is a very hard strat to deal with but with a good discussion about this strat, I can find out what my opponent protoss might follow up with, what other zergs have been trying against this and how I can win the next time I encounter this."
There is a solution.
It is called depots at the ramp on tournament maps.
On September 18 2011 08:44 cltitran wrote: I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays.
So true. Too often, people just say something like "This is a dirty strat! I would feel very hurt if this was done to me. It's just unfair!" Instead of "This is a very hard strat to deal with but with a good discussion about this strat, I can find out what my opponent protoss might follow up with, what other zergs have been trying against this and how I can win the next time I encounter this."
There is a solution.
It is called depots at the ramp on tournament maps.
Unfortunately, good sir, they don't have this on the ladder. So for now the solution would be preventing it with 1 drone patrolling at the bottom of the ramp or the good number of reactions that other zerg players have posted.
Edit: I also don't get when people say this doesn't work on tournament maps. I'm not saying it does. What I'm saying is that, yes it doesn't work, but not everyone of us competes in tournaments and almost all of us play on the ladder. If you were a zerg player, wouldn't you want to at least know some successful reactions of other zerg players when they encountered this on ladder? Even if you don't practice it, at least you have that in the back of your head. It's not like "Oh, it doesn't work on tourney maps and I can just tell my protoss opponent that I'll go hatch first and not to do this against me in ladder."
On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pool first stops this automatically. Nydus beats this. Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
Kind of sad that after 14 pages worth of posts, people still post things that have been already addressed in the OP (1st and 3rd). While the 2nd one has been discussed, that is more forgivable if you don't really have time to go through all the comments.
On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pool first stops this automatically. Nydus beats this. Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
Kind of sad that after 14 pages worth of posts, people still post things that have been already addressed in the OP (1st and 3rd). While the 2nd one has been discussed, that is more forgivable if you don't really have time to go through all the comments.
Except the fact that you're blind forging makes it silly, no? If it's a 4player map you may not even get to scout the Zerg in time, and then you're just behind on the gateway anyway if he's not going hatch first.
On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pool first stops this automatically. Nydus beats this. Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
Kind of sad that after 14 pages worth of posts, people still post things that have been already addressed in the OP (1st and 3rd). While the 2nd one has been discussed, that is more forgivable if you don't really have time to go through all the comments.
Except the fact that you're blind forging makes it silly, no? If it's a 4player map you may not even get to scout the Zerg in time, and then you're just behind on the gateway anyway if he's not going hatch first.
Also... drone patrol >.>
yea. drone patrol works to be safe against this, in which case you play a normal game.
Not really wasted since you can FFE if there is an early pool or pool first as you built the forge on the low ground. If you scout him early, you can probably even get the nexus before forge. If you don't then you have a forge then either nexus after cannon or cannon after nexus, whichever seems better based on what the zerg is doing, which includes droning up, in which case you can nexus after the forge or if he's saving larva, you can put a cannon to be safe before you put your nexus down and perhaps your gate after to protect the cannon. Probes may be included to defend the cannon in the event of really early pool while it is warping in.
I think that the real problem that this thread addresses is that Blizzard is stupid because their ladder map pool doesn't use tournament maps. Blizzard should make ladder a tool to be used practice for tournaments. If they changed Shattered Temple or Shakuras Plateau to the MLG versions, who is going to complain?
I play Terran (in other words I have the capability of abusing these maps, close spawns, bunker wall offs, ect.) but I don't want to because it takes all the fun out of the game. Whenever I spawn close positions, all I can think is "How hard would it be for Blizzard to just remove close spawns from this game?"
Blizzard needs to step up their map pool so that players playing at a high masters level (as the OP stated that he does) can play on MLG maps or even GSL maps to be able to prepare for play beyond the ladder. I'm just downright tired of having four horrible maps (Backwater Gulch, Nerazim Crypt, Searing Crater, and Abyssal Caverns) and even when you get lucky and don't play on one of those maps, you still wind up playing on Shattered Temple close spawns or other horribly imbalanced maps. It just doesn't make sense, but I guess that's Blizzard...
On September 18 2011 14:29 Narw wrote: Hey, cba reading this shit, but i would like to wish you dick in your ass for making this post, so now 50% of protoss players do this shit on ladder
Also i would like to say thanks to Blizzard for delivering astonish maps where "tactics"(?) like those are possible.
oh to derank and do it all over again as protoss JUST for the sake of doing this to zergs...
but im too close to Master League. I want that star. I want it so bad I can taste it.
