On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
You can either take a fast third or tech really hard (to the guy asking what to do against FFE).
I've seen a few pros do this as well, but they'll get about 12-16 lings early on to work on the rocks. I think this is horrible. You're pretty much forced to take a very far off expo, just use 3 spores or 1 spine if it's air or gateway (if they block the third they should block the natural for FFE ;/ )You can also go.... ling/infestor to hold off gateway timings, and then double expand once you hold off the pressure.
But yea, the 3 pylon wall off is an instant win. Protoss just gets a stargate, holds off possible mass 1 base roach, and then wins.
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
You can have 100 workers, you'll still be the same economy as someone with 24 workers. You can only saturate up to 3 workers per node, afterwords your actually very insignificantly hurting your economy. Long distance mining is hardly a way to get an economic edge. Also with the dynamics of 1 base larva inject vs 2 nexus chrono, Protoss will be way ahead of you in economy, especially being on 2 bases.
You're suggestion sounds kind of ridiculous. I don't know what level you play at, but Protoss on 2 base is miles ahead of a Zerg on 1 base (remember Zerg's supposed to have 1 extra base?).
It makes no sense that somehow you lose in ZvP when protoss doesn't do this and you have 2 bases mining, yet you claim to always win when your stuck on 1 base vs 2 base protoss...
Best way for Protoss to follow up is add a single stargate to hold a possible 1 base roach all-in, and make sentries.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
When I was using spine to kill pylons I always was very behind. Do you understand that toss can build probes from 2 nexus while you are producing drones only from 1 hatch? I have no idea how can you be not behind. Show me replay were you are ahead after doing this.. Not to mention you gonna die vs. 6 gate for sure.
spine isn't always effective, as their are maps with long distances from main to ramp. also better players will cancel/kill the third pylon and rally in zealots to gain vision/harass, which then denies spines and also owns zerglings/larvae
There are really still Zerg out there that don't patrol a drone at the bottom of the ramp on any map that allows for this strategy?
It's so easy to counter: Just don't let the pylons get up.
Build hatch, send drone to patrol, as soon as he tries to get rid of that drone by attacking it, pull 2 more drones and deny it. Done.
Yes, a patrolling drone loses a little mining time, but if he intends on doing such a strategy, he will sacrifice a lot more eco and if he doesn't... well, as soon as your natural gets up, you'll jump ahead anyways and the single drone won't matter that much anyways, it gives you so much safety that you can make up for it later (a pair of lings should be out very soon anyways).
The best strategy against any cheese is to just not let it happen in the first place.
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
1. yeh I do deserve a ban for not reading the op, but with such a stupid title and seeing the pictures, how can I take this sort of thing seriously? 2. If the Zerg is not stupid he has a really good chance of killing the pylons before they finish building.
EDIT: I read the op, my point still stands, what's your problem?
ee herp derp kill pylons before finishing? nice one, im pretty sure some good zergs here agreed with me that this drill thingy is a waste
this deserves a ban for not reading the op, it specifically states what he does when people are doing this overhyped crap
You're supposed to kill the pylons before they finish, because you have an overlord watching at your ramp.
again, iv played enough games with this pylon opening, and not a single zerg killed the pylons while they r morphing
... there is some truth in what you are saying, I just checked, there are few variables to consider, 1. where the probe start building the wall off from. [a good zerg will respond the moment that the Protoss lay out his first pylon, and while using the drill technique there's only 1 or 2 pylons that you can attack, if the probe starts building from the wrong direction it will be easier to stop the wall off] 2. the people you were playing against never practiced the drill before, it's not such a complicated thing to do but it takes like 3 times to get used to the movement and considering you need to target different crystal for each map.. yeah using the drill technique takes some practice to be mastered perfectly. 3. Zerg's drone count... for obvious reasons, when I tested this I had 15 drones, which I think I'll have normally... maybe 14...
The results of my test: If I have practiced the drill before, and you started to build your wall from the wrong direction, I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP YOU! If I have practiced and you started building from the correct direction, you will have about 1-2 seconds to build 2 buildings to rewall me in or I WILL BE ABLE TO STOP IT... anyway if I didn't practice the drill before I wont be able to stop the wall in, and that is why the Zerg you fought against couldn't stop it in time.
