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On September 16 2011 03:12 The Final Boss wrote:I still fail to see the point of this entire post: - This build is nothing new, it's been around forever. The only thing that's new in 12 months is building three pylons instead of two and then building gateways behind; neither of which are particularly new.
- This build doesn't even work in a tournament so it doesn't even make sense to learn this cheese to use in a BoX series.
- Because it's such an easy build to accomplish, it doesn't improve your mechanics whatsoever.
- Despite coming across as a "Help thread to P's who struggle vs Z," your build will not really make a person better at PvZ.
- This build is not fun to do or play against, and if you're taking out the fun aspect of a game AND you're not getting better at the game, then there really is no point in doing it.
- If your only motivation behind doing this build is so that you can infuriate others and get to be higher ranked, then you might as well just become a drop-hacker; you'll get wins easier and make people even angrier.
Overall, I just fail to see a point to your thread, and since you didn't respond to my last post (which I'm assuming was because it was very long), I've decided to condense those thoughts here in what you could call a TL;DR. So I actually want to hear what you think the point of this entire post is.
I disagree with you and here's why...
- The point of this build is that is does work on the ladder maps, so why not use it to gain an advantage? I've seen a few high ranked Korean Protoss favor this cheese over a standard cannon rush because of how effective it is for the cost of only 1 cannon and 3 pylons. It is a very effective cheese for the ladder.
- Name a cheese that isn't easy to accomplish? Most require very little skill because they're at the early stages of the game where there is little macro and focus can be on micro.
- If you understand the concepts of why this build is effective, it will make you better at PvZ.
- This build is incredibly fun to do and many PvZs I've had on the ladder as a result of using this cheese turn out to be incredibly silly, fun games. I personally enjoy FEing behind this cheese and 1-base Nydus roach/ling all-ins can be incredibly challenging to hold off if the Zerg employs his Nydus canal well. It teaches both the Zerg and myself very crucial crisis management tactics for situations that you don't often encounter in normal games but are, nonetheless, very useful skills to have.
- Comparing cheese to drop hacking? That's a slippery slope fallacy, my good sir.
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^ Dude this does not lead to fun games at all. Maybe it's a challenge for you to play Spot-The-Nydus! but for Zerg it's an autoloss if you just get those pylons up.
Why do you do this if he's going hatch before pool? Zerg is just as fucked if he's going pool first if you do this.
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If this happens to me and I fail to block it in time I will usually go proxy hatch (either in their base if they have a place without pylons and I'm feeling risky) or outside the natural and try and a roach bust, usually works
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As BadBadMan said proxy hatch easy beat this.
I always go 15 pool and scout with 13th drone.
If he puts down this wall i put a hatchery in his main and go gas and roach warren.
Most Protoss dont scout the proxy hatch in there main cause they are busy with the wall and feel save from any attack.
Anyway even if he scouts the hatch he cant do much about it cause he doenst have a gate and if he starts building one the zealot finish same time as the hatchery.
If he builds cannons around the hatchery u will be able to build 3-5 roach and a queen. u dont need to engage the cannons, just run away from them and start killing his eco.
Since u have a roach warren anyway u can also build 2 roaches in ur main and start killing the pylon wall.
I have never lost to the pylon block yet when i played proxy hatch.
I Play zerg master 1000point
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^ That sounds incredibly luck based. I've never faced a Protoss so stupid to let a proxy hatch get up or doesn't react easily to it.
Because I know in Masters, much less Diamond, a Protoss isn't going to let you proxy a hatch, and (like the guide said) they will search for your hidden base, they will find it, and they will put cannons next to it without you being able to see it. If you try to throw a hatch in their face, unless they don't know how to deal with it, they'll just easily put a pylon next to it and when it's 50% done, they'll put 2 cannons next to it and cancel if you cancel.
So anyways, why would you do this against hatch first but not pool first? Zerglings don't pop in time and Zerg is just as fucked if they are walled in by going pool first instead of hatch first.
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On September 16 2011 07:40 Belial88 wrote:
^ That sounds incredibly luck based. I've never faced a Protoss so stupid to let a proxy hatch get up or doesn't react easily to it.
Because I know in Masters, much less Diamond, a Protoss isn't going to let you proxy a hatch, and (like the guide said) they will search for your hidden base, they will find it, and they will put cannons next to it without you being able to see it. If you try to throw a hatch in their face, unless they don't know how to deal with it, they'll just easily put a pylon next to it and when it's 50% done, they'll put 2 cannons next to it and cancel if you cancel.