On September 18 2011 14:29 Narw wrote: Hey, cba reading this shit, but i would like to wish you dick in your ass for making this post, so now 50% of protoss players do this shit on ladder
Also i would like to say thanks to Blizzard for delivering astonish maps where "tactics"(?) like those are possible.
oh to derank and do it all over again as protoss JUST for the sake of doing this to zergs...
but im too close to Master League. I want that star. I want it so bad I can taste it.
I'm happy that your pursuit of meaningless virtuall rank stops you from doing this so amazing and refined build. Rly i am.
On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pool first stops this automatically. Nydus beats this. Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
No it doesn't. Unless you 11 pool, there is no pool that matters (early pool is all-in which is lol against FFE, later pool is late).
It's obnoxious how many people insist they do this to punish hatch first, but Zerg needs to hatch first (oh... what exactly does zerg have to 'punish' FFE?) and hatch first is not risky at all.
Secondly if Zerg went 14 pool or 14 gas, they are just as fucked if you do this to them than if they went hatch first. Stop acting like you only do this when you see a hatch first, because it's not a strategy it's an abusive mechanic that's obnoxious as hell.
On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Pool first stops this automatically. Nydus beats this. Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
It's obnoxious how many people insist they do this to punish hatch first, but Zerg needs to hatch first (oh... what exactly does zerg have to 'punish' FFE?) and hatch first is not risky at all.
Secondly if Zerg went 14 pool or 14 gas, they are just as fucked if you do this to them than if they went hatch first. Stop acting like you only do this when you see a hatch first, because it's not a strategy it's an abusive mechanic that's obnoxious as hell.
If somebody on ladder is looking for this type of play, they can do an inbase hatch while drone drilling 1 of the pylons, then they can push with spine crawlers while droning up and still come out ahead. The amount of money to build all that stuff will be deemed useless once the spines break out and your down 950 minerals or so. forge150+3pylons300+cannon150+2morebuildings near pylondrill300+mining timeofprobe~novalue0-200.
I'm saying if Protoss does a BOSS cannon rush, a vanilla cannon rush, or an abusive mechanic like 3 pylon wall in, you are just as fucked if you went pool first as you would be if you went hatch first, because zerglings won't be out in time spines won't be there in time, nothing will be out in time for it.
So you might as well hatch first, because there's no risk to hatch first. There is nothing that Protoss can do that would make pool first safer than hatch first. You could be fucked in the ass with this BS, but you'd autolose if you went pool first too.
So just patrol your drone on the bottom of the ramp and send one drone to follow the scout and park an overlord by your ramp and natural, until you scout P's base to confirm he didn't go forge first. If he did, be vigilant until pool pops.
If somebody on ladder is looking for this type of play, they can do an inbase hatch while drone drilling 1 of the pylons, then they can push with spine crawlers while droning up and still come out ahead. The amount of money to build all that stuff will be deemed useless once the spines break out and your down 950 minerals or so. forge150+3pylons300+cannon150+2morebuildings near pylondrill300+mining timeofprobe~novalue0-200.
No you won't. Otherwise why not just inbase hatch every ZvP, that way if they only FFE without doing a pylon wall in, you'll be even right? Better yet, you could expand and take your natural and hope protoss doesn't wall you in, and then it's just autowin right? No way to lose if you have not just 1 base, but 2 against a FFE right?
Zerg needs their 2 hatches to be even with 1 base protoss, much less 2, and to keep up with chrono. Protoss is only down 450 minerals for doing this, not 950, while Zerg is down by much more than 350 mineral's (hatch+drone) in cost as they'd much rather pay 350 minerals for an expansion than not. All in all, Protoss comes out much further ahead.
Protoss also makes the forge at home so they can safely grab a super fast nexus before gateway (this build called FFE). It's not like they wouldn't have made it.
And you can't put spines to break this, the time it takes for 1 creep tumor to spread over there, make a spine, and break all 3 pylons down is more than 2-3 minutes, giving protoss plenty of time to... I don't know, 4 gate you, or stargate rush you.
I'm saying if Protoss does a BOSS cannon rush, a vanilla cannon rush, or an abusive mechanic like 3 pylon wall in, you are just as fucked if you went pool first as you would be if you went hatch first, because zerglings won't be out in time spines won't be there in time, nothing will be out in time for it.
So you might as well hatch first, because there's no risk to hatch first. There is nothing that Protoss can do that would make pool first safer than hatch first. You could be fucked in the ass with this BS, but you'd autolose if you went pool first too.