And lastly, If you don't believe me you can PM me and I'll send you a triggered Xel'Naga Caverns map where you start with 15 drones and after 4-5 seconds a probe will start building pylons at your ramp from the correct direction.
can you pls upload the custom map? i would LOVE to practive the drill
http://sc2.nibbits.com/maps/view/136607/xelnaga-drill-pylon-block just send your overlord to your ramp and start mining, the moment you see the pylons being placed down take all your drones and start drilling, I managed to kill the bottom pylon 1 sec after it finished building.
On September 16 2011 16:28 Alpina wrote: I would just keep producing drones and build a baneling nest and bust all 3 pylons with 5(?) banelings. Then expand and put fear on protoss opponent about possible all-in.
1 spine is even cheaper than banenest + lings + banes. You need 0 zergling/roach/bane to break out. Just make a macro hatch in main to keep up with larva and third at natural.
Problem with spine is that it will take forever to get creep up to ramp and kill 3 pylons with spine. When you finally break contain with spine his 2 base will be already saturated lol. Baneling bust is much faster..
No you are wrong. Protoss will have around 30 probes and you have many more. Once you break out you will have to start long distance mining while expanding. But nevertheless your eco is in better shape than your opponent.
Banebusting contain maybe gets u faster 2 base but using 1 spine gets you faster 2 fully saturated base.
My first 25 queen energy goes on creep tumor and i build extra hatch when i`m on 300 and 2nd queen asap. I hardly ever lose to this build and i wonder why some tosses still do it.
This has been my responce all the way from beta when ramps could be blocked with just 2 pylons and more popular follow ups were 4gate from 1 base or 5-6 gate from 2.
When I was using spine to kill pylons I always was very behind. Do you understand that toss can build probes from 2 nexus while you are producing drones only from 1 hatch? I have no idea how can you be not behind. Show me replay were you are ahead after doing this.. Not to mention you gonna die vs. 6 gate for sure.
I can see that your problem was that you were on 1 hatch.
I`m producing drones from 2 hatch fully injected - 1 inject that went on quick tumor. That is definitely more drones than 2 Chronoboosted Nexus can produce drones.
I start long distance mining when i break out which does not take eternity. 1-2 cycles from tumor and spine can start picking pylons.
Protoss may have economic advantage for a brief moment but my 1 base is saturated before protoss main is or natural in function + my 2 base are fully saturated before protoss has his 2 base saturated + I have workable tech with 2 gas that i take from main just to find drones something to do while getting 2nd base up with third hatchery.
I really dont know how u see this a problematic compared to banebusting protoss wall with 5-6 banes + some lings to tank initial shots. I think u will be most certainly be behind in worker count AND you have your base later. Your advantage is banetech which makes protoss to turtle slightly harder. Personally i would take worker and eco advantage over slight pressure but that is just me.
EDIT: Anyway my original point was that it`s pretty weird that OP didnt stress at all about spine breaking the contain which is fairly common. Not saying that it counters this or anything but not having ANY plan vs drone massing zerg can be pretty dangerous.
Which makes me wonder the legitness of the whole post. Has he really done it enough times to reach 80%? That takes at least 5 games and not a single spine busts..?! Just suspicious.
EDIT2: Belial88 post was so cute that i dont want to bash it :3 But i`m currently playing Master EU, third on Mutalisk Juliet with 1150 points. Rarely play vs GM players on ladder but i do and when i do i usually lose. So not highest EU master but i would still consider myself highish.
could easily be avoided if blizzard implemented some more tournament maps (or just added the depo at the bottom of the ramp). alot of troubles could be avoided that way
ok lol....... spinecrawlers solve that problem easily and roach rush will crush that off one base, and depending on tech can just burrow and kill you.... its easy when u do creep spread first > inject.
It's not as strong as people think, committing that much money to the 3 pylons and cannon will mean a later nexus and later cybernetics core, later warp gates, etc, while zerg is not behind at all and can bust out pretty easily as if he was just doing a one base play. If the protoss really does make A LOT of cannons then you know he has no army and can go for nydus play.
On September 16 2011 21:59 Xyik wrote: It's not as strong as people think, committing that much money to the 3 pylons and cannon will mean a later nexus and later cybernetics core, later warp gates, etc, while zerg is not behind at all and can bust out pretty easily as if he was just doing a one base play. If the protoss really does make A LOT of cannons then you know he has no army and can go for nydus play.
