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On September 15 2011 01:14 mage36 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 01:02 TheSambassador wrote:
I don't really get this. I know there's this idea that you "have to" be on more bases than your opponent as Zerg, but if they've cut probes and wasted 300 minerals + 150 minerals on pylons+cannons, what's so bad about staying on one base for a bit? Yes, you'll be ahead for a while but by the time you execute the nydus worm and punish them, you're already behind because of the expo. Any toss that plays safe and not too greedy will be able to hold off your push at the front. Edit: the general idea for this build (at least for me) is to expand, I think.
So you're going to spend 450 minerals on a contain (IF you only make ONE cannon) and then another 400 on an expansion? How will I not be able to fully saturate 1 base with ~26 drones, tech to Lair, and get way more units than you? All I have to do is Nydus somewhere relatively close to your base. I can overlord scout and see what sort of defenses you've put up. If you've wasted even more on cannons, I'll just nydus another base and expand myself. You're not going to have any units... even if you follow up with a 4 gate, Hydra-ling will absolutely destroy anything you can have at that point.
The ONLY time that I can see the 3 pylon block being useful is when a zerg does hatch first. Then you either force the cancel or outright kill the hatchery. If I hatch 1st vs toss ever, I just patrol the drone.
Against 14/14, this seems silly. I can tech up to Lair tech while you've cut probes and wasted minerals on the contain. If you've expanded, I WILL hit before you have enough units to defend, and if you've placed 3+ cannons at home I'll find another way in or double-expand.
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guys theres a reason every major league disables this strategy. it is quite strong on ladder but honestly quite pointless if you want to try and carry it over to competitions.
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Exploring the world of Cannon-Pressure against Zerg lately. Did this against Hatch first on XNC against Master-Z.
Expanded right away after containing him. Followed his outside drone to make sure he does not grab a sneaky hatch anywhere. Rushed for Stargate -> 3 Voids afterwards like with normal FFE, denied a small Roach-Counter after he break out and his third several times, while transitioning to +2 Blinkstalker and grabing my own third. He went for Hydra/Roach meanwhile and in the end I died to a 2/2 Hydra/Roach Counter after sniping his 3rd after completion. Could have hold that of easy imho, if my transition to colossi would have come faster. Macro slipped while engaging his 3rd 2000/1000 and no colossi as he hit me. gg
Though I dont like this in-your-face-cannon-wall I think sneaky cannons seem very promising, especially on larger maps where Z cant scout every potential spot so easy.
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What you can do as Zerg is get a couple queens, roaches, lair, and nydus near his expansion (if you know he has expanded, that is) put some creep tumors there and destroy his wall with spines Nestea style. Queens will help with air units and if you see there's a lot of them put spores as well. Once the wall has been destroyed just send all your army inside...
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I used to do this, but when a zerg quick techs hydras, it eats all my gateway units because it's all I have when he comes up my ramp.
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Hey, you idiot, whatever your names are that are saying it's unoriginal.
Geuss what. 1/1/1 has been around since beta, yet there are guides that came out recently for them.
Immortal pushes have been out since forever, but there are recent guides that came out for them.
If there wasn't a guide for this. DONT FUCKING COMPLAIN WHEN SOMEONES POSTS ONE.
Please and thank you, dont come again.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 15 2011 01:51 McGuire72 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 00:59 iNkopwnz wrote:On September 15 2011 00:33 McGuire72 wrote:On September 14 2011 20:43 iNkopwnz wrote:On September 14 2011 20:07 Saechiis wrote:
Tester started doing this in beta so it's not something new. It's a dumb cheese that relies on your opponent not being ready to block your probe or not being fast enough with pulling drones and drilling the building pylons.
Don't understand how you can flaunt your 80% winrate when even a silver player could execute this. i dont care who was using it or who invented it, i came up with this by myself, and im not lying about the win rate, its ~80% if not higher. FACT is, most of the high masters/gm's zergs dont know how to react to this, tell me 1 reason why this shouldnt be abused? The only thing you "came up with" was a false sense of accomplishment for yourself lol. People have been doing this forever. You are not special. what? i told ya, i didnt look this up anywhere lmfao, i know there was like a 2pylon block very long time ago or smth like that. And i never see anything like this anywhere nowadays (replays streams ladder etc) so i posted it here and now im getting bashed by the likes of u. LOL Yes, I understand you don't watch or play enough SC2 to understand that this is an old, old tactic that has been in use forever. That said, you still didn't "come up with it" even if you think you did. Ignorance is not actually bliss. Go watch Idra vs MC from a couple MLGs ago. MC pylon blocks Idra on Tal'Darim and Idra insta-ggs (this was the "epic" set where MC came back from down 2-0 to beat Idra in a BO7). Or just watch literally any pro Zerg stream and you'll see them patrolling a drone or chasing the probe with drones to prevent this. The only reason you don't see it on many pro streams is because only dumb Zergs let this happen (aka not the pros).
what i was trying to say is that i came up with this 'on the run', as in i just improvised - it worked - i tried it again - and it worked like a charm. i didnt go and search for some 'pvz cheezes' on the forums rofl
u understand that i dont watch or play enough sc2 ? u dont even know who i am and yet u judge me, wtf is wrong with u?
