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On September 18 2011 09:38 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 09:33 mage36 wrote:On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Pool first stops this automatically.
Nydus beats this.
Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh. Kind of sad that after 14 pages worth of posts, people still post things that have been already addressed in the OP (1st and 3rd). While the 2nd one has been discussed, that is more forgivable if you don't really have time to go through all the comments. Except the fact that you're blind forging makes it silly, no? If it's a 4player map you may not even get to scout the Zerg in time, and then you're just behind on the gateway anyway if he's not going hatch first. Also... drone patrol >.>
yea. drone patrol works to be safe against this, in which case you play a normal game.
Not really wasted since you can FFE if there is an early pool or pool first as you built the forge on the low ground. If you scout him early, you can probably even get the nexus before forge. If you don't then you have a forge then either nexus after cannon or cannon after nexus, whichever seems better based on what the zerg is doing, which includes droning up, in which case you can nexus after the forge or if he's saving larva, you can put a cannon to be safe before you put your nexus down and perhaps your gate after to protect the cannon. Probes may be included to defend the cannon in the event of really early pool while it is warping in.
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ty but I like to win my games legitimately.
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I think that the real problem that this thread addresses is that Blizzard is stupid because their ladder map pool doesn't use tournament maps. Blizzard should make ladder a tool to be used practice for tournaments. If they changed Shattered Temple or Shakuras Plateau to the MLG versions, who is going to complain?
I play Terran (in other words I have the capability of abusing these maps, close spawns, bunker wall offs, ect.) but I don't want to because it takes all the fun out of the game. Whenever I spawn close positions, all I can think is "How hard would it be for Blizzard to just remove close spawns from this game?"
Blizzard needs to step up their map pool so that players playing at a high masters level (as the OP stated that he does) can play on MLG maps or even GSL maps to be able to prepare for play beyond the ladder. I'm just downright tired of having four horrible maps (Backwater Gulch, Nerazim Crypt, Searing Crater, and Abyssal Caverns) and even when you get lucky and don't play on one of those maps, you still wind up playing on Shattered Temple close spawns or other horribly imbalanced maps. It just doesn't make sense, but I guess that's Blizzard...
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Hey, cba reading this shit, but i would like to wish you dick in your ass for making this post, so now 50% of protoss players do this shit on ladder
Also i would like to say thanks to Blizzard for delivering astonish maps where "tactics"(?) like those are possible.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On September 18 2011 14:29 Narw wrote:
Hey, cba reading this shit, but i would like to wish you dick in your ass for making this post, so now 50% of protoss players do this shit on ladder
Also i would like to say thanks to Blizzard for delivering astonish maps where "tactics"(?) like those are possible.
oh to derank and do it all over again as protoss JUST for the sake of doing this to zergs...
but im too close to Master League. I want that star. I want it so bad I can taste it.
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On September 18 2011 15:06 Truedot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 14:29 Narw wrote:
Hey, cba reading this shit, but i would like to wish you dick in your ass for making this post, so now 50% of protoss players do this shit on ladder
Also i would like to say thanks to Blizzard for delivering astonish maps where "tactics"(?) like those are possible. oh to derank and do it all over again as protoss JUST for the sake of doing this to zergs... but im too close to Master League. I want that star. I want it so bad I can taste it.
I'm happy that your pursuit of meaningless virtuall rank stops you from doing this so amazing and refined build. Rly i am.
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On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Pool first stops this automatically.
Nydus beats this.
Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
No it doesn't. Unless you 11 pool, there is no pool that matters (early pool is all-in which is lol against FFE, later pool is late).
It's obnoxious how many people insist they do this to punish hatch first, but Zerg needs to hatch first (oh... what exactly does zerg have to 'punish' FFE?) and hatch first is not risky at all.
Secondly if Zerg went 14 pool or 14 gas, they are just as fucked if you do this to them than if they went hatch first. Stop acting like you only do this when you see a hatch first, because it's not a strategy it's an abusive mechanic that's obnoxious as hell.
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On September 18 2011 18:36 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Pool first stops this automatically.
