|
On September 18 2011 00:56 Stropheum wrote:
there's no way I can see this going down if zerg drone drills the second they see the blockoff happening. Maybe if they're dumb enough to let all three pylons finish, but I don't know. your 80% winrate must be a fluke vs really bad players or something, because the drone drill kills the pylon wall before the first cannon even starts building
The OP talked about that. He just puts down gateways to block the drone drill. The amount of time the drones spend off the line is much worse than the gateways hes going to cancel anyway once the cannon is finished.
The way to beat this build is very simple: kill the wall with 1 spine crawler, make a macro hatch, and just make 50+ drones, and long distance mine once your spine+6-8 lings break you out.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2011 12:04 brainpower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote:
I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw? In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose. The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop. As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest. Show nested quote +Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw? This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch. Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option.  I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know. Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote:
Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground. Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him.
You made some solid points and I'll definitely try to test out some timings, but I was just wondering... most only do this against hatch first builds so did you factor in the fact that the zerg attempted a 15 hatch and while probably half way done, he was forced to cancel. I think at this point the zerg would already have started their spawning pool by then but may not have it up in time to prevent the cannon. At least that's how it works out in the games I play.
|
On September 18 2011 02:03 mage36 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2011 12:04 brainpower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote:
I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw? In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose. The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop. As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest. Show nested quote +Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw? This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch. Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option. I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know. Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote:
Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground. Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him. You made some solid points and I'll definitely try to test out some timings, but I was just wondering... most only do this against hatch first builds so did you factor in the fact that the zerg attempted a 15 hatch and while probably half way done, he was forced to cancel. I think at this point the zerg would already have started their spawning pool by then but may not have it up in time to prevent the cannon. At least that's how it works out in the games I play.
I'm sorry, I don't hatch first anymore on maps where you can get 3 pylon blocked. Its one thing for a protoss to wall you before you commit to a hatch. Then, he is just hoping you overreact, and waste money trying to bust out. When you hatch 1st, even if he went nexus 1st, he still has time to throw down the forge and block you. At that point, its no different than if he used zealot stalker pressure, or went all in on you when you tried to get your 3rd up. Its a response to the zerg trying to be greedy, and isn't cheesy at all.
|
On September 18 2011 02:23 brainpower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 02:03 mage36 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 17 2011 12:04 brainpower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 08:59 mage36 wrote:
I like this post. It opens up a whole lot of new things to discuss.
But I have a few questions. Wouldn't the toss player be using chrono boosts for probes? I'm sure I do. I mean I know I am completely safe from any Zerg strategy for a while so I know I can afford to get my warpgate a few seconds later and just spend CB on my nexus (this includes nydus worm). But perhaps at most, I would use one for the first air unit I build, but that's not a whole lot and comes a bit later. So I think the toss player will be able to get more probes out then you mentioned. Furthermore, while you did mentioned that the zerg will be ahead in workers, you did not take into account the time value of money, which is that money earned sooner is worth more than money earned later.
To add, I would also like to mention that you either have to (a) kill all 3 pylons before your drones can start distance mining or (b) use larva on lings to kill the cannon. Which either (a) wastes more time before you can start mining long distance or (b) lessens the drones you can get depending on how many you make.
Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw? In order: Your cyber core finishes at nearly 6 minutes, only shortly before the zerg breaks out and becomes a serious threat. Only zealots and cannons can't defend your natural if the zerg made a roach warren, pulls his drones and goes all in. Many zergs do this out of reflex because they feel they are super far behind without a natural. Once +1 attack finishes on your zealots, its a much more even fight, which is why it requires a chronoboost. Also, remember, that you only have 2-3 sentries, with 1 force field each. You NEED warpgate tech out ASAP to get the 4 extra units from transforming to warp gates. Your 1st voidray also is no help. It doesn't arrive until 7:45 at the earliest, around the time when warp gate tech finishes with chrono boosts. Without chronoing all 3 of those, a zerg all in WILL kill your cyber core, forge, and natural, and you lose. The time value of money works both ways in this situation. While its true the zerg gets fewer minerals than if the had taken his natural on time, he also has no reason to take drones off gas. In fact, he doesn't have any reason to get zergling speed until the wall is down, so he can get lair tech before speed if he chooses. Also, remember that it isn't as though the zerg NEEDS a massive income to power drones. I need to jump in a practice game and see how soon its possible to start a tech building and still build drones, but I can tell you that a player that likes to go mutas is in great shape to stop a 6 gate because of how late warpgate tech is started, and has an outstanding gas count. 3 hatches worth of mutas all at once is extremely difficult to stop. As for the kill pylons vs zerglings, the answer is obviously lings. I don't remember off hand how many lings it takes to kill a cannon, (I want to say 6) but remember that the zerg hasn't needed to make a single zergling all game up to this point, and has had 4 inject larvas on his main hatch, and 2 on his macro hatch which is up 80 seconds before the wall breaks. That's a whopping 40 larva he has to work with to make only overlords and drones. Since he is starting around 16 drones when the wall is made, he ends with roughly 50 drones to the protoss' 30 (thanks for bringing that to my attention, I forgot to factor in lost larva from overlords and buildings, so I thought it was closer to 60 drones). While his natural is building is EXACTLY the right time to make units so that he can finally get some map presence, take out any destructable rocks, and prepare to take his 3rd. Losing a few lings to a cannon is not going to hurt him in the slightest. Show nested quote +Furthermore, 3 minutes in game time takes quite a while to break out, despite you adding the word "just". What I am trying to get at is being behind on your expo for 3 minutes as opposed to the usual SOP in game of having your expo up earlier than the toss. Would you get gas, btw? This part made me sad to read because it means I did a poor job explaining why the zerg isn't behind on economy, which was the true goal of the post. First of all, the zerg's expo isn't behind by 3 minutes. Its behind by 2:15 because the 450 minerals of the wall in delay the protoss' expansion for 45 seconds. Secondly, 30 workers split between two bases only gather 6 more minerals/second than 30 workers all on 1 base. With long range mining, they are essentially even. There is only a very short window where the protoss is able to mine from his natural before the zerg has broken down the wall, and they are at even income. While this is certainly non-ideal, it comes at a time when the protoss is completely unable to apply pressure because of his late tech. As soon as the natural finishes, the zerg, who is far ahead of worker count takes a commanding income lead, and is in a good position to take a 3rd and expand that lead because of his early gas and high production ability from an early macro hatch. Now I'm not trying to advocate an inbase hatch in a standard game. It has been tried, it was proven to be ineffective. However, it is only moderately inefficient. 450 minerals before even making a production building is massively wasteful, and makes the in base hatch a much more appealing option. I hope that was helpful. I know I can be a bit long winded, so if i was unclear with anything please let me know. Show nested quote +On September 17 2011 10:43 emc wrote:
Master zerg here, I've had this happen to me, it's the most frustrating thing in the world.
Best option is to take a macro hatch in your base so you can keep up your production. After your first queen pops, get a 2nd queen and drop a creep tumor with your first queens 25 energy. Get two spine crawlers and simply edge yourself near your ramp. This is how I deal with it, but if the protoss keeps reinforcing cannons it gets pretty damn hard.
Also with ramp vision changing, I think more roaches will be able to hit more cannons since they will have less vision up a ramp from the low ground. Roughly how many cannons are we talking about? At some point you just have to say "he just wasted 3 expos worth of minerals to keep me contained, I'm just going to nydus out and go kill him. You made some solid points and I'll definitely try to test out some timings, but I was just wondering... most only do this against hatch first builds so did you factor in the fact that the zerg attempted a 15 hatch and while probably half way done, he was forced to cancel. I think at this point the zerg would already have started their spawning pool by then but may not have it up in time to prevent the cannon. At least that's how it works out in the games I play. I'm sorry, I don't hatch first anymore on maps where you can get 3 pylon blocked. Its one thing for a protoss to wall you before you commit to a hatch. Then, he is just hoping you overreact, and waste money trying to bust out. When you hatch 1st, even if he went nexus 1st, he still has time to throw down the forge and block you. At that point, its no different than if he used zealot stalker pressure, or went all in on you when you tried to get your 3rd up. Its a response to the zerg trying to be greedy, and isn't cheesy at all.