So just patrol your drone on the bottom of the ramp and send one drone to follow the scout and park an overlord by your ramp and natural, until you scout P's base to confirm he didn't go forge first. If he did, be vigilant until pool pops.
If somebody on ladder is looking for this type of play, they can do an inbase hatch while drone drilling 1 of the pylons, then they can push with spine crawlers while droning up and still come out ahead. The amount of money to build all that stuff will be deemed useless once the spines break out and your down 950 minerals or so. forge150+3pylons300+cannon150+2morebuildings near pylondrill300+mining timeofprobe~novalue0-200.
No you won't. Otherwise why not just inbase hatch every ZvP, that way if they only FFE without doing a pylon wall in, you'll be even right? Better yet, you could expand and take your natural and hope protoss doesn't wall you in, and then it's just autowin right? No way to lose if you have not just 1 base, but 2 against a FFE right?
Zerg needs their 2 hatches to be even with 1 base protoss, much less 2, and to keep up with chrono. Protoss is only down 450 minerals for doing this, not 950, while Zerg is down by much more than 350 mineral's (hatch+drone) in cost as they'd much rather pay 350 minerals for an expansion than not. All in all, Protoss comes out much further ahead.
Protoss also makes the forge at home so they can safely grab a super fast nexus before gateway (this build called FFE). It's not like they wouldn't have made it.
And you can't put spines to break this, the time it takes for 1 creep tumor to spread over there, make a spine, and break all 3 pylons down is more than 2-3 minutes, giving protoss plenty of time to... I don't know, 4 gate you, or stargate rush you.
So throw down a hatchery at your ramp instead of getting ling speed and a queen right away. Now you can continue droning and have 2 queens up on 3 hatches ready to all-in as soon as your natural finishes or take a 2rd expansion. His expansion will be up before yours, but you will have stronger production and economy once your natural finishes.
As a protoss I employ this strategy every now and then..really depends on the map and the expand timing from the zerg.
The problem is that the zerg usually panics and his macro fails. Opponent can't seem to get out of the "Expand or die" mindset. I'd say a cannon contain is a pretty compelling reason to do a nydus all-in. The worst possible response would be to use spines and queens to break down the wall. By the time the contain is broken toss will have been on 2 bases for a while. It's even better if you managed to sneak out a drone and take a hidden natural.
Don't forget, Toss just sunk 450-600 minerals into the contain. At a minimum his natural will be delayed until 21-23 and his army won't really start materializing until the 11/12 minute mark. If you can muster up a bust by the 9/10 minute mark, I think Zerg will be okay.
P.S - you don't have to Nydus into the main. A lot of times my cannon defense at my front will be much weaker because I simply don't see the point of building a ton of cannons right away. If I do look for a nydus it will be in my base..and if you nydus outside of my natural and bust my wall then I'm pretty much dead.
I've also seen some Zerg try for 1 base muta, but honestly 1-base muta is pathetically weak.
So how exactly do you stop this apart from having a drone on patrol? Against a non-retarded toss that is, people are saying you need a drone outside and expand to another base. If the protoss has an IQ above 25, which I agree is quite rare if they do this tactic, he'll have 1 or 2 probes patrolling the other bases. Nydus is so risky as well, as they know its a very good posibility they can put their pylons to spot for it..
To anyone saying that its better to hatch 1st than pool first against this, may I point you back a few pages? + Show Spoiler +
On September 17 2011 04:27 brainpower wrote: I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
As you can see, a zerg with an in base hatch is NOT behind a protoss who has delayed his expo so significantly. The best way to deal with this contain is to start with a standard speedling expand. The pylons go down just before your pool finishes. Cut your zerglings and zergling speed (no need for them since they can't get out), make 2 queens, macro hatch, a spine to break you out, and take both your gas. Up to you whether you want to roach, ling Bling all in once you break out or get your lair, and saturate your expo instantly. Either one can do well, but most protoss think they are ahead in a macro game and play dumb, but will be ready for an all in.
Just theory crafting here but has anyone ever tried canceling the hatch at the natural so you get your 300 mineral back, building the hatch at the top of your ramp then canceling it and building a spine crawler on left over creep. Then once your queen is out put down a creep tumor to save the spine crawler from dieing. This would get you a spine crawler up hitting the wall faster to break the contain and would cost less mineral then what the protoss sunk into the contain. Like i said i never tried it but kinda sounds like it might be an ok response.
Just played a game where opponent P did this to me...
