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[G] aXa's ZvT: Let's start the agression

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-25 18:18:12
August 31 2011 15:26 GMT
#1
VODs Casted by KangaRuthless available at the bottom of OP !


Expect the unexpected

[image loading]

Introduction

Hi guy's, after making 2 ZvZ guides and 1 ZvP, i'm finally coming back with a new approach of ZvT. This time, we are not going to explore a revolutionary style like Zergling/baneling once was in ZvP, nor a tight and well-planned build like 9 pool still actually is.

It will be more some kind of brain-storming theory, mindset thorough the game and unit usage, the whole thing being of course sustained by replays.

I like to explain why i came up with a new strategy at the beginning of my guides. Most of them are definitely coming from anger (My clan-mates are calling me "The Angry Zerg") due to a specific match up.

ZvZ always been a frustrating match up because of the incredible number of all-in you can do before the 6 min mark and the whole baneling-speedling stuff. That's why i tried a build allowing me to go straight into mid game.

ZvP and deathball just drove me crazy and that's why i tried something else than Roach/hydra/corruptor.

As it comes for ZvT, it definitely comes not from anger, but from rage. Nothing makes me more angry than marines, and more recently, BFH.

This guide is insanely long. I suggest you to read it maybe in two or three times, but there is a lot of useful stuff amongst this lines. The thoughts process parts are maybe the most important one. Definitely more important than the build order itself ! Actually, like every build order, it contains 0 answer

Let's jump right into the next part, explaining why marines drive me insane and how it helped me to figure out new ways of approaching ZvT.


Thoughts process about Terran gameplay

+ Show Spoiler +

Why are marine so powerful

My major complaints about marines are always been the same: They are insanely cheap and fast/easy to produce while remaining cost efficient all game long, even more if you know how to micro them. They are so powerful than even the design counter (baneling) is not efficient anymore especially at higher level. They run really fast with stim, they tank really great with medivacs, and they have a stupid stupid dps. But their main strength is not amongst one of those.

They are a mineral dumping unit. What does this mean? It means that to build a terran core, you only need minerals, allowing you to spend your gas to tech quickly (really quickly) and then focus on the supporting unit (tanks, thors) or expanding because the need of a later gas grab.

I heard sometimes caster saying that marines are the "supporting unit" and tanks the "core" but it's actually the other way around. Tanks allow marines to survive from baneling, and then allow them to do their crazy output damage.

In conclusion, it's more about the fact they fit so well with timing and macro that makes marine so powerful, more than their specific abilities.

What about BFH ?

About BFH, they are mineral dump as well, but unlike the marine, they have a lower dps but a higher mobility, allowing them to completely deny map dominance for zerg (Zergling, creep, threats of runby). But still, their main strength is the mineral dump.

As i understand ZvT right now, marine is the way to go for a bio/tank army into mid game as a mineral dump, while BFH is the way to go for mech. Don't get me wrong, you'll see countless of terran going reactor-hellion opening then transitionning into tank/marine. But hellion are not BFH, if you know what i mean

About terran armies in a broad fashion

The more time you give them, the more efficient they will be: pre-emptive tanks and marines spread do wonders against Zerg. Keep that in mind, as it will be an important part of the thought process later.


Thought process about Zerg gameplay

+ Show Spoiler +
So, what does all of this leave us, our poor Zergs ?

Zergling/baneling/mutalisk: One mistake and die.

Marines heavy composition have led us (should i say misled us ?) to go for baneling and pray they will survive through siege tanks shells and then get some good hits (involving a non-splitted marine force). So basically, what does baneling play rely on?

In my opinion, mostly your opponent mistakes. If they do not target fire the baneling with tanks, if they do not split their marines, then maybe you'll be cost efficient.
You can of course include some micro-management and tactics (Attacking from different angles, move command your baneling) to improve the odds. But basically, the best micro for Zerg in the world won't beat the best terran micro.