Ok. so now I see that we really differ from the get go already when we are discussing. Maybe that is why we have several differences in opinion. I don't do this other than for hatch first builds. I feel that if he doesn't go hatch first, I feel more confident and even more so if he rushes me with roaches or lings or a combination of any tier 1.5 units off one base (scouting it of course). And yes, the nexus comes pretty quick. In fact, I sometimes decide not to go for the 3 pylon block anymore if I have scouted him early and haven't gotten my forge up yet. But if I already started my forge, I do tend to go for the ramp block to punish the quick greedy hatch and then put down a nexus ASAP. Thanks, bro! 
|
On September 18 2011 00:21 Galaxy_Zerg wrote:
You would have 80%+ winrate with this
Why? because it's not balanced in my opinion
No other race has a lack of antiair and lack of tier1 units that are ranged
That's why it's a PvZ strat and that's it
If zerg wins the game after you succesfully doing this, you're terrible
Zerg should just leave, not waste their time trying to defend such bullshit, and go find another match when this happens
well yes, kind of? I don't like "tiers" but I would say that roaches are "tier1". And to say that you should leave and don't deal with this bullshit is a good reason to why it is succesfull. Atleast try to defend it. Also I, as I said in an earlier post, think the zerg in the replay handeled the situation fairly well. He was behind sure. But not in an unwinnable situation.
|
On September 16 2011 23:32 Xyik wrote:
The thing is roach / ling / baneling is very cost-effective against all gateway units as well as for sniping cannons, if the zerg plays smart and hits good timings most protoss won't be able to deal with it. Banelings are not cost effective for breaking this wall (and a good zerg player won't waste the resources trying it, the best way to deal with a contain is to kill the contain without losing any units aka vs safe roach / spine sniping up on cliffs or by avoiding the cannons all together with nydus). The point is toss will need A LOT of cannons if he wants to delay the zerg expo significantly (which means fewer cannons at home) or sacrifice the contain for safer play at home. Either way there is a weakness the zerg can take advantage of, its hard to say that this build puts protoss significantly ahead if the zerg uses his head instead of giving up because the protoss has an earlier expo. The later zerg hatch sacrifices late game strength for early game strength that zerg has to take advantage of, force the protoss to build many cannons at his expo and pull probes to defend.
The problem is toss players know that the only chance we have is an early attack and that obviously puts the Zerg player in a very bad position.
|
Patrol a drone at the bottom of your ramp if you go for a hatch first.
|
On September 17 2011 12:57 Medrea wrote:
Didn't Fiwifaki make a strategy post that is almost identical to this?
Indeed I did:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=226952
I have done lots of research with this build, and the bottom line is, you will lose to a one base hydra drop if you insist on expanding, which is why the 3 gate blink transition is the most ideal.
|
I think it was because you kept telling us to brake and what happens if the Zerg brakes, and it was really confusing, because most of us aren't playing inside cars.
|
5 baneling 1 ling bust is the most effecient way to bust through this and then counterattack the toss. But this is a pretty good opener.
|
this thing is very effective. delaying expo and u putting some expo and transistion to air then colosi= EZ win against zerg who has 1 base less than u. but u need to have constant scout btw due to nydus or proxy hatch by zerg lol or drop
|
On September 16 2011 04:49 maasai_ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2011 03:12 The Final Boss wrote:I still fail to see the point of this entire post: - This build is nothing new, it's been around forever. The only thing that's new in 12 months is building three pylons instead of two and then building gateways behind; neither of which are particularly new.
- This build doesn't even work in a tournament so it doesn't even make sense to learn this cheese to use in a BoX series.
- Because it's such an easy build to accomplish, it doesn't improve your mechanics whatsoever.