I went fast 15 hatch 14 pool, cancelled hatch at last second after I saw the pylon wall, build another hatch with my scouting drone. Opponent scouted this hidden expa and cannon rushed that aswell. As soon as my pool pops I planted a spine, and made a creep tumor and used the spine to kill the pylons. Since the protoss used so much minerals to rush my twice, I assembled a roach push and killed his expansion with it. He got voidrays and the game lasted for like 40minutes,after I was finally able to win it...
Seems kinda bs tactic and the only real response I've come up with is to fast expand with your scouting drone, which also messes up if opponent find the hatch, which they usually do. Also if the protoss has half a brain he will just send like 2 zealots to hack the hidden expo, not cannon rush twice.
the fact that people can take wins with this, as well as the fact that people WANT to take wins with this, makes me fear for starcraft 2. cheesy/abusive builds are still FAR too effective for my (and i assume many others) liking.
in BW, you just had to put in the practice to understand the game and have good enough mechanics to win. in sc2, you can win games just by "executing builds" rather than deeply understanding the ins and outs of the game. Not to mention there are hundreds of little "exploits", much like this one, that are freewins. it would be awesome if people were forced to really work on their mechanical skill and game sense and understanding to be successful, unfortunately that is not the case right now.
Umm, what about spinecrawlers at the top of the ramp? I feel that would shut down this walling bs pretty quickly. especially if you throw a few banelings in.
On September 21 2011 06:16 Yoman wrote: Umm, what about spinecrawlers at the top of the ramp? I feel that would shut down this walling bs pretty quickly. especially if you throw a few banelings in.
You most definitely cannot even get a pool down before the pylons finish, much less banelings.
On September 15 2011 00:37 transience wrote: The best thing about the OP is his reference to the drone drill trick as "bullshit" - in a guide to the 3 pylon wall-in.
this still shouldn't be a problem. it's the same as a pylon/cannon wall. an overlord near the natural should pick it up as the pylons are building and by that time, the wall should never go up especially with the drone drilling technique. if the wall does finish, it takes a while for the cannon to come up and toss is just wasting minerals at this point. just make sure you always place the second overlord near your ramp/natural. and i'm a mid masters if you want to see some creds ^^,
This only works if they zerg does hatch first. and if he does hatch first, if hes not stupid hes gonna leave a drone at the bottom of his ramp to prevent this. bad strat. dependant on the zerg being fuckin retarded.
On September 21 2011 05:58 SeRenExZerg wrote: the fact that people can take wins with this, as well as the fact that people WANT to take wins with this, makes me fear for starcraft 2. cheesy/abusive builds are still FAR too effective for my (and i assume many others) liking.
in BW, you just had to put in the practice to understand the game and have good enough mechanics to win. in sc2, you can win games just by "executing builds" rather than deeply understanding the ins and outs of the game. Not to mention there are hundreds of little "exploits", much like this one, that are freewins. it would be awesome if people were forced to really work on their mechanical skill and game sense and understanding to be successful, unfortunately that is not the case right now.
All you gotta do is make a few roaches and start working on the pylons. Can even use your queen. Meanwhile making indoor hatch and mass speedling and roach to nydus somewhere (doesnt need to be inside his base) just smash his expansion or something.
ps What is the amazing drone drill? Drones can get through the pylons or something?
its funny how much i encounter this on ladder (Plat level)...i just patrol a drone at the ramp whenever i see the scout coming...its hard to stop when good players do this though...its just funny how people respond to posts on TL esp with 80% win rate...
Your level of sophistication and spelling is degenerative. You are not special or intelligent for posting this. You have just noted that Protoss can abuse cannon rushing to get to masters. You lower your race's credibility and worth.
Just a few things:
'r' is not a word, you are most probably looking for the word 'are' however 'our' also has a similar phonetic emphasis so 'r' is insufficient.
A similar statement could be made about 'ur'.
"this works really good against" was a line from your text. I'm sure you mean to say "this works very well against."
Let us start with these three english lessons.
To your actual post:
When you advocate 'cheeses' like this, it ruins the metagame of one of the greatest RTSs to grace this world as of yet. Please consider removing your account from Teamliquid and also Starcraft 2. I hope that you consider doing both, and if you don't please keep your inane strategies to yourself. Not only are you proving that I can demonstrate your IQ on one hand by explaining the simplest of strategies, but you are also revealing your astronomical hubris by assuming that people couldn't possibly know this strategy without your assistance.
Please delete your OP, it disgraces the game.
Much Obliged.