Nydus beats this.
Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh. It's obnoxious how many people insist they do this to punish hatch first, but Zerg needs to hatch first (oh... what exactly does zerg have to 'punish' FFE?) and hatch first is not risky at all. Secondly if Zerg went 14 pool or 14 gas, they are just as fucked if you do this to them than if they went hatch first. Stop acting like you only do this when you see a hatch first, because it's not a strategy it's an abusive mechanic that's obnoxious as hell. Contradiction?
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If somebody on ladder is looking for this type of play, they can do an inbase hatch while drone drilling 1 of the pylons, then they can push with spine crawlers while droning up and still come out ahead. The amount of money to build all that stuff will be deemed useless once the spines break out and your down 950 minerals or so. forge150+3pylons300+cannon150+2morebuildings near pylondrill300+mining timeofprobe~novalue0-200.
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Contradiction?
No.... You're not listening. At all.
I'm saying if Protoss does a BOSS cannon rush, a vanilla cannon rush, or an abusive mechanic like 3 pylon wall in, you are just as fucked if you went pool first as you would be if you went hatch first, because zerglings won't be out in time spines won't be there in time, nothing will be out in time for it.
So you might as well hatch first, because there's no risk to hatch first. There is nothing that Protoss can do that would make pool first safer than hatch first. You could be fucked in the ass with this BS, but you'd autolose if you went pool first too.
So just patrol your drone on the bottom of the ramp and send one drone to follow the scout and park an overlord by your ramp and natural, until you scout P's base to confirm he didn't go forge first. If he did, be vigilant until pool pops.
If somebody on ladder is looking for this type of play, they can do an inbase hatch while drone drilling 1 of the pylons, then they can push with spine crawlers while droning up and still come out ahead. The amount of money to build all that stuff will be deemed useless once the spines break out and your down 950 minerals or so. forge150+3pylons300+cannon150+2morebuildings near pylondrill300+mining timeofprobe~novalue0-200.
No you won't. Otherwise why not just inbase hatch every ZvP, that way if they only FFE without doing a pylon wall in, you'll be even right? Better yet, you could expand and take your natural and hope protoss doesn't wall you in, and then it's just autowin right? No way to lose if you have not just 1 base, but 2 against a FFE right?
Zerg needs their 2 hatches to be even with 1 base protoss, much less 2, and to keep up with chrono. Protoss is only down 450 minerals for doing this, not 950, while Zerg is down by much more than 350 mineral's (hatch+drone) in cost as they'd much rather pay 350 minerals for an expansion than not. All in all, Protoss comes out much further ahead.
Protoss also makes the forge at home so they can safely grab a super fast nexus before gateway (this build called FFE). It's not like they wouldn't have made it.
And you can't put spines to break this, the time it takes for 1 creep tumor to spread over there, make a spine, and break all 3 pylons down is more than 2-3 minutes, giving protoss plenty of time to... I don't know, 4 gate you, or stargate rush you.
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On September 18 2011 11:18 xlava wrote:
ty but I like to win my games legitimately.
Well said, I have respect for this player lol..
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On September 18 2011 20:55 Belial88 wrote:No.... You're not listening. At all. I'm saying if Protoss does a BOSS cannon rush, a vanilla cannon rush, or an abusive mechanic like 3 pylon wall in, you are just as fucked if you went pool first as you would be if you went hatch first, because zerglings won't be out in time spines won't be there in time, nothing will be out in time for it. So you might as well hatch first, because there's no risk to hatch first. There is nothing that Protoss can do that would make pool first safer than hatch first. You could be fucked in the ass with this BS, but you'd autolose if you went pool first too. So just patrol your drone on the bottom of the ramp and send one drone to follow the scout and park an overlord by your ramp and natural, until you scout P's base to confirm he didn't go forge first. If he did, be vigilant until pool pops. Show nested quote +
If somebody on ladder is looking for this type of play, they can do an inbase hatch while drone drilling 1 of the pylons, then they can push with spine crawlers while droning up and still come out ahead. The amount of money to build all that stuff will be deemed useless once the spines break out and your down 950 minerals or so. forge150+3pylons300+cannon150+2morebuildings near pylondrill300+mining timeofprobe~novalue0-200.