Actually. It is quite strong. Yes, he gets a later nexus, etc. But the zerg also gets later hatch. way later. And really, what are the zerg's options off one base? Can't produce lair tech constantly. So your options are very limited. Lings, banes and roach.
If you get lair tech, you can get a couple of hydras but the problem with that is if you choose to destroy the wall, he has ample time to prepare accordingly. If you choose to nydus, that is more money spent but that might be your best bet against a heavily macro-ing and tech-ing toss. Though, I must warn the zerg player that any toss that does this regularly will know that he should just play safe against any shenanigans by the zerg. What's the point on rushing to a very high tech or several techs when the zerg can't afford to rush to a high tech, too? Getting one stargate is not uncommon, and will in no way affect having ground units. Personally, I just use it to annoy the hell out of the zerg player some more and of course scout what he has, which is the most important reason to get the stargate so early. Besides, the protoss already has the tech to defend. It's not warpgate and it most definitely is not stargate. All he needs are (1) probes to prevent any nydus from going up in the main and (2) forge to make several cannons at the front. (No need to add a whole bunch all at once). Just spend a couple of 150 minerals every once in a while after your saturation is already more than one base because you know that while you are spending the 150 occasionally, the zerg still won't be able to match the amount you're getting, being on one base.
On September 16 2011 21:28 L3g3nd_ wrote: what if the zerg is smart and simply doesnt let you get the pylons up?
Then, good sir, we have a regular game.
On September 16 2011 21:09 CruelGame wrote: ok lol....... spinecrawlers solve that problem easily and roach rush will crush that off one base, and depending on tech can just burrow and kill you.... its easy when u do creep spread first > inject.
May I point out, kind sir, that roaches with burrow and burrow movement off one base, no less, will no longer be a roach rush and breaking through their wall with roaches will trigger the protoss to prepare defenses accordingly with a combination of cannons, stalkers and void rays. Furthermore, burrowing will do nothing because of said cannon tech.
On September 16 2011 19:05 RoastedDrone wrote: But if the zerg uses the drone drill and you build gates for support, aren't you wasting more money on a non-game ending tactic?
I think the OP's idea is to make your drone drill useless. While he spent some minerals warping in gateways that he will cancel, the zerg lost mining time. What are the exact amounts of losses? Well, for toss, it's easy. 50 minerals per gateway canceled, if i'm not mistaken. But the zerg's lost minerals due to loss of mining time is a bit harder to calculate but I'd say that at most the toss will be just slightly behind. And for the price of the zerg not being able to take his 2nd base? That is well worth it, IMO.
On September 16 2011 10:47 Belial88 wrote: But that still doesn't answer my question. Why do you choose not to totally cheese out the Zerg and get a free win if he went pool first? It doesn't matter what opening Zerg does, if you get those 3 pylons up there is absolutely nothing Zerg can do to win from that point. Zerglings come out too late to deal with the pylon wall.
Well, I guess for the OP, he said he doesn't like to do it every game because things like his game sense will degrade because you don't play a normal game anymore. Also, I don't think this can be done for pools before 14. And pools before 14, I'd rather just get an economic advantage by getting my nexus up earlier and defending their 1 base push. 6 cannons with a few ground units will be able to hold off a lot. No need to hold back on cannons when you scout early roaches incoming or that he doesn't have a hatch at the natural. You're ahead so just prevent him from catching up by getting your natural destroyed. By the time he puts down his natural, you've already mined a significant amount of time at your own and he spent a lot on army units instead of focusing on econ.
Edit: Just a suggestion but I think this guide would be better if the OP can put all the zerg responses that he has faced and that have been mentioned in this thread as well as how to properly respond to these because as of now, I think a lot of people are saying that this is a bad thread because he only placed one zerg response when in actuality there are so many. I, myself have faced a ton of different builds whether I go for a normal FFE or the one blocking off the opponent's ramp. That is why I always say that FFE is a very reactionary build and not set in stone by very specific build orders.
