On September 17 2011 11:04 Ghost131 wrote: Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
No offense, but you sound like a total douchebag between your BM, your comments, and your "lol the idiot didn't move his drone and so I lost to an idiot [who was smart enough to keep his drone on hold position to prevent me from coming back and trying to wall him in and do the only thing he could do to stop this]"
There's no strat to this, and like your video shows, it doesnt matter what build Zerg does, Zerg will autolose to this (I think 11 pool is the only timing taht works, earlier pools is lolautowinwalloff 6 pool fail, later pool is late). Zerg has to hold position, that's the only thing.
Which is fine. But if you think there's any strat to this that's ridiculous. It's just abusive against Zergs naive enough to not have hold position.
On September 17 2011 11:04 Ghost131 wrote: Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLMqWSwzeZw&feature=youtube_gdata Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
No offense, but you sound like a total douchebag between your BM, your comments, and your "lol the idiot didn't move his drone and so I lost to an idiot [who was smart enough to keep his drone on hold position to prevent me from coming back and trying to wall him in and do the only thing he could do to stop this]"
There's no strat to this, and like your video shows, it doesnt matter what build Zerg does, Zerg will autolose to this (I think 11 pool is the only timing taht works, earlier pools is lolautowinwalloff 6 pool fail, later pool is late). Zerg has to hold position, that's the only thing.
Which is fine. But if you think there's any strat to this that's ridiculous. It's just abusive against Zergs naive enough to not have hold position.
Lol I already said it was abusive if you actually read my message. Also, why are you so mad? Btw you have to set the drone on patrol.
On September 17 2011 11:04 Ghost131 wrote: Hey guys I just recently uploaded a video of this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLMqWSwzeZw&feature=youtube_gdata Unfortunately the zerg player ragequit before I had the time to transition. I've played many games with this abusive style and I find that the zerg player is almost always behind if the protoss player scouts and reacts accordingly and gets 6 gates up in time to defend an allin. Most zergs that I use this against usually tech to nydus and try to nydus my main. Once I kill the nydus easily with 5 probes they usually nydus out to expand somewhere while pressuring with roaches. I find that 6 gate blink with +2 into collosus and a 3rd rolls this as long as you can hold the early roach aggression with good cannons and forcefields. Additionally since his forces are spread thin dt harrassment is really good.
No offense, but you sound like a total douchebag between your BM, your comments, and your "lol the idiot didn't move his drone and so I lost to an idiot [who was smart enough to keep his drone on hold position to prevent me from coming back and trying to wall him in and do the only thing he could do to stop this]"
There's no strat to this, and like your video shows, it doesnt matter what build Zerg does, Zerg will autolose to this (I think 11 pool is the only timing taht works, earlier pools is lolautowinwalloff 6 pool fail, later pool is late). Zerg has to hold position, that's the only thing.
Which is fine. But if you think there's any strat to this that's ridiculous. It's just abusive against Zergs naive enough to not have hold position.
Lol I already said it was abusive if you actually read my message. Also, why are you so mad? Btw you have to set the drone on patrol.
im glad i made u happy, now im gonna make u sad by telling u how getting ladder pts is usefull. Once u get matched with someone better than u (pros) u will improve much faster than when ur matched with someone whos at ur lvl
and this build (unlike 7pool) has a followup, u dont win with just pylon block, u have to macro and adapt afterwards, so no. if u put a masters zerg vs a silver toss, silver would defo fuck this up
No, no, and no. You don't improve your boxing by jumping straight into the ring with Danny Green, you get your ass kicked and you limp home in defeat. You get better by competing against people marginally better than yourself so you have some points to start with to improve. There's so MANY things wrong with a silver level's play that it's essentially as easy to beat them as punching a baby in the face. It's not a build, it's placing 3 pylons at the bottom of the ramp on ladder maps. This thread and author makes me so angry.
can't go through every page so i'll ask here and come back later for an answer, what do you do vs a 1 base nydus?? in the past i've lost to 1 base nydus play (i'm high masters [WTF]) and doing something like this would seem to provoke it and leave you MORE vulnerable than what i was ( shakuras plateau Forge fast expand i did )
can't go through every page so i'll ask here and come back later for an answer, what do you do vs a 1 base nydus?? in the past i've lost to 1 base nydus play (i'm high masters [WTF]) and doing something like this would seem to provoke it and leave you MORE vulnerable than what i was ( shakuras plateau Forge fast expand i did )
i also dont see how this build stops the zerg from taking his 3rd with his scouting drone and then he has a natural that he can use to contain protoss on one base while teching to roaches or nydus...
this build like so many abusive builds is dependent on the fact that 80% of people (80% wr right?) will get tilted when facing it, and the other 20% keep their cool and win easily
Okay, so why doesn't the drone drill trick work? I'm just curious, sorry if its already been said.