- Despite coming across as a "Help thread to P's who struggle vs Z," your build will not really make a person better at PvZ.
- This build is not fun to do or play against, and if you're taking out the fun aspect of a game AND you're not getting better at the game, then there really is no point in doing it.
- If your only motivation behind doing this build is so that you can infuriate others and get to be higher ranked, then you might as well just become a drop-hacker; you'll get wins easier and make people even angrier.
Overall, I just fail to see a point to your thread, and since you didn't respond to my last post (which I'm assuming was because it was very long), I've decided to condense those thoughts here in what you could call a TL;DR. So I actually want to hear what you think the point of this entire post is. I disagree with you and here's why... - The point of this build is that is does work on the ladder maps, so why not use it to gain an advantage? I've seen a few high ranked Korean Protoss favor this cheese over a standard cannon rush because of how effective it is for the cost of only 1 cannon and 3 pylons. It is a very effective cheese for the ladder.
- Name a cheese that isn't easy to accomplish? Most require very little skill because they're at the early stages of the game where there is little macro and focus can be on micro.
- If you understand the concepts of why this build is effective, it will make you better at PvZ.
- This build is incredibly fun to do and many PvZs I've had on the ladder as a result of using this cheese turn out to be incredibly silly, fun games. I personally enjoy FEing behind this cheese and 1-base Nydus roach/ling all-ins can be incredibly challenging to hold off if the Zerg employs his Nydus canal well. It teaches both the Zerg and myself very crucial crisis management tactics for situations that you don't often encounter in normal games but are, nonetheless, very useful skills to have.
- Comparing cheese to drop hacking? That's a slippery slope fallacy, my good sir.
Here's some problems with that. First off if you're investing 600+ minerals into shutting down your opponent's natural expansion, it's no longer an FE. What is the point of playing ladder games if you're not going to get any better or at the very least practice and become better at executing a build that you will use in some sort of tournament or BoX setting.
Knowing why this build is effective and why it works will allow you to understand PvZ when you're playing the first 5 minutes on ladder against a Zerg going Hatch First. That's a pretty specific scenario and once again it will not really help a Zerg get better. It's not a build that they'll ever have to expect to play against in a scenario that is not laddering and frankly it's just kind of stupid. It doesn't make you better at PvZ. It doesn't mean that you suddenly know all the timings that you'll have to encounter and when you finally meet a player who decides that since they're playing ladder and people do stupid builds like this all the time on ladder they put a patrol drone at the bottom of their ramp, suddenly the Protoss who you were helping "learn" PvZ has no clue what to do because they have no clue how to play PvZ.
And if you enjoy playing from a huge advantage against players that are really angry (any Zerg will tell you they hate this sort of build and do not enjoy playing against it), I feel like you have a serious problem. That's not fun, and neither is playing from behind. There is no way that this build will be fun unless you do something so stupid and idiotic that you somehow manage to even out the playing fields.
And I didn't compare cheesing to drop hacking. I said if you're going to do such a pointless and meaningless build than what on earth is the point of not drop hacking. You're doing something that will never improve your play and will infuriate your opponent just so that you can get virtual ladder points that mean nothing. Frankly, drop hacking fulfills every single criterion I just mentioned, and the only reason that it's worse really is that it breaks Blizzard's Terms of Service.
Plus, you completely neglected the first point I made, which is that your ENTIRE post is nothing that wasn't around and known about three months ago. What about your topic is new? The answer? Nothing.
|
I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays.
|
On September 18 2011 08:44 cltitran wrote:
I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays.
So true. Too often, people just say something like "This is a dirty strat! I would feel very hurt if this was done to me. It's just unfair!" Instead of "This is a very hard strat to deal with but with a good discussion about this strat, I can find out what my opponent protoss might follow up with, what other zergs have been trying against this and how I can win the next time I encounter this."