No you won't. Otherwise why not just inbase hatch every ZvP, that way if they only FFE without doing a pylon wall in, you'll be even right? Better yet, you could expand and take your natural and hope protoss doesn't wall you in, and then it's just autowin right? No way to lose if you have not just 1 base, but 2 against a FFE right? Zerg needs their 2 hatches to be even with 1 base protoss, much less 2, and to keep up with chrono. Protoss is only down 450 minerals for doing this, not 950, while Zerg is down by much more than 350 mineral's (hatch+drone) in cost as they'd much rather pay 350 minerals for an expansion than not. All in all, Protoss comes out much further ahead. Protoss also makes the forge at home so they can safely grab a super fast nexus before gateway (this build called FFE). It's not like they wouldn't have made it. And you can't put spines to break this, the time it takes for 1 creep tumor to spread over there, make a spine, and break all 3 pylons down is more than 2-3 minutes, giving protoss plenty of time to... I don't know, 4 gate you, or stargate rush you.
So throw down a hatchery at your ramp instead of getting ling speed and a queen right away. Now you can continue droning and have 2 queens up on 3 hatches ready to all-in as soon as your natural finishes or take a 2rd expansion. His expansion will be up before yours, but you will have stronger production and economy once your natural finishes.
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On September 20 2011 08:36 HybridZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 11:18 xlava wrote:
ty but I like to win my games legitimately. Well said, I have respect for this player lol..
A legitimate win is one where you win without third party tools.
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On September 21 2011 00:23 branflakes14 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2011 08:36 HybridZ wrote:On September 18 2011 11:18 xlava wrote:
ty but I like to win my games legitimately. Well said, I have respect for this player lol.. A legitimate win is one where you win without third party tools.
Everyone's definition for legitimate win is different.
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As a protoss I employ this strategy every now and then..really depends on the map and the expand timing from the zerg.
The problem is that the zerg usually panics and his macro fails. Opponent can't seem to get out of the "Expand or die" mindset.
I'd say a cannon contain is a pretty compelling reason to do a nydus all-in. The worst possible response would be to use spines and queens to break down the wall. By the time the contain is broken toss will have been on 2 bases for a while.
It's even better if you managed to sneak out a drone and take a hidden natural.
Don't forget, Toss just sunk 450-600 minerals into the contain. At a minimum his natural will be delayed until 21-23 and his army won't really start materializing until the 11/12 minute mark.
If you can muster up a bust by the 9/10 minute mark, I think Zerg will be okay.
P.S - you don't have to Nydus into the main. A lot of times my cannon defense at my front will be much weaker because I simply don't see the point of building a ton of cannons right away. If I do look for a nydus it will be in my base..and if you nydus outside of my natural and bust my wall then I'm pretty much dead.
I've also seen some Zerg try for 1 base muta, but honestly 1-base muta is pathetically weak.
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So how exactly do you stop this apart from having a drone on patrol? Against a non-retarded toss that is, people are saying you need a drone outside and expand to another base. If the protoss has an IQ above 25, which I agree is quite rare if they do this tactic, he'll have 1 or 2 probes patrolling the other bases. Nydus is so risky as well, as they know its a very good posibility they can put their pylons to spot for it..
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my favorite part about this thread.
I know youll never be good!
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To anyone saying that its better to hatch 1st than pool first against this, may I point you back a few pages?
+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2011 04:27 brainpower wrote:
I'd just like to give a quick comparison of the protoss player's income vs a zergs during a contain like this. The maximum rate that 8 minerals can be mined at is ~13 minerals/second. Assuming the zerg went for pool before hatch, his pool should finish at around the 3 minute mark depending on whether he went gas or pool first. The zerg then has to wait 55 seconds before he can get out his queen and make a creep tumor. Assuming you need all of the creep tumors range to get the spine crawler in position (this will vary by map) it takes a creep tumor 86 seconds to get in range. During that time, the zerg has made an in base hatch, spine crawler, and 2nd queen. He then unborrows the spine crawler and moves it to attacking position, burrows it, and kills the pylon. It takes 12 seconds to burrow, and 35 seconds to kill the pylon.