So anyways, why would you do this against hatch first but not pool first? Zerglings don't pop in time and Zerg is just as fucked if they are walled in by going pool first instead of hatch first.
I don't do this strat against pool first builds neither because what I'm trying to avoid is the zerg getting to drone up really quickly when he goes hatch first he could even get a quick 3rd if this were the case. With builds like 14 pool or the like, you already know that building a forge early is justified. Also, if the zerg goes hatch first and you scout him before you place your forge, you can go nexus before forge because you're totally safe and doesn't really put you behind. It's all about managing what you have and reacting to what your opponent does.
On September 16 2011 07:36 Mrs.Mirage wrote:
As BadBadMan said proxy hatch easy beat this.
I always go 15 pool and scout with 13th drone.
If he puts down this wall i put a hatchery in his main and go gas and roach warren.
Most Protoss dont scout the proxy hatch in there main cause they are busy with the wall and feel save from any attack.
Anyway even if he scouts the hatch he cant do much about it cause he doenst have a gate and if he starts building one the zealot finish same time as the hatchery.
If he builds cannons around the hatchery u will be able to build 3-5 roach and a queen. u dont need to engage the cannons, just run away from them and start killing his eco.
Since u have a roach warren anyway u can also build 2 roaches in ur main and start killing the pylon wall.
I have never lost to the pylon block yet when i played proxy hatch.
I Play zerg master 1000point
This does presuppose that the toss is busy with his proxy wall. Some prefer to just leave the wall there because the damage has been done. While he spent 450 minerals, the zerg wasn't able to expo. That's a pretty big deal. I am pretty sure that a cannon or two can be up on time to kill the hatch when scouted properly (if you are assuming the all tosses won't scout this in time, I think it's only fair I do assume that a toss will scout this in time.) And I have said this before. There is really no reason not to play safe when you are in such a huge economic advantage. Put down several pylons around the dark areas of the base even though you don't need them yet. place more cannons out front for the eventual timing attack because of the lack of an expo. Toss has 2 base (assuming he expands behind the wall. really, he has no reason not to against a hatch-first zerg because you know the pool and everything else will be later than a pool first build plus he either needs a drone to have been outside to do the proxy hatch or have to have nydus tech. If the proxy hatch is scouted (it takes forever to build a hatch, not to mention it only comes with one larva to begin with), you're pretty much wasted more minerals either 350 for hatch+drone or 150 for cancel + drone.
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On September 16 2011 04:27 Dbla08 wrote:Show nested quote +Wouldn't any buildings give support for a cannon drill? Like, a corner where you can bunch your drones and drill from there? right, but by having all of your drones off mining for that long, just to have the building canceled, puts you far enough behind its gg anyways
I strongly disagree. 3 wasted pylons, a forge and a cannon with supporting gateways, cancelled or not, is easily worth more than the mining time missed.
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I don't do this strat against pool first builds neither because what I'm trying to avoid is the zerg getting to drone up really quickly when he goes hatch first he could even get a quick 3rd if this were the case. With builds like 14 pool or the like, you already know that building a forge early is justified. Also, if the zerg goes hatch first and you scout him before you place your forge, you can go nexus before forge because you're totally safe and doesn't really put you behind. It's all about managing what you have and reacting to what your opponent does.
Okay, I get what you're saying. I get you want to prevent Zerg from droning up, and what you're doing isn't wrong.
But that still doesn't answer my question. Why do you choose not to totally cheese out the Zerg and get a free win if he went pool first? It doesn't matter what opening Zerg does, if you get those 3 pylons up there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to win from that point. Zerglings come out too late to deal with the pylon wall.
I almost feel like your trying to say it's some sort of strategic move or something. It's not, it's an abusive move that just autowins. I'm not trying to vent here, but there's no strategy to it. It doesn't matter what build Zerg does, if you catch a Zerg out of position with his ramp-block drone, you autowin. There's nothing Zerg can do about it, there's no build order that is safer against it, you just lose.