EDIT: I'd also like to tell everyone that I just went into a VS AI game, and 14 probes (or drones I guess) kill a fully completed pylon in 32 seconds (ingame) using the drone drill trick. Please note that this pylon WAS part of a 3 pylon wall-in. A cannon warping in takes only 40 seconds. So also long as you see the pylon's going down, it doesn't seem that this is impossibly hard to hold off.
:3 Just my thoughts.
Also, a well-executed drone drill will do 35 damage. At least with 14 drones and in my minimal testing. Try it out for yourself .
However, a drone drill executed with SEVEN drones (read: half of 14) does 25 damage per drill. Can somebody with more time and better analytical skills test this further?
On September 17 2011 14:28 H2OSno wrote: Okay, so why doesn't the drone drill trick work? I'm just curious, sorry if its already been said.
EDIT: I'd also like to tell everyone that I just went into a VS AI game, and 14 probes (or drones I guess) kill a fully completed pylon in 32 seconds (ingame) using the drone drill trick. Please note that this pylon WAS part of a 3 pylon wall-in. A cannon warping in takes only 40 seconds. So also long as you see the pylon's going down, it doesn't seem that this is impossibly hard to hold off.
:3 Just my thoughts.
Also, a well-executed drone drill will do 35 damage. At least with 14 drones and in my minimal testing. Try it out for yourself .
However, a drone drill executed with SEVEN drones (read: half of 14) does 25 damage per drill. Can somebody with more time and better analytical skills test this further?
If14 drones takes 32 s to kill it. + 10 s to move to the wall and back to mining = 600 minerals lost from not mining.
Very true, but I think something strange about the AI in terms of worker stacking, and I don't believe drone drill damage increases arithmetically. I could be wrong though.
Yea this isn't anything new... Its just cheese + refinement (someone who just took a peice of cheese and then looked at how far it can go). I think protoss shouldn't even try walling in zergs or do any cannon rushes of any sort :| it is quite pathetic (especially with 11overpool)
But as far as this being a good cheese, its really only good if the zerg doesn't block/11overpool/7rr/6pool/dronerush
On September 17 2011 15:50 Kornholi0 wrote: Yea this isn't anything new... Its just cheese + refinement (someone who just took a peice of cheese and then looked at how far it can go). I think protoss shouldn't even try walling in zergs or do any cannon rushes of any sort :| it is quite pathetic (especially with 11overpool)
But as far as this being a good cheese, its really only good if the zerg doesn't block/11overpool/7rr/6pool/dronerush
....
I do not believe the OP suggested it was something new, merely something he had come up with independently as someone who does not watch much professional Starcraft 2. I am actually quite disappointed in the community's reaction to this thread, which is just meant to be an interesting little high-success build you can add into your ladder repertoire.
Let's be clear on a few things. I'm a high masters P as well, and I do a 3 pylon 1 cannon wall a lot and win with it a lot. Not every PvZ--that is bad--but every time 2 simple conditions are met:
I am playing on a map where FFE is my standard opener (tda, shakuras, nerazim, abyssal, sometimes shattered)
and
zerg goes hatch first.
Used against hatch first, is neither cheese nor "abusive"--it is normal. It is the protoss equivalent to a zerg all-inning a FFE attempt on Xel'Naga. This cannon rush is simply the proper response when you already went forge first and the zerg goes hatch first, end of story. If you are playing ZvP always patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp when you hatch first AND HAVE A 2ND READY TO REPLACE THE 1ST--I'll explain this in my write-up.
Here I'll explain my whole process, which I think is close to ideal, and answers a lot of the questions I've seen in this thread:
So I'm on a 4player map. I 9 scout after the nat pylon. If I scout him first, I go nexus first vs 14 pool (<12 pool or hatch first = drop forge). If I don't scout the zerg first, I build a forge on 13 AND 13 SCOUT THE OTHER DIRECTION WITH A 2ND PROBE. This keeps you safe from the classic 4player map blind 6/7/8 pool.
If the zerg went pool first anyway and I have my forge, I go nexus gateway cannon and play a normal macro game, leaving BOTH probes out to scout all-ins at specific times.