Of course, baneling are going along with mutalisk and some zergling. The whole idea being that "IF banelings kill enough marines, my muta will be able to clean up the rest"

The weak link

I think most player ended their reflexion right here. I did it too for a very long time. The whole "Eureka" thing happened while playing 4v4 with friends. We were playing in "fun mode", aka making silly stuff like Rush BC off of one base, etc.

I decided for 5 games or so to go mass, mass baneling. I realized that even with a solid macro (like 3 to 5 bases saturated) i could NOT really go for more than 120 food of banelings. (But anyway, it is SO FUNNY, i actually destroyed a 200/200 roach army with that many banelings lol lol).

I realized that banelings are in fact SO expansive related to food-cost. One baneling cost pretty much 50 minerals and 25 gases for 0.5 food! It is an incredibly gas heavy unit. In comparison, a BC cost 33,33 minerals and 25 gases per 0.5 food. You do realize that BC are really gas heavy, right ?

But before jumping to any conclusions, let's talk a little bit more about Zerg meta game with the Zergling/baneling/muta composition.

Zergs sure love their home

In a general fashion, you guys all know that zerg is supposed to stay one base ahead of his opponent. Why is that? Mainly because zerg's armies are cost inefficient. Don't get me wrong, not crying to imbalance here. Zerg is supposed to have strength that other races do not have: Mobility and number.

In order to remain cost efficient, Zerg has to outnumber Terran. That's why you'll see Zerg delaying and delaying the engagement until they get to the critical mass required to crush the push in a cost-efficient way.

As a result, zerg gives up mobility. Of course they can try to run around with mutas, even zerglings. But basically you'll see them stay at home, morphing as many baneling as possible and then roll over terran, or at least try to.

Remember when i was talking about Terran being more and more efficient the longer the time you give them in order to polish their push? Oh oh. You guys realize now that delaying is maybe a double-edged sword.

Giving up our strength

It really bothers me. Is really zerg compelled to be the "defensive and reactionary race"? Why can i not be everywhere on the map as zerg is supposed to be? Why Terran are knocking at my gate and dropping everywhere, abusing the strange fact that we can not be in an aggressive stance ?

Of course we talked a lot about how strong terran is defensively. Buildings, tanks and bunkers make any frontal assault pledged to failure. So Zerg is bad at attack and defense. What does that leave us ? My answer in the next spoiler.


Banelings are terrible

+ Show Spoiler +

This is not the same strategy as ZenexLine

Ok let's be clear right now. We all saw ZenexLine in GSL making a pure ling/muta composition, using the gas saved from baneling to make a bigger muta flock.. However, i have a different usage of this non-baneling style and it can't really be compared to his. I don't plan to go for an early muta play, nore making an huge muta flock. I have better use for the extra gas.

Understanding the game design differently

I wanted no more to play like zerg's do, i.e. macroing on the edge, (getting as many workers and expand as possible) and making units at the last possible moment while delaying the push. I wanted to play like terran and protoss do: Going for a predetermined number of workers/expands, then crank up army and dictate the pace of the game from there.

In one word, i was looking for a mineral-dump unit, allowing me to be safe while teching, upgrading, expanding. Baneling are your worst enemy. They are gas heavy, bad off creep and long to train (24 + 20 sec). Zerg sure have a mineral dumping unit. Why could we not use it the same way as Terran?

Everyone as this point know i'm talking about zergling. But you are still wondering: how in the hell could zergling be possibly cost effective? Can i really stay alive with them? How? Why zergling?


Zerglings are better than marines...

+ Show Spoiler +

Maybe the issue is in our head

It looks like a bold statement isn't it? Let's go into most zerg's mindset about zergling. They know they are cheap and fast, but they can't forget the fact that they melt in direct fight.

I think it is so mainly because of the 2 rax pressure episode that people kept thinking that zergling are terrible against marine with some micro. And of course, even more terrible when tank are sieged. Or so they thought.

Zergling are actually incredibly good as long as they are is sufficient number. Note that sufficient is a relative word: if 50 zerglings can be enough to crush a push at 10 min mark, it will not be the case at 15 min and so on. I'll talk about specifics in the units usage spoiler.