EDIT: to defeat this garbage from players of no worth like the original poster, here is a video of breaking the pylon block easily and quickly:
On September 21 2011 10:02 Gen_Syntax wrote: its funny how much i encounter this on ladder (Plat level)...i just patrol a drone at the ramp whenever i see the scout coming...its hard to stop when good players do this though...its just funny how people respond to posts on TL esp with 80% win rate...
When this happens, I like to pylon block the upper ramp and get a canon on the low ground while getting additional pylons going on the lower ramp if necessary.
You know what I think is a really good strategy? When I--as zerg of course--build three overlords on the ramp of a protoss and then build a spine crawler on the creepless area behind them. It is really effective especially because sentries and stalkers and zealots do zero damage to all zerg units.
whenever i see this, i always say to myself im probably going to lose. Just out of curiosity, is there really any way to beat this? The way I see it, if 3 pylons go down and you can't block that, you are gonna get owned by 1 probe
It's the plethora of abusive strategies like this one that cause me to have zero sympathy whenever a Protoss QQs to me about PvZ.
If you spend all your time working out gimmicky builds like this one, well then of course you're going to get smashed in a macro game. You gimmicked your way to Master's so obviously your macro is going to pale in comparison to your opponents.
What makes you think people don't already know this? And besides, it's probably the most retarded thing you can do. Imagine what it would be like if zerg was able to half your income, and you couldn't do smack about it until 6 minutes in.
So throw down a hatchery at your ramp instead of getting ling speed and a queen right away. Now you can continue droning and have 2 queens up on 3 hatches ready to all-in as soon as your natural finishes or take a 2rd expansion. His expansion will be up before yours, but you will have stronger production and economy once your natural finishes.
So why don't you just do that every game against FFE? Because it's bad!
Just theory crafting here but has anyone ever tried canceling the hatch at the natural so you get your 300 mineral back, building the hatch at the top of your ramp then canceling it and building a spine crawler on left over creep. Then once your queen is out put down a creep tumor to save the spine crawler from dieing. This would get you a spine crawler up hitting the wall faster to break the contain and would cost less mineral then what the protoss sunk into the contain. Like i said i never tried it but kinda sounds like it might be an ok response.
Your losing 1/4 of the money every cancel, and then the cost of a spine. There's a reason why people never make spines against FFE, it's because it puts you really far behind economically. The only options for Zerg is to 1 base all-in, which is weak and luck based, 2 base tech based build (which is weak, puts you behind a protoss doing a 2 base tech based build, and protoss will do it faster, ie 7 gate blink finishes before infestors), or a 3 base fast third econ build, which puts you even and can put you ahead if you hold off his pressure (and he doesn't take a third during it).
You can only drone drill on certain positions on certain maps, and Protoss will be in control. They can either add to the wall in, or stop, either way they will end up ahead economically. You need to pull just every drone to drone drill, while even though Protoss spends a lot of money, they are mining the entire time. They make a lot more than 450 minerals during the time you drone drill and subsequently attack with the drones when broken through.
Back in the beta, zergs would just patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp to prevent 2 pylons from going down and walling them in. I don't know why people are flaming so hard when something so simple can be done. If you lose to it once, you can just look at the replay and figure out what you did wrong, or could have done differently, and never lose to it again. It is just a silly cheese after all by your logic, right? That means they should lose the game if it fails, or the game just goes on normally with you being ahead if you prevent it. It is just like protoss being lazy about going forge/nexus first on a 4 player map not sending a second probe scout to check for 6 pool at the 3rd scouting location. You just lose if you scout them last. All you have to do is send another scouting probe out. Just like to not get pylon walled in, all you gotta do is have a drone there to prevent them from walling you in.
By the way the drone drill when done correctly will break a pylon in about 8 seconds. Select 15, move, attack, move, attack, and bam the pylons gone. I have a hard time believing you can get the gateway down after 3 pylons as long as the person scouts before the pylons finish
^ The issue is that it doesn't work on most maps and most spawn positions. Maps like backwater gulch, where the mineral line to the natural is 'behind' the ramp, causes this trick not to work.
And Protoss is mining the entire time you are drone drilling. So even if they spend a ton of money doing this, they are still actually mining. I suppose with perfect execution on the perfect spawn location, you may end up ahead, but Protoss can always cancel if they see you are drone drilling correctly, and end up ahead.
I think that maybe with testing, we could see who comes out ahead when you drone drill perfectly on top left shakuras. So maybe, maybe you could rely on this on certain map positions, but definitely not most of them. Certain maps like Typhon Peaks you will never get a drone drill off.
I hate pylon block. It is retarded and leads to easy games from the protoss.