If the zerg went hatch first and has no drone patrol, I build the 3 pylon wall with the first probe that gets there (walling that probe IN his base for future scouting) and START PATROLLING 2 PROBES AT HOME. One probe is stopping him from hatch/evo blocking my natural, the other scouts for an in-base proxy hatch.
If he drone drills, the 2nd probe outside just reinforces and he loses 700 in mining time. I can also drop a high ground cannon in this case.
If the zerg drone patrols the bottom of his ramp, I attack his drone with my first probe to send it away (hiding the 2nd probe just out of sight) and use 1 or both probes to pylon wall asap. If it fails because the zerg responds correctly by pulling a 2nd drone to replace the first before I can wall, I make a nexus and play a standard game.
Okay so now the wall is up or I am playing standard. If the wall is up, BOTH probes now patrol EVERY EXPO on the map FOREVER. If he makes a hatch before breaking out, I make a pylon next to it and he has to cancel (start your cannon when the hatch is at 65% so you can cancel if you choose to after you see if he will cancel, although you can also let the cannon finish and use that as your 6gate proxy).
I make a nexus, double gas, and go either 4/5 gate stargate or 5/6 gate blink + obs, and have pylon spread to scout nydus AND patrol a drone in my main looking for nydus.
Zergs will "most often" roach bust down their main ramp AND take their natural AND attack your front with roaches AND nydus your main with lings at the same time. I think this is a pretty reasonable response and you simply have to take every precaution like I said and respond well and you will be safe. You will die here if you are greedy, careless, bad at watching your minimap, or some combination of the three. When you have a zerg walled in on 1 base it isn't a big deal to have 3 probes patrolling instead of mining--just do it.
What I think might be the best response, and I don't play zerg, is macro hatch the top of your ramp, spinecrawler break the wall, 1 base infestor into ling and double expand right when you break out and try to play as normally as possible.
With that said, the protoss is probably underprepared for a well executed multi-pronged all-in (so that might be a your best bet--again, with proper drone patrol you should never get walled in) OR is going to 2base timing you themselves (7 gate +2 attack, blink + obs) to exploit their period of economic advantage.
All in all, remember that hatch first ZvP is a nice advantage and you can't get mad at a P for trying to stop you with this any more than P can get mad at Z if you send 30 speedlings at our 1gate expo or FFE on Xel'naga. Greedy openers risk retaliation.
Finally, if you are doing a fast pool build like 11 pool 18 hatch and losing to this, you shouldn't be--you are ahead, so stop getting thrown off by a simple, 450 mineral wrench.
IF you want to improve your gamestyle and face better players. Don´t cheese, just dont do it. Wont make you better one bit...
Find a practice partner, go practice a few hours every day, smoothen out your gameplay. The argument "I cheese to face better players" is just invalid.
Play straight up, practice hard and you will rise on ladder. There are no shortcuts. Sooner or later you have to play those "pro" players and you will go lower and lower on ladder since you´re to bad of a macro player.
Otherwise cheese is good in tours... Oh wait, I forgot. You can´t actully do this cheese on tourmaps...
Or just put a drone at the bottom of your ramp like me and other Zerg players who hate losing to such skillless scrubs who obviously have no pride/dignity. Just my opinion people who do this kind of garbage are the lowest of the low, especially every game. Yea I'll lose some min to make sure toss scrubs can't steal a win off me. Lol I bet these players get a high sense of accomplishment when pulling this off lol.
Stuff like this and people like you really get me... You said you had a problem with the mu (which I fail to see how is even possible) so instead of learning to play the game to overcome your issues you use some retarded cheese. Not only that but you have the audacity to brag about it and make a guide....
On September 18 2011 00:38 Swwww wrote: Stuff like this and people like you really get me... You said you had a problem with the mu (which I fail to see how is even possible) so instead of learning to play the game to overcome your issues you use some retarded cheese. Not only that but you have the audacity to brag about it and make a guide....
I'm so sorry for you he's helping other players by teaching them something they might not know
My only issue with this thread is that its way too popular. Zergs have never been so aware of their ramp as they are right now, after everyone's read this =|
there's no way I can see this going down if zerg drone drills the second they see the blockoff happening. Maybe if they're dumb enough to let all three pylons finish, but I don't know. your 80% winrate must be a fluke vs really bad players or something, because the drone drill kills the pylon wall before the first cannon even starts building
EPT
.