Because of the fact that zerg is so focus on getting more drone and more expands, they can't be in the mindset of producing a fuck-ton of zerglings. First, because all their minerals go into it, second, because of the larvae production.

Solving larvae

Zergling are incredibly larvae expansive. As most zerg will see it as a drawback, i can't help but think this is incredibly well thought out by blizzard. Let's say i want to be able to stay alive with only zergling off two bases with good saturation.

You know you can't have only 2 hatch with 2 queen and get the job done. So you'll go for an early macro hatch and a third queen. I hear you scream from here. "Oh, what an investment!This could have been an expand and 3 more drone !"

Let's try to change our mindset: I just built a solid economy (aka larvae production) to go really safe into mid game. I can choose to produce a ton of zergling in no time, but if it happens i have a window to expand and drone, i have enough larvae to saturate it in one production cycle.

It's an addiction
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Of course, all of it depends on how well you fare with injects. Time to practice !

Making ourselves safe windows of time

For now, Zerg philosophy is "delay the army, expand early". I'd rather get my army early and expanding under the safety of this army. To be more specific, i'd rather drone just after killing the terran push than take risks, droning at the wrong time and barely defend the push or die to it.

Why are zergling able to perform so well in that matter? We already say they are cheap and quick to produce. They are also the only fast off-creep unit (mobility) and outnumber your opponent using a great surface area.

Do you know how i like my tank? Unsieged, with a lot of zergling all around them ! Zerg strength is not offense nor defense, like i said. Their strength is in the middle of the map, were there is no direct pressure at your economy.

Let's say i catch a terran army with zergling just outside his base. I kill a half of it and lose all my zerglings. Guess who has the time to reproduce an entire army before the half-terran army reach your base? Are you starting to understand?

Nice to meet you !
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Using and abusing zergling mobility

Zerglings are a delicate unit and need a lot of attention. Well used, they can be deadly.
The first thing to understand, is that mobility means nothing without knowledge. Before trying to outspeed your opponent, the first thing to do is to know where is army is and when it moves out. For that you'll need to grab xel naga's tower, and regrab them every single time your zergling die.

More, you'll need to set some sacrificial zerglings on attacks paths, in front of terran's base, to really have a good idea what's going on.

This being done, never let your zergling in one control group. Ideally, you should have 20 zergling ready to run-by when terran moves out, then your main army split in two equal numbers, in a region out of terran sight but ready to intercept the push somewhere open on the map.

About run-by, Some picture are worth thousand of words:

How dare you leave your base
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

A little bit spread out buddy
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The zergling magic goes very far. We talked a bit about terran strength at turtling. The major issue is, after cleaning a push with muta/ling/bling in a delayed fashion, you could not really strikes back, because another push is almost ready in terran's base.

With zergling, if for example you crush a push just outside his base and have a lot of zerglings left, just go right into their base and kill as much stuff as possible! 1 or 2 tank sieged won't stop you. You can choose to reinforce quickly with more zergling production cycle, or simply get more ahead. Games can really be over fast with zergling's help.

Dog food
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Zergling sure have a limit

I won't say that hellions (or by extend mech play) are a real issue for zergling. Mass BFH surely is though. If terran goes for the BFH mineral dump while doing other stuff, you got to switch and go for roaches. More on that later.

Map are the real issue with this strategy. There is not a lot of them, but some are terrible for zergling. Shakuras Plateau is one of them. In a broad fashion, every map with safe natural and very few paths of attack are just too strong for terran.

In a direct fight, upgraded zergling will fear 3-3 marines along medivac. At this point, you should however have something else than mass zergling to win battles
Don't forget to stay on top of your upgrade, melee and armor ofc.

Sieged tank are not really scary as long as the count is not insane. As i said, if 15 tank are sieged in front of your base and you still have only zergling, then you're doing something wrong.


...Because they fit so well with everything else
+ Show Spoiler +

Spending your gas

While your spending most of your mineral on zergling, you'll have gas saved up for more important thing than baneling. The first thing is to start upgrades early, even before your lair, then tech up as quickly as possible.

