On September 15 2011 15:43 gulati wrote: I have doubts of this achieving an "~80% win rate", along with doubts of this being called a "strategy". I highly recommend any prospective Protoss players to deviate away from this "strategy" at any and all costs. I won't make brash fabricated figures like the OP did about win rates, but I can re-assure you that this will not yield an "~80% win rate" at a respectable skill-level (high Diamond and above).
On September 15 2011 07:43 Irishladdie wrote: For everybody that loves doing this build, what EXACTLY is the point of doing it if you don't learn anything about the game, neither your macro nor micro skills are increased, and you're catapulted into leagues with players better than you while having little to no fun?
I'm rank 1 gold and owned a platinum zerg doing this after you posted this here. I'm fairly new so I didn't know about this.
My follow up was TERRIBLE, frankly I was astonished at how much it threw off my opponent and how much they were freaking out.
I simply starting playing my standard (2 base 6 gate +1 stalker baby haha) and patrolling for any close nydus.
When he finally broke through, by spreading creep and moving 2 spine crawlers, and a handful of roaches, he double expanded right when he got out and I just rolled him.
Definitely he lost because he didn't keep his cool. Just posting this because I am gold and he was plat and someone above me said this doesn't work in gold (even though the OP is high masters.....).
Until a one or two months ago i have done this occasionally cause it just leads to games that are different than normal pvzs and from time to time I wanna have such games, but i have stopped to do it cause pretty much every zerg counter that was mentioned in this thread has beatn me. TT building so many pylons and canons just put you in a rather bad spot,
I am diamond with random and low masters with protoss
zerg gets a drone out early and makes a ninja expand instead of scouting because he sees your cheese, which is safe because your warpgates and gateways are delayed. He doesn't inject with queen and spreads creep to the ramp, he starts to spine your pylons.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
On September 15 2011 22:45 fighter2_40 wrote: zerg gets a drone out early and makes a ninja expand instead of scouting because he sees your cheese, which is safe because your warpgates and gateways are delayed. He doesn't inject with queen and spreads creep to the ramp, he starts to spine your pylons.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
Pylon health is 200/200, and 1 armor, so 90 drone shots to kill the pylon. Drone attacks every 1.5 game seconds, and pylon takes 25 game seconds to build. So a drone gets max of about 16~17 shots off on pylon before it completes. Definitely not enough time to kill it normally.
With drone drilling, if you are able to do it perfectly, the minimum drones you need to pull is 6 to kill the pylon before it finishes. If you're a human, you need to account for time to pull drones, and time it takes to perform the drone drill, so probably need to pull 8-12 drones to be able to reliably kill the pylons before it finishes.
If you bring 12 drones and only 10 drones get the shot off, it should take 13.5 game seconds to kill the pylon, plenty of time for you to react and set up the drone drill.
It's perfectly reasonable to believe that a smart zerg can stop it in time when drone drilling correctly.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
You're supposed to kill the pylons before they finish, because you have an overlord watching at your ramp.
again, iv played enough games with this pylon opening, and not a single zerg killed the pylons while they r morphing
... there is some truth in what you are saying, I just checked, there are few variables to consider, 1. where the probe start building the wall off from. [a good zerg will respond the moment that the Protoss lay out his first pylon, and while using the drill technique there's only 1 or 2 pylons that you can attack, if the probe starts building from the wrong direction it will be easier to stop the wall off] 2. the people you were playing against never practiced the drill before, it's not such a complicated thing to do but it takes like 3 times to get used to the movement and considering you need to target different crystal for each map.. yeah using the drill technique takes some practice to be mastered perfectly. 3. Zerg's drone count... for obvious reasons, when I tested this I had 15 drones, which I think I'll have normally... maybe 14...
The results of my test: If I have practiced the drill before, and you started to build your wall from the wrong direction, I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP YOU! If I have practiced and you started building from the correct direction, you will have about 1-2 seconds to build 2 buildings to rewall me in or I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP IT... anyway if I didn't practice the drill before I wont be able to stop the wall in, and that is why the Zerg you fought against couldn't stop it in time.