He pylon blocks -> I expand to another base He scouts it -> Cannons behind the minerals (thanks to vision range you dont see until hatch finishes) -> I go roaches to save that expansion He goes VR and I lose because the bases are too far apart to defend with anything.
Terran can do this too, I don't see anyone ever talk about Terran doing it but they can do it with Bunker + Engineering bay I believe. They start then halt with a single SCV and then start building the second building, and then the second SCV comes along (that way you don't see 2 SCVs arrive at once which would prompt you to what was going on).
Wow I just tried this for the first time. Ridiculously good. The timing came out exactly. I ended up winning because of my early expo as a result of this block, and was able to get way good upgraded blink stalkers when he tried to counter with mutas. Needless to say I was always one base up.
On February 01 2012 07:42 LOLZEY wrote: hey, thanks for the guide. ive been using this on ladder against every zerg now, works quite well. however, things ive been dying to:
- nydus inside AND outside my base - overlord drops (for close air position zergs)
how you I best stop these? assuming they hit around 7 - 8 minuteish and i expand after i cannon the zerg. thanks!
Don't expand, stay on one base. 1 base Protoss beats 1 base Zerg.
On February 06 2012 16:53 zaradron wrote: This is why ladder needs to have the MLG style neutral supply depot, so cheese like this that's almost impossible to stop wont happen
This. I have been cheesed with that build a ton of times, that neutral supply it's needed.
There's no cheese that can't be stopped.. quit asking for help and just learn to beat it. And I don't think this is overly viable anymore personally but who knows.
1. Doesn't work on tournament maps 2. Doesn't work if Zerg is at all aware of the danger and patrols drone at ramp 3. Doesn't work if Zerg tags scouting probe with a drone when it first comes in (which is common) 4. Doesn't work if Zerg already has another drone somewhere on the map to expand 5. Leaves you extremely vulnerable to proxy hatch in your main 6. Leaves you extremely vulnerable to roach/nydus play 7. Won't allow you to improve your ability to play at all and thus will inflate your rating past where you actually should be, making games impossibly hard for you without cheesing
On February 01 2012 07:42 LOLZEY wrote: hey, thanks for the guide. ive been using this on ladder against every zerg now, works quite well. however, things ive been dying to:
- nydus inside AND outside my base - overlord drops (for close air position zergs)
how you I best stop these? assuming they hit around 7 - 8 minuteish and i expand after i cannon the zerg. thanks!
Don't expand, stay on one base. 1 base Protoss beats 1 base Zerg.
You can totally expand. You already built the forge for an FE. Anytime I do this cheese I still expand because there is no way to break it anyway. Just afterwards always tech to void rays. Once you get 3 and start making Phoenix. Unless he already has like 3 spores at each base (still might not be enough as you never have to engage any of them except normally 1) and multiple queens it's over. And they won't. So it will be over.
On February 07 2012 03:20 UmiNotsuki wrote: This is stupid, just stop.
1. Doesn't work on tournament maps 2. Doesn't work if Zerg is at all aware of the danger and patrols drone at ramp 3. Doesn't work if Zerg tags scouting probe with a drone when it first comes in (which is common) 4. Doesn't work if Zerg already has another drone somewhere on the map to expand 5. Leaves you extremely vulnerable to proxy hatch in your main 6. Leaves you extremely vulnerable to roach/nydus play 7. Won't allow you to improve your ability to play at all and thus will inflate your rating past where you actually should be, making games impossibly hard for you without cheesing
Just stop.
Something tells me you play Zerg
Anyway, I'm a Master Toss, and I'd mostly agree with this. Don't get me wrong, it is a good strat to pull off, but you're leaving yourself pretty damn vulnerable as well, and also, most importantely: regardless of the outcome when you're doing this, you're not exactly learning anything, nor are you improving. Unless you're planning on becoming the next CombatEX, cannon contain is essentially a strat designed for trolling people and causing Zerg tears, which, undeniably is pretty fun, but not for all that long
Another pretty good way of dealing with this, is breaking out with a spine (break the wall) a few lings and a queen while having made constant Drones in the back. you get to saturate your natural instantly, have a healthy surplus of gas (for the tech you want), and even take a relatively quick third.
Dont forget that this has put the protoss WAY behind in tech, expanding, probe production and units lost (at least 600 minerals 3 pylon 1 cannon + he needs at least 1 cannon at his base usually more if you break out)
He can use his flawed production to do one of a few things :
Expand (economy) tech quickly (tech) or followup pressure (army)
On February 06 2012 16:53 zaradron wrote: This is why ladder needs to have the MLG style neutral supply depot, so cheese like this that's almost impossible to stop wont happen
This. I have been cheesed with that build a ton of times, that neutral supply it's needed.