Did you ever wonder why zerg stayed so long on T2 with Muta/ling/baneling? Maybe because they didn't have any gas left for T3.

With the saved gas, you'll of course make some mutalisks (except against mech: go for roach instead) for map control, snipe, and of course to deny any excessive drop play. I try to not go over 15-20 muta. This thing are expansive and useless if terran knows how to build turrets !

But you'll first of all rush for T3. Do you see any particular reason why zerg should get T3 unit at 20-25min mark, while terran and protoss can get them out at 10/13 min ? I don't.

Brood or ultra?

Don't make the mistake of going for broodlords. They are slow, easily countered by vikings and don't fit well to that style.

Choose to make early ultras. 4 base is a good number to sustain them. 3 is also doable but risky. Ultra will do wonder along your cracklings, and will do even more with patch 1.4!

T3 Unit are turtling-breaker (or turtler-breaking ) Maybe you thought that broods were better at it than ultras. It is only a half-truth. With ultralisks, you'll have the possibility to choose where to break terran, as for broodlords, you'll have to go for the nearest expand because they are incredibly slow.

On Xel naga cavern for example, with brood you'll have of course to attack the gold, where the whole army stands, while with ultra, you'll be able to go for the natural because they are fast enough.


The actual build order

+ Show Spoiler +


On every map except Xel'naga

I consider every map except Xel'naga as safe map to go hatch first and expect reactor hellion build. Keep in mind, if you scout anything else, then the build order is not the same.

9/10 Overlord
13/18 Scouting drone
15/18 Hatchery
15/18 Extractor: Mine 100 gas for speed and pull drone off.
14/18 pool
16/18 Overlord
16/26: 2 Queens, 2 set of zergling
28/28: 2 spine crawler, 2 evolution chamber. 5 set of ling to be safe against hellion run by.
6:00: macro hatch, followed by 2 extra Queens (3 to injects, 1 for creep)
Then 2nd extractor, pull back 6 drone in gas. Start +1 melee +1 armor asap.
Then tech to lair.
T3 depends if you have 70 drone on 3-4 bases or not.

On Xel'naga

I actually don't remember playing a game without 2 rax on this one

9/10 Overlord
12/18: Scouting drone
14/18: Extractor: 100 gas for speed, then pull off drone.
14/18: Pool
16/18: Overlord, then Queen.
18/26: Make ling with all the larvae available, until the first injects pop include. (15 ling or so in total)
Plant your natural when your money allows it (usually, right after the 2 initial lings)
Then plant a macro hatch asap.
Make extra ling if needed (4 rax), otherwise, make drone.
Same following as the other maps.


Replays
+ Show Spoiler +

[url blocked]
7 replays pack fileserve
Additional replays:
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
Of course let me know if you have trouble to DL them. You'll see me crush terran going for mech or bio, slowly maturing the style one game after another. Enjoy !


VODs

Thanks to kangaruthless, we now have casted replay ! He is really doing a great job so definitely check out his youtube channel !
Game 1
+ Show Spoiler +

Game 2
+ Show Spoiler +

Game 3
+ Show Spoiler +

Game 4
+ Show Spoiler +

Game 5
+ Show Spoiler +

Game 6
+ Show Spoiler +



aXa vs RagequitTMO

Game 1
+ Show Spoiler +


Game 2
+ Show Spoiler +


Game 3
+ Show Spoiler +


Game 4
+ Show Spoiler +


Game 5
+ Show Spoiler +



Blog

http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=283121
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
August 31 2011 15:44 GMT
#2
Umm... I'm not able to download the replays? Can you check everything is correct with how you uploaded them? Maybe it's the computer I'm on... I'll switch in a second.

Anyway, I read through it, from the gist of it you're talking about skipping the time it takes to get a bane's nest, bane speed, morph banes, and *required creep spread* in exchange for more macro hatches, upgrades, and lots of lings?