And lastly, If you don't believe me you can PM me and I'll send you a triggered Xel'Naga Caverns map where you start with 15 drones and after 4-5 seconds a probe will start building pylons at your ramp from the correct direction.
Looking at the replay I don't see the 80%w/r. The zerg handeled it ok and sure as behind and thorwn of but he sure had a fighting chance so sure it si a cheesy opening but sure isn't game ending by any means. you yourself isn't that far ahead after the block to justify the risk in my opionion.
Also the point with the replay is more to see the state of the game, not how you did it. I could say "3 drone harass early against protoss is great just pull 3 drones at 14 food and run to protoss bas" and it would explain it. But it would not justify what the strategy. My example is stupid I know but for something that tries to be a guide, a replay is really the least you can do.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
You're supposed to kill the pylons before they finish, because you have an overlord watching at your ramp.
again, iv played enough games with this pylon opening, and not a single zerg killed the pylons while they r morphing
... there is some truth in what you are saying, I just checked, there are few variables to consider, 1. where the probe start building the wall off from. [a good zerg will respond the moment that the Protoss lay out his first pylon, and while using the drill technique there's only 1 or 2 pylons that you can attack, if the probe starts building from the wrong direction it will be easier to stop the wall off] 2. the people you were playing against never practiced the drill before, it's not such a complicated thing to do but it takes like 3 times to get used to the movement and considering you need to target different crystal for each map.. yeah using the drill technique takes some practice to be mastered perfectly. 3. Zerg's drone count... for obvious reasons, when I tested this I had 15 drones, which I think I'll have normally... maybe 14...
The results of my test: If I have practiced the drill before, and you started to build your wall from the wrong direction, I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP YOU! If I have practiced and you started building from the correct direction, you will have about 1-2 seconds to build 2 buildings to rewall me in or I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP IT... anyway if I didn't practice the drill before I wont be able to stop the wall in, and that is why the Zerg you fought against couldn't stop it in time.
And lastly, If you don't believe me you can PM me and I'll send you a triggered Xel'Naga Caverns map where you start with 15 drones and after 4-5 seconds a probe will start building pylons at your ramp from the correct direction.
can you pls upload the custom map? i would LOVE to practive the drill
On September 15 2011 22:45 fighter2_40 wrote: zerg gets a drone out early and makes a ninja expand instead of scouting because he sees your cheese, which is safe because your warpgates and gateways are delayed. He doesn't inject with queen and spreads creep to the ramp, he starts to spine your pylons.
what do?
I think the OP explained scouting.
Zerg does not need to ninja drone out. Just make hatch in main and drone up like crazy while slowly killing pylons and cannon with high ground spine.
Basicly protoss is trading 450 minerals for 150 minerals + 1 larva and lets zerg drone up with absolutely no attacking units untill he has perfect saturations to transfer once he makes third hatch at natural.
I guess you may have plan against this and i questioned it before what is his plan. After all this is the most obvious responce from competent zerg. He had plans against all cheese zerg may try but how about if zerg plays standard?
I still fail to see the point of this entire post:
This build is nothing new, it's been around forever. The only thing that's new in 12 months is building three pylons instead of two and then building gateways behind; neither of which are particularly new.
This build doesn't even work in a tournament so it doesn't even make sense to learn this cheese to use in a BoX series.
Because it's such an easy build to accomplish, it doesn't improve your mechanics whatsoever.
Despite coming across as a "Help thread to P's who struggle vs Z," your build will not really make a person better at PvZ.
This build is not fun to do or play against, and if you're taking out the fun aspect of a game AND you're not getting better at the game, then there really is no point in doing it.
If your only motivation behind doing this build is so that you can infuriate others and get to be higher ranked, then you might as well just become a drop-hacker; you'll get wins easier and make people even angrier.
Overall, I just fail to see a point to your thread, and since you didn't respond to my last post (which I'm assuming was because it was very long), I've decided to condense those thoughts here in what you could call a TL;DR. So I actually want to hear what you think the point of this entire post is.
EPT