Edit: These strats are here so we (as a community here in TL) can help each other. This guide/strat is here for the zergs as much as it is here for the protoss if we just stop for one second and think about how each race should react to this and discuss about it. That is why I thank the zerg posters who have given me their usual follow up so I can hopefully prepare for those the next time I play.
It's not about Protoss TLers vs Zerg TLers. Sometimes people forget that we are a community trying to gain information on the game of SCII and SC:BW. The goal of this thread should be that if you're playing someone who didn't read this, then, as zerg, you found out several reactions which may help you do something unexpected against your opponent and you know the followups of the toss player. On the other hand, as protoss, you will expect several other followups that are less popular than the nydus worm and be able to prepare accordingly.
|
Ok its works 80% on the ladder maps but it works 0% times on tourney maps. One more useless build thread.
|
On September 18 2011 09:09 mage36 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 08:44 cltitran wrote:
I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays. So true. Too often, people just say something like "This is a dirty strat! I would feel very hurt if this was done to me. It's just unfair!" Instead of "This is a very hard strat to deal with but with a good discussion about this strat, I can find out what my opponent protoss might follow up with, what other zergs have been trying against this and how I can win the next time I encounter this."
There is a solution.
It is called depots at the ramp on tournament maps.
|
On September 18 2011 09:16 ktimekiller wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 09:09 mage36 wrote:On September 18 2011 08:44 cltitran wrote:
I feel like the OP is Zynga. Everyone hates them because their games don't even promote actual gameplay but you cant deny the fact that they are the multi million billion dollar company. You can hate all you want and continue making games the "right" way by investing millions in console Games hoping youll land at least one triple A title. Or you can accept that what they do works and use that knowledge for yourself. You dont need to be like them but know that there is a market in Facebook games!
Point is we should read the forums for knowledge. Personally I hope people pick up this strat . Its better to practice something simple like this strategy five times and master it then not know it at all. What happens in a boX you play someone but their late game is obviously better? the sooner you unplague your mind with the term cheese the sooner youll be better at the game. Look at the Koreans. I think John the translator explained in Korea the term cheese is not negative just a way to describe how someone plays. So true. Too often, people just say something like "This is a dirty strat! I would feel very hurt if this was done to me. It's just unfair!" Instead of "This is a very hard strat to deal with but with a good discussion about this strat, I can find out what my opponent protoss might follow up with, what other zergs have been trying against this and how I can win the next time I encounter this." There is a solution. It is called depots at the ramp on tournament maps.
Unfortunately, good sir, they don't have this on the ladder. So for now the solution would be preventing it with 1 drone patrolling at the bottom of the ramp or the good number of reactions that other zerg players have posted.
Edit: I also don't get when people say this doesn't work on tournament maps. I'm not saying it does. What I'm saying is that, yes it doesn't work, but not everyone of us competes in tournaments and almost all of us play on the ladder. If you were a zerg player, wouldn't you want to at least know some successful reactions of other zerg players when they encountered this on ladder? Even if you don't practice it, at least you have that in the back of your head. It's not like "Oh, it doesn't work on tourney maps and I can just tell my protoss opponent that I'll go hatch first and not to do this against me in ladder."
|
Pool first stops this automatically.
Nydus beats this.
Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
|
On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Pool first stops this automatically.
Nydus beats this.
Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh.
Kind of sad that after 14 pages worth of posts, people still post things that have been already addressed in the OP (1st and 3rd). While the 2nd one has been discussed, that is more forgivable if you don't really have time to go through all the comments.
|
On September 18 2011 09:33 mage36 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2011 09:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Pool first stops this automatically.
Nydus beats this.
Drone drill might beat this.
Once in a while you can pull it off... but 80% win rate? Meh. Kind of sad that after 14 pages worth of posts, people still post things that have been already addressed in the OP (1st and 3rd). While the 2nd one has been discussed, that is more forgivable if you don't really have time to go through all the comments.
Except the fact that you're blind forging makes it silly, no? If it's a 4player map you may not even get to scout the Zerg in time, and then you're just behind on the gateway anyway if he's not going hatch first.
Also... drone patrol >.>
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