It's interesting, I will say more after I watch the replays.
I love crazymoving
Sleight
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
2471 Posts
August 31 2011 15:48 GMT
#3
Wow! I have been fighting with a way to go an upgrade heavy style for WEEEEEKKS, trying to do Ling-Muta after watching Slush do it a few MLG's ago. But I could never get it to work because the Mutas always came too late for the 9:30 Marine-Tank push, even with Ling pressure. I recently switched to midgame Ling-Roach with some mid-game infestors

I'm glad someone has overcome the hurdle a lowly Master's player could not! Thanks so much!
One Love
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 31 2011 15:50 GMT
#4
I uploaded the replay on fileserve, but megaupload link works. You just have to wait. Tell me if its ok now.
-FoX
Profile Joined November 2010
United States479 Posts
August 31 2011 15:56 GMT
#5
Pure ling/muta user in GSL was ZeNEX Line (or Suhoshin). Good read by the way. I'll definitely give this a try.
Pippi
Profile Joined March 2011
Sweden540 Posts
August 31 2011 15:58 GMT
#6
I love ur guides! My ZvZ is really good now and I enjoy it now, really hated it before. Keep it up!
Toast and coffe
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
August 31 2011 16:05 GMT
#7
-Fox, Thx ! i edited my post.
Xadar
Profile Joined October 2010
497 Posts
August 31 2011 16:06 GMT
#8
Watching replays now, maybe ill give it a try.
Nice guide btw
Flonomenalz
Profile Joined May 2011
Nigeria3519 Posts
August 31 2011 16:08 GMT
#9
On September 01 2011 00:50 aXa wrote:
I uploaded the replay on fileserve, but megaupload link works. You just have to wait. Tell me if its ok now.

Ah it's working now, idk what was happening before.

Will post after I watch them all.
I love crazymoving
whoopingchow
Profile Joined June 2011
United States293 Posts
August 31 2011 16:19 GMT
#10
Fantastic guide. I play T and I always wonder why my Z opponents don't just mass lings and keep throwing them at me. I always hear it in VODs, how Zerg can just throw army after army away and eventually overwhelm Terran. Definitely a great idea, would love to try to figure out how to counter this. :D

Another thing about maps though. Terran can get a critical number of BFH (6-8) before Mutas come out. If you're planning to invest all your gas in upgrades and Mutas, then wouldn't your drone line be completely forfeit, if all you have are lings, spines, and queens?
ETisME
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
12838 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-31 16:33:44
August 31 2011 16:29 GMT
#11
Interesting. This actually goes well into how I play zerg, I almost only make batches of drones/units only, I rarely do any specific "make one unit now to be safe".
This is gonna fix my huge mineral pile seeing it has a really fast in base hatch
Would you recommend just getting as many ultras as possible or there should be a ratio that you like?
One thing I don't like about ultras are that they are really bad when there are too much of them
其疾如风,其徐如林,侵掠如火,不动如山,难知如阴,动如雷震。
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-31 17:12:43
August 31 2011 16:57 GMT
#12
NEver go for more than 5 ultra against tank marine. Use crackling to prevent marines running away from then. Against mech, 10 ultra can be good.

Against BFH, timing push Coca/July style with roaches, and broadly roaches to prevent them. But against any kind of hellion without blue flame, just overrun them with zergling.

In my replays, you'll see i wall off with 2 spine and 2 evo chamber. It is much needed.

By the way, muta are really delayed with this strategy: usually, i try to time them out with my 5 and 6th extractor . I don't like the idea of going muta on 4 gas only.
Catgroove
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden67 Posts
August 31 2011 17:25 GMT
#13
On September 01 2011 01:57 aXa wrote:
NEver go for more than 5 ultra against tank marine. Use crackling to prevent marines running away from then. Against mech, 10 ultra can be good.

Against BFH, timing push Coca/July style with roaches, and broadly roaches to prevent them. But against any kind of hellion without blue flame, just overrun them with zergling.

In my replays, you'll see i wall off with 2 spine and 2 evo chamber. It is much needed.

By the way, muta are really delayed with this strategy: usually, i try to time them out with my 5 and 6th extractor . I don't like the idea of going muta on 4 gas only.