Here are a few that have been mentioned: (1) creep tumor and attack wall off with spine crawler (2) baneling break the wall (3) nydus worm in protoss main (4.1) 2 hatch nydus worm outside protoss natural with queens and roaches (4.2) 2 hatch nydus worm outside protoss natural with hydras and lings (5) one base mutas (6) roach break wall (7) proxy hatch in-base (8) proxy hatch outside (not for mining but for roach attack) (9) overlord drop (I don't know about this but it sounds silly off one base for zerg but it was mentioned so...) (10) roach break and attack with burrow and burrow movement
And these are all just the different responses from the FFE with walling off the opponent's ramp.
The thing is roach / ling / baneling is very cost-effective against all gateway units as well as for sniping cannons, if the zerg plays smart and hits good timings most protoss won't be able to deal with it. Banelings are not cost effective for breaking this wall (and a good zerg player won't waste the resources trying it, the best way to deal with a contain is to kill the contain without losing any units aka vs safe roach / spine sniping up on cliffs or by avoiding the cannons all together with nydus). The point is toss will need A LOT of cannons if he wants to delay the zerg expo significantly (which means fewer cannons at home) or sacrifice the contain for safer play at home. Either way there is a weakness the zerg can take advantage of, its hard to say that this build puts protoss significantly ahead if the zerg uses his head instead of giving up because the protoss has an earlier expo. The later zerg hatch sacrifices late game strength for early game strength that zerg has to take advantage of, force the protoss to build many cannons at his expo and pull probes to defend.
On September 16 2011 23:32 Xyik wrote: The thing is roach / ling / baneling is very cost-effective against all gateway units as well as for sniping cannons, if the zerg plays smart and hits good timings most protoss won't be able to deal with it. Banelings are not cost effective for breaking this wall (and a good zerg player won't waste the resources trying it, the best way to deal with a contain is to kill the contain without losing any units aka vs safe roach / spine sniping up on cliffs or by avoiding the cannons all together with nydus). The point is toss will need A LOT of cannons if he wants to delay the zerg expo significantly (which means fewer cannons at home) or sacrifice the contain for safer play at home. Either way there is a weakness the zerg can take advantage of, its hard to say that this build puts protoss significantly ahead if the zerg uses his head instead of giving up because the protoss has an earlier expo. The later zerg hatch sacrifices late game strength for early game strength that zerg has to take advantage of, force the protoss to build many cannons at his expo and pull probes to defend.
Unfortunately, kind sir, there will be no good timing for getting all these up. You need to get roach warren, baneling nest, lair and nydus worm off of one base and you think there is still a chance that a toss player won't have his expansion kicking in yet? That I just don't understand. Why this wall off is so strong is because it guarantees that: (1) the zerg will have to tech up to get out sneakily (unless he is somehow able to sneak a proxy hatch which presupposes that he has a drone outside and the protoss doesn't scout). Or (2) the zerg will have to spend time making units before hatch, which is very rare these days (Usually the zerg will have only a few lings before he starts getting an expansion) unless he opts for a 1 base all-in, which in this case will surely be scouted because that will have to break the wall down.
It's not like the toss will just see "oh, he's breaking down my wall. I'll wait for him to use all the units he made and let him walk all the way across the map before I start making units from my gateways and a stargate (if any) and cannons. I'll just continue my probe production while he's crawling up towards my base." Basically he's just matching your production of units. It's not like it's wasted because you spent money on army, he spends money on army. He's on 2 base, you're on one base. While you are right that roach/ling/bling does ok against gateway units or cannons, they don't do so well when it's gateway units AND cannons.
So even Mage36 cannot theorycraft what to do against zerg most obvious responce. And OP has no answers either. Its pretty frustrating to post any real constructive comments as this threath will fill up "omg just roach-ling rush ggggg" or similar "1base vs 2base ggggggg".
I give up. I have many times given pretty clear strategy vs this that works and no-one is not even reading it propeprly. I doubt OP is high master becouse the huge cap he had in his guide. Yeah this works if zerg panics.
On September 17 2011 02:10 Arir wrote: So even Mage36 cannot theorycraft what to do against zerg most obvious responce. And OP has no answers either. Its pretty frustrating to post any real constructive comments as this threath will fill up "omg just roach-ling rush ggggg" or similar "1base vs 2base ggggggg".
I give up. I have many times given pretty clear strategy vs this that works and no-one is not even reading it propeprly. I doubt OP is high master becouse the huge cap he had in his guide. Yeah this works if zerg panics.