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What an unoriginal guide! This cheese has been around forever and is by far the most commonplace of all XvZ cheeses.
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strategy is ok and strong obv
all ts hates = wtf are you doing here?
counters with just 1base muta pretty cruel btw
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easy way to beat it.
use a scouting drone, expand with it outsite.
If you really get contained without Drones outsite that is really bad.
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If you're interested, one possible reaction you can have as zerg is:
get double gas, lair, hydra den, roach warren, hydra range and nydus. Make 4 hydras and 1 overseer, then spam roaches and lings.
The timing worked so that, putting down extractor when seeing the wall go up, I could get enough gas for all this, contaminate the core, nydus outside his natural and snipe core before constant chrono wg was done (=win).
Its almost certainly unnecessarily convolute, but it's a fun "technical" allin that works because they delay the core to build all that shit at your ramp.
And if they don't build the core at their front wall, then just nydus somewhere in their base and it'll probably work anyway ^^
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ehm... 1 queen destorys the pylon with your placement, speedlings runby, gg oO
if you reinforce your wall more and more, they can simply nydus out of it - you will be tons behind.
i dont like that crap, just idra will lose to it because of his ragequit abilties.
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On September 15 2011 01:02 TheSambassador wrote:
I don't really get this. I know there's this idea that you "have to" be on more bases than your opponent as Zerg, but if they've cut probes and wasted 300 minerals + 150 minerals on pylons+cannons, what's so bad about staying on one base for a bit?
Yes, obviously the best way to deal with it as Zerg is to prevent it from happening with a patrolling drone. However, if it DOES happen, it seems pretty easy to beat it by:
Plopping down a creep tumor and a spine crawler. Push creep to your ramp while you pump infinity drones. Plop down the spine and watch it get free pylon kills, which your protoss player will probably have to replace at home eventually.
In the meantime, get Lair tech and an evo chamber. You can also grab a roach warren too, but I tend to really like just plain ol' Hydra Ling. If they expanded in the meantime, a Nydus OUTSIDE of their natural just kills them 99% of the time. I like also getting extra queens and push creep from the Nydus as well. You can also use the Nydus to expand to other locations.
You're GOING to be ahead on one base for awhile. Unless he also expands right away and pumps only probes, you are just plain better off. I don't understand why zergs are so afraid of this strat.
What if he pushes into your base after the spine crawler destroys the first pylon? Then you've got no defense and it's gg. Even if you macro and don't try to destroy the pylons a good toss will destroy it on his own and push in.
A good toss will ALWAYS poke up the ramp and see what zerg's cooking.
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This whole cheese thing needs to get out of people heads. Think of 1v1 as a war. You are angry at them and want to win....so you devise a *!*"STRATEGY"*!* to win. Note emphasis on strategy.
1) If you can't deal with it, then instead of complaining on a forum go buy a gameboy with pokemon and sit in a corner and play it instead of starcraft. You will win at that. Or at least I think.
OR
2) Look up how to deal with it and study and understand what you have read. ( Most people don't really do this properly so refer to number 1 if you can't ).
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This happened to me once and I learned to deal with it afterwards. It's actually not hard to block the pylons with drone on hold-position. Even if you do get blocked you have several options.
As some people have said, you can lay down one creep tumour and make one spine crawler. Make an in-base hatchery, 2nd queen, and make nothing but drones and start teching to lair and getting upgrades. Once the wall is down, expand to your natural (or even double expand). The moment your hatch pops you can instantly saturate it and start pumping an army because your upgrades/tech is already done.
You can also do a 1-base drop or nydus on taldarim/metalopolis with speedlings or roaches. With roaches, you have to be good with your timing in order to attack before voidrays are out.
Or you can hide an expansion with your scouting drone.
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I was surprised I thought this thread would be an old thread when I read it. This is why you 13 pool on 1v1 maps. Pull 4 drones to attack the wall until your zerglings are out. Then your zerglings do the rest. If he should decide to keep adding to the wall go double gas immediately and go mutas. Spread your creep to your ramp and kill the wall with a spine crawler while your mutas clean up all his probes or force him to cannon in and get even further behind.
Its really sad that protoss can get into high masters with just this skill level. And its even a cheese that only works on ladder. You can't even do it on tournament maps. So whats the point?
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This is by the way not a cheese. You make no commitments that can be scouted and even if the zerg have mapvision it doesn't mean you fail. And it is only allin from when the 3 pylons have finished.
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while this strategy may not work on most tournament maps that have the depot to prevent pylon blocks
this strategy does work on taldar arim where there is no neutral depot to prevent pylon blocks
in other words, feel free to use this strategy but realize if you ever become competitive it only works on maps without a neutral depot
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On September 15 2011 04:48 GrassEater wrote:
This is by the way not a cheese. You make no commitments that can be scouted and even if the zerg have mapvision it doesn't mean you fail. And it is only allin from when the 3 pylons have finished.
This is a cheese.
Nothing wrong with doing it on ladder, but you've pretty much resigned to the fact that you're never gonna be good in tournaments (since they all disallow these except on TDA), since you're wasting time practicing this.
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EPT