I don't know, its easily preventable with a hold positioned worker. I never do this build and hate that depot because it messes with quite a few protoss sim cities (including low ground walling your own ramp against 6 pool).
I mean I would think a zerg would drop 1 spine on the high ground after laying down a creep tumor and there go at least 3 pylons (and whatever else was the buttress of that wall).
Then a zerg could just 1 base roach and sure you laid down an expansion, but can you really hold if the zerg droned properly beforehand and didn't waste roaches/larva/time trying to take down the wall?
I call bullshit on this one until I have a chance to review a replay.
Perhaps you are winning but it may be by the sheer unorthodox nature of this strategy then by the actual strength of the strategy itself.
On February 07 2012 04:09 weikor wrote: Another pretty good way of dealing with this, is breaking out with a spine (break the wall) a few lings and a queen while having made constant Drones in the back. you get to saturate your natural instantly, have a healthy surplus of gas (for the tech you want), and even take a relatively quick third.
Dont forget that this has put the protoss WAY behind in tech, expanding, probe production and units lost (at least 600 minerals 3 pylon 1 cannon + he needs at least 1 cannon at his base usually more if you break out)
He can use his flawed production to do one of a few things :
Expand (economy) tech quickly (tech) or followup pressure (army)
this isnt as terrifying as it seems to be honest
Yea thats what I do, I generally go for quick infestors after this, because il be so stressed for minerals for a bit, while there are no colossi for a good while, getting them early lets them generate energy and you can use them to deal with any form of follow up from protoss.
Still they should add depots, balance aside, games that play out like this just arnt enjoyable.
This is slowly becoming popular again. A drone on patrol is pretty much a must on the smaller maps where you can just go directly to your opponent (xel'naga, that new arid map). Other than that I don't think it's gamebreaking. A drone scout on 9 or 10 reveals what your opponent is up to/capable of and you should act accordingly. The fact that this gives a 80% winrate in masters is probably people who haven't seen it often enough.
What Zerg player tries hatch first against toss? Isn't it pointless because of pylon blocks, cannons, etc? A 14 pool should bust through, right? And if it doesn't, proxy hatch or hydra nydus should kill him if he goes to 2 base after blocking you?
Well a hatch first build is always possible on larger maps. Since larger maps usually makes the zerg player feel safer. However considering this focuses mainly on maps with a narrow ramp. It's not unheard of for a spine crawler or roach bust since you can just use 3 roaches and break the pylons.
On February 08 2012 02:26 Advocado wrote: This is slowly becoming popular again. A drone on patrol is pretty much a must on the smaller maps where you can just go directly to your opponent (xel'naga, that new arid map). Other than that I don't think it's gamebreaking. A drone scout on 9 or 10 reveals what your opponent is up to/capable of and you should act accordingly. The fact that this gives a 80% winrate in masters is probably people who haven't seen it often enough.
The worst part about this is that I believe it skews the winrate PvZ on the ladder toward Protoss. And because David Kim has said he doesn't watch the GSL and we've seen Blizzard release ladder statistics supporting their balance decisions, this is bad.
On February 07 2012 04:09 weikor wrote: Another pretty good way of dealing with this, is breaking out with a spine (break the wall) a few lings and a queen while having made constant Drones in the back. you get to saturate your natural instantly, have a healthy surplus of gas (for the tech you want), and even take a relatively quick third.
Dont forget that this has put the protoss WAY behind in tech, expanding, probe production and units lost (at least 600 minerals 3 pylon 1 cannon + he needs at least 1 cannon at his base usually more if you break out)
He can use his flawed production to do one of a few things :
Expand (economy) tech quickly (tech) or followup pressure (army)
this isnt as terrifying as it seems to be honest
I do this as well, only I'll tweak it by adding a macro hatch in my main (before I break out) and adding extra queens, all the while I'm doing this I just make a metric fuck tonne of drones. Like you said, once you break out (I'll generally spread creep out to add spines, or use the creep from the macro hatch), your natural is instantly saturated and your production (with the macro hatch) goes through the roof.
Usually I catch the Protoss of guard because they didn't expect me to have so much econ and army after being "stuck" like that.
Of course, there's always the nydus/drop route - and if I nydus, it's almost never in or at their base, usually just outside mine for a flank or contain break. Most Protoss that do this are cautious about the in-base nydus.