Arirmind signing out from this topic.
Good sir, if you may be kind enough to discuss with me about your build as I would like to learn more about it. Yes, while I have not played against this, I do have some thoughts and questions but nothing too concrete because, again, I have not played against this.
What else do you get behind the drones you produce? Or do you just produce all drones with the two hatcheries? (found answer: yes) That is something I'm not too clear about with regards to your build. Will you be able to deal with a stargate? I mean I'm sure you will have at least two queens but what else will you have? (found answer: 2 queens, 2 hatch, 0 lings) What tech do you go for as you are breaking down the wall? Do you just have one spine to break down the wall? Approximately how long (in game time) before you can move your drones to distance mine and start your natural hatchery? Approximately how many drones do you get from this? (found the answer to this one: you said approximately 50.) Do you get a lair before you get your natural hatch?
I don't know. My initial assessment from your previous posts is that while the protoss gives 450 minerals "away for free", it seems like building so much drones without additional patches to mine from and having to wait to kill the wall may cost more than 450 minerals worth of lost mining time that the zerg would have had if he were mining from those additional mineral patches. Of course the 450 I say, I cannot quantify. It's just my guesstimate by you saying that you'll be leagues ahead of the protoss economy and that the protoss would have 30 probes by that time you break out.
What I am having a hard time reconciling is that assume a normal forge fast expand with no intention to wall off and the zerg does a 15 hatch and drones off two hatcheries while perhaps getting a third one somewhere along the way. Won't the zerg be in a better position with this? And that is hardly unbeatable.
Though suppose I'm wrong. Suppose that the protoss losses 450 minerals and the zerg doesn't lose 450 minerals worth of mining time from not having those extra patches to work on. I think we can agree, though, that you still lose a fair amount, which would not be far off from the 450 that can easily be quantified by the losses of the protoss. Wouldn't that mean that it would just be pretty much close to having the zerg do 15 hatch and not doing anything about it?
Maybe I do not understand your build completely, but that is what I got from re-reading your post about your build. I just want to get a better grasp of what you do. So if there are any flaws in my logic, please kindly point them out and let us have a healthy discussion about it. Thank you, kind sir.
Edit: In light of doing a bit more searching through your posts, regarding the fact that you have 50 drones on one base before you can start distance mining. That is a lot of drones but really once you hit 30, they're not doing you any good for a while. A long while, which I guess would be lost mining time. A lot of lost mining time. (which just one round of lost mining time from those 20 drones would already be 100 minerals not mined). And I'm pretty sure that majority of these drones will lose more than just one round of mining time. So I'd estimate that you still lose more than the 450 minerals that the protoss sacrificed.
Again, I am saying this in the most respectful way and I'm just asking your point of view and your arguments and why you think I'm wrong.
On September 14 2011 21:47 shoop wrote: I hate all these moral judgements flying around. If a strategy is successful, what business do you have telling people it's bad to use those strategies? Any strategy that wins is a good strategy, this is really just the "no rush 15 min" attitude in disguise.
@lcl: "What's the point in having a build only for ladder?": any build is "only for ladder" if, like most people, you don't participate in tournaments. This is like saying "what is the point in singing only in the shower". Weird question.
@Saechiis: "flaunt your 80% winrate" suggests that the OP is a braggart. I can find no evidence of that. He could have written "this always wins", instead the OP tries to give a realistic assessment.
@schmutttt: "How is this new?" OP correctly points out he never claimed it was new.
@Sententia: "Why not become better and get there legitimately?" What kind of legitimacy are you talking about here?
There is always going to be variability in what kind of motivations people have for the game, how they like to behave and what kind of strategies they want to use and the reasons for doing so. It is ridiculous to expect everyone to stick to a narrow code of conduct in a game like this. I sure as hell will never subscribe to such a code. In fact, it would be horrible if some of you guys got your way and there would be a starcraft honour code: everyone would quickly become terribly vulnerable to cheese, leading to a more unstable metagame.
Although I understand that you get annoyed if you die to this guy's strat, the way to make it disappear is by preparing against it so that its success rate drops. Tl;dr: please stop complaining and deal with it. There is no moral flaw in the OP.
Good post. I like your "singing in the shower" analogy.
EPT
