Nice guide! I'll try it.

One question though. Do you implement infestors in your play? If so, when?

Ultralisks are 'good' but can be kited quite well and are not very cost effective against mech in general and marines. You'll need infestors for it.

Also if you fail to kill them with ultras, do you tech switch to broodlords ever?

I'll go watch the replays to get more insight. Thanks!

aXa

France748 Posts

September 03 2011 15:52 GMT

#82

To prevent the marine running from the ultra, i use zergling. I sometimes use infestor, right before getting ultra if i fear a terran push might happen just before.

I don't like broodlord, viking counter them so easily, and they already have the infrastructure for them.

lorkac

United States2297 Posts

September 03 2011 16:13 GMT

#83

As a terran I normally make 2-4 Medivacs and switch to pure Viking production whether there are broods or not. I find that a mixture of vikings+medivacs helps vs Mutaflocks a lot. It also helps compensate for when there are lots of broodlords as well as land quickly once I notice that there are banelings threatening my marines. But most of all, I also like getting a flock of 4-5 vikings to hunt overlords on one side of the map while doing drops on the other side of the map while pushing with my main army.

What kills me? Ultralisks.

Touche on this guide my friend

prdks

Canada8 Posts

September 04 2011 03:30 GMT

#84

Love the guide, aXa. Keep up the good work.

GinDo

3327 Posts

September 04 2011 04:01 GMT

#85

I've been arguing to some of my Zerg friends about this, but they always ignored me because they didn't see Idra doing it.

I personally see most Zergs are playing to passive 1) Not harassing with mutas constantly 2) Not taking map control.

If you note in BW Zergs would engage in the middle of the map or near the opponents base, chipping at the Terran push.

crbox

Canada1180 Posts

September 04 2011 04:22 GMT

#86

Yes! yes!

You should definitely watch for those pesky marine drops!

Also, keep an eye on your minimap for nyduses

aXa

France748 Posts

September 04 2011 20:42 GMT

#87

Hi guys. I played further with this style and i have to agree on what you guys said. It is far better to go for overlord speed and burrow to delay expansion as much as possible. Some muta to deal with drops are still useful.

So i have some fun replays for today:

[url blocked]

Against mech. I turtle myself against BFH, then go for a very effective mass roach burrow

[url blocked]

This one is for fun. After holding a 3 rax pressure (lol) i go straight into ultra. Total no match

Enjoy

RobCorso

United States111 Posts

September 04 2011 21:13 GMT

#88

I have two problems with this build/way of playing.
1. Air
2. 1/1/1
Are you to say that you should scout and have tech ready (as tech for zerg is easy to tech switch). ?
You can have mutas and corruptors out to attack air, but wouldn't it be wiser to mass produce something other than zerglings when your small ling army dies?
Otherwise, Very nice guide, I might try it some time :D Definately recommending it to my friends who main only zerg

aXa

France748 Posts

September 07 2011 10:00 GMT

#89

[url blocked]

That's how you do it !

KangaRuthless

United States304 Posts

September 07 2011 13:00 GMT

#90

I went ahead and casted 4 of the games from the initial replay pack.

+ Show Spoiler +

+ Show Spoiler +

Game 4 is on the way. Hope you guys enjoy these!

I am new at casting so pardon the stuttering and repetition. Also, feedback and comments are welcome!

aXa

France748 Posts

September 07 2011 14:19 GMT

#91

Amazing job ! thank you so much !

About 3rd game, double spire was actually a mistake, so i decided to go double upgrade and brood lord indeed because of it. Ups ! Double roach warren was intentional though

I realized i've made a lot of progress since i uploaded this replays, it's great to see. I just can't wait to see the 4th one !

Stardroid

United Kingdom159 Posts

September 07 2011 16:54 GMT

#92

Hi aXa,

Great to see you agree about the burrow OLspeed discussion vs mutas! Those winged beasties need special commitment of their own and muta/ling is a poor way to consolidate this style imo...

I wonder if I can ask you whether you have tried going for an in-base hatch (at 14) before taking the natural? The extra larva is just what a zergling-centric style needs, and you can saturate your bases very quickly given the opportunity, and also make more lings quicker. Of course it delays your expand, but you're looking to get game control quickly rather than build a two-base economy quickly (the standard style). So what do you think?