In total the zerg is contained for just over 3 minutes from the time the pylons finish to the time the first pylon dies. During that time, he made only drones from his larva, so he essentially was fully saturated the entire time. A fully saturated base mines minerals at 13.6 minerals/second and gas at 3.8 gas/second.
Now lets look at the protoss view. Assuming he set up the pylons and cannon as soon as he had the money for it, and makes his nexus immediately after that, his nexus goes up roughly 45 seconds after the first pylon. With a 100 second build time, the nexus finishes at roughly the 5:45 mark, a good 20-30 seconds before the zerg can even start his natural hatch. During that time, the protoss has constant probe production. In 3 minutes, not counting chrono boosts, which are saved for warpgate and an upgrade, a protoss can make 11 probes+1 more when the natural finishes, and 18 from before he started the initial pylons, for a total of 30 probes.
For most of the time the zerg is contained, they both have the same income from 1 fully saturate base. Once the protoss's natural is finished, he has 20 seconds before the long range mining starts for the zerg, where he is gather minerals at 20 minerals/second, compared to the zerg's 13.5. Before the zerg can break out, the protoss makes 130 minerals more than the zerg from his natural before the wall breaks. Obviously, the rate of long range mining is going to be different on every map. However, I think it is reasonable that the zerg that has been pumping drones non-stop from 2 hatches can gather more than 6 mineral/second from long range mining.
This means that as soon as the zerg has broken through the wall, even though he doesn't have his hatch up, he is mining more than the protoss, and the protoss is in fact behind from the minerals spent on the wall in, and as soon as the zerg's natural hatch finishes, he will be DRASTICALLY behind, because the zerg has over 60 drones, while the protoss has around 36-40 depending on chrono boosts, got a really late gas compared to the zerg's double gas, and hasn't had to make any units for the first 6 minutes of the game other than drones and queens.
If the map requires 2 creep tumors to reach the wall in then it is better for the zerg to make his macro hatch close to the ramp as soon as the wall goes up. This is slightly slower than making a queen+creep tumor, but not especially significantly.
As you can see, a zerg with an in base hatch is NOT behind a protoss who has delayed his expo so significantly. The best way to deal with this contain is to start with a standard speedling expand. The pylons go down just before your pool finishes. Cut your zerglings and zergling speed (no need for them since they can't get out), make 2 queens, macro hatch, a spine to break you out, and take both your gas. Up to you whether you want to roach, ling Bling all in once you break out or get your lair, and saturate your expo instantly. Either one can do well, but most protoss think they are ahead in a macro game and play dumb, but will be ready for an all in.
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Just theory crafting here but has anyone ever tried canceling the hatch at the natural so you get your 300 mineral back, building the hatch at the top of your ramp then canceling it and building a spine crawler on left over creep. Then once your queen is out put down a creep tumor to save the spine crawler from dieing. This would get you a spine crawler up hitting the wall faster to break the contain and would cost less mineral then what the protoss sunk into the contain. Like i said i never tried it but kinda sounds like it might be an ok response.
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Just played a game where opponent P did this to me...
I went fast 15 hatch 14 pool, cancelled hatch at last second after I saw the pylon wall, build another hatch with my scouting drone. Opponent scouted this hidden expa and cannon rushed that aswell. As soon as my pool pops I planted a spine, and made a creep tumor and used the spine to kill the pylons. Since the protoss used so much minerals to rush my twice, I assembled a roach push and killed his expansion with it. He got voidrays and the game lasted for like 40minutes,after I was finally able to win it...
Seems kinda bs tactic and the only real response I've come up with is to fast expand with your scouting drone, which also messes up if opponent find the hatch, which they usually do. Also if the protoss has half a brain he will just send like 2 zealots to hack the hidden expo, not cannon rush twice.
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EPT