Video of that timing push?
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-31 17:29:26
August 31 2011 17:29 GMT
#14
Watch July vs Ryun, it was played today. Coca played another game at MLG but i can't recall his opponent.

Here is a replay of mine

[url blocked]
deathserv
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States228 Posts
August 31 2011 17:41 GMT
#15
Thank you for the great write-up! I am looking forward to trying this. I have started to realize that Banelings are not very good recently, and my troubles against Terran have lessened somewhat.

Do you get Infestors at all or just save the gas for straight Tier 3? It seems like this build might have some trouble defending drops without at least several Infestors.
Crit
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Finland30 Posts
August 31 2011 17:51 GMT
#16
Awesome!

I've really been troubled by zvt lately because I find ling/bling/muta so cost inefficient. Not a big fan of massing infestors against marine/tank either.

I like the idea of dumping minerals into mass ling and the gas used on slightly faster tech and upgrades.

I just don't understand why a terran wouldn't start massing blue flame hellions when he realizes you're pretty much going for mass lings only before T3... takes like a half of a brain cell to figure that one out but no one in your replays seemed to realize it ? :D
aXa
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
France748 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-31 17:53:25
August 31 2011 17:51 GMT
#17
This build is quite okay against drop, as long as you send only a handful of zergling do deal with them (No need to send the entire army). You go for muta as well, so it's ok.

I go for some infestor, but just a few in order to "stay alive" during ultralisk production.

About BFH, of course some does. If they do i switch to roaches. But if terrans in my replay don't go for BFH, it's mainly because they had a plan and a style they are used to: Tank/marine. I guess they are not comfortable with BFH yet
Roghie
Profile Joined June 2011
Norway18 Posts
August 31 2011 17:59 GMT
#18
Interesting aproach. Definitley like it :-)
EvE Online Gamer.
Xanbatou
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States805 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-31 18:21:41
August 31 2011 18:15 GMT
#19
Oh aXa, I love your posts so much. I love both your ZvZ strategy and your ZvP strategy. I am skeptical about this one, but because I love your other two guides so much I am going to try it for a while. This guide doesn't seem to be quite as comprehensive though .

That being said, what exactly do you spend your gas on? Or do you save it for t3? I can't imagine there is much to spend your gas on with mass zerglings other than upgrades and you say you dont like going mutas on 4 gas. Do you get burrow to burrow your zerglings in strategic positions? Have you ever considered burrowing your entire army below where you expect him to walk?

I've actually done some tests with zerglings vs marines, and equivalent cost marines vs equivalent cost zerglings results in the zerglings losing no matter what you do if they stim. If they don't stim, you can win easily by unburrow zerglings directly below them. Did you know that if you do that, all the marines get split up and you get a full surround that way?

What do you do if the opponent sees what you are doing and doesnt make any tanks? Do you get banelings then? If they go mass marine medivac, I feel like you might have trouble against that without banelings, especially if he takes all his medivacs and drops right behind your mineral line. Mineral line = death to zerglings. Sorry about all the questions :S
InsaneZane
Profile Joined July 2011
United States4 Posts
August 31 2011 18:18 GMT
#20
Great guide i'll take a closer look at the build orders later but upgraded speedlings catching terrans army in the middle of the map seems much more cost effective then banelings. For the midgame a dozen mutas and some infestors seems like a smart transition into the late game, that's assuming speedlings haven't countered a push and gutted his natural. When patch 1.4 comes and I start using ultras its sweet that they benifet from the speedlings attack and defense upgrades.

Bfh may give me some trouble but with a few extra spines and the 1.4 nerf that won't be to big a problem. I'm concerned about drops behind the mineral lines where my speedlings will funneld to there doom but a small amount of mutas will help stop or atleast let me get ready to defend against drops.

Again great guide, glad to see that? zergs don't have to wait for the terran to be knocking on there front door before they can fight back.
You shouldn't be looking for ways to win, you should be looking for ways not to lose. -Day9
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