Best
Stardroid
WFS

aXa

France748 Posts

September 07 2011 17:04 GMT

#93

A macro hatch before expand has really no point. As you can see in my replays i'm already going for a super early macro hatch. On Xel naga, i land it around 4:30, while my natural is only half way done. It is soon enough to deal with any early push, and up and running for mid game.
Usually, a macro hatch before expands means all in of one base.
My goal is indeed to take early control of the game, but it is also to saturate 2 base quickly. Actually, you must saturate your 2 base with 50 drone at least and THEN start the zergling production. It differs from "standard style", which is to get an earlier third, try to drone up some and then only make unit if needed.

Xanbatou

United States805 Posts

September 07 2011 17:50 GMT

#94

aXa, I've been having a bit of trouble vs helions. If I play a smart terran and they see how many zerglings I'm making, they will switch to full-on helion production. Zerglings cannot take 8+ blue flame helions, so what do you do? Do you go roaches and try for some burrow play? Get earlier infestors for fungal?

aXa

France748 Posts

September 07 2011 18:00 GMT

#95

Roach and burrow, against mech it's really powerful. Gonna show you a replay

[url blocked]

Xanbatou

United States805 Posts

September 07 2011 18:12 GMT

#96

On September 08 2011 03:00 aXa wrote:
Roach and burrow, against mech it's really powerful. Gonna show you a replay

Yeah, if I know they are going mech, sometimes I will go massive roach drop. That way all their tanks are useless, and they are bound to have a bunch since they are going mech.

The problem is, I've played a couple terrans that basically go marine helion. Helions basically rape all my zerglings, and the stimmed marines can rape all my roaches. So I am not sure what to do against that.

aXa

France748 Posts

September 07 2011 18:18 GMT

#97

A combination of roach/speedling should be strong enough to deal with hellion/marine. Some baneling are welcome if it goes wild.

Stardroid

United Kingdom159 Posts

September 07 2011 18:38 GMT

#98

Thanks for your reply aXa, I understand having a macro hatch is great and it's great that you have one in your BO. I think there might be a good point in letting your macro hatch actually finish first before planting your expansion, as it allows perhaps for extra defence. Planting the macro as early as you say seems like you've dumped 600 minerals in a reall short timeframe without any larva in play until your expansion completes. In an extreme situation you might have to sac the expansion before it finishes, then either have to wait for the macro hatch to finish or sac that one too. I'm told a small marine push can come at 5 mins is that right? Maybe I'm being pedantic about it, but I think that being able to drone from 2 hatches is possible whichever hatch you go for first, and the in-base one is safer. By the time you're fully saturated on one base you'll have had your expo up anyway, so there's really no harm...?

Best
Stardroid

Schnullerbacke13

Germany1199 Posts

September 07 2011 20:58 GMT

#99

On September 08 2011 03:38 Stardroid wrote:
Thanks for your reply aXa, I understand having a macro hatch is great and it's great that you have one in your BO. I think there might be a good point in letting your macro hatch actually finish first before planting your expansion, as it allows perhaps for extra defence. Planting the macro as early as you say seems like you've dumped 600 minerals in a reall short timeframe without any larva in play until your expansion completes. In an extreme situation you might have to sac the expansion before it finishes, then either have to wait for the macro hatch to finish or sac that one too. I'm told a small marine push can come at 5 mins is that right? Maybe I'm being pedantic about it, but I think that being able to drone from 2 hatches is possible whichever hatch you go for first, and the in-base one is safer. By the time you're fully saturated on one base you'll have had your expo up anyway, so there's really no harm...?

Best
Stardroid

i played that for some time 16 pool 15 macro hatch ~18 expansion hatch (round 4'00..4'30). you delay second queen to afford this. while this is a pretty robust build (you may even come back when losing nat), you will oversaturate your main because expansion is somewhat late. If you choose to play agressive early on its ok, since you anyway will build a bunch of lings, so no oversaturation happens. Anyway only do macro before exe if the expansion is blocked. However as my injects got better i ended up delaying the macrohatch up to 5'30..6'30. Still a good 2x2 build if you scout heavy rush play incoming (block choke with hatch + queen to fend of mass hellion).

Veriol

Czech Republic502 Posts

September 07 2011 22:18 GMT

#100

Hey axa, I just started to playing this no bane style and I just love zvt right now

). I feel like Im 100% more cost efficient with my muta/ling/infestor its just insane

. My practice partners Ive played 50/50 I just crush now unless they go marine/BFH and I dont scout that in time (but thaths mostly me beeing bad).
Also i feel like ling/infestor alone is best at beating this comp rather then roaches but that needs more games

.
The only thing Im little not sure about is the initial gas timing + how many gas you take i feel like i dont actually need 6 gas on 3 base coz i pump so much lings i keep floating my gas pretty high untill i get to T3.