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On September 15 2011 06:50 Glon wrote:
... this is a shit build. a zerg canceling speed and getting out 6 fast banelings will A. kil your pylons before you put down the gateways and B. leave you with 0 tech and not even able to make nexus
I'm going to second this. If you quickly bane bust it and stream lings to their nat, there's no way they're going to be able to hold.
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This is the most ridiculous strategy I have ever heard, if I were Zerg I would just get a medium-quick lair and mass roaches in your base with lings reinforcing. SUP SON.
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I'm a high Masters Zerg, and to be honest a good majority of shitty protoss players (sorry, my opinion) that try this against me generally end up failing hard with a follow up. There's no point in Nydus, nor mass X unit. The most important thing you have to do, just like in any other situation, is to keep your cool.
Whenever I spot the 3 Pylons, I first judge what to do based on how many cannons there are. I've had a couple greedy Protoss players actually drop only one in which I end up letting my 15 Hatch finish, build a drone and then a Spinecrawler out of range of the cannons. Once the Spinecrawler is finished, throw a few lings at the wall to get the Cannon to focus them rather than the Crawler burrowing nearby. Of course, if you get the uber AMAZING Protoss who decides to wall off with 2-3 cannons, I just simply drop a macro hatch in the main, drone til saturated and tech up. You 100% have to drop a macro hatch in this situation, as you'll be banking more than you can spend off of just one base's worth of larvae. Once the first Queen is finished, drop a creep tumor and inch your way closer to your ramp with a Spinecrawler where eventually you'll create a gap in which your lings/other units can escape and surround the rest of the wall. Occasionally, you can even kill a couple Pylons pending on the map.
Also, I generally don't go for a Nydus but rather standard Tech; I go +1 Melee and get a Hydra Den down just because the majority of Protoss players follow up with either [B]Stalkers or if they're REALLY good, Stargate units. With the Protoss trying to make up for the stupid ammount of minerals he spent at your base, he's set back almost as far if not even more if he decides to expand as he's probing (haaaah, get it?) and dropping a few cannons hoping that you Nydus him. Or, he could try and finish with [B]Stalkers or some sort of 1 base all in in which you'll have the upper hand with tech and a macro hatch dedicated to a larger army rather than more drones.
Sorry for the super long post, I just happened to read what some people's responses were to this and I just figured I'd throw my two-sense in. For a toss new to this, a Nydus might work or expanding at another location might work. But, if someone's taken the time to "think this out" like the OP has, they generally know what the expectations are from the Zerg. It's really not THAT hard to macro out of this situation.. just have to think a little and not overreact.
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People calling this a "strategy" are seriously delusional.
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I have doubts of this achieving an "~80% win rate", along with doubts of this being called a "strategy". I highly recommend any prospective Protoss players to deviate away from this "strategy" at any and all costs. I won't make brash fabricated figures like the OP did about win rates, but I can re-assure you that this will not yield an "~80% win rate" at a respectable skill-level (high Diamond and above).
Edit: + Show Spoiler +On September 15 2011 07:43 Irishladdie wrote:
For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
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this is a strategy because u have a backup plan on what to do next/ what to do if it fails. even 6pool is a strategy unless ur only plan is to build lings and win right there
and yeah, iv wrote this a couple of times already so this is the last time im gonna write this - i did have a ~80% or more win rate with this strat in high masters. i kept detailed logs of all my matchups on excel and it was easy for me to see that with this i won almost every pvz (im not pulling these numbers out of nowhere thats what im saying, believe it or not i dont care)
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On September 15 2011 07:43 Irishladdie wrote:
For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
Doesn't hurt when you're actually catapulting yourself into players of a respectable skill level. My last smurf I DT rushed every PvZ behind a fake 3 gate sentry expand to catch up to my normal MMR. That build is like, a 95% win rate <high masters.
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There's nothing wrong with this play, and there's nothing wrong with 6 pool or proxy 2 rax at 11 supply 2 port banshees, queenless baneling bust julyzerg style, or whatever cheese you want to do.
Just don't expect to become a good player by doing that shit ... but if you just want to get rid of your bonus pool, it's an effective way of doing so.
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cheesy but good = profit 
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It seems like the weakness of this build...as with all forge first builds, is that it would be prone to a proxy hatch in your main. I've had protoss done this to me, and they usually do not hold against a proxy hatch roach rush.
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I dont think this build is any good. What do you do if zerg makes 2nd hatch in main, 2 queens, 1 spine and 0 zergling? I`m pretty certain that you are in playable situation, but It`s quite weird that you didnt describe how you react to this most obvious responce from zerg.
He breaks out using creep + that 1 spine to pick off your blockade. After that you are looking at around 50 drone zerg with 3 hatcheries and perfect+ saturation in 2 base. After that zerg can go in many directions. He definitely can hold your 6gate.
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On September 15 2011 20:04 neoghaleon55 wrote:
It seems like the weakness of this build...as with all forge first builds, is that it would be prone to a proxy hatch in your main. I've had protoss done this to me, and they usually do not hold against a proxy hatch roach rush.
I've faced proxy hatch several times and have been able to hold it off. Of course I am very diligent with my scouting. I know nothing's coming from the front for a while so I scout a lot around my base. I actually prefer it if the zerg does this. This way, I know exactly where his minerals are going. Once I only saw it after it popped up. Put down 2 cannons (the price of a hatch, really) and made some stalkers. Eventually held it off and was working on 2 base while the zerg was working on one. It's very risky but if it's not scouted then you probably win.
Well, I just want to say that the things I am learning here are what to prepare for the next time I play this style. From roach or hydra timing through nydus (which I think is the most viable) to hydra drop from overlord (which I think will be a little too late for the timing. The toss would be ahead already by then.)
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seriously why is this even a guide im sure everyone knows how to cheese a zerg in under 3 minutes by now
and the drone drill is not that good, it doesnt even work on most maps. it's great if they only try to make 3 pylons and 1 cannon though, pretty shitty if they know how to wall or its not on one of the few maps it actually works on.
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I like how people put all this effort into cheeses, because they're "easy" or "fun" way to quickly climb ladder instead of actually trying to get good at their mechanics, unit control, or macro. Maybe I'm biased because zerg doesn't have any good cheeses, I just don't see the point of putting effort into this if you're even remotely serious about SC2 (i.e. most TL users that post in SC2).
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On September 14 2011 18:28 dicex wrote:
Brilliant strategy, thanks for working out the strategic details. Really shows why you are a high masters protoss.
owned^^
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On September 15 2011 18:55 iNkopwnz wrote:
this is a strategy because u have a backup plan on what to do next/ what to do if it fails. even 6pool is a strategy unless ur only plan is to build lings and win right there
and yeah, iv wrote this a couple of times already so this is the last time im gonna write this - i did have a ~80% or more win rate with this strat in high masters. i kept detailed logs of all my matchups on excel and it was easy for me to see that with this i won almost every pvz (im not pulling these numbers out of nowhere thats what im saying, believe it or not i dont care)
Without link to your SC2profile, you are pulling those stats out of your ass. Ican say i have 90% winrate with 15 hatch against Terran in high master, does it make my strat?
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Does this work on tal darim?
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On September 15 2011 22:01 E.H Eager wrote:
Does this work on tal darim?
Yes, MC did it to Idra who insta-gg'ed at MLG Columbus.
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You are an Idiot because you suggest to your Protoss brethren to cheese most of the time "because their struggling against Zerg". And then you go and lay out a 12 month old cheese as your simple build to steal wins.
This kind of mentality is holding you back from improving and is making you struggle against Zerg.
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EPT