Personally I go 14 pool and about 16 hatch against Protoss, because if Protoss didn't FFE I like to get speed quickly for scouting, dealing with proxy 2 gates, and 4 gates or dealing with any 1 base play as well as put pressure back. The only reason I don't hatch first in PvZ is not because of cannon rushes or wall-offs, it's because I'm not sure they are going FFE. If I knew 100% they were going FFE, I would hatch first every time, because zerglings won't be out in time for cannon rushes and someone doing a BOSS cannon rush or a wall in or a simple proxy cannon will always win against no matter what Zerg opens with, they just have to have drones on hold position and another following the probe and denying him from going behind the mineral line.
I strongly disagree. 3 wasted pylons, a forge and a cannon with supporting gateways, cancelled or not, is easily worth more than the mining time missed.
The problem with the drone drill is that it's highly map and spawn dependent. There are many maps and spawn points that you simply can't do it on effectively, like any spawn on Typhon peaks. But you're right, to do a drone drill effectively you need to pull at least 15 drones. Protoss will have a much higher income even if he throws all that stuff down with his mineral line mining away at full strength the entire time.
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As a Zerg player .... i can literally say F%#^& I hate when Protoss do this..
Screw you OP Screw you..
Any Protoss who resort to this are just ......>
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As a zerg who suffered enough from P's cheese i actually blame Blizzard for this. The sad part of this is that Blizz guys are perfectly fine with this sh%t happening. They actually shown us that they just don't care about player's feedback, since there's almost not a single purely Blizz-made map used in any major tournament and still... they make more retarded maps!
But i think that what hurt's zerg's ego more than anything is the fact that there's absolutely not a single build(all in) that is guaranteed to do decent damage if not finish the game right away. And don't you F dare to name 6pool since the only mu where it actually take any effort at all to stop is ZvZ. If we do compare this to P's or T's actual state it is just frustrating. Brave and better players(mostly p and T lol) could say i just chose wrong race. But its not the case. Its just this "balance" infamous discussion should also go for balance between execution/counter difficulty issue. Why? Because in TvP all ins can be stopped with much more ease, while zerg have to sweat blood to actually stop an all in and THEN try to not die to after-all-in-cheese. Its just retarded the way early game works for zerg right now.
So my point is: there's always will be guys ready to take a free win, and blizz will allow it being in ladder. So my zergie friends... we'r f&cked : /
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This wins because people are not prepared for it, and nothing more than that at all. This is not a good build, it just gets lucky cause Ladder is very volatile
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Dear OP,
I would appreciate it if you capitalized your words at the beginnings of sentences and didn't use shorthand notations. It's difficult to read your posts and to understand what you want to say.
What does OP think is the best counter to this? You mention an 80% winrate.
Also, feel free to read the Forum guidelines. It's stickied, so you can find it.
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On September 16 2011 12:22 PenguinWithNuke wrote:
Dear OP,
I would appreciate it if you capitalized your words at the beginnings of sentences and didn't use shorthand notations. It's difficult to read your posts and to understand what you want to say.
What does OP think is the best counter to this? You mention an 80% winrate.
Also, feel free to read the Forum guidelines. It's stickied, so you can find it.
I saw some good zergs here posting on how to counter this, so u could look that up, as for capitalizing each word at the begining of the sentence...is it really such a big deal to u? wow
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^ I don't think any good zergs said how to counter it, just lower level zergs saying to proxy hatch and hope protoss doesn't know how to make/cancel 2 cannons or spot for nydus.
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I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
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I have mentioned 2 times competent zerg standard responce to this and OP has absolutely no plan against that so i`m starting to think that he is just trolling.
It can be good if you know excatly how to capitalize on the fact that zerg natural hatchery will be later. But without good plan you will fall far behind in economy.
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I saw a lot of Zergs go Roaches right after they scout the cannons and bust it. Then they drone while double expanding and using the Roaches to force a lot of cannons.
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On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote:
I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
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On September 16 2011 17:17 Arir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote:
I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in. 1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
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On September 14 2011 20:03 StatX wrote:
you can undo this with with a single creep tumor and a spine or 2 since they can hit from high ground.
That takes soooo long...protoss is miles ahead...
I've been encountering a lot of this on ladder (diamond).
I actually don't have a clue how can Zerg not be behind after a forge opening...whatever kind. Doesn't matter if its a nexus 1st, fore>fe, forge>canon>fe, walling of your base, cannoning your natural, whatever he does i don't know how can zerg stay on pair with Toss...i am open for any tips...?
Preventing this from happening is the only way i can stay ahead, and sometimes even that won't help.
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EPT