Silly strat, though. I find stuff like this so gauche.
On February 08 2012 02:43 DoctorFunk wrote: What Zerg player tries hatch first against toss? Isn't it pointless because of pylon blocks, cannons, etc? A 14 pool should bust through, right? And if it doesn't, proxy hatch or hydra nydus should kill him if he goes to 2 base after blocking you?
That's what I thought as well, as someone tried this. But if you go gassless 14pool, the canon is up before the the lings can kill the wall. Also, P does not have to expand of this. Kiwikaki did a guide in this forum on 3pylon block into 1base blink stalker and though haven't played against it, judging from the guide and its replays, it looks very potent. The worst part of this build is, that if you don't have an overlord at your opponent or a scout out before the block, you will have no clue wether you allin/"macro" against a 1base or 2base toss.
I think the best build to do is 14g/14p in this situation, because then you can just go roach/ling allin, or do some techy one base cheese (nydus or mutas) of it. (there is a guide one 1base mutas vs FFE somewhere in this forum; it's not really a good build imo, but if your opponent does this pylon block, it becomes incredibly powerful, because your opponent will have delayed stalkers/warp gate and 6-7min mutas are quite fast )
On February 08 2012 02:26 Advocado wrote: This is slowly becoming popular again. A drone on patrol is pretty much a must on the smaller maps where you can just go directly to your opponent (xel'naga, that new arid map). Other than that I don't think it's gamebreaking. A drone scout on 9 or 10 reveals what your opponent is up to/capable of and you should act accordingly. The fact that this gives a 80% winrate in masters is probably people who haven't seen it often enough.
The worst part about this is that I believe it skews the winrate PvZ on the ladder toward Protoss. And because David Kim has said he doesn't watch the GSL and we've seen Blizzard release ladder statistics supporting their balance decisions, this is bad.
Still, it is an awesomely powerful strategy.
I think you have misinterpreted something David Kim said, because blizzard always says that they look at every region seperatly and they look at ladder and tournaments when balancing the game. Doesn't mean that I think they should emphasize on ladder balance, yet I think we all can agree that it would be a terrible game if one race would be just way harder/easier than the others.
Also, there are a lot of builds that are way more powerful on the ladder, than in tournament play for every race, due to the skilldifference between pros and amateurs, so it is quite hard to blame ladderwinrates on single builds.
1. Neutral depot blocks wall off on most maps 2. Zerg says lol, and proceeds to nydus bust you. 3. Zerg says lol, builds a spine crawler (150 minerals total, compared to 450+ for wall-in), busts it down and then macrostomps you.
On February 08 2012 06:51 ticklishmusic wrote: Isn't this strategy, I dunno, insanely outdated?
1. Neutral depot blocks wall off on most maps 2. Zerg says lol, and proceeds to nydus bust you. 3. Zerg says lol, builds a spine crawler (150 minerals total, compared to 450+ for wall-in), busts it down and then macrostomps you.
1. not on ladder 2. that's adressed in the OP 3. he needs creep near the ramp, which means he needs to wait for a queen and a creep tumor (or two)
Something similar happened to me recently and I cried. 3 pylon wall into lots of cannons (like 6) into 2 proxy stargate VR's. I killed the 3 pylons with roaches but I wasnt able to actually leave my base because 6 cannons at the bottom of your ramp is ridiculous.
Top masters, have no problems with this - just drone drill and if it doesn't work for the map just keep drone close.
The key is that it delays the core by a year. So the zerg is free to drone up and easily make up the drone drill. And stargates aren't scary because its easily scouted and late core delays stargate
On February 08 2012 09:32 Facultyadjutant wrote: Top masters, have no problems with this - just drone drill and if it doesn't work for the map just keep drone close.
The key is that it delays the core by a year. So the zerg is free to drone up and easily make up the drone drill. And stargates aren't scary because its easily scouted and late core delays stargate
It was on shattered temple when it happened to me, and I didnt know you could drone drill using a far away base (and I havent used camera hotkeys before). I died around 10 or 11 minutes in. It was definitely an all-in move, but really... what is a 1 base zerg going to do to defend against a proxy 2 stargate VR.
I basically did what I shouldve done... got some roaches to break it (break failed), drone hard, get lair to nydus out. I died when my nydus finished. I MIGHT have been OK had I seen the stargates, but odds were against me.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i55.tinypic.com/b483d5.png)
![[image loading]](http://i52.tinypic.com/2mrt8go.png)
![[image loading]](http://i54.tinypic.com/nq3615.png)
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